I find the more involved I become with a game, the more likely I am to become cynical and hypercritical of it. Bit paradoxical, but that's how it is in my experience.
I hate it when people use the argument "myself and other have argued ..." as if they have some sort of weight because they are a plurality. I'm sure there are others who argued the opposite and are no more right or wrong except that it is their own opinion.
It also sound like he had no business being a beta tester if he wasn't prepared for changes as well as changes that went against what he liked.
I do agree that the game lacks some conviction in that it doesn't know if it want's to be an standard themepark mmo or if it wants to incorporate elder scrolls ideas.
I agree with all your points...including my feelings about how they started catering to public opinion too much (and yes, I know, some would see that as a positive) and lost their original vision along the way.
But the thing that stuck out for me was his sense of entitlement as a "near co-developer" particularly with respect to the mods and his feelings of having been betrayed because of the API nerf... that's a sensitive issue for many in the Entropy Rising guild.
But mostly I read it as the burn out that happens to many after being heavily involved in a game for many months. And it typically happens after a patch that nerfs something--usually an ability--the poster was relying on for his game play enjoyment. In this case, it happened to be an add-on nerf instead of a class nerf but I've read similar good bye posts many times before.
That's what I was going to say. It sounded more like MMO burnout to me. Most people would feel like 9+ months of constant playtime for an MMO is pretty damn good (not to mention a game that's in a beta state). I enjoyed reading his thoughtful comprehensive review (which ironically wasn't even that long ago and was quite positive on the game) but this goodbye blog post didn't have much in the way of substance. It was nothing more than unsubstantiated F2P speculation and one valid gripe about the API changes.
The API changes seem kind of dumb but I think they were like the starter area changes. It's more or less a launch time punt. They probably ran out of time to continue making changes and needed to just make some last minute decisions to stabilize the launch product. I don't agree with the starter area changes, either but I feel they will fix that and the API issues in a future patch. No reason at this point to think they wont unless you are just looking for an excuse to quit because you are burned out on the game and maybe want some attention on the way out?
Originally posted by simsalabim77 I find the more involved I become with a game, the more likely I am to become cynical and hypercritical of it. Bit paradoxical, but that's how it is in my experience.
It's called feeling of ownership. He feels he has a stake in the game and therefore influence. He is wrong and immature for thinking that way. It's that simple.
Well 9 months consecutive months would be longer than I have played any mmo. I would consider ESO to be one of the best games I have ever played to play it for that long.
On the whole mod issue I can see his point though. You've allowed people to develop mods for a game for a long time. Then you pull the rug out from under them just before launch because of some vocal whiners. Seems a bit two faced, If I had of wasted time developing a mod for ESO, I would probably have felt like I had been stabbed in the back at this point.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 I find the more involved I become with a game, the more likely I am to become cynical and hypercritical of it. Bit paradoxical, but that's how it is in my experience.
It's called feeling of ownership. He feels he has a stake in the game and therefore influence. He is wrong and immature for thinking that way. It's that simple.
I don't think he's wrong or immature. I think he's just heavily invested into a game that didn't turn out the way he'd hoped. I thought his post was well written and pretty level headed. We may not agree on every point, but I understand where he's coming from.
Well 9 months consecutive months would be longer than I have played any mmo. I would consider ESO to be one of the best games I have ever played to play it for that long.
On the whole mod issue I can see his point though. You've allowed people to develop mods for a game for a long time. Then you pull the rug out from under them just before launch because of some vocal whiners. Seems a bit two faced, If I had of wasted time developing a mod for ESO, I would probably have felt like I had been stabbed in the back at this point.
He's wrong though. You can still test your abilities. You still have access to all your personal information. He and many others have spread misinformation about the API limitation.
The blog was well written and well articulated, it was a refreshing read.
It was also *clearly* prefaced as personal opinion.
" but I want to stress that these are simply my personal reasons which I am expressing for those who are interested."
I don't see what the issue is at all - it's amusing to see so many folks get defensive over a personal opinion.
I do agree with many points that he brings up - especially the pressures dev studios face from execs to make the game "profitable" - this often leads to devs having to eat thier words and go back on their promises.
I think he's spot on the state of ESO - the history will speak for itself, no need to speculate on anything as launch is near.
Oh but lets crucify this person for stating his personal opinion - because I disagree with thier opinion - therefore they must be a troll/idiot/______ (insert whatever degrading thing you want to come up)
Again over an opinion....
Stay classy!
He's actually asking to be flamed, there was no need to post such a long story, unless he had a lot of "followers" which demanded an answer. He could have gone quietly and no one would have noticed or cared about, but instead he made a loong and well written post about the issues he had with the game and threw in his own speculations about the game future, he went through every single controversy on the game, he wanted the attention, and with attention comes the judging. Again, he could have gone away quietly, but he decided to expose himself and add more wood to the dying fire.
Originally posted by simsalabim77 I find the more involved I become with a game, the more likely I am to become cynical and hypercritical of it. Bit paradoxical, but that's how it is in my experience.
It's called feeling of ownership. He feels he has a stake in the game and therefore influence. He is wrong and immature for thinking that way. It's that simple.
I don't think he's wrong or immature. I think he's just heavily invested into a game that didn't turn out the way he'd hoped. I thought his post was well written and pretty level headed. We may not agree on every point, but I understand where he's coming from.
My feelings exactly.
I have lots of RL game QA tester friends, they all develop this close bond with games as if they were people almost - and seeing the games launch is an emotional time for them.
There is a HUGE difference between QA testers and Alpha testers. HUGE.
Well 9 months consecutive months would be longer than I have played any mmo. I would consider ESO to be one of the best games I have ever played to play it for that long.
On the whole mod issue I can see his point though. You've allowed people to develop mods for a game for a long time. Then you pull the rug out from under them just before launch because of some vocal whiners. Seems a bit two faced, If I had of wasted time developing a mod for ESO, I would probably have felt like I had been stabbed in the back at this point.
The rug wasn't pulled, there was notice of the API being restricted before launch a few times, it was just a question of what they would restrict.
I hate it when people use the argument "myself and other have argued ..." as if they have some sort of weight because they are a plurality. I'm sure there are others who argued the opposite and are no more right or wrong except that it is their own opinion.
It also sound like he had no business being a beta tester if he wasn't prepared for changes as well as changes that went against what he liked.
I do agree that the game lacks some conviction in that it doesn't know if it want's to be an standard themepark mmo or if it wants to incorporate elder scrolls ideas.
I agree with all your points...including my feelings about how they started catering to public opinion too much (and yes, I know, some would see that as a positive) and lost their original vision along the way.
But the thing that stuck out for me was his sense of entitlement as a "near co-developer" particularly with respect to the mods and his feelings of having been betrayed because of the API nerf... that's a sensitive issue for many in the Entropy Rising guild.
But mostly I read it as the burn out that happens to many after being heavily involved in a game for many months. And it typically happens after a patch that nerfs something--usually an ability--the poster was relying on for his game play enjoyment. In this case, it happened to be an add-on nerf instead of a class nerf but I've read similar good bye posts many times before.
That's what I was going to say. It sounded more like MMO burnout to me. Most people would feel like 9+ months of constant playtime for an MMO is pretty damn good (not to mention a game that's in a beta state). I enjoyed reading his thoughtful comprehensive review (which ironically wasn't even that long ago and was quite positive on the game) but this goodbye blog post didn't have much in the way of substance. It was nothing more than unsubstantiated F2P speculation and one valid gripe about the API changes.
The API changes seem kind of dumb but I think they were like the starter area changes. It's more or less a launch time punt. They probably ran out of time to continue making changes and needed to just make some last minute decisions to stabilize the launch product. I don't agree with the starter area changes, either but I feel they will fix that and the API issues in a future patch. No reason at this point to think they wont unless you are just looking for an excuse to quit because you are burned out on the game and maybe want some attention on the way out?
Possibly - but IMO that's not entirely the case here.
Long term beta testers develop an emotional attachment to the game and their guildmates - once you put in 9 months into beta testing the game and seeing it get all the way to launch - and you decide to leave the game and your guild, it feels like you're breaking up with a loved one.
His blog was his way working through this - it is his way of saying goodbye, which is even in the title of his blog post.
If the primary purpose of his blog was attention-seeking, I think there would be a lot more venom in there.
It's just one dude who played a game for a long time saying goodbye - that's what I am getting out it anyway.
I've seen attention seeking blogs - they don't read anything like that.
Yeah it wasn't egregious or anything. It didn't rise to the level of attention whoring or anything. That being said it was also lacking substance. Compared to his recent comprehensive review it was decidedly lacking in substance or value. His review evenly laid out negatives and positives in a factual manner whereas this was mostly butthurt, speculation and MMO burnout.
There is a HUGE difference between QA testers and Alpha testers. HUGE.
Oh I agree - it's a huge difference as QA testers get to work with devs in a lot more direct manner.
However, it doesn't mean that some external alpha players don't develop the same emotional ties to the game.
It happens.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying having such an emotional attachment is an immature and rookie mistake in testing. You have to keep some distance or get burned. In the end it is ZOS' game.
I too used to be a beta tester with a delusional over-inflated sense that my opinions and wants were important to a game's success.... until I took an arrow to the knee.
His first issue being with bugs is not something ANY mmorpg completely eliminates. When your talking about a project as big as a mmorpg with so many different variables any change made can have unforseen consequences often ones that only appear when the change goes live.
Secondly, his lazy eyed vision I disagree the developers have a clear vision of the game they want to make but they are also listening to the playerbase (as much as they can) and making changes according to the feedback. But people need to remember that a change takes time to implement so the changes being made NOW are the ones they were working on last month. The peeve of today fix wont be in until next month etc. The overall direction this game follows will in part be affected by its playerbase. We just need to hope that the developers keep track of what tey are doing to ensure it doesnt get to diluted in the process.
His point about the shop AND subscription model is a valid one and pretty much the only truly valid point. A shop with account changes being charged ie renames, server swaps etc are in my opinion acceptable. However adding vanity items as well, and I also feel concern about the overall direction taken.
As for the Imperial class its a strange one on one hand its finally something worthwhile added to a collectors edition with actual long term useability. However, I can also see the annoyance for NON collector edition players having a full race blocked.
Still, we all know what must be said to anyone going all diva on leaving "So long and can I have your stuff ?"
His first issue being with bugs is not something ANY mmorpg completely eliminates. When your talking about a project as big as a mmorpg with so many different variables any change made can have unforseen consequences often ones that only appear when the change goes live.
Secondly, his lazy eyed vision I disagree the developers have a clear vision of the game they want to make but they are also listening to the playerbase (as much as they can) and making changes according to the feedback. But people need to remember that a change takes time to implement so the changes being made NOW are the ones they were working on last month. The peeve of today fix wont be in until next month etc. The overall direction this game follows will in part be affected by its playerbase. We just need to hope that the developers keep track of what tey are doing to ensure it doesnt get to diluted in the process.
His point about the shop AND subscription model is a valid one and pretty much the only truly valid point. A shop with account changes being charged ie renames, server swaps etc are in my opinion acceptable. However adding vanity items as well, and I also feel concern about the overall direction taken.
As for the Imperial class its a strange one on one hand its finally something worthwhile added to a collectors edition with actual long term useability. However, I can also see the annoyance for NON collector edition players having a full race blocked.
Still, we all know what must be said to anyone going all diva on leaving "So long and can I have your stuff ?"
Just my 2 cents
Is this true? You buy the game and you have a race blocked? If this is for real, for a sub based game, then this is really retarded!!!
The author of this text is a long term beta tester (if I remember correct 9+ months) and did level up several characters to LVL 50 already. He was aswell a moderator at the tamrielfoundry forums.
I hate it when people use the argument "myself and other have argued ..." as if they have some sort of weight because they are a plurality. I'm sure there are others who argued the opposite and are no more right or wrong except that it is their own opinion.
It also sound like he had no business being a beta tester if he wasn't prepared for changes as well as changes that went against what he liked.
I do agree that the game lacks some conviction in that it doesn't know if it want's to be an standard themepark mmo or if it wants to incorporate elder scrolls ideas.
I agree with all your points...including my feelings about how they started catering to public opinion too much (and yes, I know, some would see that as a positive) and lost their original vision along the way.
But the thing that stuck out for me was his sense of entitlement as a "near co-developer" particularly with respect to the mods and his feelings of having been betrayed because of the API nerf... that's a sensitive issue for many in the Entropy Rising guild.
But mostly I read it as the burn out that happens to many after being heavily involved in a game for many months. And it typically happens after a patch that nerfs something--usually an ability--the poster was relying on for his game play enjoyment. In this case, it happened to be an add-on nerf instead of a class nerf but I've read similar good bye posts many times before.
lol...
Wihte Knights the game? Commited and insightful beta tester.
Criticises the game? Bitter and burnt out on mmos.
Only playes to level 10? Doesn't know enough to know what he is talking about.
Plays for 9 months? He's just too close to the game and burnt out / bitter of design choices.
If I get 9 months in ESO I'l be more than happy...but If I'm also burnt out and irritable at that point I'll leave quietly.
I don't think so much of myself or my influence to feel compelled to write an essay whenever I stop playing one game and start another one.
That. The last game I have played for 9months+ was World of Warcraft (actually from release up to now, with pauses here and there) and so far not a single game came close. Not that I say no game will ever get close and start comparing, no, it just didnt happen yet. Wildstar is a very good candidate, but ESO: No, definitelly not. Will play it surely the first month and if there are no mindblowing improvements after this first month then I am gone.
There is a HUGE difference between QA testers and Alpha testers. HUGE.
Oh I agree - it's a huge difference as QA testers get to work with devs in a lot more direct manner.
However, it doesn't mean that some external alpha players don't develop the same emotional ties to the game.
It happens.
The Tamrielfoundry and Entropy Rising members appear to have been a significant grouping in the alpha/closed-beta tester community. From what I have read, they had a "close" relationship with the devs. It is not unusual for that to happen during a long testing/development period.
The problem that arises in these situations is that such a group start feeling that they are "major stakeholders" in the development process. The problem is that even though their opinions are valued by the dev team, those opinions do not carry "weight" in the same way as the opinions of the actual dev team employed by ZOS.
Ultimately, the alpha testers are not individually important, it is their collective feedback that is valued though.
I have seen this process develop in countless closed betas, where certain groups become angry and disaffected as the launch date approaches and they begin to realise that their "special interest" is not going to receive the importance that they feel it deserves. Many of them go from major fanboy to superhater overnight.
Assuming that you don't rush the game, on Tamriel Foundry they said that it takes you roundabout 6 days play time to reach lvl50 when the main quest line is done, too. Double this time to max out to VR10 and you have got 288 hours of play time just for exploring the world. Assuming that you are a normal guy with a job and only 3 hours time to play, this makes more than 3 months of fun. And we have not included crafting or AvA.
9 months of playtime and having played several characters up to VR10 means that the author must have played several hours per day. Do this for 9 months in a game that is still under development and you get burned quickly. That's what happened to the author.
When it comes to the missing information in the UI as stated by the author. I think TESO aims to simply not offer all information and by doing so it returns to the roots of MMORPGs where the player had to analyze actions of an opponent by visual effects. Put in other words: The game indeed asks you to pay attention to what is happening instead of staring on icons showing the condition of you or your target. I like this approach, because it means in that you must learn to play your character as well as must learn how to approach certain opponents.
Comments
That's what I was going to say. It sounded more like MMO burnout to me. Most people would feel like 9+ months of constant playtime for an MMO is pretty damn good (not to mention a game that's in a beta state). I enjoyed reading his thoughtful comprehensive review (which ironically wasn't even that long ago and was quite positive on the game) but this goodbye blog post didn't have much in the way of substance. It was nothing more than unsubstantiated F2P speculation and one valid gripe about the API changes.
The API changes seem kind of dumb but I think they were like the starter area changes. It's more or less a launch time punt. They probably ran out of time to continue making changes and needed to just make some last minute decisions to stabilize the launch product. I don't agree with the starter area changes, either but I feel they will fix that and the API issues in a future patch. No reason at this point to think they wont unless you are just looking for an excuse to quit because you are burned out on the game and maybe want some attention on the way out?
It's called feeling of ownership. He feels he has a stake in the game and therefore influence. He is wrong and immature for thinking that way. It's that simple.
Well 9 months consecutive months would be longer than I have played any mmo. I would consider ESO to be one of the best games I have ever played to play it for that long.
On the whole mod issue I can see his point though. You've allowed people to develop mods for a game for a long time. Then you pull the rug out from under them just before launch because of some vocal whiners. Seems a bit two faced, If I had of wasted time developing a mod for ESO, I would probably have felt like I had been stabbed in the back at this point.
I don't think he's wrong or immature. I think he's just heavily invested into a game that didn't turn out the way he'd hoped. I thought his post was well written and pretty level headed. We may not agree on every point, but I understand where he's coming from.
He's wrong though. You can still test your abilities. You still have access to all your personal information. He and many others have spread misinformation about the API limitation.
He's actually asking to be flamed, there was no need to post such a long story, unless he had a lot of "followers" which demanded an answer. He could have gone quietly and no one would have noticed or cared about, but instead he made a loong and well written post about the issues he had with the game and threw in his own speculations about the game future, he went through every single controversy on the game, he wanted the attention, and with attention comes the judging. Again, he could have gone away quietly, but he decided to expose himself and add more wood to the dying fire.
There is a HUGE difference between QA testers and Alpha testers. HUGE.
The rug wasn't pulled, there was notice of the API being restricted before launch a few times, it was just a question of what they would restrict.
Yeah it wasn't egregious or anything. It didn't rise to the level of attention whoring or anything. That being said it was also lacking substance. Compared to his recent comprehensive review it was decidedly lacking in substance or value. His review evenly laid out negatives and positives in a factual manner whereas this was mostly butthurt, speculation and MMO burnout.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying having such an emotional attachment is an immature and rookie mistake in testing. You have to keep some distance or get burned. In the end it is ZOS' game.
There Is Always Hope!
His first issue being with bugs is not something ANY mmorpg completely eliminates. When your talking about a project as big as a mmorpg with so many different variables any change made can have unforseen consequences often ones that only appear when the change goes live.
Secondly, his lazy eyed vision I disagree the developers have a clear vision of the game they want to make but they are also listening to the playerbase (as much as they can) and making changes according to the feedback. But people need to remember that a change takes time to implement so the changes being made NOW are the ones they were working on last month. The peeve of today fix wont be in until next month etc. The overall direction this game follows will in part be affected by its playerbase. We just need to hope that the developers keep track of what tey are doing to ensure it doesnt get to diluted in the process.
His point about the shop AND subscription model is a valid one and pretty much the only truly valid point. A shop with account changes being charged ie renames, server swaps etc are in my opinion acceptable. However adding vanity items as well, and I also feel concern about the overall direction taken.
As for the Imperial class its a strange one on one hand its finally something worthwhile added to a collectors edition with actual long term useability. However, I can also see the annoyance for NON collector edition players having a full race blocked.
Still, we all know what must be said to anyone going all diva on leaving "So long and can I have your stuff ?"
Just my 2 cents
Is this true? You buy the game and you have a race blocked? If this is for real, for a sub based game, then this is really retarded!!!
What a special little flower that tester must be.
Fare well sweet prince, may all your future mmos be blah blah blah.
What a self righteous twonk.
PAST: UO-SWG-DAOC-WOW-DDO-VG-AOC-WAR-FE-DFO-LOTRO-RIFT-GW2
PRESENT: Nothing
FUTURE: ESO
wow that was deep.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
wow. article is spot on & sum up my feeling on eso.
the quality as is, is a B grade mmo.
i have pre-ordered so i ll spend a month with it .
hopefully improvements get in quickly and it become a great game.
does not look good right now, jack of mmo & es ip. master of none.
lol...
Wihte Knights the game? Commited and insightful beta tester.
Criticises the game? Bitter and burnt out on mmos.
Only playes to level 10? Doesn't know enough to know what he is talking about.
Plays for 9 months? He's just too close to the game and burnt out / bitter of design choices.
I see what you did there
That. The last game I have played for 9months+ was World of Warcraft (actually from release up to now, with pauses here and there) and so far not a single game came close. Not that I say no game will ever get close and start comparing, no, it just didnt happen yet. Wildstar is a very good candidate, but ESO: No, definitelly not. Will play it surely the first month and if there are no mindblowing improvements after this first month then I am gone.
The Tamrielfoundry and Entropy Rising members appear to have been a significant grouping in the alpha/closed-beta tester community. From what I have read, they had a "close" relationship with the devs. It is not unusual for that to happen during a long testing/development period.
The problem that arises in these situations is that such a group start feeling that they are "major stakeholders" in the development process. The problem is that even though their opinions are valued by the dev team, those opinions do not carry "weight" in the same way as the opinions of the actual dev team employed by ZOS.
Ultimately, the alpha testers are not individually important, it is their collective feedback that is valued though.
I have seen this process develop in countless closed betas, where certain groups become angry and disaffected as the launch date approaches and they begin to realise that their "special interest" is not going to receive the importance that they feel it deserves. Many of them go from major fanboy to superhater overnight.
I thought it would be about addons before I even read it. I wasn't surprised.
Surely people dont take every change as the final product, I'm sure more API access will be given back to the players in time.
Yes, in time...API access in time. EU servers in time. Bugs in time. Imperial race in time. Combat animations in time. Adventure Zones in time.
Can we pls have something NOW?
The game is not unplayable with minimum amount of API, only in the minds of some people. There is no reason to have it all NOW lol
Assuming that you don't rush the game, on Tamriel Foundry they said that it takes you roundabout 6 days play time to reach lvl50 when the main quest line is done, too. Double this time to max out to VR10 and you have got 288 hours of play time just for exploring the world. Assuming that you are a normal guy with a job and only 3 hours time to play, this makes more than 3 months of fun. And we have not included crafting or AvA.
9 months of playtime and having played several characters up to VR10 means that the author must have played several hours per day. Do this for 9 months in a game that is still under development and you get burned quickly. That's what happened to the author.
When it comes to the missing information in the UI as stated by the author. I think TESO aims to simply not offer all information and by doing so it returns to the roots of MMORPGs where the player had to analyze actions of an opponent by visual effects. Put in other words: The game indeed asks you to pay attention to what is happening instead of staring on icons showing the condition of you or your target. I like this approach, because it means in that you must learn to play your character as well as must learn how to approach certain opponents.