Originally posted by jpnz people like a good story. SWTOR just made 200 million last year.
No.
People like Star Wars. That is why SWTOR made money.
Star Wars or not most people don't play what they don't find enjoyable. They also certainly won't continually throw money at it. Hence the mass exodus months after launch, it was no longer enjoyable. They fixed some of the reasons behind that, hence why they're able to keep players coming back today, in turn they make money.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree completely OP. Every single MMO that has focused on personal story has been a big fail to me (note that I said 'to me', not commercially). If I wanted a deep hero style experience I would play a single player game. When I am playing the hero, I don't want thousands of other heroes running around with me. Its absurd.
I would like to see MMOs focusing on community, worlds and working as a team again.
In this thread, all I've argued for is that personal stories as seen in games like AoC, GW2, and SWTOR don't really fit with the whole persistent, shared world idea of an MMORPG.
I never argued for anything beyond that really. I just want the freedom to explore the world and make my own story, as opposed to being told the same story that every other player is being told. I never said that I think games should be like old school sandboxes with politics, sieges etc.
Your arguments were specifically against old school sandboxes ideas, which you assumed I was arguing for, but in reality, I was not...hence strawman.
You didn't exactly stay on topic there, so I don't see how you can blame me for grasping onto that. You said you wanted to make your own story and I responded to that. You've made your case quite murky.
And like I said in my first post, it seems your beef is not with personal story, but with the static world MMORPGs, all MMORPGs are built on.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Second, I actually DO like personal stories. I just don't like them in MMORPGs. For example, I think that SWTOR should have been made, but I think it should have been a coop RPG...no persistent, shared world. There is really no point for it to have one. You see other players in the world, but they may as well not be there most of the time. Same with ESO.
I don't disagree that many MMORPGs can be made into a better co-op RPG (which i have said before). But what is the problem with personal stories in MMORPGs?
Does it make it better for you if we call those games by some other genre name instead? It is just a convenient label to me. I evaluate the specific game without any regard to how it is labeled. And if there is a good personal story that i can enjoy, i wouldn't care less if the game is a FPS, MMORPG, or SRPG.
Let's remove the genre label to clarify. Let me restate the purpose of this thread as...
"I have a problem when devs insert a "you are the chosen one" style personal story into a persistent, shared world."
No genre labels there .
How is persistence relevant? Why not just "You have issues with 'you are the chosen one' stories in multiplayer games".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
All these personal story focused mmorpgs should be singleplayer/coop rpg's from the get go, with endgame options once you're done leveling.
Allow people to solo or invite others for coop if they wish, but dont make unneccesary open persistent world where you see other solo players and where you can outlevel the area making the permanence of that area useless because the content is too low level for you after you are done.
It would be easier to create "end game content" also if everyone runs their own custom tailored instances of the world areas, so you could have the entire world as end game when people are done leveling and doing their story. Separate copy of the area for the initial story mode and then open the whole world as persistent sandbox once people are through with their personal story.
This end game world would be max level in it's entirety and you wouldnt see any lowbie levelers in there because they would be in their custom instances leveling and doing their storymode there. SWTOR is a good example where I would love this system. More detailed personal story instances of the world initially, up till max level and then open the whole world as a max level sandbox once the personal story and planetary arcs are done.
It could have been amazing singleplayer/coop experience with a vast sandbox on top of that. I hope someday a game like this comes. Fallout Online? No wait, isnt Star Citizen kind of like this? With singleplayer and persistent multiplayer in it? I'm not quite sure of the details about Star Citizen and how it all works.
Edit; sorry if it's discussed already, too many pages and too little time to read all.
So one trend I've noticed in modern MMORPGs is that they all seem to have some form of a "you are the chosen one" story that every player is expected to play through. In fact, in many MMORPGs, even the run of the mill quest are of this variety. And to tell you the truth, I think this is one of the WORST things that has happened to MMORPGs and here's why...
1. Personal stories naturally clash with the persistent, open world concept of MMORPGs.
The whole idea of an MMORPG is to have a persistent virtual world inhabited by real people. In contrast to single player RPGs where people may play to hear a great story, in MMORPGs people play to "live" in the virtual world.
And when you try to add a "you are the chosen one" style story to this concept, it just doesn't work. While you are on your quest, you see other players in the world, but you know that they are also "the chosen one" but for another world personal to them. Sure, you can cooperate with the other players, but they have no real context or impact on the world you are playing in. If you have a quest to save the farmer's daughter, she won't be saved until YOU do it, even if you witness other people doing it beforehand.
This just works to destroy the immersion of both the story and the world. You feel less immersed in the story because you see tons of other players completing your objectives before you get around to it. And you are less immersed in the world because it's clear that the actions of other players in the world have zero impact on "your" world.
2. MMORPG stories are typically lower quality than their SPRPG counterparts.
MMORPGs are huge, very broadly focused, endeavors. Because of this, any one part of the game tends to be inferior to games that can focus more tightly on that one thing.
Story is no exception here. Stories in MMORPGs are infamous for being dull, cliche, and normally vastly inferior to SPRPRGs that focus on story much more. MMORPG stories normally prize quantity over quality because of the need for a lot of replayability...and it shows.
In fact, I think if you were to judge the stories of most MMORPGs on SPRPG standards, they would seem absolutely horrible. Because of this, I would normally MUCH rather play an SPRPG if I want to get a good story.
3. Long-term MMORPG players don't play for the story.
You might think I'm making a bad assumption here, but think about it. Most folks get through the story content of an MMORPG in a month or two...yet people play MMORPGs for years. Clearly, these people are not playing it for the story, if they were, they would stop once it's over.
No, long-term MMORPG players play for the world, social aspects, grinding, etc...
So in conclusion, I don't see why so many devs feel this obsession with having to put a "personal story" in their MMORPG when it basically clashes with everything an MMORPG should be, is normally inferior to other games due to lack of focus, and isn't even the main reason why their most loyal customers play.
In addition, modern stories are EXPENSIVE. They require loads of voice work, animations, writing, etc. Imagine how awesome a AAA MMORPG would be if they used their huge budget on making a persistent world with tons of things to do that never ends, as opposed to making an incredibly expensive, sub-par, one shot story that you will probably never want to play twice.
MMO's without a story are extremely dull and bland without exception. It is practically required for me to be able to go through them because it's an extremely solid way to make me care about the world and the setting. On the other hand if the devs themselves don't give a crap about the world then it is the most useless thing ever. When you don't give a flying crap it really shows in your game.
There are many ways to fit a personal story in an MMORPG. You can be one of the "chosen heroes" while the other players are also similar heroes. The story may ask you to form a group of adventurers instead of having you play alone all the time.
MMO stories can be and usually are worse than their single player counterparts but thats on the developer, not the concept of an MMO story. Good developers create stories for their MMO's that rival and exceed that of the single player games. Sure, they cannot go all out on CGI and altering the world but on the other hand they can let the story tell out the lore and to ground the world in the setting. An excellent script and pacing is important here but when done well, MMO stories wipe their butts with single player stories. A Main story can branch off into many sidestories and epics that flesh out the world while giving you a lot of context for the main story.
One amazing thing about the MMO stories is that when grounded in the setting, the story becomes more and more meaningful as time goes on and patches are released while allowing the developers to do great things with it. When you have played an MMO for two years and find out a massive twist that reshapes everything that has happened so far the potential for a powerful story is infinitely greater than in a single player 50h effort beaten in a single week. One of the major selling points for MMO's can be the fact that they are persistent but that they also allow for the creation of stories spanning months and years. In that way they resemble stories in an episodic format like in TellTale games.
You simply don't get involved in the setting and the world in a single player game the same way you do in an MMO you play for years. The modern technology allows the devs to get very close to the level of single player stories as far as the presentation is concerned. The developers simply have to give a damn about getting there. Only a few do what must be done, the rest tack on the story half-assedly.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by waynejr2 Wow, disagree. Take a look at City of Heroes. It is the best example off the top of my head of a game where grouping and soloing were both easily allowed. You could solo your missions but group up at the drop of a hat with instances scaling up before you got in them.IMO, rude behavior has killed a lot of social aspects of game. I don't want to hear about your politics or your god in game. I don't want to see childish stuff written in chat when grouping.
I really miss City of Heroes/Villains. That whole mechanic of all challenges scaling to party size and on top of that allowing the party to scale the difficulty/amount of mobs further based on how tough they felt really worked. It also meant you could solve most quests either solo or grouped and it would always be a good experience (assuming your party members weren't muppets ofcourse).
Dungeons & Dragons: Online had a bit of it, but since the maps were static it didn't have the same appeal that the changing maps of City of Heroes/Villains offered.
So one trend I've noticed in modern MMORPGs is that they all seem to have some form of a "you are the chosen one" story that every player is expected to play through. In fact, in many MMORPGs, even the run of the mill quest are of this variety. And to tell you the truth, I think this is one of the WORST things that has happened to MMORPGs and here's why...
1. Personal stories naturally clash with the persistent, open world concept of MMORPGs.
The whole idea of an MMORPG is to have a persistent virtual world inhabited by real people. In contrast to single player RPGs where people may play to hear a great story, in MMORPGs people play to "live" in the virtual world.
And when you try to add a "you are the chosen one" style story to this concept, it just doesn't work. While you are on your quest, you see other players in the world, but you know that they are also "the chosen one" but for another world personal to them. Sure, you can cooperate with the other players, but they have no real context or impact on the world you are playing in. If you have a quest to save the farmer's daughter, she won't be saved until YOU do it, even if you witness other people doing it beforehand.
This just works to destroy the immersion of both the story and the world. You feel less immersed in the story because you see tons of other players completing your objectives before you get around to it. And you are less immersed in the world because it's clear that the actions of other players in the world have zero impact on "your" world.
2. MMORPG stories are typically lower quality than their SPRPG counterparts.
MMORPGs are huge, very broadly focused, endeavors. Because of this, any one part of the game tends to be inferior to games that can focus more tightly on that one thing.
Story is no exception here. Stories in MMORPGs are infamous for being dull, cliche, and normally vastly inferior to SPRPRGs that focus on story much more. MMORPG stories normally prize quantity over quality because of the need for a lot of replayability...and it shows.
In fact, I think if you were to judge the stories of most MMORPGs on SPRPG standards, they would seem absolutely horrible. Because of this, I would normally MUCH rather play an SPRPG if I want to get a good story.
3. Long-term MMORPG players don't play for the story.
You might think I'm making a bad assumption here, but think about it. Most folks get through the story content of an MMORPG in a month or two...yet people play MMORPGs for years. Clearly, these people are not playing it for the story, if they were, they would stop once it's over.
No, long-term MMORPG players play for the world, social aspects, grinding, etc...
So in conclusion, I don't see why so many devs feel this obsession with having to put a "personal story" in their MMORPG when it basically clashes with everything an MMORPG should be, is normally inferior to other games due to lack of focus, and isn't even the main reason why their most loyal customers play.
In addition, modern stories are EXPENSIVE. They require loads of voice work, animations, writing, etc. Imagine how awesome a AAA MMORPG would be if they used their huge budget on making a persistent world with tons of things to do that never ends, as opposed to making an incredibly expensive, sub-par, one shot story that you will probably never want to play twice.
You were all over this feature when GW2 was in the pre release phase. why the change of tune?
Actually...
Even though I was a fan of GW2 back then, and still am, I was ALWAYS a pretty vocal critic of the personal story. I'm not going to bother digging up posts from last year to prove this, but feel free to do that yourself if you want .
Second, I actually DO like personal stories. I just don't like them in MMORPGs. For example, I think that SWTOR should have been made, but I think it should have been a coop RPG...no persistent, shared world. There is really no point for it to have one. You see other players in the world, but they may as well not be there most of the time. Same with ESO.
I don't disagree that many MMORPGs can be made into a better co-op RPG (which i have said before). But what is the problem with personal stories in MMORPGs?
Does it make it better for you if we call those games by some other genre name instead? It is just a convenient label to me. I evaluate the specific game without any regard to how it is labeled. And if there is a good personal story that i can enjoy, i wouldn't care less if the game is a FPS, MMORPG, or SRPG.
Let's remove the genre label to clarify. Let me restate the purpose of this thread as...
"I have a problem when devs insert a "you are the chosen one" style personal story into a persistent, shared world."
No genre labels there .
How is persistence relevant? Why not just "You have issues with 'you are the chosen one' stories in multiplayer games".
I don't have an issue with personal story in multiplayer games. In fact, I have on multiple occasions recommended that games like SWTOR and ESO should have been coop RPGs as opposed to MMORPGs.
The OP explains why I have a problem with personal story in MMORPGs, MMORPG meaning that the game has a persistent, shared world.
The reason that games companies are doing the 'personal story' thing is that:
1) It requires basic animation, story writing, and creativity - these are resources that companies have in abundance.
2) It does not require cutting edge mechanics - companies don't want to risk cutting edge mechanics, such as 'proceedural generation' - this requires real brains to pull off correctly - graduates from Cambridge and Harvard etc.
No its not the industry. Just largely this website. And even if ESPN labeled baseball as football it's still not football. MOBAs are literally RTS games wilted down to champion controlled pvp only. You just as well consider Starcraft or War craft MMORPGs. I am certain you can see the differenc bbetween Wow and Warcraft 3
I do not like these personal stories that much, because often, not allways, they are done in a way that directly contradicts what you actually see ingame around you.
(non instaced szenario )quest npc: "chosen one, i need your help to do this and that!"
Then you travel into that cave, kill a boss or collect 10 x, but see 10 chosen ones doing the exact same thing. For me that is immersion breaking, and not fun.
On the other hand the chosen one personal story concept works quite well for me in an instaced szenario, like swtor.
Generally quests in mmos should be embracing and using the fact to their advantage that there are hundres of characters out there and should focus more on team goals, "small part of something bigger". I believe some quests in GW2 do this quite good, aka public quests, where many people work on a goal togehter, and everything makes sense. many people have to deliver ...20 apples togehter, not everyone only 1 apple...)
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal No its not the industry. Just largely this website. And even if ESPN labeled baseball as football it's still not football. MOBAs are literally RTS games wilted down to champion controlled pvp only. You just as well consider Starcraft or War craft MMORPGs. I am certain you can see the differenc bbetween Wow and Warcraft 3
Not the industry?
Gamespot and IGN don't count DDO & Marvel Heroes as MMORPGs?
I do not like these personal stories that much, because often, not allways, they are done in a way that directly contradicts what you actually see ingame around you.
On the other hand the chosen one personal story concept works quite well for me in an instaced szenario, like swtor.
Like you say, just put all the stories in instances .... problem solved. It has the added advantage of you can have the instance (your personal "world") change around you.
Comments
SWTOR is one of the reasons MMOs should be divided into sandboxes, themeparks and semi-MMO themeparks.
Swtor is closer to a coop SP game then a MMO.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Star Wars or not most people don't play what they don't find enjoyable. They also certainly won't continually throw money at it. Hence the mass exodus months after launch, it was no longer enjoyable. They fixed some of the reasons behind that, hence why they're able to keep players coming back today, in turn they make money.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree completely OP. Every single MMO that has focused on personal story has been a big fail to me (note that I said 'to me', not commercially). If I wanted a deep hero style experience I would play a single player game. When I am playing the hero, I don't want thousands of other heroes running around with me. Its absurd.
I would like to see MMOs focusing on community, worlds and working as a team again.
You didn't exactly stay on topic there, so I don't see how you can blame me for grasping onto that. You said you wanted to make your own story and I responded to that. You've made your case quite murky.
And like I said in my first post, it seems your beef is not with personal story, but with the static world MMORPGs, all MMORPGs are built on.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
How is persistence relevant? Why not just "You have issues with 'you are the chosen one' stories in multiplayer games".
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
All these personal story focused mmorpgs should be singleplayer/coop rpg's from the get go, with endgame options once you're done leveling.
Allow people to solo or invite others for coop if they wish, but dont make unneccesary open persistent world where you see other solo players and where you can outlevel the area making the permanence of that area useless because the content is too low level for you after you are done.
It would be easier to create "end game content" also if everyone runs their own custom tailored instances of the world areas, so you could have the entire world as end game when people are done leveling and doing their story. Separate copy of the area for the initial story mode and then open the whole world as persistent sandbox once people are through with their personal story.
This end game world would be max level in it's entirety and you wouldnt see any lowbie levelers in there because they would be in their custom instances leveling and doing their storymode there. SWTOR is a good example where I would love this system. More detailed personal story instances of the world initially, up till max level and then open the whole world as a max level sandbox once the personal story and planetary arcs are done.
It could have been amazing singleplayer/coop experience with a vast sandbox on top of that. I hope someday a game like this comes. Fallout Online? No wait, isnt Star Citizen kind of like this? With singleplayer and persistent multiplayer in it? I'm not quite sure of the details about Star Citizen and how it all works.
Edit; sorry if it's discussed already, too many pages and too little time to read all.
MMO's without a story are extremely dull and bland without exception. It is practically required for me to be able to go through them because it's an extremely solid way to make me care about the world and the setting. On the other hand if the devs themselves don't give a crap about the world then it is the most useless thing ever. When you don't give a flying crap it really shows in your game.
There are many ways to fit a personal story in an MMORPG. You can be one of the "chosen heroes" while the other players are also similar heroes. The story may ask you to form a group of adventurers instead of having you play alone all the time.
MMO stories can be and usually are worse than their single player counterparts but thats on the developer, not the concept of an MMO story. Good developers create stories for their MMO's that rival and exceed that of the single player games. Sure, they cannot go all out on CGI and altering the world but on the other hand they can let the story tell out the lore and to ground the world in the setting. An excellent script and pacing is important here but when done well, MMO stories wipe their butts with single player stories. A Main story can branch off into many sidestories and epics that flesh out the world while giving you a lot of context for the main story.
One amazing thing about the MMO stories is that when grounded in the setting, the story becomes more and more meaningful as time goes on and patches are released while allowing the developers to do great things with it. When you have played an MMO for two years and find out a massive twist that reshapes everything that has happened so far the potential for a powerful story is infinitely greater than in a single player 50h effort beaten in a single week. One of the major selling points for MMO's can be the fact that they are persistent but that they also allow for the creation of stories spanning months and years. In that way they resemble stories in an episodic format like in TellTale games.
You simply don't get involved in the setting and the world in a single player game the same way you do in an MMO you play for years. The modern technology allows the devs to get very close to the level of single player stories as far as the presentation is concerned. The developers simply have to give a damn about getting there. Only a few do what must be done, the rest tack on the story half-assedly.
Dungeons & Dragons: Online had a bit of it, but since the maps were static it didn't have the same appeal that the changing maps of City of Heroes/Villains offered.
Actually...
Even though I was a fan of GW2 back then, and still am, I was ALWAYS a pretty vocal critic of the personal story. I'm not going to bother digging up posts from last year to prove this, but feel free to do that yourself if you want
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I don't have an issue with personal story in multiplayer games. In fact, I have on multiple occasions recommended that games like SWTOR and ESO should have been coop RPGs as opposed to MMORPGs.
The OP explains why I have a problem with personal story in MMORPGs, MMORPG meaning that the game has a persistent, shared world.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I agree entirely with the OP.
The reason that games companies are doing the 'personal story' thing is that:
1) It requires basic animation, story writing, and creativity - these are resources that companies have in abundance.
2) It does not require cutting edge mechanics - companies don't want to risk cutting edge mechanics, such as 'proceedural generation' - this requires real brains to pull off correctly - graduates from Cambridge and Harvard etc.
And SWG was closed down .. and it did not made $200M in 2013. So much for the SW theory.
MMORPG.com and the industry disagree. DDO, GW1, Marvel Heroes, LoL, even D3 are listed as such.
Persistent world is really not that crucial for a MMORPG, as it is classified now.
Please see my response to this exact same statement that you made in the other thread here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/407573/page/6
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I do not like these personal stories that much, because often, not allways, they are done in a way that directly contradicts what you actually see ingame around you.
(non instaced szenario )quest npc: "chosen one, i need your help to do this and that!"
Then you travel into that cave, kill a boss or collect 10 x, but see 10 chosen ones doing the exact same thing. For me that is immersion breaking, and not fun.
On the other hand the chosen one personal story concept works quite well for me in an instaced szenario, like swtor.
Generally quests in mmos should be embracing and using the fact to their advantage that there are hundres of characters out there and should focus more on team goals, "small part of something bigger". I believe some quests in GW2 do this quite good, aka public quests, where many people work on a goal togehter, and everything makes sense. many people have to deliver ...20 apples togehter, not everyone only 1 apple...)
Not the industry?
Gamespot and IGN don't count DDO & Marvel Heroes as MMORPGs?
Superdata don't include LOL in their MMO data?
Like you say, just put all the stories in instances .... problem solved. It has the added advantage of you can have the instance (your personal "world") change around you.