Fundamental Differences Between PvE and PvP

TheLizardbones · March 2014

PvE vs PvP is a pretty common topic on these forums. Especially the inclusion or exclusion of OW PvP or FFA PvP. People on both sides of the conversation argue the merits of each and eventually start valuing the worth of players based on which style of game play they prefer. Sometimes there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the what each of these styles of game play encompasses and what player expectations might be. I thought it might be interesting to discuss how the two types of game play are the same and how they differ rather than arguing which is better.

I don't think this is a very complex discussion, but there are a lot of threads about it, so maybe I'm wrong.

Introduction

To start, player expectations about PvP itself fall into two different groups. The "PvE" players expect that PvP will be optional during game play. The players will also expect that game play will not be limited and the rewards will not be limited if the player chooses to not engage in PvP. With the idea that PvP is optional, many of these players will expect PvP content, and will expect rewards similar to rewards in PvE. In contrast to the "PvE" players, the "PvP" players will expect that PvP isn't optional during game play. The player opts in to PvP when they start playing the game. While PvP is expected to occur throughout game play, PvP players may expect a more complex rule set than players in PvE games with optional PvP. Players may turn "red", for killing too many other players or for killing any players, and in this red state sanctions may be taken against the player killer. In other games players have the option of taking out contracts on players or entities within the game itself may take action against player killers. At the same time, players will expect rewards for killing other players, including but not necessarily limited to whatever gear or supplies the killed player was carrying.

Encounters

The PvE focused players will expect encounters to be challenging, but at the same time not insurmountable. With time, additional gear and working out fight mechanics, the player will eventually triumph over even the highest level raid boss or world boss. This may require a significant investment of time and effort, possibly spread out over a month or more, but the idea that the player can eventually triumph is core to the game play. The PvP focused players will not expect all encounters to end successfully. A guild of players may never take another guild's keep or defeat them in battle. Players expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible.

Mix and Match

PvE players in PvE games will expect that PvE content and PvP content are two separate paths, almost two separate games within the game they are playing. This is a necessary division though, since the players will expect the PvP to be optional. PvP cannot be optional, and at the same time integral to aspects of game play. The PvP players in PvP games will expect the PvP content and PvE content to be integrated together. If players are fighting a boss, they will expect that other players can come and disrupt the fight. Crafting and economy in PvP games is often more complex and can play a central role in the PvP content of the game. It would not be accurate to say this is a function of the PvP centric game play though, because the crafting and economy stem as much from sandbox game play as it does PvP game play. It would be entirely possible to have a sandbox game with optional PvP where the crafting and economy play a central role in the PvE game play.

Conclusion

There are definitely differences in the two styles of game play. Players have different expectations and want different things. They aren't likely to enjoy each others' games. That doesn't mean there aren't players who enjoy both. Many of the people playing WoW are probably playing games like Rust or Mortal Online. There are probably just a small number of people who wish to prove that one style or the other is better. The truth is that they are just different, and some people prefer one, while some people prefer the other, and many people prefer both.

What about you? Have you thought about what a PvP player expects or what a PvE player expects? Do you think there are many PvE players in games like Mortal Online, playing the game without enjoying it in the hopes that one day it will change? What about PvP players playing WoW in the hopes that one day there will be a more complex crafting and economic system, all the while complaining about it one the forums?

sunandshadow · March 2014

Originally posted by lizardbones

Mix and Match

PvE players in PvE games will expect that PvE content and PvP content are two separate paths, almost two separate games within the game they are playing. This is a necessary division though, since the players will expect the PvP to be optional. PvP cannot be optional, and at the same time integral to aspects of game play.

I agree with pretty much all of the OP. I just wanted to add that some games attempt to integrate PvP into PvE by using fake PvP as a gateway to ease PvE players into PvP, or let them experience PvP in a limited, controlled, "safe" way. (Spectating also can provide this way of easing players in.)

Fake PvP means either pitting the player against an AI that happens to look like another player, or pitting the player against a recording of another player's previous actions. In multiplayer PvP minigames like races or poker there is often a mix of real players and AI players. In some arena PvP systems the game will supply an AI opponent if a human opponent is not available before the looking-for-opponent timer expires. In other arena PvP systems the player can set a toggle to only ever face AI opponents, effectively turning it into PvE.

Sephiroso · March 2014

Originally posted by lizardbones

To start, player expectations about PvP itself fall into two different groups. The "PvE" players expect that PvP will be optional during game play.

Wrong. You seem to think Players are only in two distinct groups but you are wrong. Most of the top raiding guilds do not play on PvE servers, they play on PvP servers. People who are competitive by nature do things they can compete in. This can be accomplished through PvP AND PvE which is what MANY do. They do both.

Encounters

The PvE focused players will expect encounters to be challenging, but at the same time not insurmountable. The PvP focused players will not expect all encounters to end successfully. A guild of players may never take another guild's keep or defeat them in battle. Players expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible.

Again wrong. You make it sound like PvP players will fight an impossible battle, they wouldn't. The average player, PvP or PvE would never fight a battle that they knowingly had 0% chance to win and get anything from it. PvP players go into PvP aiming to win, everyone(PvP and PvE) knows you can't win every battle but they go in to win. The only reason they would is if they got rewards even for losing. Also PvE players also expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible, its called RNG.

Mix and Match

Crafting and economy in PvP games is often more complex and can play a central role in the PvP content of the game.

Did you seriously just try to say crafting/economy is more complex in PvP games and play a central role in PvP content as opposed to PvE games? I mean I kind of already understood this undertone in your post that PvP players are better than PvE players but really? How does your mind come up with the fact that crafting and the economy is even better and ..more complex in a PvP game over a PvE game? Yes, an example of a bad raiding game(with crafting) will have the crafting gear completely inferior to raiding gear, thats an example of what not to do. A good raiding game(with crafting) like, oh i don't know WoW will make crafting definitively wanted and will be on par/better than raid gear. The economy...part I just don't get your thought process on that. If i had to guess it was cause player looting and you possibly losing everything but I don't know.

Conclusion
What about PvP players playing WoW in the hopes that one day there will be a more complex crafting and economic system, all the while complaining about it one the forums?
Lol...just...what?? PvP and PvE players both wish for a better crafting system, it isn't just PvP. Seriously what made you think this? And I still do not understand what your issue is with the economy.

nariusseldon · March 2014

Originally posted by lizardbones

There are definitely differences in the two styles of game play. Players have different expectations and want different things. They aren't likely to enjoy each others' games.

You don't really need a whole page to say this. It is pretty obvious. There are so many popular pvp only game, and mostly pve games, and successful games that separate the two.

In fact, there are very few, if any, examples of successful games that combine the two.

sunandshadow · March 2014

Originally posted by Sephiroso You make it sound like PvP players will fight an impossible battle, they wouldn't. The average player, PvP or PvE would never fight a battle that they knowingly had 0% chance to win and get anything from it. PvP players go into PvP aiming to win, everyone(PvP and PvE) knows you can't win every battle but they go in to win. The only reason they would is if they got rewards even for losing. Also PvE players also expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible, its called RNG.

I've personally watched PvP players have a great time jumping into a fight where they know they will die, they know they will not get a reward (in fact they will lose a small amount of money in ammo used or repair bills), but they are doing it for the social opportunity to see other players reactions to their actions, whether they are causing chaos, acting out a joke, or trolling.

Sephiroso · March 2014

Originally posted by sunandshadow

Originally posted by Sephiroso You make it sound like PvP players will fight an impossible battle, they wouldn't. The average player, PvP or PvE would never fight a battle that they knowingly had 0% chance to win and get anything from it. PvP players go into PvP aiming to win, everyone(PvP and PvE) knows you can't win every battle but they go in to win. The only reason they would is if they got rewards even for losing. Also PvE players also expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible, its called RNG.

I've personally watched PvP players have a great time jumping into a fight where they know they will die, they know they will not get a reward (in fact they will lose a small amount of money in ammo used or repair bills), but they are doing it for the social opportunity to see other players reactions to their actions, whether they are causing chaos, acting out a joke, or trolling.

Trolls and the like are beside the point i was making. I was more talking about a scenario of people actively going to take a town. If there was no hope and no reward, they wouldn't do it, they would find a target that was within their means of winning. And again, I was talking about the average PvP player, not all encompassing every PvP player would do so.

sunandshadow · March 2014

Originally posted by Sephiroso
I was more talking about a scenario of people actively going to take a town. If there was no hope and no reward, they wouldn't do it, they would find a target that was within their means of winning. And again, I was talking about the average PvP player, not all encompassing every PvP player would do so.

I don't personally think that a group of people trying to capture a town is an example of average PvP - there are relatively few MMOs where that is even possible. But I'm not saying PvP players don't like rewards, I'm just saying PvP players sometimes consider social interaction to be rewarding even in a situation where the game itself isn't rewarding them. That's certainly not always true. It's also not unheard of for a PvE challenger to attack a boss they have no hope of beating just because it' impressive-looking and they've never had a chance to see what it does in a fight before. Or perhaps they consider it a minigame to see how long they can survive in the face of overwhelming odds.

I think the real point here is that PvE players expect and demand a higher percentage of victories and concrete rewards from the game in comparison with PvP players.

Sephiroso · March 2014

Originally posted by sunandshadow

Originally posted by Sephiroso
I was more talking about a scenario of people actively going to take a town. If there was no hope and no reward, they wouldn't do it, they would find a target that was within their means of winning. And again, I was talking about the average PvP player, not all encompassing every PvP player would do so.

I don't personally think that a group of people trying to capture a town is an example of average PvP - there are relatively few MMOs where that is even possible. But I'm not saying PvP players don't like rewards, I'm just saying PvP players sometimes consider social interaction to be rewarding even in a situation where the game itself isn't rewarding them. That's certainly not always true. It's also not unheard of for a PvE challenger to attack a boss they have no hope of beating just because it' impressive-looking and they've never had a chance to see what it does in a fight before. Or perhaps they consider it a minigame to see how long they can survive in the face of overwhelming odds.

I think the real point here is that PvE players expect and demand a higher percentage of victories and concrete rewards from the game in comparison with PvP players.

But is that really true though? I admit I have a somewhat paltry experience with pure PvP games but from my understanding. In most pvp games, you can sometimes loot the player you've killed, you gain honor upon killing a player(if faction vs faction) which can be used to purchase items or equipment and so on. I just don't see why a PvE player would expect a higher percentage of victories over PvP players when you look at raiders. Raiders fully expect to wipe hours upon hours making little progress night after night. Sure they want a higher percentage of victories but they understand that's just not going to happen until they learn the fight. This is why I say i just don't see PvE players demanding a higher amount of victories as opposed PvP players. Whether you deign to call it real pvp or not, in my experience in BGs people just straight up leave if there's no hope of victory. Others just go afk to let the other team win faster to get the "reduced" rewards faster.

FinalFikus · March 2014

Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by sunandshadow

Originally posted by Sephiroso You make it sound like PvP players will fight an impossible battle, they wouldn't. The average player, PvP or PvE would never fight a battle that they knowingly had 0% chance to win and get anything from it. PvP players go into PvP aiming to win, everyone(PvP and PvE) knows you can't win every battle but they go in to win. The only reason they would is if they got rewards even for losing. Also PvE players also expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible, its called RNG.

I've personally watched PvP players have a great time jumping into a fight where they know they will die, they know they will not get a reward (in fact they will lose a small amount of money in ammo used or repair bills), but they are doing it for the social opportunity to see other players reactions to their actions, whether they are causing chaos, acting out a joke, or trolling.

Trolls and the like are beside the point i was making. I was more talking about a scenario of people actively going to take a town. If there was no hope and no reward, they wouldn't do it, they would find a target that was within their means of winning. And again, I was talking about the average PvP player, not all encompassing every PvP player would do so.

Depends on what you mean by no hope. There has to be a goal, just impossible odds on making it. It can't be impossible odds with an impossible goal or no goal. If it is, it need to look and feel epic.

Pednick · March 2014

Originally posted by lizardbones
PvE vs PvP is a pretty common topic on these forums. Especially the inclusion or exclusion of OW PvP or FFA PvP. People on both sides of the conversation argue the merits of each and eventually start valuing the worth of players based on which style of game play they prefer. Sometimes there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the what each of these styles of game play encompasses and what player expectations might be. I thought it might be interesting to discuss how the two types of game play are the same and how they differ rather than arguing which is better.

I don't think this is a very complex discussion, but there are a lot of threads about it, so maybe I'm wrong.

Introduction

To start, player expectations about PvP itself fall into two different groups. The "PvE" players expect that PvP will be optional during game play. The players will also expect that game play will not be limited and the rewards will not be limited if the player chooses to not engage in PvP. With the idea that PvP is optional, many of these players will expect PvP content, and will expect rewards similar to rewards in PvE. In contrast to the "PvE" players, the "PvP" players will expect that PvP isn't optional during game play. The player opts in to PvP when they start playing the game. While PvP is expected to occur throughout game play, PvP players may expect a more complex rule set than players in PvE games with optional PvP. Players may turn "red", for killing too many other players or for killing any players, and in this red state sanctions may be taken against the player killer. In other games players have the option of taking out contracts on players or entities within the game itself may take action against player killers. At the same time, players will expect rewards for killing other players, including but not necessarily limited to whatever gear or supplies the killed player was carrying.

Encounters

The PvE focused players will expect encounters to be challenging, but at the same time not insurmountable. With time, additional gear and working out fight mechanics, the player will eventually triumph over even the highest level raid boss or world boss. This may require a significant investment of time and effort, possibly spread out over a month or more, but the idea that the player can eventually triumph is core to the game play. The PvP focused players will not expect all encounters to end successfully. A guild of players may never take another guild's keep or defeat them in battle. Players expect and often encounter unfair situations where triumph is simply impossible.

Mix and Match

PvE players in PvE games will expect that PvE content and PvP content are two separate paths, almost two separate games within the game they are playing. This is a necessary division though, since the players will expect the PvP to be optional. PvP cannot be optional, and at the same time integral to aspects of game play. The PvP players in PvP games will expect the PvP content and PvE content to be integrated together. If players are fighting a boss, they will expect that other players can come and disrupt the fight. Crafting and economy in PvP games is often more complex and can play a central role in the PvP content of the game. It would not be accurate to say this is a function of the PvP centric game play though, because the crafting and economy stem as much from sandbox game play as it does PvP game play. It would be entirely possible to have a sandbox game with optional PvP where the crafting and economy play a central role in the PvE game play.

Conclusion

There are definitely differences in the two styles of game play. Players have different expectations and want different things. They aren't likely to enjoy each others' games. That doesn't mean there aren't players who enjoy both. Many of the people playing WoW are probably playing games like Rust or Mortal Online. There are probably just a small number of people who wish to prove that one style or the other is better. The truth is that they are just different, and some people prefer one, while some people prefer the other, and many people prefer both.

What about you? Have you thought about what a PvP player expects or what a PvE player expects? Do you think there are many PvE players in games like Mortal Online, playing the game without enjoying it in the hopes that one day it will change? What about PvP players playing WoW in the hopes that one day there will be a more complex crafting and economic system, all the while complaining about it one the forums?

FinalFikus · March 2014

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones

There are definitely differences in the two styles of game play. Players have different expectations and want different things. They aren't likely to enjoy each others' games.

You don't really need a whole page to say this. It is pretty obvious. There are so many popular pvp only game, and mostly pve games, and successful games that separate the two.

In fact, there are very few, if any, examples of successful games that combine the two.

Well the current mmorpg audience. Fortunately not all gamers go straight for the tit. Battlefield 1942. Unreal Tournament. The new GTA. Diablo. Pretty much any game where getting the devs to change the game isn't possible everyone plays together fine. Mobas? Any RTS?

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Fundamental Differences Between PvE and PvP

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Fundamental Differences Between PvE and PvP

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