Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
It doesn't have to be better, just similar on a level playing field (once both are improved to legendary).
Does it make sense that the PVPers/crafters, etc should both have to raid to obtain items of a similar quality?
Originally posted by ImperialSun Oh man Crafting nerfed. Addon support nerfed. PvP progression nerfed. Group xp nerfed. Forced PvE Story questing to level up. Devs confirm they are no longer targetting mmorpg players OR elder scrolls players? And with nerfed pvp xp and forced pve questing they are clearly not targetting pvp / rvr players either. So who ARE they targetting with this ES mmorpg i wonder? And to think this forum said they are the best mmo devs ever a few hours ago. This is a joke...the games fucked. Its now just Elder Scrolls: The themepark Republic.
Dude, the game is in beta. It isn't F2P or B2P. Things that you see and experience in a beta MMO are going to change wildly as the release date comes. Is it really so groundbreaking that they are tweaking xp gains and the api during the beta stage?
Originally posted by ImperialSun Oh man Crafting nerfed. Addon support nerfed. PvP progression nerfed. Group xp nerfed. Forced PvE Story questing to level up. Devs confirm they are no longer targetting mmorpg players OR elder scrolls players? And with nerfed pvp xp and forced pve questing they are clearly not targetting pvp / rvr players either. So who ARE they targetting with this ES mmorpg i wonder? And to think this forum said they are the best mmo devs ever a few hours ago. This is a joke...the games fucked. Its now just Elder Scrolls: The themepark Republic.
Oh please.
You can level just fine wandering around, it just takes you longer. As far as I'm aware, hitting 50 V10 fast was not the purpose of the game. There is nothing "forced" about it.
Some of the crafted sets WERE pretty ridiculous. That needs fine tuning, which is what we are supposed to be doing, not whining.
Addon support needed nerfing. When you are getting to the area of "add on tells me what the other player is casting, how long it takes so I can interrupt it" or "add on tells me exactly when I should use my execute cause they crossed the hp threshold" something needs to change.
Originally posted by ImperialSun These arent tweaks...this is wholesale nerfing and slapping just about every type of gamer in the face that they were previously targetting.
i mean come on...a dev has said they are no longer targetting ES fans or mmorpg fans.
Now THATS one hell of an official statement 6 weeks from launch!!
Um, not really?
MMORPG fans, as seen on this very site, can waffle between deciding that any good end game NEEDS raids, or it needs instanced PvP or it NEEDS, etc, etc.
Elder Scrolls fans do the same.
If they've finally grown some balls and decided that they are NOT going to please everyone on both sides of then fence and just make their own damn game, then more power to them.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
Obviously you never played pre-NGE SWG, the game that had the widely accepted best crafting system of any MMO to date. In that game the crafters made the best gear and it added greatly to the immersion and social factors of the game. The best crafters were highly sought after.
Oh my god arataki is there ANYTHING you wont defend? No business can canvass two s0ecific groups for years then 6 weeks before live turn round and say fuck you were not making the game for you any more...its suicidal.
just how many fans do they want to alienate in one statement?
Honestly, this sounds like kneejerk reactions to a balance pass to me. These are all numbers on a spreadsheet and so if crafted items went from OP to crap in a patch, they can just as easily go back the other way towards a more balanced middle ground. Test servers are for testing. Doom and gloom isn't necessary.
Balancing crafted vs. dropped items is always going to be tricky and numbers are likely to be in flux on the run-up to launch. And even with crafted items having a major role, dropped gear should still be useful. With the variety of builds available in ESO, it's certainly possible dropped gear may be better for certain builds, while other builds may make better use of the flexibility provided by crafting.
Feedback is important, but 'the sky is falling!' isn't helpful to anyone. With the way he describes the pre-nerf version of traits they seem overpowered (almost free sprinting? +50-60% attack speed bypassing the need for resource use?) and it's entirely possible they just got overtuned in the latest patch in an attempt to reel things back in.
In any case, I doubt you're getting the whole story here, and this isn't likely to be the final set of numbers by launch.
This balance pass fundamentally changes the usefulness of crafting. I don't even agree that you can shrug it off as a balance pass. It matters a lot if crafted items are on equal terms, better or worse then loot. For people who like crafting anyway. It is the comparison with looted gear that matters. Not what the original numbers were before. Thats why you can't compare this to some balance pass for combat skills.
Also the change to how you can obtain character progression xp can be a potential gamebreaker for people. You quest or your character progress will be gimped. Exploration just became a lot less meaningfull thanks to this.
As for feedback. Sometimes the only meaningful thing is to say 'I won't play it like this!' aka 'the sky is falling!' Which simply means that some think it is a change for the worse. What is there more to say in such situation?
The interview with the crafting dev made me interested in ESO again. But what I read here in this thread just looks as if they are changing just the things that could make ESO kind of different. I don't think that is a good thing in nowadays market.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
Obviously you never played pre-NGE SWG, the game that had the widely accepted best crafting system of any MMO to date. In that game the crafters made the best gear and it added greatly to the immersion and social factors of the game. The best crafters were highly sought after.
SWG Pre-NGE did havegood crafters and Buff Medics....But Ultima Online Pre Trammel IMO hd the best Crafting...People would wait in line just like SWG to get that full Set of Black Plate armor that you couldent get anywhere Else...I miss UO...lol
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
Obviously you never played pre-NGE SWG, the game that had the widely accepted best crafting system of any MMO to date. In that game the crafters made the best gear and it added greatly to the immersion and social factors of the game. The best crafters were highly sought after.
I loved crafting in SWG too, but there is also a themeparky hybrid form. Where the best (crafted) items need looted ingredients or something along the likes of that. When devs try to cater both to crafters and players who think loot is more important. Also it stimulates trade.
I think having Crafters be able to Craft stuff better than loot drops and Raid Gear would work in an MMO....It was very successful with UO pre-Trammel...And it was successful with SWG pre NGE.......Games now dont give crafting enough credit for anything..Might as well not even start crafting with MMOs now.....I loved Crafting back in the late 80s and early 90s in MMOs...I would love to bring that back...
Perhaps they found the add on could be abused and too much cheating may result hence they curbed it. Understandable but they should allow for some parity between drops and crafted.
Like I said in the earlier thread, I was already beginning to have questions when I read the bit about unique enchantments in high-end drops.
I was thinking about it from an Enchanter's point of view mostly but this makes it sound like end game crafting for Clothiers, Blacksmiths and Woodworkers will mostly consist of deconstructing to get upgrade materials and upgrading from purple to gold...interesting.
So good or bad? Paul says stats will be better. Poster says the aren't. Paul says crated = always better. Poster says crating is worthless.
Tell us the truth please mr/miss eso mmorpg.com guru.
Wow, if all this is correct then it looks like they don't want people to max level in a matter of days. This is still beta and it's going to take a while to find balance even after the game launches. This is going to be interesting.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
This sounds like another very smart move to me. Games with the best crafted gear strongly encourage people to craft - and crafting is a shitty mini-game. Thus you end up with a shitty game.
Originally posted by ImperialSun Oh my god arataki is there ANYTHING you wont defend? No business can canvass two s0ecific groups for years then 6 weeks before live turn round and say fuck you were not making the game for you any more...its suicidal.
just how many fans do they want to alienate in one statement?
I happen to be the kind of person that doesn't scream that the sky is falling. Or quit a game when my 'class' is nerfed (QQ Restoring Spirit). Or yell, "IM CANCELING MY PREORDER!!! because I can't see additional information about the enemy player.
Do some of the changes suck? Yes. Do I think certain things were overnerfed? Yes. That's why I'm feed backing it and posting in the forums.
And probably not going Templar if the changes stay as it >.>
I was also one of those worrying that ZoS listening too much to a split community would end with a nebulous goal for the game, no real identiy and a kitchen sink syndrome. The statement was "reported" almost completely without context. If was defending the API change for example, and said guild leader brought up ES fans familiarity with mods and being able to change their game to suit them, or MMO fans being used to add ons raiding for them/helping them and then this statement was given....
Isn't third hand information grand?
In the end, we can all only make choices on play or don't play.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
Obviously you never played pre-NGE SWG, the game that had the widely accepted best crafting system of any MMO to date. In that game the crafters made the best gear and it added greatly to the immersion and social factors of the game. The best crafters were highly sought after.
SWG Pre-NGE did havegood crafters and Buff Medics....But Ultima Online Pre Trammel IMO hd the best Crafting...People would wait in line just like SWG to get that full Set of Black Plate armor that you couldent get anywhere Else...I miss UO...lol
SWG, knowing and going to the home planet of the best crafters was one of the best aspects of the game. Not to mention seeing how great their house/guild hall/store front looked.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Originally posted by GuyClinch This sounds like another very smart move to me. Games with the best crafted gear strongly encourage people to craft - and crafting is a shitty mini-game. Thus you end up with a shitty game.
I'm guessing you never played SWG or UO, oh and EVE?
Those games had crafting and it was in no way a mini game, hell with EVE the crafters make the goods that the other players buy/fly
If a game can attract and keep people who craft, it can do well from them as they don't like to abandon toons they've worked on for so long, or their shops etc .. If SWG was still going I'd have a crafter on that, wasn't the best but I did ok mainly sold to cities residents for a discount ;-)
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
What "raids"?.......what "endgame raid gear"?
ESO is almost at release, has there been any mention of this, anyone showing off these "raids" or "raid gear"? and if there is such a thing, is it any different than GW2's open world zerg fests, cause those are obviously very challenging and would be worthy of giving out "superior" gear...amiright?
Originally posted by Vannor Best way.. only way that makes sense.
I've never heard of a fantasy story where the heroes just go to the tanners after killing wolves for 10 hours to make epic equipment.
If you want to roleplay a crafter, I don't see why you'd rather do it in a game instead of in real life.
Because there are so many epic stories of 15 or more heroes beating a boss a few times in a row to get the shiny item then staying in middle of town to show their loot.Also please try reading The Iliad - the armor of Achilles was made by Hephaestus. If you want more things crafter made : a certain ring made in fires of Mount Doom, Glamdring, Dragnipur the sword of Anomader Rake in Malazan series....
Funny to read about the xp nerf, seems they copied other mmorpgs which also nerfed the xp suddenly before launch to hide the lack of content . The crafting nerf was to be expected, now they need to put the best items in a instance raid with item gating and the transformation from a rvr game to a item grind one will be complete.
Not really surprising - crafting in ESO requires zero skill and only time commitment to get the mats -if the best items in game were craftable then everyone endgame would be walking best gear.
I am glad that best gear will need to be earned, not crafted.
Like PvE gear is ever earned....
The terribads still get their loot just like the good ones. Grinding the same boss over n over for loot is just a repeat of standard business practices that has stagnant the genre.
The only "earned" gear is where you have a PvP system and have structured PvP rewards via ratings and such, but seems like that system is long dead.
And really PvE gear "earned" also requires only time to grind the boss out.
Like I said in the earlier thread, I was already beginning to have questions when I read the bit about unique enchantments in high-end drops.
I was thinking about it from an Enchanter's point of view mostly but this makes it sound like end game crafting for Clothiers, Blacksmiths and Woodworkers will mostly consist of deconstructing to get upgrade materials and upgrading from purple to gold...interesting.
So good or bad? Paul says stats will be better. Poster says the aren't. Paul says crated = always better. Poster says crating is worthless.
Tell us the truth please mr/miss eso mmorpg.com guru.
Lol. I don't know. Frankly I'm tired of discussing. I just want to get in there, play and find out for myself....3 weeks
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
It doesn't have to be better, just similar on a level playing field (once both are improved to legendary).
Does it make sense that the PVPers/crafters, etc should both have to raid to obtain items of a similar quality?
Dude, the game is in beta. It isn't F2P or B2P. Things that you see and experience in a beta MMO are going to change wildly as the release date comes. Is it really so groundbreaking that they are tweaking xp gains and the api during the beta stage?
Oh please.
You can level just fine wandering around, it just takes you longer. As far as I'm aware, hitting 50 V10 fast was not the purpose of the game. There is nothing "forced" about it.
Some of the crafted sets WERE pretty ridiculous. That needs fine tuning, which is what we are supposed to be doing, not whining.
Addon support needed nerfing. When you are getting to the area of "add on tells me what the other player is casting, how long it takes so I can interrupt it" or "add on tells me exactly when I should use my execute cause they crossed the hp threshold" something needs to change.
i mean come on...a dev has said they are no longer targetting ES fans or mmorpg fans.
Now THATS one hell of an official statement 6 weeks from launch!!
Um, not really?
MMORPG fans, as seen on this very site, can waffle between deciding that any good end game NEEDS raids, or it needs instanced PvP or it NEEDS, etc, etc.
Elder Scrolls fans do the same.
If they've finally grown some balls and decided that they are NOT going to please everyone on both sides of then fence and just make their own damn game, then more power to them.
Obviously you never played pre-NGE SWG, the game that had the widely accepted best crafting system of any MMO to date. In that game the crafters made the best gear and it added greatly to the immersion and social factors of the game. The best crafters were highly sought after.
just how many fans do they want to alienate in one statement?
This balance pass fundamentally changes the usefulness of crafting. I don't even agree that you can shrug it off as a balance pass. It matters a lot if crafted items are on equal terms, better or worse then loot. For people who like crafting anyway. It is the comparison with looted gear that matters. Not what the original numbers were before. Thats why you can't compare this to some balance pass for combat skills.
Also the change to how you can obtain character progression xp can be a potential gamebreaker for people. You quest or your character progress will be gimped. Exploration just became a lot less meaningfull thanks to this.
As for feedback. Sometimes the only meaningful thing is to say 'I won't play it like this!' aka 'the sky is falling!'
Which simply means that some think it is a change for the worse. What is there more to say in such situation?
The interview with the crafting dev made me interested in ESO again. But what I read here in this thread just looks as if they are changing just the things that could make ESO kind of different. I don't think that is a good thing in nowadays market.
SWG Pre-NGE did havegood crafters and Buff Medics....But Ultima Online Pre Trammel IMO hd the best Crafting...People would wait in line just like SWG to get that full Set of Black Plate armor that you couldent get anywhere Else...I miss UO...lol
They'll pay a huge price for -
* making it harder to get max level
* making it harder to get the best equipment
* nerfing OP crafted abiltiies like -100% sprint costs and attack speed that makes abilities near useless
* blocking add-ons (possible I guess)
I'm sure SWTOR has a lot in common with that
I loved crafting in SWG too, but there is also a themeparky hybrid form. Where the best (crafted) items need looted ingredients or something along the likes of that. When devs try to cater both to crafters and players who think loot is more important. Also it stimulates trade.
Perhaps they found the add on could be abused and too much cheating may result hence they curbed it. Understandable but they should allow for some parity between drops and crafted.
The game is a mmorpg .. If they aren't targeting mmorpg fans who the hell are they targeting and why did they make one?
So good or bad? Paul says stats will be better. Poster says the aren't. Paul says crated = always better. Poster says crating is worthless.
Tell us the truth please mr/miss eso mmorpg.com guru.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I happen to be the kind of person that doesn't scream that the sky is falling. Or quit a game when my 'class' is nerfed (QQ Restoring Spirit). Or yell, "IM CANCELING MY PREORDER!!! because I can't see additional information about the enemy player.
Do some of the changes suck? Yes. Do I think certain things were overnerfed? Yes. That's why I'm feed backing it and posting in the forums.
And probably not going Templar if the changes stay as it >.>
I was also one of those worrying that ZoS listening too much to a split community would end with a nebulous goal for the game, no real identiy and a kitchen sink syndrome. The statement was "reported" almost completely without context. If was defending the API change for example, and said guild leader brought up ES fans familiarity with mods and being able to change their game to suit them, or MMO fans being used to add ons raiding for them/helping them and then this statement was given....
Isn't third hand information grand?
In the end, we can all only make choices on play or don't play.
SWG, knowing and going to the home planet of the best crafters was one of the best aspects of the game. Not to mention seeing how great their house/guild hall/store front looked.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'm guessing you never played SWG or UO, oh and EVE?
Those games had crafting and it was in no way a mini game, hell with EVE the crafters make the goods that the other players buy/fly
If a game can attract and keep people who craft, it can do well from them as they don't like to abandon toons they've worked on for so long, or their shops etc .. If SWG was still going I'd have a crafter on that, wasn't the best but I did ok mainly sold to cities residents for a discount ;-)
What "raids"?.......what "endgame raid gear"?
ESO is almost at release, has there been any mention of this, anyone showing off these "raids" or "raid gear"? and if there is such a thing, is it any different than GW2's open world zerg fests, cause those are obviously very challenging and would be worthy of giving out "superior" gear...amiright?
Because there are so many epic stories of 15 or more heroes beating a boss a few times in a row to get the shiny item then staying in middle of town to show their loot.Also please try reading The Iliad - the armor of Achilles was made by Hephaestus. If you want more things crafter made : a certain ring made in fires of Mount Doom, Glamdring, Dragnipur the sword of Anomader Rake in Malazan series....
Funny to read about the xp nerf, seems they copied other mmorpgs which also nerfed the xp suddenly before launch to hide the lack of content . The crafting nerf was to be expected, now they need to put the best items in a instance raid with item gating and the transformation from a rvr game to a item grind one will be complete.
Like PvE gear is ever earned....
The terribads still get their loot just like the good ones. Grinding the same boss over n over for loot is just a repeat of standard business practices that has stagnant the genre.
The only "earned" gear is where you have a PvP system and have structured PvP rewards via ratings and such, but seems like that system is long dead.
And really PvE gear "earned" also requires only time to grind the boss out.
Lol. I don't know. Frankly I'm tired of discussing. I just want to get in there, play and find out for myself....3 weeks
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED