I have yet to see that not happen. And I'm not just talking about pay to win either.
In any case, I don't really know what I would do if this game got an in game cash shop. My gut reaction is to leave. But its so hard to find an mmo with crafting this good.
I'm not going to worry about it right now.
The pull of the dark side is indeed strong, but I do believe it's possible to keep a Cash Shop "honest".
Blizzard have managed to avoid the (no doubt huge) temptation to massively expand the WoW Cash Shop. I think Square might be capable of keeping their Cash Shop genuinely "optional" as well.
As long as the subs meet expectations and the company sees the Cash Shop income as an extra bonus, all should be well. It's when the CS income becomes the entire focus that things go wrong...
Q: Could I put the Guardian Cub up on the auction house to try to make some gold if I wanted to?
While our goal is to offer players alternative ways to add a Pet Store pet to their collection, we’re ok with it if some players choose to use the Guardian Cub as a safe and secure way to try to acquire a little extra in-game gold without turning to third-party gold-selling services.
for me, that crosses the line for a sub game -- of cash to gold
Originally posted by eyelolled I wish these games would just start out as B2P instead of talking about how they believe in the subscription payment model and then pretending it doesn't matter afterwards. And even though I am a absolute B2P/F2P player, I still think that it is a sign of failure to change it up a year later. It's a failure to have the integrity to represent all the intentions from the outset.
Its called being overconfident about your product. Maybe SE was under impression and firmly believed that FFXIV 2.0 would be an enormous success and since that didn't happen and they saw how all other MMOS are doing great business with hybrid models reality finally struck them and opened their eyes.
Well here's two individuals who didn't even bother reading the interview, haha.
Yoshida took F2P into consideration back in 2011. Yoshida continues to take F2P into consideration in 2014. Forum response? "Finally they opened their eyes."
What did you think was Yoshida's stance before? Not even acknowledging the F2P model?
Umm the guy you quoted didn't even say anything about Yoshida's consideration about F2P in past.
What he said was that maybe FFXIV wasn't such a big success as SE expected. If you are going to accuse him for not reading ake sure you do the same..no?
What Yoshida said, in case you really can't tell, was a purely hypothetical and for the sake of discussion kind of statement, it was a developers conference after all, there's no signs they are thinking of implementing it in any length of the forseeable future (the game's doing pretty well after all), hell he even mentioned how it fits other kinds of online game better.
He talked about it just as he talked about a bunch of other stuff, since it IS a widely talked about topic regarding online games, and he IS there to give his opinion on stuff from his experience since that IS the point of the event.
What really amazes me is how everyone, especially those who don't usually care about this section of the forums(or the game) come jumping on this while ignoring the huge patch coming at the same time.
Do you people love the F2P MMORPG drama this much ? I'm starting to think some people like it more than the games themselves lol
TLDR - Everyone's making a big deal out of nothing, and i wonder how this still amazes me xD
The end of subs is upon us....... if FF14 goes free to play then there is zero hope of ESO / Wildstar to succeed with their subs.... No Hating ! No Doomsaying ! FF series has trillions of fans across the globe, if they cannot withstand the free to play market and sub drops then no other studio can.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Foomerang"Don't let the model dictate the game."I have yet to see that not happen. And I'm not just talking about pay to win either.In any case, I don't really know what I would do if this game got an in game cash shop. My gut reaction is to leave. But its so hard to find an mmo with crafting this good. I'm not going to worry about it right now.
If they did drop the sub requirement and you still play it would be fun to roll on your server.
I really doubt that is going to happen, or anytime soon if it does. The article is really vague so who's to say how it would happen.
Originally posted by eyelolled I wish these games would just start out as B2P instead of talking about how they believe in the subscription payment model and then pretending it doesn't matter afterwards. And even though I am a absolute B2P/F2P player, I still think that it is a sign of failure to change it up a year later. It's a failure to have the integrity to represent all the intentions from the outset.
Its called being overconfident about your product. Maybe SE was under impression and firmly believed that FFXIV 2.0 would be an enormous success and since that didn't happen and they saw how all other MMOS are doing great business with hybrid models reality finally struck them and opened their eyes.
Well here's two individuals who didn't even bother reading the interview, haha.
Yoshida took F2P into consideration back in 2011. Yoshida continues to take F2P into consideration in 2014. Forum response? "Finally they opened their eyes."
What did you think was Yoshida's stance before? Not even acknowledging the F2P model?
Umm the guy you quoted didn't even say anything about Yoshida's consideration about F2P in past.
What he said was that maybe FFXIV wasn't such a big success as SE expected. If you are going to accuse him for not reading ake sure you do the same..no?
What he said was based on the idea that Yoshida hadn't considered F2P in the past (meaning he would consider F2P now that ARR wasn't as big of a success than he hoped). A flawed thinking I then corrected.
Because all the information here is just rephrased from 2011 you can't possibly come to any conclusions about the success of ARR from it. We already have the quarterly results from SE stating ARR is a greater success than they anticipated. Maybe that isn't the case anymore, but the producer stating things from 2011 is hardly a proof of that.
All this community debacle tells us is that the community can't handle an extremely frank man in charge.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by eyelolled I wish these games would just start out as B2P instead of talking about how they believe in the subscription payment model and then pretending it doesn't matter afterwards. And even though I am a absolute B2P/F2P player, I still think that it is a sign of failure to change it up a year later. It's a failure to have the integrity to represent all the intentions from the outset.
Its called being overconfident about your product. Maybe SE was under impression and firmly believed that FFXIV 2.0 would be an enormous success and since that didn't happen and they saw how all other MMOS are doing great business with hybrid models reality finally struck them and opened their eyes.
Well here's two individuals who didn't even bother reading the interview, haha.
Yoshida took F2P into consideration back in 2011. Yoshida continues to take F2P into consideration in 2014. Forum response? "Finally they opened their eyes."
What did you think was Yoshida's stance before? Not even acknowledging the F2P model?
Umm the guy you quoted didn't even say anything about Yoshida's consideration about F2P in past.
What he said was that maybe FFXIV wasn't such a big success as SE expected. If you are going to accuse him for not reading ake sure you do the same..no?
What he said was based on the idea that Yoshida hadn't considered F2P in the past (meaning he would consider F2P now that ARR wasn't as big of a success than he hoped). A flawed thinking I then corrected.
Because all the information here is just rephrased from 2011 you can't possibly come to any conclusions about the success of ARR from it. We already have the quarterly results from SE stating ARR is a greater success than they anticipated. Maybe that isn't the case anymore, but the producer stating things from 2011 is hardly a proof of that.
All this community debacle tells us is that the community can't handle an extremely frank man in charge.
The game did way better than they expected at launch, and even now right at the end of the last major patch it still is holding
500k players who log in every day + more( he mentioned the number to be substantially higher than that if you take in account people who log in every now and then), which is clearly noticeable by just playing the game anyway(the fact that it still has loads of active people). xD
Indeed the dev team has been doing a very good job of keeping up with what they say
Future is for hybrid models and not for pure P2P or F2P models. Yoshida is quite an intelligent guy and he sees that.
By making FFXIV hybrid they will only make more profit and not less.
the true hybrid model can only work well by following 3 important factors:
1- Fully free players get some limitations they can unlock in cash shop, plus the standard cash shop items.
2- People who bought the game but are playing without subs dont need game limitations because they purchased the game, but they can buy cosmetic items and account services in the cash shop too.
3- Subscribers get the full game just like the #2, but they also get everything in the cash shop (in game stuff like cosmetics, fluff, mounts, pets, etc) for free as a subscription perk.
MMO companies who dont do this are doing it wrong and eventually see their game fail and become pay to win. They rather become greedy and kill their own game for short term quick money instead of finding a good balance to benefit both company (devs/pubs) and consumers (players)
Where exactly is 500k paying subs, viewed as a failure (that number is solely from accounts that log in everyday)? The initial sales exceeded their expectations. It would seem that the current number of players playing the game are quite content with the sub model.
The sub model is currently responsible for the rich content patches the game receives. SE is laying a very thick foundation for it's first year. Why would you even think they would change what is already successful? (Successful enough for Yoshi-P and company to work on 3.0 development) The initial release of ffxiv 1.0, was a total failure, and at that time it was discussed FtP model, 2.0 is much more successful than 1.0. , has kept SE in the black.
There maybe a cash shop for extra things like retainers and fluff items, but I don't see the sub model going away anytime soon.
If content delivery from SE remains consistent with it's current pace and depth, what I can see happening is there will be a defined level of expectation of how much content is in a sub model as opposed to FtP or BtP, raising the bar on how much content there is on a patch per patch basis on a sub model.
This will definitely keep expectations of smaller companies to deliver lots of content, if they expect to keep a sub model, high. I personally think that's what was needed in a sub model, depth of content. Bigger bang for the buck sort of speak.
What Yoshida said, in case you really can't tell, was a purely hypothetical and for the sake of discussion kind of statement, it was a developers conference after all, there's no signs they are thinking of implementing it in any length of the forseeable future (the game's doing pretty well after all), hell he even mentioned how it fits other kinds of online game better.
He talked about it just as he talked about a bunch of other stuff, since it IS a widely talked about topic regarding online games, and he IS there to give his opinion on stuff from his experience since that IS the point of the event.
What really amazes me is how everyone, especially those who don't usually care about this section of the forums(or the game) come jumping on this while ignoring the huge patch coming at the same time.
Do you people love the F2P MMORPG drama this much ? I'm starting to think some people like it more than the games themselves lol
TLDR - Everyone's making a big deal out of nothing, and i wonder how this still amazes me xD
We all read the same article. We all read the same quotes. It requires no interpretation.
He stated, unequivocally, that they would like to sell in-game items. That's not a "hypothetical". That's a clear statement of something they would like to do. It's a pretty safe bet that "something they would like to do", is something they actually will do at some point.
He clearly stated that to think they would never consider F2P for ARR would be a "mistake". Again, nothing unequivocal about that. Now, him saying that by itself is not the point people have raised here. What is the point raised is that it flies completely in the face of the many people who have insisted that he, Yoshi-P, had said they would take the game offline before going F2P. He never said it in the first place, and this statement from him absolutely buries it.
What's funny about it, is how - once again - the tireless defenders of this game completely change their arguments on a dime, and pretend everything that's been said in the past somehow never happened.
Almost overnight, the argument literally went from this:
Poster: "This game could well go F2P in some form, perhaps in the first 6 months to a year or so. They're following the standard themepark model and just about every sub-based themepark to come out in the last several years has gone that way. So, it wouldn't be a surprise if SE decided to go that way with XIV as well".
Die-Hard Fan: "Stop trolling! Yoshi-P said they would shut down ARR before going F2P! It won't happen! If you hate the game so much then just go away!"
To this:
Poster: "As we'd said, F2P is something that could well happen to ARR, and now Yoshi-P has said so himself. The people who said "they'd shut it down before going F2P" were wrong".
Die-Hard Fan A (spinning what was actually said): "You people are misunderstanding! It's all hypothetical! What he actually meant was... -insert out-of-context spin-job interpretation of Yoshi-P's actual words blended with obvious wishful thinking here-"
Die-Hard Fan B (Revising and/or ignoring recent history): Well of course they would consider that! Yoshi-P's a smart business man, and he knows what's good for the game. Anyone who actually thought F2P wouldn't be a consideration is obviously just an idiot, or a troll".
It's the same thing all the time. Yoshi-P could come out making completely contradictory statements every day, and die-hard fans would just keep changing their arguments to make sure he remained nice and snug up on the pedestal they've placed him on. So long as the mission is to insist that "Yoshi-P can do no wrong", everything else is liquid.
If only some of you people could step outside yourselves and take an objective look at the things you say, the way you hop from one foot to the other and back again, saying whatever you have to, contradicting yourselves without a second thought, just to defend your game.
And by the way.. I say this being an actual active player of ARR. I enjoy the game. I'm just objective and honest enough to see and acknowledge its issues. Believe it or not, you can like something, still see its flaws or "less than great parts", and still be critical of them. They're not mutually exclusive.
It sounds pretty much like they'll never have to go free to play to pay back their investors, in fact it sounds like if they went free to play they would consider that 'giving up'. By his own words...
From the information linked in OP: "If there's an impression that I'm determined to stick to a subscription service, that's a mistake." - By his own words...
I think people are reading a little bit too much into what he has said and blowing it a bit out of context. The game, in its second incarnation pretty much saved Square-Enix from a lot of bad business choices. The fact that Yoshi is not running for president of the entire country is beyond me. The point I am getting at is that the guy is a miracle worker, but he succeeded as he understand the MMO market for both East and West.
He is saying that he understands that the F2P model is a popular choice, but he believes that a lot of companies have been switching to F2P model not because it is best for the game, but as a counter measure to fight against the games not succeeding. This measure worked wonders for SWTOR for example. But, if SWTOR had a stable player base, Bioware would of never considered F2P, they did so, to survive.
As such, he is aware of the social stigma of going from a sub based game to a F2P game and he is saying that 'should' they take the game in that direction its because they believe it would give players a better experience. However going F2P goes against Final Fantasy's journey.
They wish to dedicate all the time into content creation, as such we are coming up to the 2nd update which are massive updates to the game. So, going F2P for them, might be successful but the resources for content would be split (and the example used is 70/30 split) between content creation and paid items creation.
He does not want to do this, although he states they have had a lot of demand for paid content which like the character change potion and other services. Considering the success WoW has with this system he would be a fool not to explore it.
As of right now, Final Fantasy 14 is stable, it has a large population and if a player was to cancel their sub for a month or two the chances are that they will return to do the new content. This is how I am playing the game personally, I have done all of 2.1 content, cancelled sub, re-subbing with 2.2 and I'll be rinsing and repeating.
A lot of players will behave like me, some might just keep their subs going regardless, but let's say every 3 months is a large update. I get 2 months of fun out of it, so I am still paying for eight months out of 12 for a sub with this game which income wise would be a considerable amount of money when compared to F2P I would only buy cosmetics now and then.
He is saying that he understands that the F2P model is a popular choice, but he believes that a lot of companies have been switching to F2P model not because it is best for the game, but as a counter measure to fight against the games not succeeding. This measure worked wonders for SWTOR for example. But, if SWTOR had a stable player base, Bioware would of never considered F2P, they did so, to survive.
TOR did have a stable player base. It just wasn't a large enough base to make them as much money as they wanted the product to be making. They said, time after time, that they would break even at 500k subscribers, and prior to adding the free option, they never dropped below that number. Did they need the switch to *thrive* like they have since? Almost certainly. But there is no evidence that survival was ever a problem.
If FFXIV sees it's subscriber numbers drop far enough at some point, it won't matter whether they stabilize or if the game is technically making enough to survive, because Square will decide they want more money and adjust the model accordingly.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
He is saying that he understands that the F2P model is a popular choice, but he believes that a lot of companies have been switching to F2P model not because it is best for the game, but as a counter measure to fight against the games not succeeding. This measure worked wonders for SWTOR for example. But, if SWTOR had a stable player base, Bioware would of never considered F2P, they did so, to survive.
TOR did have a stable player base. It just wasn't a large enough base to make them as much money as they wanted the product to be making. They said, time after time, that they would break even at 500k subscribers, and prior to adding the free option, they never dropped below that number. Did they need the switch to *thrive* like they have since? Almost certainly. But there is no evidence that survival was ever a problem.
If FFXIV sees it's subscriber numbers drop far enough at some point, it won't matter whether they stabilize or if the game is technically making enough to survive, because Square will decide they want more money and adjust the model accordingly.
Yoshida has been quite vocal about this trend too. SW:TOR was burdened by the investors' demands and had to turn to F2P because that usually means better returns on investment, sooner. TOR had a sizeable playerbase, probably much higher than what ARR is sporting today. The playerbase did not meet the investors' expectations though so it didn't matter.
ARR's playerbase has met and exceeded SE's expectations while SE is the only party financing the game. There are no investors to please. For SE making the game into a long-term cash cow akin to XI makes more sense than a quick return on investment. SE is one of the very few companies that have the opportunity to finance an MMO themselves.
To draw a direct comparison, FFXI has lost most of its playerbase in the last few years (current number is somewhere between 100k and 200k I think) but the game is still a P2P title. They haven't switched to F2P because the people playing the game prefer it to stay P2P. To go F2P your game needs to be able to attract a sizeable new customer base. FFXI is too old for that to happen. If ARR lives old enough as a P2P title while its growth opportunities shrink, it will never go completely F2P.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
To go F2P your game needs to be able to attract a sizeable new customer base. FFXI is too old for that to happen. If ARR lives old enough as a P2P title while its growth opportunities shrink, it will never go completely F2P.
No game is ever too old to make the change from P2P to F2P; it can happen to FFXI. Age doesn't grant a MMORPG immunity (or near immunity) from changing business models. The only exception would be if a game were tied due to licensing issues (like Warhammer Online) in which case the company loses complete interest and allows the game to be placed under maintenance mode (with very little to no updates for years) eventually leading to its closure.
No game is ever too old to make the change from P2P to F2P; it can happen to FFXI. Age doesn't grant a MMORPG immunity (or near immunity) from changing business models. The only exception would be if a game were tied due to licensing issues (like Warhammer Online) in which case the company loses complete interest and allows the game to be placed under maintenance mode (with very little to no updates for years) eventually leading to its closure.
Age doesn't directly dictate the decision, but it is entirely possible that if a population gets small enough that the company would decide it doesn't make sense to bother with the expense of converting rather than shutting down.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
To go F2P your game needs to be able to attract a sizeable new customer base. FFXI is too old for that to happen. If ARR lives old enough as a P2P title while its growth opportunities shrink, it will never go completely F2P.
No game is ever too old to make the change from P2P to F2P; it can happen to FFXI. Age doesn't grant a MMORPG immunity (or near immunity) from changing business models. The only exception would be if a game were tied due to licensing issues (like Warhammer Online) in which case the company loses complete interest and allows the game to be placed under maintenance mode (with very little to no updates for years) eventually leading to its closure.
When your game is so dated that it doesn't have any projected growth opportunities while your core playerbase prefers P2P the immunity is pretty much set in stone. Unless the company makes a bad business decision and switches anyway. Who are going to be the "whales" of this new F2P system that pay the bills? New players that may not be attracted to a game with dated design even if it were free? Old players that may be simply alienated by the payment model switch?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
To go F2P your game needs to be able to attract a sizeable new customer base. FFXI is too old for that to happen. If ARR lives old enough as a P2P title while its growth opportunities shrink, it will never go completely F2P.
No game is ever too old to make the change from P2P to F2P; it can happen to FFXI. Age doesn't grant a MMORPG immunity (or near immunity) from changing business models. The only exception would be if a game were tied due to licensing issues (like Warhammer Online) in which case the company loses complete interest and allows the game to be placed under maintenance mode (with very little to no updates for years) eventually leading to its closure.
When your game is so dated that it doesn't have any projected growth opportunities while your core playerbase prefers P2P the immunity is pretty much set in stone. Unless the company makes a bad business decision and switches anyway. Who are going to be the "whales" of this new F2P system that pay the bills? New players that may not be attracted to a game with dated design even if it were free? Old players that may be simply alienated by the payment model switch?
The core playerbase preferring the P2P business model has very little to do on whether a game goes F2P or not (once the company has decided to make the switch internally). Some companies do quarterly or up to annual forecasting to see how population growth/decline will look like in the near future. If that population ends up being small enough (or they conclude that the population will continue to decline) where it isn't profitable (or not profitable enough) a company has two choices at that point. They can shut down or go F2P.
Usually a company won't wait till the very last minute (some won't give a damn and post that they are placing the game under maintenance mode or like some 3rd rate South Korean companies do: shut down with no warning). I actually had to make a post about a game that launched on November 2013, but abruptly closed last week. This can happen with indie titles or extremely niche titles that can't even fill up more than 1 server. I honestly don't think that Square Enix is going to follow suit and close down such a huge IP (easily one of the top 10 IPs out there from the 650 games listed here) without looking into other options.
Nothing is set in stone in the MMORPG world and you should know this being such a long time member here as well as in BG. EverQuest I went F2P 13 years after its release. So if a game that launched in 1999 can go F2P so can others.
There are only 6 games (released prior to 2005) that currently use the P2P business model exclusively. Dark Age of Camelot might follow the same footsteps as Warhammer Online did (due to the example I gave above about Mythic Entertainment). A Tale in the Desert has not received any major updates in about 3 years and it was announced a couple of days ago that the game was handed over completely to another management and development company. We don't know if they will make the switch other than it is acknowledged by the company that it is currently under maintenance mode. Vendetta Online and World of Warcraft have talked about the F2P model in the past. That just leaves EVE Online from that group. I can't find any article or interview that talked about the F2P model with CCP... but it doesn't surprise me either.
Almost every single AAA title has at least tried to transition to the F2P model (there are some exceptions to some key games from 2005-2008) but that’s another story. Every other game has tried it and FFXI will probably be no exception... unless of course it wants to follow down the road of the typical 3rd rate South Korean browser game and sign off with a Moogle saying "Tanaka is so kawaii and goodbye!" over at Playonline.com.
Yup, in the span of 1 week Yoshida has gone from an iconic dev passionate about his game and its fans to just another corporate tool looking to milk its fans for a quick buck. First he annouces they plan to start selling more bank slots (a very f2p item) ... now he's considering f2p.
Oh and god forbid you point it out in their forums ... apparently saying so goes against the ToS where you cant
"-post seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FFXIV, or others.
-criticize either SE staff of specific individuals."
In other words, dont say anything bad about SE or theyll ban you for a week, lol.
Needless to say I immediately quit and will probably wait a few months. This little microtransaction stunt only ended up losing them more ... at least from my end. In this and other SE products.
Originally posted by Kayo45Yup, in the span of 1 week Yoshida has gone from an iconic dev passionate about his game and its fans to just another corporate tool looking to milk its fans for a quick buck. First he annouces they plan to start selling more bank slots (a very f2p item) ... now he's considering f2p.Oh and god forbid you point it out in their forums ... apparently saying so goes against the ToS where you cant "-post seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FFXIV, or others.-criticize either SE staff of specific individuals."In other words, dont say anything bad about SE or theyll ban you for a week, lol.Needless to say I immediately quit and will probably wait a few months. This little microtransaction stunt only ended up losing them more ... at least from my end. In this and other SE products.
I read stuff like this all the time. Although most of the time the person was being anything but civil not to mention breaking forum rules but hey I'm sure you didn't do any of that.
Word for word what they copied to me on the email.
"Im all for SE making more money but how about they do so honestly? How about they make a great game, publish quality content, and above all not give players the finger for make a quick buck? No? Then they deserve the financial troubles theyre in. Im on entry level sub right now ... you want to know how SE couldve made more money off me? By removing the alt mail restrictions. Then id have a reason to give them the 1 or 2 extra dollars they want a month from me.
But no ... they decided to restrict such things, give us some b/s about it being because of gold spammers, then turn around and try and sell us more bank space. Now, not only am I that much closer to calling it quits and going to one of the upcoming MMO's, im even less inclined to support SE anymore or believe any promises Yoshida makes.
They can for one, make quality FF games and stop shoehorning sequels nobody wants but more importantly show us they not only need but appreciate us for supporting them and listen to its community. Something BTW, which Yoshida did very very well up until last week. Now he's seemingly doing a 180 on his whole philosophy double dipping on us with its sub+microtransaction bank space and openness to F2P payment model. Quit being such sheep ... a company doesnt need to treat its fans, players, or customers like brainless cash cows in order to make a profit."
Anything else genius? "But hey" you did say "most of the time" right? If I were to laugh at some ignorant smartass sarcastic comment after that then ... well thatd just be silly....
At least you were right about the breaking forum rules thing. Some of us just dont expect a company which just gave us a ton of crap about "willingness to listen" and complaints being worth "twice a compliment," to have rules like "dont say anything bad about SE" ...
lol, ooo something mustve stung. Needed to dust off my first account anyway.
Comments
I woulod also play this game again if it went ftp
The pull of the dark side is indeed strong, but I do believe it's possible to keep a Cash Shop "honest".
Blizzard have managed to avoid the (no doubt huge) temptation to massively expand the WoW Cash Shop. I think Square might be capable of keeping their Cash Shop genuinely "optional" as well.
As long as the subs meet expectations and the company sees the Cash Shop income as an extra bonus, all should be well. It's when the CS income becomes the entire focus that things go wrong...
it depends where the slippery slope begins and ends
one of WOWs cash shop pets can be sold ingame on the AH for ingame gold
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3665632/Sneak_Peek_Guardian_Cub_Tradable_Pet-10_10_2011
Q: Could I put the Guardian Cub up on the auction house to try to make some gold if I wanted to?
While our goal is to offer players alternative ways to add a Pet Store pet to their collection, we’re ok with it if some players choose to use the Guardian Cub as a safe and secure way to try to acquire a little extra in-game gold without turning to third-party gold-selling services.
for me, that crosses the line for a sub game -- of cash to gold
but gamers cash shop wariness will vary
EQ2 fan sites
Umm the guy you quoted didn't even say anything about Yoshida's consideration about F2P in past.
What he said was that maybe FFXIV wasn't such a big success as SE expected. If you are going to accuse him for not reading ake sure you do the same..no?
i'm not trying to insult anyone but.. wow..
What Yoshida said, in case you really can't tell, was a purely hypothetical and for the sake of discussion kind of statement, it was a developers conference after all, there's no signs they are thinking of implementing it in any length of the forseeable future (the game's doing pretty well after all), hell he even mentioned how it fits other kinds of online game better.
He talked about it just as he talked about a bunch of other stuff, since it IS a widely talked about topic regarding online games, and he IS there to give his opinion on stuff from his experience since that IS the point of the event.
What really amazes me is how everyone, especially those who don't usually care about this section of the forums(or the game) come jumping on this while ignoring the huge patch coming at the same time.
Do you people love the F2P MMORPG drama this much ? I'm starting to think some people like it more than the games themselves lol
TLDR - Everyone's making a big deal out of nothing, and i wonder how this still amazes me xD
The end of subs is upon us.......
if FF14 goes free to play then there is zero hope of ESO / Wildstar to succeed with their subs....
No Hating ! No Doomsaying !
FF series has trillions of fans across the globe, if they cannot withstand the free to play market and sub drops then no other studio can.
Sad news to hear this kind of thing
I really doubt that is going to happen, or anytime soon if it does. The article is really vague so who's to say how it would happen.
I welcome you to my free company with open arms
What he said was based on the idea that Yoshida hadn't considered F2P in the past (meaning he would consider F2P now that ARR wasn't as big of a success than he hoped). A flawed thinking I then corrected.
Because all the information here is just rephrased from 2011 you can't possibly come to any conclusions about the success of ARR from it. We already have the quarterly results from SE stating ARR is a greater success than they anticipated. Maybe that isn't the case anymore, but the producer stating things from 2011 is hardly a proof of that.
All this community debacle tells us is that the community can't handle an extremely frank man in charge.
The game did way better than they expected at launch, and even now right at the end of the last major patch it still is holding
500k players who log in every day + more( he mentioned the number to be substantially higher than that if you take in account people who log in every now and then), which is clearly noticeable by just playing the game anyway(the fact that it still has loads of active people). xD
Indeed the dev team has been doing a very good job of keeping up with what they say
the true hybrid model can only work well by following 3 important factors:
1- Fully free players get some limitations they can unlock in cash shop, plus the standard cash shop items.
2- People who bought the game but are playing without subs dont need game limitations because they purchased the game, but they can buy cosmetic items and account services in the cash shop too.
3- Subscribers get the full game just like the #2, but they also get everything in the cash shop (in game stuff like cosmetics, fluff, mounts, pets, etc) for free as a subscription perk.
MMO companies who dont do this are doing it wrong and eventually see their game fail and become pay to win. They rather become greedy and kill their own game for short term quick money instead of finding a good balance to benefit both company (devs/pubs) and consumers (players)
Where exactly is 500k paying subs, viewed as a failure (that number is solely from accounts that log in everyday)? The initial sales exceeded their expectations. It would seem that the current number of players playing the game are quite content with the sub model.
The sub model is currently responsible for the rich content patches the game receives. SE is laying a very thick foundation for it's first year. Why would you even think they would change what is already successful? (Successful enough for Yoshi-P and company to work on 3.0 development) The initial release of ffxiv 1.0, was a total failure, and at that time it was discussed FtP model, 2.0 is much more successful than 1.0. , has kept SE in the black.
There maybe a cash shop for extra things like retainers and fluff items, but I don't see the sub model going away anytime soon.
If content delivery from SE remains consistent with it's current pace and depth, what I can see happening is there will be a defined level of expectation of how much content is in a sub model as opposed to FtP or BtP, raising the bar on how much content there is on a patch per patch basis on a sub model.
This will definitely keep expectations of smaller companies to deliver lots of content, if they expect to keep a sub model, high. I personally think that's what was needed in a sub model, depth of content. Bigger bang for the buck sort of speak.
We all read the same article. We all read the same quotes. It requires no interpretation.
He stated, unequivocally, that they would like to sell in-game items. That's not a "hypothetical". That's a clear statement of something they would like to do. It's a pretty safe bet that "something they would like to do", is something they actually will do at some point.
He clearly stated that to think they would never consider F2P for ARR would be a "mistake". Again, nothing unequivocal about that. Now, him saying that by itself is not the point people have raised here. What is the point raised is that it flies completely in the face of the many people who have insisted that he, Yoshi-P, had said they would take the game offline before going F2P. He never said it in the first place, and this statement from him absolutely buries it.
What's funny about it, is how - once again - the tireless defenders of this game completely change their arguments on a dime, and pretend everything that's been said in the past somehow never happened.
Almost overnight, the argument literally went from this:
Poster: "This game could well go F2P in some form, perhaps in the first 6 months to a year or so. They're following the standard themepark model and just about every sub-based themepark to come out in the last several years has gone that way. So, it wouldn't be a surprise if SE decided to go that way with XIV as well".
Die-Hard Fan: "Stop trolling! Yoshi-P said they would shut down ARR before going F2P! It won't happen! If you hate the game so much then just go away!"
To this:
Poster: "As we'd said, F2P is something that could well happen to ARR, and now Yoshi-P has said so himself. The people who said "they'd shut it down before going F2P" were wrong".
Die-Hard Fan A (spinning what was actually said): "You people are misunderstanding! It's all hypothetical! What he actually meant was... -insert out-of-context spin-job interpretation of Yoshi-P's actual words blended with obvious wishful thinking here-"
Die-Hard Fan B (Revising and/or ignoring recent history): Well of course they would consider that! Yoshi-P's a smart business man, and he knows what's good for the game. Anyone who actually thought F2P wouldn't be a consideration is obviously just an idiot, or a troll".
It's the same thing all the time. Yoshi-P could come out making completely contradictory statements every day, and die-hard fans would just keep changing their arguments to make sure he remained nice and snug up on the pedestal they've placed him on. So long as the mission is to insist that "Yoshi-P can do no wrong", everything else is liquid.
If only some of you people could step outside yourselves and take an objective look at the things you say, the way you hop from one foot to the other and back again, saying whatever you have to, contradicting yourselves without a second thought, just to defend your game.
And by the way.. I say this being an actual active player of ARR. I enjoy the game. I'm just objective and honest enough to see and acknowledge its issues. Believe it or not, you can like something, still see its flaws or "less than great parts", and still be critical of them. They're not mutually exclusive.
only if enough of the fan base wants ftp tho
I think people are reading a little bit too much into what he has said and blowing it a bit out of context. The game, in its second incarnation pretty much saved Square-Enix from a lot of bad business choices. The fact that Yoshi is not running for president of the entire country is beyond me. The point I am getting at is that the guy is a miracle worker, but he succeeded as he understand the MMO market for both East and West.
He is saying that he understands that the F2P model is a popular choice, but he believes that a lot of companies have been switching to F2P model not because it is best for the game, but as a counter measure to fight against the games not succeeding. This measure worked wonders for SWTOR for example. But, if SWTOR had a stable player base, Bioware would of never considered F2P, they did so, to survive.
As such, he is aware of the social stigma of going from a sub based game to a F2P game and he is saying that 'should' they take the game in that direction its because they believe it would give players a better experience. However going F2P goes against Final Fantasy's journey.
They wish to dedicate all the time into content creation, as such we are coming up to the 2nd update which are massive updates to the game. So, going F2P for them, might be successful but the resources for content would be split (and the example used is 70/30 split) between content creation and paid items creation.
He does not want to do this, although he states they have had a lot of demand for paid content which like the character change potion and other services. Considering the success WoW has with this system he would be a fool not to explore it.
As of right now, Final Fantasy 14 is stable, it has a large population and if a player was to cancel their sub for a month or two the chances are that they will return to do the new content. This is how I am playing the game personally, I have done all of 2.1 content, cancelled sub, re-subbing with 2.2 and I'll be rinsing and repeating.
A lot of players will behave like me, some might just keep their subs going regardless, but let's say every 3 months is a large update. I get 2 months of fun out of it, so I am still paying for eight months out of 12 for a sub with this game which income wise would be a considerable amount of money when compared to F2P I would only buy cosmetics now and then.
TOR did have a stable player base. It just wasn't a large enough base to make them as much money as they wanted the product to be making. They said, time after time, that they would break even at 500k subscribers, and prior to adding the free option, they never dropped below that number. Did they need the switch to *thrive* like they have since? Almost certainly. But there is no evidence that survival was ever a problem.
If FFXIV sees it's subscriber numbers drop far enough at some point, it won't matter whether they stabilize or if the game is technically making enough to survive, because Square will decide they want more money and adjust the model accordingly.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Yoshida has been quite vocal about this trend too. SW:TOR was burdened by the investors' demands and had to turn to F2P because that usually means better returns on investment, sooner. TOR had a sizeable playerbase, probably much higher than what ARR is sporting today. The playerbase did not meet the investors' expectations though so it didn't matter.
ARR's playerbase has met and exceeded SE's expectations while SE is the only party financing the game. There are no investors to please. For SE making the game into a long-term cash cow akin to XI makes more sense than a quick return on investment. SE is one of the very few companies that have the opportunity to finance an MMO themselves.
To draw a direct comparison, FFXI has lost most of its playerbase in the last few years (current number is somewhere between 100k and 200k I think) but the game is still a P2P title. They haven't switched to F2P because the people playing the game prefer it to stay P2P. To go F2P your game needs to be able to attract a sizeable new customer base. FFXI is too old for that to happen. If ARR lives old enough as a P2P title while its growth opportunities shrink, it will never go completely F2P.
No game is ever too old to make the change from P2P to F2P; it can happen to FFXI. Age doesn't grant a MMORPG immunity (or near immunity) from changing business models. The only exception would be if a game were tied due to licensing issues (like Warhammer Online) in which case the company loses complete interest and allows the game to be placed under maintenance mode (with very little to no updates for years) eventually leading to its closure.
Age doesn't directly dictate the decision, but it is entirely possible that if a population gets small enough that the company would decide it doesn't make sense to bother with the expense of converting rather than shutting down.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
When your game is so dated that it doesn't have any projected growth opportunities while your core playerbase prefers P2P the immunity is pretty much set in stone. Unless the company makes a bad business decision and switches anyway. Who are going to be the "whales" of this new F2P system that pay the bills? New players that may not be attracted to a game with dated design even if it were free? Old players that may be simply alienated by the payment model switch?
The core playerbase preferring the P2P business model has very little to do on whether a game goes F2P or not (once the company has decided to make the switch internally). Some companies do quarterly or up to annual forecasting to see how population growth/decline will look like in the near future. If that population ends up being small enough (or they conclude that the population will continue to decline) where it isn't profitable (or not profitable enough) a company has two choices at that point. They can shut down or go F2P.
Usually a company won't wait till the very last minute (some won't give a damn and post that they are placing the game under maintenance mode or like some 3rd rate South Korean companies do: shut down with no warning). I actually had to make a post about a game that launched on November 2013, but abruptly closed last week. This can happen with indie titles or extremely niche titles that can't even fill up more than 1 server. I honestly don't think that Square Enix is going to follow suit and close down such a huge IP (easily one of the top 10 IPs out there from the 650 games listed here) without looking into other options.
Nothing is set in stone in the MMORPG world and you should know this being such a long time member here as well as in BG. EverQuest I went F2P 13 years after its release. So if a game that launched in 1999 can go F2P so can others.
http://techland.time.com/2012/01/31/13-years-later-everquest-finally-going-free-to-play-in-march/
There are only 6 games (released prior to 2005) that currently use the P2P business model exclusively. Dark Age of Camelot might follow the same footsteps as Warhammer Online did (due to the example I gave above about Mythic Entertainment). A Tale in the Desert has not received any major updates in about 3 years and it was announced a couple of days ago that the game was handed over completely to another management and development company. We don't know if they will make the switch other than it is acknowledged by the company that it is currently under maintenance mode. Vendetta Online and World of Warcraft have talked about the F2P model in the past. That just leaves EVE Online from that group. I can't find any article or interview that talked about the F2P model with CCP... but it doesn't surprise me either.
Almost every single AAA title has at least tried to transition to the F2P model (there are some exceptions to some key games from 2005-2008) but that’s another story. Every other game has tried it and FFXI will probably be no exception... unless of course it wants to follow down the road of the typical 3rd rate South Korean browser game and sign off with a Moogle saying "Tanaka is so kawaii and goodbye!" over at Playonline.com.
Yup, in the span of 1 week Yoshida has gone from an iconic dev passionate about his game and its fans to just another corporate tool looking to milk its fans for a quick buck. First he annouces they plan to start selling more bank slots (a very f2p item) ... now he's considering f2p.
Oh and god forbid you point it out in their forums ... apparently saying so goes against the ToS where you cant
"-post seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FFXIV, or others.
-criticize either SE staff of specific individuals."
In other words, dont say anything bad about SE or theyll ban you for a week, lol.
Needless to say I immediately quit and will probably wait a few months. This little microtransaction stunt only ended up losing them more ... at least from my end. In this and other SE products.
Trump 2016
lol, ooo something mustve stung. Needed to dust off my first account anyway.