Given that the game is freely open to play every other weekend or so up until launch, it might be a good idea to actually play it rather than making assumptions.
I won't set foot in ESO, it has PvP. That's like adding machinery in the Shire and then claim Tolkien approved of it. That's like making J. C. Denton into Justin Bieber. That's like making the Pope into the Flying Nun.
Some things aren't just done.
Thanks for the laugh...claiming to not play a game without ever trying it out solely on one aspect of OPTIONAL playstyle is amusing, particularly when you've never tried the betas and know absolutely nothing about the game other than the dribble you read on message boards...
ESO is a dead branch of the TES evolutionary tree to me, as soon as they added PvP in it.
Originally posted by Tbau I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.
Its basically an admissions that their end game content is so bad that without making it about the exclsuive reward ppl would not enjoy ti so much. As a result they ruin crafting, ruin exploring and also ruin open world pvp for collecting resources.
Why bother making open world pvp so extensive only really to turn it into a large instance with a themepark world. It makes all the grind for pvpers seem less worthwhile when the world is less significant to collect resources, to protect resources, and be part of an player driven economy. Also they make crafting less important while not including an auction house, thats just errible just to make the reward for raiding have a more 'rewarding experience'.
They ruin so many aspects of their game just to reward pve/raids.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
That entire quote from GoldenTiger reads like a sulky rant brought on by the API changes. Someone's favourite toys got nerfed, and now they're pissed as hell and taking it out on the devs.
I see no evidence of mass resignations of closed beta testers. I see no furore on reddit about this issue. However, I do see clear evidence of certain "special interest groups" like the Tamriel Foundry members being very angry about things like the API "nerf".
If you've been anxiously waiting for a "shocking reveal" to fuel your drama cravings, you now have it. Enjoy the hyperbole. The more level-headed people in the community will wait and experience things for themselves before making judgements.
Originally posted by ImperialSun As they are these changes have turned into SWTOR. They will pay a huge price imo if they dont scrap them.
They'll pay a huge price for -
* making it harder to get max level
* making it harder to get the best equipment
* nerfing OP crafted abiltiies like -100% sprint costs and attack speed that makes abilities near useless
* blocking add-ons (possible I guess)
I'm sure SWTOR has a lot in common with that
Harder? Lol ok...
yes Cougan, PvP players will HATE the fact the co rewards they get for doing what they love best have been gimped, just like in SWTOR.
Yes Cougan, PvP players will HATE being FORCED to play through hours and hours of linear story based PvE levelling content just so they hit max level and do what they love best, just like in SWTOR.
So yes, you are correct. ESO does have lots in common with SWTOR in that regard.
In fact in SWTOR the PvP community hated those things so much most Competetive PvPers left and now PvP is all but dead in SWTOR. That is bad enough in a story based PvE game like SWTOR but will affect oh I don't know, say a PvP focused AvA game a lot more.
ZOS should be appealing to the PVP community not alienating them being as you know, PvP IS the endgame in ESO.
oh wait I forgot, ZOS have now confirmed they are not even targeting MMORPG players or ES players any longer.....that was brilliant marketing right there....
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
Every MMORPG since SWG has had a terribly weak and shallow crafting system when compared to SWGs crafting system.
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down.
I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?
The reason they have made these changes to xp for players when grouped and pvpers across the board is because just six weeks from launch they have realised they don't have enough content and the content they do have will only last players a very short while, then they will leave.
this is a pure panic move, shit we have no content, players will max in like 2 weeks...too near release to address the issue in a professional manner so let's just nerf their Xp and crank up the grind to keep them playing longer...
Originally posted by Tbau I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.
I guess your memories are not really right.
In the beginning in DAoC the Epic Quest Armor + some Drops (like Legion) was the best available. Just with the Expansion Shrouded Island and introduction of Echanting of Gear(or whatever the actual name was) crafted gear, and crafted sets was the norm, because withit you could come extremely close to the cap(stat, resistance and so on).
So no.. it wasn't like that in DAoC.. however almost every DAoC veteran will agree that after SI was the best state of DAoC and crafting.. as crafted item were the norm(not necessary the best in any single case, Sidi DRops were still valuable to complement your crafted set).
And yes, i would like if TESO would be something similar to DAoC after SI. We will see how it turns out in the long run.. because it is 100% clear that there will more than enough balance changing after release.. and we will see how it will settle in the future.
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down.
I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?
i think we all know the answer to that lol
Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,
First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.
But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.
SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.
So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.
All they had to do is make drop rates extremely rare and with hidden agenda,that way players usually would not want to spend weeks/months/years killing the same boss for one item.Also to better add realism to games,you should NOT be able to kill the same Boss more than once,so you only get one shot at that drop item from that Boss.It really looks dumb in games when you supposedly killed that Boss but he is right back there in the same place 20 minutes later.
The REAL problem is that this game and every other are just so one dimensional it is making mmorpg's near obsolete.That problem is that these games are nothing more than gear grinds/progression,NO other reason to play.Yes we hear it all the time,FUN FUN,i call BS on that because players are playing every game the exact same way.
This is extremely lame game development,these devs need to come up with some other reason to get players to play.The main linear questing every game offers is nothing more than a single player design,something i have been saying about these games for years.That makes all these games single player games with internet attached with co op play to raid dungeons.
IMO it really is pretty sad that not one dev can come up with FUN as the reason to login instead of repeating grinds to gain levels and gear.I have a really hard time believing that some Warrior in 1592 would set out on a quest to kill 10 bears or repeat grind killing the same creature over and over for a drop item.This is why mmorpg design development has NOTHING todo with realistic Role playing and because of the actual game play also has VERY little to do with the MMO aspect as well,other than of course internet and co-op play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@Phry .. who told you crafters had gone after the NGE, sure it sucked what they did but I still had my crafter, was in a city. I think there were at least 3 or 4 of us crafting in just the small city/town lol
Ofcourse some had FANTASTIC house layouts you'd be totally envious of, i tried to make mine respectable but hell, some of the guys/gals they were experts at interior decorating ;-)
I'm glad I saw this thread before I went and pre-ordered.
So TESO is like so many other MMOs out there now huh?
Scratch one more game off my To-Do list.
The game has a lot of betas. You'd probably get a better feel for the game if you joined one rather than some how using this thread to get an overall view of the game.
Unless you are a crafter, there isn't really much in this thread that gives a big picture view of the game.
It's about the crafting.
I thought FF14 ARR was supposed to be HUGE on crafting. It had classes dedicated to crafting that were as equally painstaking to level (Harder actually) than the combat classes. Then when they released the 2nd raid, crafting was left out.
I went into a game believing there was finally an MMO that would keep crafting on par with PVE. It didn't.
I almost went into TESO with the same hope. I'm just glad I know now.
And as you can imagine, a beta weekend isn't going to show me what I'm looking for.
Oh, well yeh, if crafting is a big enough deal to you that you can base your entire decision on whether to play the game on some beta change, then yeh TESO probably isn't for you.
I do think it is better to go and play the game and find out for yourself though. I never really take the word of others on that sort of thing if I have the ability to freely find out for myself.
Your tone sounds very judgmental for my wanting an MMO with endgame competitive crafting.
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down.
I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?
i think we all know the answer to that lol
Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,
First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.
But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.
SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.
So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.
Originally posted by Haralin For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.
Well but is had to be balanced How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill?
If they are really going down this road, and making crafting on par with looting I just cancell my preorder. How freaking lame is that? If people don't wanna craft, they should turn to crafters and buy the equpiment they want. Cause during the time it takes crafters to gather recources etc to craft stuff with, those that don't wanna craft can do dungeons and quest and grind or whatever and get gold to buy the gear. If they going through with this I won't play it. And they had just won me over to preorder it. Morons.
Originally posted by Haralin For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.
Well but is had to be balanced How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill?
The best items in game should be crafted. Period.
who wants to run the same old PvE content over and over and over and over and over and over for a 1% chance at a single component drop split between 12 people.
that sort of thinly veiled gear treadmill is so 2010....where is the innovation I keep hearing about?
Crafting should play an important role in this game. I don't think players should be forced to craft to obtain BiS items but IDE love a system that tied crafting into the gearing process... Like epics being the rarest quality that drops and NEEDING crafters to upgrade that gear to legendaries.... That way the best base items would be earned through the combat/adventure portion of the game but only with the help of a crafter can those items be upgraded to BiS. Otherwise why craft? Just to make leveling easier or for an fresh 50 starter set?
Crafting needs to be an important, social aspect of the game. IMHO of coarse
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
Apparently there were games like that in the time before WoW.
There are still games like that, Age Of Wulin/Wushu being one of them.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
Originally posted by TbauI wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.
Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.
Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?
And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?
Comments
ESO is a dead branch of the TES evolutionary tree to me, as soon as they added PvP in it.
Clear enough?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Its basically an admissions that their end game content is so bad that without making it about the exclsuive reward ppl would not enjoy ti so much. As a result they ruin crafting, ruin exploring and also ruin open world pvp for collecting resources.
Why bother making open world pvp so extensive only really to turn it into a large instance with a themepark world. It makes all the grind for pvpers seem less worthwhile when the world is less significant to collect resources, to protect resources, and be part of an player driven economy. Also they make crafting less important while not including an auction house, thats just errible just to make the reward for raiding have a more 'rewarding experience'.
They ruin so many aspects of their game just to reward pve/raids.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
That entire quote from GoldenTiger reads like a sulky rant brought on by the API changes. Someone's favourite toys got nerfed, and now they're pissed as hell and taking it out on the devs.
I see no evidence of mass resignations of closed beta testers. I see no furore on reddit about this issue. However, I do see clear evidence of certain "special interest groups" like the Tamriel Foundry members being very angry about things like the API "nerf".
If you've been anxiously waiting for a "shocking reveal" to fuel your drama cravings, you now have it. Enjoy the hyperbole. The more level-headed people in the community will wait and experience things for themselves before making judgements.
good thing i did not preorder yet......one of the things that attracted me last beta was the crafting.......combat is kinda meh to me.
Guess i'll be playing wildstar where the combat is more to MY liking.
See if this helps.
http://www.tesoelite.com/2014/03/live-qa-paul-sage-compiled-answers/
Harder? Lol ok...
yes Cougan, PvP players will HATE the fact the co rewards they get for doing what they love best have been gimped, just like in SWTOR.
Yes Cougan, PvP players will HATE being FORCED to play through hours and hours of linear story based PvE levelling content just so they hit max level and do what they love best, just like in SWTOR.
So yes, you are correct. ESO does have lots in common with SWTOR in that regard.
In fact in SWTOR the PvP community hated those things so much most Competetive PvPers left and now PvP is all but dead in SWTOR. That is bad enough in a story based PvE game like SWTOR but will affect oh I don't know, say a PvP focused AvA game a lot more.
ZOS should be appealing to the PVP community not alienating them being as you know, PvP IS the endgame in ESO.
oh wait I forgot, ZOS have now confirmed they are not even targeting MMORPG players or ES players any longer.....that was brilliant marketing right there....
Every MMORPG since SWG has had a terribly weak and shallow crafting system when compared to SWGs crafting system.
/sigh....
I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?
i think we all know the answer to that lol
Nooooo... and here I thought Zenimax was THE 'Good Guy Developer' !
Sorry, but that one had to be
This....
Let's be honest here...
The reason they have made these changes to xp for players when grouped and pvpers across the board is because just six weeks from launch they have realised they don't have enough content and the content they do have will only last players a very short while, then they will leave.
this is a pure panic move, shit we have no content, players will max in like 2 weeks...too near release to address the issue in a professional manner so let's just nerf their Xp and crank up the grind to keep them playing longer...
I guess your memories are not really right.
In the beginning in DAoC the Epic Quest Armor + some Drops (like Legion) was the best available. Just with the Expansion Shrouded Island and introduction of Echanting of Gear(or whatever the actual name was) crafted gear, and crafted sets was the norm, because withit you could come extremely close to the cap(stat, resistance and so on).
So no.. it wasn't like that in DAoC.. however almost every DAoC veteran will agree that after SI was the best state of DAoC and crafting.. as crafted item were the norm(not necessary the best in any single case, Sidi DRops were still valuable to complement your crafted set).
And yes, i would like if TESO would be something similar to DAoC after SI. We will see how it turns out in the long run.. because it is 100% clear that there will more than enough balance changing after release.. and we will see how it will settle in the future.
Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,
First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.
But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.
SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.
So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.
All they had to do is make drop rates extremely rare and with hidden agenda,that way players usually would not want to spend weeks/months/years killing the same boss for one item.Also to better add realism to games,you should NOT be able to kill the same Boss more than once,so you only get one shot at that drop item from that Boss.It really looks dumb in games when you supposedly killed that Boss but he is right back there in the same place 20 minutes later.
The REAL problem is that this game and every other are just so one dimensional it is making mmorpg's near obsolete.That problem is that these games are nothing more than gear grinds/progression,NO other reason to play.Yes we hear it all the time,FUN FUN,i call BS on that because players are playing every game the exact same way.
This is extremely lame game development,these devs need to come up with some other reason to get players to play.The main linear questing every game offers is nothing more than a single player design,something i have been saying about these games for years.That makes all these games single player games with internet attached with co op play to raid dungeons.
IMO it really is pretty sad that not one dev can come up with FUN as the reason to login instead of repeating grinds to gain levels and gear.I have a really hard time believing that some Warrior in 1592 would set out on a quest to kill 10 bears or repeat grind killing the same creature over and over for a drop item.This is why mmorpg design development has NOTHING todo with realistic Role playing and because of the actual game play also has VERY little to do with the MMO aspect as well,other than of course internet and co-op play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@Phry .. who told you crafters had gone after the NGE, sure it sucked what they did but I still had my crafter, was in a city. I think there were at least 3 or 4 of us crafting in just the small city/town lol
Ofcourse some had FANTASTIC house layouts you'd be totally envious of, i tried to make mine respectable but hell, some of the guys/gals they were experts at interior decorating ;-)
Your tone sounds very judgmental for my wanting an MMO with endgame competitive crafting.
Could not agree more with this post
Well but is had to be balanced
How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill?
The best items in game should be crafted. Period.
who wants to run the same old PvE content over and over and over and over and over and over for a 1% chance at a single component drop split between 12 people.
that sort of thinly veiled gear treadmill is so 2010....where is the innovation I keep hearing about?
Crafting should play an important role in this game. I don't think players should be forced to craft to obtain BiS items but IDE love a system that tied crafting into the gearing process... Like epics being the rarest quality that drops and NEEDING crafters to upgrade that gear to legendaries.... That way the best base items would be earned through the combat/adventure portion of the game but only with the help of a crafter can those items be upgraded to BiS. Otherwise why craft? Just to make leveling easier or for an fresh 50 starter set?
Crafting needs to be an important, social aspect of the game. IMHO of coarse
There are still games like that, Age Of Wulin/Wushu being one of them.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.
Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?
And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?