BTW = we are pretty pleased with the beta on sunlight, though some people have reported getting burnt out pretty bad already... but then again, they've been in it for the past 9 months
I think Zenimax is smart enough to know they wouldve got a few more subs by not changing the addons. But as big an issue as some people want to make it out to be, its not even remotely. You'll lose a few that for some reason cant play the game unless their little needs are accomodated too. Zenimax wont really gain much by not doing it, except the respect of those who have no interest in using addons in the first place or are indifferent and will just use whatever is available, which is the majority. Its just dishonest and laughable at this point for the people so hurt over the addon changes to say with a straight face that Zenimax has no direction or vision behind the game. They just told you they dont want your money because the design of their game is more important. It doesnt get any more direct than that.
Also theres already QQ I quit posts and the beta characters arent even dead yet LOL...this is hilarious.
The real issue was never about addons or the API
The only reason the addon debate is such a big one is because there are some glaring limitations with the games unmodified UI, and the UI is one of the most important parts of any game. You are correct that the amount of people quitting over it right now is tiny in the grand scheme of things, but once people start to progress and getting to some of the more challenging content the cracks in the UI will start to become apparent and what is now tiny will start to grow.
SWTOR is a prime example of game that released with too limited (but still much better than ESO) A UI and lost quite a lot of subs over it, so much so that they rushed out big update with much fanfare that was pretty much just UI improvements.
Point is if you think the UI isn't going to be a big issue you are kidding yourself
I love how the people on here moan and try to reinforce themselves and their ideals. now I read the guys post and it sounds quite informative and well put together with detailed facts that he uses to give evidence and merit behind what he is saying. Now, with MMO's we always live in uncertain times and they appear to be more of a gamble than anything else these days which is why it is important to have these critics with extensive play time have their voice heard.
It is about consumer awareness and the more of it we have the better. Now, what he said might not change your view of the game and you might still buy into it and get a lot of enjoyment out it, this is something he says in his blog also. But, his main concern is that the lasting appeal to the game is not there, that the game is not user friendly with regards to a few informative mechanics and that the companies word has been shady at best.
Now, I could easily say that:
1) he played 9 months of a game with no content updates, so, on a basis that content is updated regular when live the life of the game might not be an issue.
2) I have no reference to relate to with him about the end game information on the UI, whether there is to much or too little. I imagine that the company either the company focused on what they believed mattered most, or that the information itself is something only relevant to small sections of gaming community and as such would be best suited as an addon created by the community rather than resources being spent on it. Of course, no idea how important this is at this stage, but, the only have a finite amount of resources to spend and they opted to not focus on that one.
3) The transition from P2P to F2P will irk a lot of people, especially those whom pay a box price or collectors additions. Now, they might be looking to just simply go down a hybrid model like WoW is because they see that as the best way to monetise the game, but I would agree that putting resources in place to allow a seamless F2P transition does not invoke consumer confidence. Neither does having the developers change their minds or go against information they previously said.
Now, I can understand that marketing and business decisions are made for the betterment for both the company and their consumers but in a world of MMOs once Subscription now F2P this will worry a lot of people.
In short, I will be giving this game a go, why not, I waste a bit of money and time and hopefully I get some enjoyment out of it. However I welcome more feedback and critique about the game.
These people are doing us all a favour by keeping us updated and whether you agree with him or not you should be thankful for the time he put in trying to help.
I love the UI. I don't like things cluttering up my screen. In WoW and other games that allowed add-ons or UI customization, I always tried to get rid of any and all art on the UI, and get rid of all the non-essentials. With ESO, I don't have to do anything
That's a LOT of words to say what I've been saying all along. ESO is a weak ES game and a weak MMORPG.
I've actually been calling it an abomination all along, but that's just because I like both ES and MMORPGs and don't like seeing the blend of the two - it was a bad idea to begin with and ended up being garbage.
I'd rather see a more typical MMORPG (WildStar was delightful to play in my first beta weekend recently vs the sleep inducing boredom every attempt to play ESO yielded) or ES VI with the addition of player hosted co-op, since the only thing IMO that could make Skyrim better is to make it bigger and more of everything, and to enjoy it with a very few select friends.
The MMORPG genre could use a spark to show what it's capable of and rekindle magic lost. ESO is not that spark, it's just another blemish on the failings of modern MMORPG designs and ideas.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Blog author here, and because I am apparently the idiot everyone on this site thinks I am, I thought plunging into the Lion's Den would be a fun way to spend my lunch break today. It's a Monday. It was expected to be shitty anyway.
The major thing I would like to clarify is that if at any point during the read, you thought to yourself, "who the fuck is this guy and why should I care", then you simply aren't my target audience. Regardless of your opinion of me as a person, it is undeniable that I am fairly well known in at least my little corner of the TESO community through my participation on Tamriel Foundry and Twonkhammer's TESOCast, and I don't think it's unreasonable for me to assume that people who are fans of those outlets would be interested in my departure.
As I said in the post, those are the people that this article was written for - the ones I know personally, and the ones that follow me personally; this is why I posted it to my low traffic blog, and not Tamriel Foundry itself. I shared my post on my personal Twitter, my guild forums, and the off-topic forum of Tamriel Foundry, the site which I have helped to run for the last year. While it has made its way to MMORPG.com and Reddit through other posters, none of that was my doing, because in all truthfulness, I agree with you guys. You don't know who I am, and I wouldn't expect you to care.
The target audience defines a lot about my approach to the piece, which I believe has lead to some confusion now that several thousand people outside of that audience have found their way to it. While the post is merely a telling of my personal loss of faith in the game and its developer, it has been approached as if it were a review, meant to inform or sway the opinions of a lot of people. I don't blame the confused for the misunderstanding, as the style they are interpreting the post as being is a lot more in line with my past writing than the one in question.
In the end though, the post should be viewed for what it actually is - a personal blog post, which should only be held to a slightly higher standard than a Facebook post.
With the post now properly framed as an insight into my own personal choices and not a review meant to persuade or enact change, a lot of the post should make more sense. Some have accused me of "crystal-balling" due to the post being entirely future focused, but when I have already seen the content that is currently in the game, what other standard should I use for my own personal purchasing decisions? Many have mentioned that the length I stuck with the game indicates that I'm full of it, but this is something the post already addressed, multiple times, with a disclaimer at the top and bottom noting that many people will get their money's worth and enjoy the content that is already in game. That's a great standard for those people to choose by, and for them, there is my comprehensive review. It's not appropriate for me though; I've been there - I've done that, and the future is all the game would hold.
For me to drop money on the game, I have to be convinced that TESO has what it take to survive in the market as a long-term MMORPG. I want to think that it does, but based on my beta testing experience, and experience with the MMO market in general, I really don't think it will. The post wasn't made to convince people that I'm right. If you think the game holds a future for you, then I recommend that you buy it. Its purpose was to explain, to those who cared, that the uncertain future is the reason I will no longer be around.
And that's what it came down to. Do I stay with the game and get burned by another MMO, even when I see it coming, or do I cut my losses and avoid spending money on a game I have no faith in? I chose to play it cautious, for once.
You were 100% on board with this game until the API changes. I think the highlighted statements and much of your blog post are a bunch of hot air that you may even be telling yourself in an effort to justify your stance of not playing due to your anger about that one decision. Hey I've done the same thing at times - something really pisses me off and then I look for a lot of other things to fuel that anger passion, even though those things weren't as big of a deal before the one thing really pissed me off. And if the API changes were a big enough deal to you then there is nothing wrong with quitting over it - we all have our things. But these last 2 paragraphs here, come on, lol. You're quitting because you're "not convinced the game can survive in the mmo market." ppssshhhhhhh
i don't see what wrong with that being his reason for leaving that was my number reason for leaving,the games (eso) end-game is very shallow and the big bg gets old real fast.
i don't see what wrong with that being his reason for leaving that was my number reason for leaving,the games (eso) end-game is very shallow and the big bg gets old real fast.
It's because he's being "chicken little" saying that the "sky is falling'.
Even if the game isn't great, there is no way this game, doesn't survive in the current mmo market.
The PC and console sales should easily cover the costs that were incurred to make the game. Anything extra income after that will be gravy.
We heard the same kind of nonsense just before the launch of SWTOR and it's one of the biggest mmo's currently, with some of the highest mmo revenue.
People seem to be so narcissistic that they confuse personal preference with how a game will actually perform financially.
i don't see what wrong with that being his reason for leaving that was my number reason for leaving,the games (eso) end-game is very shallow and the big bg gets old real fast.
It's because he's being "chicken little" saying that the "sky is falling'.
Exactly. There is a huge difference between just saying "I'm leaving because I hate, X, Y and Z" --which is perfectly legit -- and adding "Oh, BTW, the game is going to fail."
A distinction many in this thread seem to be struggling with.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
He didn't mention PvP at all, so I don't put much weight into his article. Although I've bought the CE, modern MMORPG's have about a 95% chance of not holding my interest past month 2. They are just too trite and made for the simpleton masses.
Goes for software in general. First thing you learn in Computer Science is that EVERY single piece of software, has a bug in it, even something as simple as a C++ calculator that takes 10 minutes max to program has a bug in it even if you programmed it perfectly (try to divide something by 0 lol). Your OS (even Mac, although Mac lies in their commercials and says they don't, but that's a different thread lol), your Microsoft Office, Corel, Photoshop, IE, Firefox, Chrome, Apps, everything has bugs. If you don't want to use anything with bugs, you shouldn't be on a computer
That is what exception handling is for and most of my short programs have 0 bugs in them. My first "Hello World" program had ZERO bugs thank you very much. But that is probably because I'm pro.
The author of this text is a long term beta tester (if I remember correct 9+ months) and did level up several characters to LVL 50 already. He was aswell a moderator at the tamrielfoundry forums.
Very well written and worth the read. The part that stood out the most for me was (paraphrasing):
This will inevitably go F2P...
As someone who finds it difficult to come up with 60$, this invariably answers my own personal question of whether or not I will play. I suppose I'll still keep my eyes open for City State's Camelot Unchained. I have hope that they will at least stay true to their original vision.
Every new MMO is a bridge to the next where hopefully one day I'll get that feeling I had over 10 years ago. It probably wont happen until there's a significant shift but gotta keep crossing them bridges to see.
I really don't care what Isarri's opinion is. He's played the game hardcore (more hours than normal people can spend on a game) for almost a year. Now, release is coming and all his work is going to be wiped so he'll have to start all over again. So he'd rather play something new and fresh. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does play since this is where most people are going to be a for a while.
His gripes are minuscule and they actually don't really matter to most people, he is just burned out and doesn't want to start over. Using his subjective opinion he comes up with a few things that he feels may come true, but they have yet to happen so no reason not to gives this game a try.
This is the spiritual successor to DAoC. No game since DAoC has come close to giving you the same experience, but this game does! That is a big deal, a very big deal. Right now the PvP is epic and fun, I ran into no game-breaking bugs while out there too.
Most interesting: apparently ESO *was* like I wanted it to be: like a normal MMO set in Tamriel. With minimap and nametags, and then it was just altered to appear more like the single player game.
An odd move, I must say. It would make sense if the game was designed like a single player game, but it isn't. It's a normal MMO sans all the functionality of a MMO. Teh.
("Go back to WoW" argument in 3...2...1....)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by JemAs666 lol thanks for sharing. I can sleep tonight knowing this one person isn't playing. I mean seriously this is a human being not unlike the other human beings. This person isn't anyone special and I could care less if they play or not. I am glad they think so highly of themselves that them not playing makes any difference.
It must have hit a nerve, if almost 300 replies happen within a few hours, don't you agree?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Most interesting: apparently ESO *was* like I wanted it to be: like a normal MMO set in Tamriel. With minimap and nametags, and then it was just altered to appear more like the single player game.
An odd move, I must say. It would make sense if the game was designed like a single player game, but it isn't. It's a normal MMO sans all the functionality of a MMO. Teh.
("Go back to WoW" argument in 3...2...1....)
there is an add-0n for minimaps not an issue anymore
i don't see what wrong with that being his reason for leaving that was my number reason for leaving,the games (eso) end-game is very shallow and the big bg gets old real fast.
It's because he's being "chicken little" saying that the "sky is falling'.
Exactly. There is a huge difference between just saying "I'm leaving because I hate, X, Y and Z" --which is perfectly legit -- and adding "Oh, BTW, the game is going to fail."
A distinction many in this thread seem to be struggling with.
Doesn't mean its any less of a person's opinion or freedom of speech to state that.
OP's article link was a great read. The author made a lot of solid points and backed up each one. He also seems like a true gamer, something I can really appreciate.
There is no logical answer he could possibly give to this after including what you have in green. I mean, did the game not get better in the last month due to the patch updates? In fact he addresses how it opens up which was a concern of the early reviewers. Now people are in the open world right away thanks to patch V.18. Really wish he would just admit how ridiculous he looks from the time of what you pointed out.
Well no, it didn't.
Most of the game's balance issues remain unfixed, including the Templars being wedged into a single armor type, but also bugs like half of the Nightblade passives not doing anything at all. Heavy armor is completely useless for anyone. Light Armor is very tanky in PvP because of the magic resist, and if you want to tank in PvE, you should be playing a Dragonknight or a Sorcerer to be able to tank in Light and receive its resource management bonuses.
There are more bugs. Broken quests, a bug that prevented some people from weapon swapping, and other fun things that probably won't be fixed before launch.
An across the board regen nerf has made combat less enjoyable for all classes, as it puts more of an emphasis on light/heavy attacks and less on ability use. This is personal preference.
Skipping the start zone was quickly and poorly implemented. The leveling curve is pretty broken to where you don't really want to skip the starter islands, but if you do, you're going to be greatly over-leveled for the next zone. The choice also isn't being presented in a way that makes sense to new players.
Allowing you to skip Coldharbour on subsequent characters was a good idea, but the move to no longer allow you to choose a weapon type while in it is nonsensical and odd.
Experience in public dungeons has been heavily nerfed, only serving to reinforce that questing is mandatory no matter what your play style. This also means that VR10 players have no effective ways to level new skills once they've ran out of quests.
The Cyrodiil quests were overpowered in the experience they gave, but changing them to daily quests without features that support a daily grind mean that people probably won't be doing them. They don't really give anything the over-world quests don't (and while marginally useful for leveling skills at VR cap, that would take forever with the daily limitation), and there's no incentive to keep doing them to work towards rewards ala World of Warcraft dailies. I could see this getting added in the future, though.
The Adventure Zones were officially pushed beyond launch during the last month, and the lack of testing or any information on them leads me to believe that they will not be present in a functional state any time soon.
My opinions on the cash shop and the API are already known, both of which occurred during the last month, as well as the Reddit AMA which reaffirmed fears associated with the future intent these changes represent.
And lastly, of course, I simply have more experience with the game now than I did when writing the review. At that point I had just barely entered VR content, for reference, and I knew less about the game than I do now. The standard being presented here, that opinions and perceptions cannot change when new information becomes available, really isn't reasonable.
This isn't to say that there have not been good changes. There definitely have been some. Overall though, I have no trouble saying that the game less to my liking in its current state than it was a month ago.
I think that your gaming career might be over if you plan to apply this level of expectations to any MMO that you are going to play. Your comments make me wonder how experienced of an MMO gamer you are. Due to the current F2P environment in MMOs, some players cannot distinguish between a live F2P game and beta game. During beta, there should be balance issues and bugs in beta and a few left over after launch. During beta, the API should not have a high priority and it shouldn't be perfect. Anything that can be abused should just be shut off until after launch when there is time to look at it. About a month or so before release, the only high priority items should be getting the game ready to launch successfully AKA not having a Diablo 3 launch.
Of all of the stuff you are saying, the only thing you've said that can be properly judged before the game even launched is the Cash Shop thing. I completely understand being upset about that. It bugs me too. However, nothing else you've said should really be getting judged before the game has launched and the first few patches come in.
Comments
BTW = we are pretty pleased with the beta on sunlight, though some people have reported getting burnt out pretty bad already... but then again, they've been in it for the past 9 months
just saying
all i can say to the op is lol
plays literally 2 - 3 yrs in 9 months in a beta ,GETS BURNT OUT, then gets upset.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
The real issue was never about addons or the API
The only reason the addon debate is such a big one is because there are some glaring limitations with the games unmodified UI, and the UI is one of the most important parts of any game. You are correct that the amount of people quitting over it right now is tiny in the grand scheme of things, but once people start to progress and getting to some of the more challenging content the cracks in the UI will start to become apparent and what is now tiny will start to grow.
SWTOR is a prime example of game that released with too limited (but still much better than ESO) A UI and lost quite a lot of subs over it, so much so that they rushed out big update with much fanfare that was pretty much just UI improvements.
Point is if you think the UI isn't going to be a big issue you are kidding yourself
I love how the people on here moan and try to reinforce themselves and their ideals. now I read the guys post and it sounds quite informative and well put together with detailed facts that he uses to give evidence and merit behind what he is saying. Now, with MMO's we always live in uncertain times and they appear to be more of a gamble than anything else these days which is why it is important to have these critics with extensive play time have their voice heard.
It is about consumer awareness and the more of it we have the better. Now, what he said might not change your view of the game and you might still buy into it and get a lot of enjoyment out it, this is something he says in his blog also. But, his main concern is that the lasting appeal to the game is not there, that the game is not user friendly with regards to a few informative mechanics and that the companies word has been shady at best.
Now, I could easily say that:
1) he played 9 months of a game with no content updates, so, on a basis that content is updated regular when live the life of the game might not be an issue.
2) I have no reference to relate to with him about the end game information on the UI, whether there is to much or too little. I imagine that the company either the company focused on what they believed mattered most, or that the information itself is something only relevant to small sections of gaming community and as such would be best suited as an addon created by the community rather than resources being spent on it. Of course, no idea how important this is at this stage, but, the only have a finite amount of resources to spend and they opted to not focus on that one.
3) The transition from P2P to F2P will irk a lot of people, especially those whom pay a box price or collectors additions. Now, they might be looking to just simply go down a hybrid model like WoW is because they see that as the best way to monetise the game, but I would agree that putting resources in place to allow a seamless F2P transition does not invoke consumer confidence. Neither does having the developers change their minds or go against information they previously said.
Now, I can understand that marketing and business decisions are made for the betterment for both the company and their consumers but in a world of MMOs once Subscription now F2P this will worry a lot of people.
In short, I will be giving this game a go, why not, I waste a bit of money and time and hopefully I get some enjoyment out of it. However I welcome more feedback and critique about the game.
These people are doing us all a favour by keeping us updated and whether you agree with him or not you should be thankful for the time he put in trying to help.
That's a LOT of words to say what I've been saying all along. ESO is a weak ES game and a weak MMORPG.
I've actually been calling it an abomination all along, but that's just because I like both ES and MMORPGs and don't like seeing the blend of the two - it was a bad idea to begin with and ended up being garbage.
I'd rather see a more typical MMORPG (WildStar was delightful to play in my first beta weekend recently vs the sleep inducing boredom every attempt to play ESO yielded) or ES VI with the addition of player hosted co-op, since the only thing IMO that could make Skyrim better is to make it bigger and more of everything, and to enjoy it with a very few select friends.
The MMORPG genre could use a spark to show what it's capable of and rekindle magic lost. ESO is not that spark, it's just another blemish on the failings of modern MMORPG designs and ideas.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
i don't see what wrong with that being his reason for leaving that was my number reason for leaving,the games (eso) end-game is very shallow and the big bg gets old real fast.
It's because he's being "chicken little" saying that the "sky is falling'.
Even if the game isn't great, there is no way this game, doesn't survive in the current mmo market.
The PC and console sales should easily cover the costs that were incurred to make the game. Anything extra income after that will be gravy.
We heard the same kind of nonsense just before the launch of SWTOR and it's one of the biggest mmo's currently, with some of the highest mmo revenue.
People seem to be so narcissistic that they confuse personal preference with how a game will actually perform financially.
Exactly. There is a huge difference between just saying "I'm leaving because I hate, X, Y and Z" --which is perfectly legit -- and adding "Oh, BTW, the game is going to fail."
A distinction many in this thread seem to be struggling with.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That is what exception handling is for and most of my short programs have 0 bugs in them. My first "Hello World" program had ZERO bugs thank you very much. But that is probably because I'm pro.
i can't believe this thread is still going, let the dude have his opinion and move on geez.
it's the angry joe shit all over again only worse....
Very well written and worth the read. The part that stood out the most for me was (paraphrasing):
This will inevitably go F2P...
As someone who finds it difficult to come up with 60$, this invariably answers my own personal question of whether or not I will play. I suppose I'll still keep my eyes open for City State's Camelot Unchained. I have hope that they will at least stay true to their original vision.
I don't even see the problem.
Every new MMO is a bridge to the next where hopefully one day I'll get that feeling I had over 10 years ago. It probably wont happen until there's a significant shift but gotta keep crossing them bridges to see.
Pretty well shot yourself in the foot right there.....
I really don't care what Isarri's opinion is. He's played the game hardcore (more hours than normal people can spend on a game) for almost a year. Now, release is coming and all his work is going to be wiped so he'll have to start all over again. So he'd rather play something new and fresh. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does play since this is where most people are going to be a for a while.
His gripes are minuscule and they actually don't really matter to most people, he is just burned out and doesn't want to start over. Using his subjective opinion he comes up with a few things that he feels may come true, but they have yet to happen so no reason not to gives this game a try.
This is the spiritual successor to DAoC. No game since DAoC has come close to giving you the same experience, but this game does! That is a big deal, a very big deal. Right now the PvP is epic and fun, I ran into no game-breaking bugs while out there too.
Look at 'em sheeps, worshiping their copy-pasta.
Till they are yelling loud enough the MMO genre will never evolve.
It's not about yelling. It's about money.
People can yell all they want, it won't matter if the game makes money.
Most interesting: apparently ESO *was* like I wanted it to be: like a normal MMO set in Tamriel. With minimap and nametags, and then it was just altered to appear more like the single player game.
An odd move, I must say. It would make sense if the game was designed like a single player game, but it isn't. It's a normal MMO sans all the functionality of a MMO. Teh.
("Go back to WoW" argument in 3...2...1....)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It must have hit a nerve, if almost 300 replies happen within a few hours, don't you agree?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
there is an add-0n for minimaps not an issue anymore
Doesn't mean its any less of a person's opinion or freedom of speech to state that.
OP's article link was a great read. The author made a lot of solid points and backed up each one. He also seems like a true gamer, something I can really appreciate.
I think that your gaming career might be over if you plan to apply this level of expectations to any MMO that you are going to play. Your comments make me wonder how experienced of an MMO gamer you are. Due to the current F2P environment in MMOs, some players cannot distinguish between a live F2P game and beta game. During beta, there should be balance issues and bugs in beta and a few left over after launch. During beta, the API should not have a high priority and it shouldn't be perfect. Anything that can be abused should just be shut off until after launch when there is time to look at it. About a month or so before release, the only high priority items should be getting the game ready to launch successfully AKA not having a Diablo 3 launch.
Of all of the stuff you are saying, the only thing you've said that can be properly judged before the game even launched is the Cash Shop thing. I completely understand being upset about that. It bugs me too. However, nothing else you've said should really be getting judged before the game has launched and the first few patches come in.