Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
It's been this way for a long time. Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid. Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals. Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.
Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case. I bet the demographics just will not support your argument. If they did, then crafted gear would be the best. Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
It's been this way for a long time. Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid. Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals. Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.
Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case. I bet the demographics just will not support your argument. If they did, then crafted gear would be the best. Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.
Precisely.
ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.
i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.
I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.
Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.
Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?
And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?
It doesn't have to be just one way or the other. Loot can easily be tied into crafting. This has been done by several games.
As example : All gear is crafted, but can be customized with upgrades. The upgrades are looted and are needed to customize the crafted gear to efficiently support specific character builds. Players can add the upgrades themselves to gear, but crafters can then improve upon it.
Different crafting styles have to be looted (by reengineering weapons and armour or whatever) , which then give a blue print for the crafter to finish.
Just a simple example of how looting can tie in with crafting and creates more trade. Even trade windows can be made secure in a way that you never have to actually hand over your loot to some unknown crafter, and the crafter can still use it for an applying it to gear.
I also think that a large part of the community needs their loot fix, so yeah, completely crafting based might not be very popular for a themepark MMO. But there are many options to make crafting still very much needed. Instead of just some redundant hobby.
Originally posted by ImperialSun Precisely. ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP. i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.
Casuals are no MMORPG players? Get off your high horse please...
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
It's been this way for a long time. Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid. Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals. Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.
Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case. I bet the demographics just will not support your argument. If they did, then crafted gear would be the best. Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.
Precisely.
ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.
i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.
I had to laugh when I read that. You realise this argument you're making is based off what a guild leader says he was told internally... without the actual quote or whether it was in context. Nowhere have Zenimax said they are not making the game for MMO players or elder scrolls fans?
There is a game out there called GW2 that rewards you with the best gear for following a zerg of people you do not know and hitting auto attack for the best rewards.
Please just stay there and stop trying to make every game that comes out into "get the best gear for being able to log in".
Personally, i would have preferred that instead of whole items dropping and then getting crafted up to a higher rank, instead it was the key components that dropped and then allowed the crafter to use all those traits and visual things to make the final item. But /shrug. At the end of the day, as an adventurer, i still need to go hire a crafter to get the best item in game. As a crafter, i still get to make the best item in the game - even if it's based on a pre-existing dropped item.
Just seems like a bit of a waste of the whole trait research and racial style thing, if htose can't be applied to upgrading those top end items.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I think it would be a great idea to introduce rare items used for crafting in high end dungeons/raids. Raids would still be meaningful, and so would crafting. I am a huge fan of crafting meaning something and for people to stand out as the best of the best. Do I think it should be hard to get there? Absolutely!
I think leveling too quickly kills some games for me. There was a time when someone who had a full time job was as likely to reach max level first as someone who was in college. There was a time when questing never was enough to get to max level and you had to grind out mobs. I remember running around to "camp spots" and hoping they were not already taken. What is even stranger, is these are the games I sit back and think "Those were the good days."
I agree that the wording the developer used was poorly thought out. It is near impossible to cater to everyone individually, so maybe saying we are not trying to target ONLY mmorpgers, ONLY Elder Scrolls players, ONLY pvpers, but instead make a game that is fun for everyone, might have been better. I can only imagine how hard it is for developers to hear the constant complaining and bickering, and I assume everyone has a bad day every once in awhile.
If people are looking for immersion and realism, add ons are immersion and realism breaking tools. They are also an all or nothing. Either everyone has to have them to be viable or no one gets them and the playing field is equal. I played during a few beta weekends with no addons, and I had an awesome time in AvA. Maybe I should be thankful I never was spoiled with them to be upset with their removal.
Personally, i would have preferred that instead of whole items dropping and then getting crafted up to a higher rank, instead it was the key components that dropped and then allowed the crafter to use all those traits and visual things to make the final item. But /shrug. At the end of the day, as an adventurer, i still need to go hire a crafter to get the best item in game. As a crafter, i still get to make the best item in the game - even if it's based on a pre-existing dropped item.
Just seems like a bit of a waste of the whole trait research and racial style thing, if htose can't be applied to upgrading those top end items.
There is a big difference between enchanting/enhancing gear and crafting gear.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.
And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.
Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.
It's been this way for a long time. Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid. Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals. Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.
Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case. I bet the demographics just will not support your argument. If they did, then crafted gear would be the best. Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.
Precisely.
ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.
i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.
I had to laugh when I read that. You realise this argument you're making is based off what a guild leader says he was told internally... without the actual quote or whether it was in context. Nowhere have Zenimax said they are not making the game for MMO players or elder scrolls fans?
An official representative of the company made the statement to an internal closed beta test guild leader.
Then it's an official statement whether you like it or not.
I have been a staunch supporter of ESO on these forums. I normally don't cry the sky is falling at every little change, but I don't like many of the changes they have made this close to launch. I'm getting nervous that they may have only one more beta test before early launch of the game and I don't think that is enough time to get all the data they made need to fully test all these changes.
Crafting was one of the main selling points for me and that just went out the window. I could careless about the add-ons, but even slower xp gain I don't think I like that idea. I understand what they are trying to do, but that isn't the way to do it. I hate games where I have to grind just to get anywhere (which is the main reason I don't like eastern mmo's).
I have cancelled my pre-order and will wait for a month after ESO has been out to see where it stands. Had they made these changes a couple months ago and had a few betas to make adjustments and so on before release I would have been fine with it. With launch only weeks away, forger it.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
So yes, after seeing the quality of information coming out of ZOS and comparing it to the detailed, numbers driven, FEEDBACK that testers are giving, EVERYONE should be listening to the testers as opposed to the DEVS. Remember, the devs are trying to sell a game and make MONEY. The testers are volunteering their time to play a toon that is going to be deleted, just in order to allow for their feedback to be noted and implemented.
Not without some benefit to themselves. Their feedback is what they hope to mold the game the way they want it to be. Without being in PTS - how would those fansites have any page views, they get them because they have insider knowledge others can't get. Along with their youtube videos and Twitch casts. There is a reward for being in that PTS, it's looking wiser than everyone on the outside and being able to state - if you knew what I know, you would believe me. They have also had plenty of time to plan what they consider best, worst, and middle ground while the rest of the players have to start from scratch unless they take their word for it - if they decide to share their true thoughts and not something politically correct to say. PTS people are getting a personal boost for their guilds and networks other guilds aren't getting. They aren't testing without reward as you make it sound. I've seen some of the PTS testers not find a bug in 6 hours of play on Twitch. It didn't stop them from playing, clearly they are doing it because they get something else out of it too - like viewers. The only martyr testers are the ones not trying to up their views, follows, and likes who you don't hear from.
Volunteering....lol
Most of the people playing are playing to get a leg up on everyone else.
Originally posted by someforumguy It doesn't have to be just one way or the other.
It does.
In order to make loot exceptional, it has to be rare or hard to get as well as it needs to have some value of achievement. Loot as crafting component does not have it. It cannot serve as progression goal.
Crafters on the other hand need the exact opposite. They do not want RNG to stand in their supply chain as it severely hinders their performance and defeats the entire purpose of crafting effort - to supply the demand.
And then, there is a decay. It is next to impossible to make a player driven economy without a decay. Feature that isn't very popular.
In order to make loot exceptional, it has to be rare or hard to get as well as it needs to have some value of achievement. Loot as crafting component does not have it. It cannot serve as progression goal.
Crafters on the other hand need the exact opposite. They do not want RNG to stand in their supply chain as it severely hinders their performance and defeats the entire purpose of crafting effort - to supply the demand.
And then, there is a decay. It is next to impossible to make a player driven economy without a decay. Feature that isn't very popular.
Sorry you misunderstood my post then. Even in my simple example loot was still the only way to get top gear. It just involves a crafter. They need each other. The crafter needs the looter to loot and the looter needs the crafter to craft. How is that a bad thing in a MMORPG, which should he community driven? If you really don't like this concept then all you want is some lobby game maybe?
As for decay, I didn't even go into the crafter side. I only gave a small example of crafter/loot interaction. To assume that I ruled out decay just shows again that you didn't give my post any thought.
I didn't really expect a player driven economy. ESO is a themepark. Crafting in a mmorpg with mobs dropping gear doesn't mix. Add no decay to that mix, and you have the formula for WoWesk crafting, no matter how you do the interface.
That being said, didn't Paul JUST say crafted gear is numerically better? Was that an old interview?
Originally posted by someforumguy Sorry you misunderstood my post then. Even in my simple example loot was still the only way to get top gear. It just involves a crafter. They need each other. The crafter needs the looter to loot and the looter needs the crafter to craft. How is that a bad thing in a MMORPG, which should he community driven? If you really don't like this concept then all you want is some lobby game maybe?As for decay, I didn't even go into the crafter side. I only gave a small example of crafter/loot interaction. To assume that I ruled out decay just shows again that you didn't give my post any thought.
I understood you well.
Just I do not think that dropped "mithril ingot" isn't going to sufficiently satisfy casual MMO gamer, or to put it better - people will always prefer to have a mithril armor over mithril ingot for their raid reward. And that will be a preference of majority of your game populace.
Sure, you can got with concept of GW2 as you described it but it won't work as good as traditional gear loot. And most importantly, there is no reason to.
ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.
i assume the new target audience IS casuals then?
You don't get much more casual than Skyrim fans.
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Volunteering....lol
Most of the people playing are playing to get a leg up on everyone else.
No, no, no. Don't you get it? ZOS is automatically bad and wrong, no matter what they do, because it's a company, and companies are bad. The "testers" are automatically Right any time they criticize the company, about anything, because companies are bad and it's good to criticize what is bad.
Originally posted by botrytis
If you can't craft equal gear to drops, why have crafting in the game at all?
Now I can see ESO as a farming game where people will grind the same mobs to get the best gear. What a waste of time.
What a lot of people in this thread seem to be failing to recognize is that most players don't care if their gear is the absolute best thing in the entire game. For most players, there are only two questions; does my gear let me complete the content I want to participate in, and does my gear look the way I want it to look? If both of those things can be achieved through crafting, people in general really aren't going to give two shits if there is a drop that lets them be 0.05% more effective. Unless of course the cosmetic look they are going for is exclusive to that gear.
Originally posted by Gdemami
I understood you well.
Just I do not think that dropped "mithril ingot" isn't going to sufficiently satisfy casual MMO gamer, or to put it better - people will always prefer to have a mithril armor over mithril ingot for their raid reward. And that will be a preference of majority of your game populace.
Sure, you can got with concept of GW2 as you described it but it won't work as good as traditional gear loot. And most importantly, there is no reason to.
The majority (a substantial majority) don't raid, and therefore don't care about raid gear.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by CazNeerg The majority (a substantial majority) don't raid, and therefore don't care about raid gear.
Considering how there is way more low level dungeons these days and thus they are no longer just end game content, I do not think your statement is true.
Also, what people do once they hit level cap? Leave?
Comments
It's been this way for a long time. Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid. Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals. Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.
Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case. I bet the demographics just will not support your argument. If they did, then crafted gear would be the best. Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.
Precisely.
ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.
i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.
It doesn't have to be just one way or the other. Loot can easily be tied into crafting. This has been done by several games.
As example : All gear is crafted, but can be customized with upgrades. The upgrades are looted and are needed to customize the crafted gear to efficiently support specific character builds. Players can add the upgrades themselves to gear, but crafters can then improve upon it.
Different crafting styles have to be looted (by reengineering weapons and armour or whatever) , which then give a blue print for the crafter to finish.
Just a simple example of how looting can tie in with crafting and creates more trade. Even trade windows can be made secure in a way that you never have to actually hand over your loot to some unknown crafter, and the crafter can still use it for an applying it to gear.
I also think that a large part of the community needs their loot fix, so yeah, completely crafting based might not be very popular for a themepark MMO. But there are many options to make crafting still very much needed. Instead of just some redundant hobby.
Casuals are no MMORPG players? Get off your high horse please...
I had to laugh when I read that. You realise this argument you're making is based off what a guild leader says he was told internally... without the actual quote or whether it was in context. Nowhere have Zenimax said they are not making the game for MMO players or elder scrolls fans?
There is a game out there called GW2 that rewards you with the best gear for following a zerg of people you do not know and hitting auto attack for the best rewards.
Please just stay there and stop trying to make every game that comes out into "get the best gear for being able to log in".
The reality of the game is that:
The best gear will be looted, THEN crafted.
Personally, i would have preferred that instead of whole items dropping and then getting crafted up to a higher rank, instead it was the key components that dropped and then allowed the crafter to use all those traits and visual things to make the final item. But /shrug. At the end of the day, as an adventurer, i still need to go hire a crafter to get the best item in game. As a crafter, i still get to make the best item in the game - even if it's based on a pre-existing dropped item.
Just seems like a bit of a waste of the whole trait research and racial style thing, if htose can't be applied to upgrading those top end items.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I think it would be a great idea to introduce rare items used for crafting in high end dungeons/raids. Raids would still be meaningful, and so would crafting. I am a huge fan of crafting meaning something and for people to stand out as the best of the best. Do I think it should be hard to get there? Absolutely!
I think leveling too quickly kills some games for me. There was a time when someone who had a full time job was as likely to reach max level first as someone who was in college. There was a time when questing never was enough to get to max level and you had to grind out mobs. I remember running around to "camp spots" and hoping they were not already taken. What is even stranger, is these are the games I sit back and think "Those were the good days."
I agree that the wording the developer used was poorly thought out. It is near impossible to cater to everyone individually, so maybe saying we are not trying to target ONLY mmorpgers, ONLY Elder Scrolls players, ONLY pvpers, but instead make a game that is fun for everyone, might have been better. I can only imagine how hard it is for developers to hear the constant complaining and bickering, and I assume everyone has a bad day every once in awhile.
If people are looking for immersion and realism, add ons are immersion and realism breaking tools. They are also an all or nothing. Either everyone has to have them to be viable or no one gets them and the playing field is equal. I played during a few beta weekends with no addons, and I had an awesome time in AvA. Maybe I should be thankful I never was spoiled with them to be upset with their removal.
I didnt realise you had to be max level of V10 to pvp.
Maybe they can grind out the last few levels while actually in PVP? Since there are repeatable missions.
There is a big difference between enchanting/enhancing gear and crafting gear.
An official representative of the company made the statement to an internal closed beta test guild leader.
Then it's an official statement whether you like it or not.
I have been a staunch supporter of ESO on these forums. I normally don't cry the sky is falling at every little change, but I don't like many of the changes they have made this close to launch. I'm getting nervous that they may have only one more beta test before early launch of the game and I don't think that is enough time to get all the data they made need to fully test all these changes.
Crafting was one of the main selling points for me and that just went out the window. I could careless about the add-ons, but even slower xp gain I don't think I like that idea. I understand what they are trying to do, but that isn't the way to do it. I hate games where I have to grind just to get anywhere (which is the main reason I don't like eastern mmo's).
I have cancelled my pre-order and will wait for a month after ESO has been out to see where it stands. Had they made these changes a couple months ago and had a few betas to make adjustments and so on before release I would have been fine with it. With launch only weeks away, forger it.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Volunteering....lol
Most of the people playing are playing to get a leg up on everyone else.
It does.
In order to make loot exceptional, it has to be rare or hard to get as well as it needs to have some value of achievement. Loot as crafting component does not have it. It cannot serve as progression goal.
Crafters on the other hand need the exact opposite. They do not want RNG to stand in their supply chain as it severely hinders their performance and defeats the entire purpose of crafting effort - to supply the demand.
And then, there is a decay. It is next to impossible to make a player driven economy without a decay. Feature that isn't very popular.
Sorry you misunderstood my post then. Even in my simple example loot was still the only way to get top gear. It just involves a crafter. They need each other. The crafter needs the looter to loot and the looter needs the crafter to craft. How is that a bad thing in a MMORPG, which should he community driven? If you really don't like this concept then all you want is some lobby game maybe?
As for decay, I didn't even go into the crafter side. I only gave a small example of crafter/loot interaction. To assume that I ruled out decay just shows again that you didn't give my post any thought.
I didn't really expect a player driven economy. ESO is a themepark. Crafting in a mmorpg with mobs dropping gear doesn't mix. Add no decay to that mix, and you have the formula for WoWesk crafting, no matter how you do the interface.
That being said, didn't Paul JUST say crafted gear is numerically better? Was that an old interview?
If you can't craft equal gear to drops, why have crafting in the game at all?
Now I can see ESO as a farming game where people will grind the same mobs to get the best gear. What a waste of time.
I understood you well.
Just I do not think that dropped "mithril ingot" isn't going to sufficiently satisfy casual MMO gamer, or to put it better - people will always prefer to have a mithril armor over mithril ingot for their raid reward. And that will be a preference of majority of your game populace.
Sure, you can got with concept of GW2 as you described it but it won't work as good as traditional gear loot. And most importantly, there is no reason to.
You don't get much more casual than Skyrim fans.
No, no, no. Don't you get it? ZOS is automatically bad and wrong, no matter what they do, because it's a company, and companies are bad. The "testers" are automatically Right any time they criticize the company, about anything, because companies are bad and it's good to criticize what is bad.What a lot of people in this thread seem to be failing to recognize is that most players don't care if their gear is the absolute best thing in the entire game. For most players, there are only two questions; does my gear let me complete the content I want to participate in, and does my gear look the way I want it to look? If both of those things can be achieved through crafting, people in general really aren't going to give two shits if there is a drop that lets them be 0.05% more effective. Unless of course the cosmetic look they are going for is exclusive to that gear.
The majority (a substantial majority) don't raid, and therefore don't care about raid gear.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Considering how there is way more low level dungeons these days and thus they are no longer just end game content, I do not think your statement is true.
Also, what people do once they hit level cap? Leave?