"If something is happening in or related to the game that cannot conceivably with good conscience be played over speakers or depicted graphically at a Fanfest, it goes without saying that it exceeds what is permissable in EVE." -Salvos
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
no excuse for the bullying and public humiliation. Again.. I understand how EVE works.. this is too far. CCP does not want the bad press that could come with this.. Cyber Bullying is actually a big thing that collects press fast.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
One of the reasons for this bad behaviour is that Eve Online is a boring game. Players get bored and some of them turn to bullying in order to get their entertainment.
It's a good job that in a few months time Eve Online will get a lot more competition in the form of Elite: Dangerous.
I predict that Elite: Dangerous will superceed Eve Online because the most rewarding tasks in Elite: Dangerous will be the most enjoyable ones. In Eve Online, the most rewarding tasks are the most boring ones, such as using spreadsheets.
If you don't like Eve Online for whatever reason, I would urge you to cancel your subscription and play a different game.
I shocked, incensed, appalled, mortified and shamed by the behavior of this scammer and his followers as representatives of the human race. We should all be ashamed.
But I'm not. The scammer no more represents the EVE community than I do, we're all just members of a fairly open virtual world and just like in real life, I've observed great good as well as great evil.
Make no mistake, EVE is not "just a game", it really is a virtual world where CCP does it's best to keep their hands off of what the player base does. There are benefits and costs from this policy, and they are not always easy to bear.
As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end? Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam? Or do they go after all isk doubling scams? What are the limits and boundries? How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?
What sort of scams qualify? I accidently bought a mispriced Badger II that should have cost 675K ISk and I ended up paying 675M Isk? Should I be compensated? Should the scammer be punished? When does the punishment end?
You take the good with the bad. What happened to this person is not right, but then much of what happens in life isn't right, you learn to deal with it, protect you and your loved ones from it, and at the end of day, life goes on. (even in RL< as well as EVE)
Sure, go ahead and appeal to CCP to take action, that's everyone's right, but don't be surprised if they decide to stay hands off, and while that might be a reflection on their character, it has nothing to really do with the overall EVE "community" as a whole either.
Kyleran, I am shocked and appalled that you should even try to make an excuse for this bullying behaviour.
CCP should ban the perpetrators immeadiately - no further explanation is required at all, and CCP should make every effort to contact the victim(s) and just make sure they are ok - and saying "sorry" wouldn't be a bad thing.
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between torment and torture. This guy was tormented, not tortured.
That's the word I was looking for earlier.
In general and on the topic. Not related to your post Geezer. I think what Erotica 1 is doing now is kind of funny. I don't know if he is mocking everyone, thinking that he is fooling people, or moving assets around in case of a ban. The idea of him sending himself through his own bonus room is just funny. I guess he's trying to secure his assets just in case? If I had to guess but he pulls it off so well that there's a little doubt there and it just made me chuckle when I saw that thread.
Again. I feel bad for this kid. (being a black man) his racist remarks were uncalled for.. but again. I feel his pain those dudes were dicks to him for a super long amount of time.. obviously he is a little slow, and they took advantage of him. idk man.. both sides seem stupid to me after hearing this whole thing. again, erotica1 could have ended it before it got so far. smh.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
Uh, no. Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment. For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.
There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.
Too literal. I wasn't suggesting it perfectly replicated it in every detail. I meant that it demonstrated that, given the authority, stronger position (plus, in this case, incentive) and opportunity people will act like dicks and sadists even if it's not necessarily an otherwise apparent feature of their personality. They have a cart blanche to let the darker sides of their natures run amok. Now, of course, there are no 'real' consequences but the problem arises when real world money is involved and sheltered and shaky kids who take it very seriously. Now you could argue that about any game but Eve has the potential to take this concept to a really dark place.
Eve as an environment is neutral. It doesn't put some people in power and others in a position of not having any power. It doesn't "Set The Stage". If this were the case, then there wouldn't be any game play outside of the behavior we've seen here. There are tens of thousands of people logged into Eve at any given time, and out of those tens of thousands, a very small percentage are d!cks. There isn't any reason to think that the percentage of people who are d!cks in Eve is a larger percentage than any other game, on internet forums or even in the real world.
The behavior seen here can be seen on Microsoft's XBox Live where people can talk to each other and one guy tracked down a kid, drove to his house and beat the cr@p out of him. This behavior can be seen in internet forums, on Twitter, on Facebook* and on Reddit too. Each of these environments is neutral, some of them actively try to discourage this type of behavior, but people persist in behaving this way.
I certainly think CCP should start to think about some action they could take on their part to limit this kind of behavior, because it is unacceptable, but I don't see any evidence that Eve causes the behavior more so than any other type of online environment.
I could be wrong, but aren't there new player groups or councils of some sort that not only welcome new players to the game, but put effort into training and protecting new players? Getting players involved in that kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that encourages more pro-social behavior on the part of people. It could be that Eve Online is actually better than average in regards to pro-social v. anti-social behavior because of stuff like this. We can't know this though, because there aren't any studies about this in particular. If I were actually a social psychologist, I would probably be studying this, because then I could play a lot of video games. :-)
* Especially on Facebook. Holy cats.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
and at end blame game for players stupidity & naive
you should to know EVE is different MMORPG
its "spread sheet the game" meets "point and click targeting and moving" . .. whats not to love ... other than everything
that "spread sheet the game" meets "point and click targeting and moving" is an live universe ,combat is boring but anyway EVE is best mmo on market... and have something deep in yourself.After EVE other mmo are empty & sterile scripted worlds.
It is game what I can't never leave ,I 'll back anytime after break.
I'm not entirely sure this is limited to EVE. I don't see anything in here that couldn't happen in any other game, mostly because the worst of the stuff happens OUTSIDE the game.
That aside, I thought EVE's pride and joy comes from its sandbox nature, and IRL despicable acts like theft and treachery are wildly applauded in game? If you create a system without bounds and limits how could you possibly be surprised and abhorred by this behavior?
Have you never been to high school??
Theft is one thing. *Playing* the bad guy and scamming people for personal gain is fine in Eve.
But after listening to that conversation, it's quite clear he's taking this WAY out of character. This is not about *playing* an evil character that tricks and steals. He's taking this guy to an out of game chat to avoid EULA/TOS, and then humiliating him/etc for his own entertainment. Taking in game assets, again, is one thing. Humiliating someone and then publishing it for the world?
Mind you, I'm pretty sure that publishing a recording of someone without their permission is grounds for legal action in the USA. That should mean it's grounds for banning in Eve.
Thieves are everywhere and I can't feel bad for someone to be that foolish to fall for a scam like that. The humiliation part however is wrong, even though the victim could have ended it at anytime.
I shocked, incensed, appalled, mortified and shamed by the behavior of this scammer and his followers as representatives of the human race. We should all be ashamed.
But I'm not. The scammer no more represents the EVE community than I do, we're all just members of a fairly open virtual world and just like in real life, I've observed great good as well as great evil.
Make no mistake, EVE is not "just a game", it really is a virtual world where CCP does it's best to keep their hands off of what the player base does. There are benefits and costs from this policy, and they are not always easy to bear.
As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end? Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam? Or do they go after all isk doubling scams? What are the limits and boundries? How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?
What sort of scams qualify? I accidently bought a mispriced Badger II that should have cost 675K ISk and I ended up paying 675M Isk? Should I be compensated? Should the scammer be punished? When does the punishment end?
You take the good with the bad. What happened to this person is not right, but then much of what happens in life isn't right, you learn to deal with it, protect you and your loved ones from it, and at the end of day, life goes on. (even in RL< as well as EVE)
Sure, go ahead and appeal to CCP to take action, that's everyone's right, but don't be surprised if they decide to stay hands off, and while that might be a reflection on their character, it has nothing to really do with the overall EVE "community" as a whole either.
Kyleran, I usually agree with your posts but here I think you are way off track.
Let's compare this with a game of poker. Since bluffing, by consesus, is a part of poker I won't hold somone who pulls a bluff on me morally responsible for decieving me. It's part of the game, lesson learned, GG and move on. (This is like the badger scam you fell for).
However, if the bluffer through psychological manipulation convinced me to alter the rules just slightly while offering a hefty price if I play along and then used that against me in a series of humiliating events on the verge of torture, that would, if not breaking any laws, be in a totally different league from a moral perspective.
The view you are representing is called moral absolutism and it can be dangerous. If you can't see the difference in scale between these two cases you should do some studies of moral philosophy and how moral absolutism has lead people astray in the past.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
What I see here, without the trifle and the cheap drama:
- The article is a sensationalist piece of BS.
- Sohkar, the alleged victim, had used Erotica 1's services in the past, and the latter did effectively double the former's ISK investments.
- Sohkar was invited to the Bonus Round as a reward of the 100th client cycle of Erotica 1. Sohkar saw this as a unique opportunity and accepted. Sohkar's initial motivation is greed.
- Erotica 1 and his thugs told Sohkar to firstly pass them his assets, to which the latter consented.
- Erotica 1 and his thugs told Sohkar to read stuff and sing songs. Sohkar read stuff and sang songs.
- Sohkar snapped and went into a festival of obscenities, racial slurs, slams on the table and real-life threats. He even ignored his own wife when she broke in. The thing that most disturbs me is that Sohkar is a psychopathic racist and that he loses control of himself over losing virtual money in a videogame.
Sincerely, the immature and prude attitude and the hyperbole shown by some here is quite eloquent of why we don't get cool stuff in this genre. Looks like some people instead of dealing with the fact that actions bring consequences, prefer to limit the area of action to let others take decisions for them. They are no better than the rednecks from the Bible Belt burning Beatles' records on a bonfire.
Yeah, you make mistakes in real life, playing poker, or playing EVE. You run into bastards and scammers in real, playing poker or playing EVE. Some are smarter than other, some learn to be smarter. Deal with it, learn and grow up.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions (and incentives) necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
This. EvE is not a true "virtual world," no MMO is, because worlds include civilization. They include governments which make rules, and prisons into which they can place people who violate those rules. If a game doesn't give you the necessary tools to simulate civilization, only the tools to simulate gang warfare, then it can't claim to be a virtual world. EvE reminds me of a terrible movie, "The Purge" - in it the US has one night every year where all laws are suspended, and you can't be prosecuted for anything you do. EvE is permanently set in the night of the Purge.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Its one thing to fall for a scam. I fell to the very 1st one, the Battleship BP pyramid scam. And even then I thought the risk, about 20% of my net assets, was worth the chance. Ha, was I wrong.
But never would I have given all or almost all of everything I had in game. And I freely admit I was stupid to even give 20%.
Now what they should have done is set-up this up as a double grift.
And wtf is he reading, its hilarious. "When a miner gets ganked, they should always show respect to the suicide ganker and congratulate them on a good fight in local."
Like others said, he figured it out 45 mins in. He should have just said "ha ha funny guys, fuck you" and took it as a lesson learned. He was almost masochistic because he continued to let them abuse him.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions (and incentives) necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
This. EvE is not a true "virtual world," no MMO is, because worlds include civilization. They include governments which make rules, and prisons into which they can place people who violate those rules. If a game doesn't give you the necessary tools to simulate civilization, only the tools to simulate gang warfare, then it can't claim to be a virtual world. EvE reminds me of a terrible movie, "The Purge" - in it the US has one night every year where all laws are suspended, and you can't be prosecuted for anything you do. EvE is permanently set in the night of the Purge.
Except it's not. It's really, really not like that experiment. The experiment did not provide a blank slate, it provided a very clear script for the actors that spiraled out of control very quickly. Every person involved in the experiment fell victim to the environment and roles they were asked to play.
A little known fact about the experiment that I've learned recently is that the participants were not all selected randomly. Many were selected by responding to an ad that specifically mentioned the environment being a prison. Half the people who responded were looking to be involved in a prison experiment, not an experiment. The experiment may have turned out differently had the participants been selected randomly. Or not. We won't know because there are things like Institutional Review Boards that keep us from doing experiments like this.
Here's the ad:
Eve has been running for years, with tens of thousands of people online every day. That some small percentage of them are complete and total d!cks should not surprise anyone. Pick any group of fifty thousand people, put them all online at the same time and some small percentage of them are going to be d!cks relative to the rest of the group. Put fifty thousand vow of silence monks in retreat and some small percentage of those monks are going to try and make the other monks talk. Some people just aren't able to leave things alone.
If there's a finger to point here, it's squarely at the people involved, who did this outside of the game. Because if they did it inside the game using game chat resources, they would have been sanctioned, and they know it. Not for the theft, for the harassment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
EDIT: Personally I think the persons committing this act should have their knee caps broken. Or maybe their wrists, so they cant use a computer. It is just plain sickening.
But..but we know for a fact that P2P MMOS have best communities with little angels running everywhere..or thats what i have been told time and again.
Except it's not. It's really, really not like that experiment. The experiment did not provide a blank slate, it provided a very clear script for the actors that spiraled out of control very quickly. Every person involved in the experiment fell victim to the environment and roles they were asked to play.
A little known fact about the experiment that I've learned recently is that the participants were not all selected randomly. Many were selected by responding to an ad that specifically mentioned the environment being a prison. Half the people who responded were looking to be involved in a prison experiment, not an experiment. The experiment may have turned out differently had the participants been selected randomly. Or not. We won't know because there are things like Institutional Review Boards that keep us from doing experiments like this.
Eve has been running for years, with tens of thousands of people online every day. That some small percentage of them are complete and total d!cks should not surprise anyone. Pick any group of fifty thousand people, put them all online at the same time and some small percentage of them are going to be d!cks relative to the rest of the group. Put fifty thousand vow of silence monks in retreat and some small percentage of those monks are going to try and make the other monks talk. Some people just aren't able to leave things alone.
If there's a finger to point here, it's squarely at the people involved, who did this outside of the game. Because if they did it inside the game using game chat resources, they would have been sanctioned, and they know it. Not for the theft, for the harassment.
Obviously it's not exactly like that experiment, but it encourages the internet equivalent of the type of behavior that experiment led to. The issue, to me (I really don't care about the particular people involved in the example from this thread) is that MMOs like EvE have a tendency to give people who want to embrace sociopathic or psychopathic behavior all of the tools they need to do so, while rarely providing any of the necessary tools that would allow the rest of the community to effectively punish or deter such behavior.
Frankly, MMOs that purport to offer "virtual worlds" need to include virtual prisons, or the means for players to create virtual prisons, and they need to have virtual bounties that pay for "live" capture, so that players have incentives both to behave well and to hunt down and punish those who behave poorly. Until players have the necessary tools to simulate actual civilization, all we are getting is anarchy simulators, not virtual worlds.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Its one thing to fall for a scam. I fell to the very 1st one, the Battleship BP pyramid scam. And even then I thought the risk, about 20% of my net assets, was worth the chance. Ha, was I wrong.
But never would I have given all or almost all of everything I had in game. And I freely admit I was stupid to even give 20%.
Now what they should have done is set-up this up as a double grift.
And wtf is he reading, its hilarious. "When a miner gets ganked, they should always show respect to the suicide ganker and congratulate them on a good fight in local."
Like others said, he figured it out 45 mins in. He should have just said "ha ha funny guys, fuck you" and took it as a lesson learned. He was almost masochistic because he continued to let them abuse him.
Bingo! He should have. However. He was emotionally attached and didn't. Or as someone else said a little better his emotions compromised his judgement and Erotica 1 takes full advantage of this. It's the whole intent of the bonus round. It's very subtle and twisted.
"Well it's just pixels" Everyone places a different value on things in our lives. If I got someone in the position that Sohkar is in where his emotions compromise his judgement and I break him. They then do something stupid. Does that not make me partly at fault? It gets a bit dark and hard to listen to but is slow up until it happens. When he finally snaps they still have him hooked and could have dragged this on for hours if they wanted!
Don't think all of the Eve community should be punished for this but my opinion is this went way to far. Don't know what CCP should do if anything. If one got punished both definitely should.
Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community.
But maybe you're right. I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game.
This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth.
It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam.
Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter.
I wish it was only that guy....but in reality the majority of EVE players would do the exact same thing upon such "victim". If you are outside someone's corporation you are automatically treated as an enemy until proven otherwise. Are all the people on the street in RL your enemies?
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I believe in this world people like the 'victim' who suffer from some kind of disabilities should be protected by good people. These kind of things happen because we humans turn the other way around and not give a shit.
And i am sorry to say but you don't seem like a good person, the guy has speech impedment...suffers from severe PTSD and is mentally unstable because of his two tours to IRAQ and you are giving me this nonsense that 'he deserved it'?
I guess all people who have some kind of physical and mental disorders deserved to be scammed and humiliated then right?
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I believe in this world people like the 'victim' who suffer from some kind of disabilities should be protected by good people. These kind of things happen because we humans turn the other way around and not give a shit.
And i am sorry to say but you don't seem like a good person, the guy has speech impedment...suffers from severe PTSD and is mentally unstable because of his two tours to IRAQ and you are giving me this nonsense that 'he deserved it'?
I guess all people who have some kind of physical and mental disorders deserved to be scammed and humiliated then right?
What BS Teala..what a load of BS!
Even though I completely agree with you, there is no way for the "good guys" to do anything about it. What can you go to E1's spacedock and attack him without getting a 100 of his goon friends? Or you would go to the in-game police and ask for help, cuz unless you are podded in high sec, the in-game police doesn't give a shit.
IMO EVE is a game that puts a show of the worst of humanity. No laws, no rules, "user-driven sandbox" ... bullshit. If you set a bounty high enough he'll just let his buddies destroy some rookie ship to collect the bounty. The game is full of shit
EDIT: Personally I think the persons committing this act should have their knee caps broken. Or maybe their wrists, so they cant use a computer. It is just plain sickening.
Reason i stopped playing EvE is because it attracts a very special type of bottom feeders and scum.
The worst part of it is that CCP is not doing anything with the excuse that it's within the games rules. These people know very well that they can get away with anything and CCP does nothing about it. It's sad and CCP enables these people.
Sad, because the game is pretty fun.
It's the same reason I quit playing ages ago. It takes a special kind of person to be a member of the EvE community, and I don't mean that as a compliment. To be honest, this kind of stuff out of EvE doesn't even surprise me anymore. You think WoW has a bad community? Heh.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community.
But maybe you're right. I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game.
This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth.
It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam.
Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter.
I wish it was only that guy....but in reality the majority of EVE players would do the exact same thing upon such "victim". If you are outside someone's corporation you are automatically treated as an enemy until proven otherwise. Are all the people on the street in RL your enemies?
Present: Current offerings are low quality or soloable
Past:AoC, DCUO, FFXI,FFXIV 1.0 and ARR,WoW,Fallen Earth, Tabula Rasa, TSW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, WAR, Darkfall, STO, CoH/CoV, GW2, Diaspora, EQ2, DDO, and a bunch of forgettable ftp games
The most replies I've seen to the OP is that all community based games have something similar. The despicable types that prey on people that some can point to and say they deserve that because they are stupid, and it helps them bolster their own egos because they feel they are superior and would never be that stupid.
So the replies to the OP perform two functions.
Excuse the behavior and exonerate the entertainment the player identifies with. IOW: "I like it so it can't be bad".
Validates their ego by identifying people that they can classify as being inferior. Which allows them to confirm to themselves that they are in turn not inferior.
One of the many problems with the excusing of this behavior I would like to point out is that if other communities have this level of anti-social behavior why then do we not see this level of 'game show of humiliation' in WoW or any other MMO? Where are the podcasts of people torturing others?
No, this is a symptom of the attitude of the game managers and the expectations that have grown up around EVE, expectations that laud anti-social behavior. It is the acceptance of, 'That's just how EVE works, It's not bad'. That acceptance breeds further pressing of the boundaries of expected social behavior. This podcast is an evolution of allowing anti-social behavior to not just occur, but be celebrated.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community.
But maybe you're right. I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game.
This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth.
It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam.
Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter.
I wish it was only that guy....but in reality the majority of EVE players would do the exact same thing upon such "victim". If you are outside someone's corporation you are automatically treated as an enemy until proven otherwise. Are all the people on the street in RL your enemies?
Yes until proven otherwise
I take it you haven't been to Jita recently. And do you mean to tell me that all strangers in the nearby coffee you go to are your enemies? Or that you wouldn't ask them for the time and/or directions if you needed some? You EVE players really are special kind of cookies aren't you
Comments
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
no excuse for the bullying and public humiliation. Again.. I understand how EVE works.. this is too far. CCP does not want the bad press that could come with this.. Cyber Bullying is actually a big thing that collects press fast.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
One of the reasons for this bad behaviour is that Eve Online is a boring game. Players get bored and some of them turn to bullying in order to get their entertainment.
It's a good job that in a few months time Eve Online will get a lot more competition in the form of Elite: Dangerous.
I predict that Elite: Dangerous will superceed Eve Online because the most rewarding tasks in Elite: Dangerous will be the most enjoyable ones. In Eve Online, the most rewarding tasks are the most boring ones, such as using spreadsheets.
If you don't like Eve Online for whatever reason, I would urge you to cancel your subscription and play a different game.
Kyleran, I am shocked and appalled that you should even try to make an excuse for this bullying behaviour.
CCP should ban the perpetrators immeadiately - no further explanation is required at all, and CCP should make every effort to contact the victim(s) and just make sure they are ok - and saying "sorry" wouldn't be a bad thing.
That's the word I was looking for earlier.
In general and on the topic. Not related to your post Geezer. I think what Erotica 1 is doing now is kind of funny. I don't know if he is mocking everyone, thinking that he is fooling people, or moving assets around in case of a ban. The idea of him sending himself through his own bonus room is just funny. I guess he's trying to secure his assets just in case? If I had to guess but he pulls it off so well that there's a little doubt there and it just made me chuckle when I saw that thread.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Eve as an environment is neutral. It doesn't put some people in power and others in a position of not having any power. It doesn't "Set The Stage". If this were the case, then there wouldn't be any game play outside of the behavior we've seen here. There are tens of thousands of people logged into Eve at any given time, and out of those tens of thousands, a very small percentage are d!cks. There isn't any reason to think that the percentage of people who are d!cks in Eve is a larger percentage than any other game, on internet forums or even in the real world.
The behavior seen here can be seen on Microsoft's XBox Live where people can talk to each other and one guy tracked down a kid, drove to his house and beat the cr@p out of him. This behavior can be seen in internet forums, on Twitter, on Facebook* and on Reddit too. Each of these environments is neutral, some of them actively try to discourage this type of behavior, but people persist in behaving this way.
I certainly think CCP should start to think about some action they could take on their part to limit this kind of behavior, because it is unacceptable, but I don't see any evidence that Eve causes the behavior more so than any other type of online environment.
I could be wrong, but aren't there new player groups or councils of some sort that not only welcome new players to the game, but put effort into training and protecting new players? Getting players involved in that kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that encourages more pro-social behavior on the part of people. It could be that Eve Online is actually better than average in regards to pro-social v. anti-social behavior because of stuff like this. We can't know this though, because there aren't any studies about this in particular. If I were actually a social psychologist, I would probably be studying this, because then I could play a lot of video games. :-)
* Especially on Facebook. Holy cats.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
that "spread sheet the game" meets "point and click targeting and moving" is an live universe ,combat is boring but anyway EVE is best mmo on market... and have something deep in yourself.After EVE other mmo are empty & sterile scripted worlds.
It is game what I can't never leave ,I 'll back anytime after break.
Theft is one thing. *Playing* the bad guy and scamming people for personal gain is fine in Eve.
But after listening to that conversation, it's quite clear he's taking this WAY out of character. This is not about *playing* an evil character that tricks and steals. He's taking this guy to an out of game chat to avoid EULA/TOS, and then humiliating him/etc for his own entertainment. Taking in game assets, again, is one thing. Humiliating someone and then publishing it for the world?
Mind you, I'm pretty sure that publishing a recording of someone without their permission is grounds for legal action in the USA. That should mean it's grounds for banning in Eve.
Kyleran, I usually agree with your posts but here I think you are way off track.
Let's compare this with a game of poker. Since bluffing, by consesus, is a part of poker I won't hold somone who pulls a bluff on me morally responsible for decieving me. It's part of the game, lesson learned, GG and move on. (This is like the badger scam you fell for).
However, if the bluffer through psychological manipulation convinced me to alter the rules just slightly while offering a hefty price if I play along and then used that against me in a series of humiliating events on the verge of torture, that would, if not breaking any laws, be in a totally different league from a moral perspective.
The view you are representing is called moral absolutism and it can be dangerous. If you can't see the difference in scale between these two cases you should do some studies of moral philosophy and how moral absolutism has lead people astray in the past.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
What I see here, without the trifle and the cheap drama:
- The article is a sensationalist piece of BS.
- Sohkar, the alleged victim, had used Erotica 1's services in the past, and the latter did effectively double the former's ISK investments.
- Sohkar was invited to the Bonus Round as a reward of the 100th client cycle of Erotica 1. Sohkar saw this as a unique opportunity and accepted. Sohkar's initial motivation is greed.
- Erotica 1 and his thugs told Sohkar to firstly pass them his assets, to which the latter consented.
- Erotica 1 and his thugs told Sohkar to read stuff and sing songs. Sohkar read stuff and sang songs.
- Sohkar snapped and went into a festival of obscenities, racial slurs, slams on the table and real-life threats. He even ignored his own wife when she broke in. The thing that most disturbs me is that Sohkar is a psychopathic racist and that he loses control of himself over losing virtual money in a videogame.
Sincerely, the immature and prude attitude and the hyperbole shown by some here is quite eloquent of why we don't get cool stuff in this genre. Looks like some people instead of dealing with the fact that actions bring consequences, prefer to limit the area of action to let others take decisions for them. They are no better than the rednecks from the Bible Belt burning Beatles' records on a bonfire.
Yeah, you make mistakes in real life, playing poker, or playing EVE. You run into bastards and scammers in real, playing poker or playing EVE. Some are smarter than other, some learn to be smarter. Deal with it, learn and grow up.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
This. EvE is not a true "virtual world," no MMO is, because worlds include civilization. They include governments which make rules, and prisons into which they can place people who violate those rules. If a game doesn't give you the necessary tools to simulate civilization, only the tools to simulate gang warfare, then it can't claim to be a virtual world. EvE reminds me of a terrible movie, "The Purge" - in it the US has one night every year where all laws are suspended, and you can't be prosecuted for anything you do. EvE is permanently set in the night of the Purge.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
...
Still listening, but. Im not feeling sympathetic.
Its one thing to fall for a scam. I fell to the very 1st one, the Battleship BP pyramid scam. And even then I thought the risk, about 20% of my net assets, was worth the chance. Ha, was I wrong.
But never would I have given all or almost all of everything I had in game. And I freely admit I was stupid to even give 20%.
Now what they should have done is set-up this up as a double grift.
And wtf is he reading, its hilarious. "When a miner gets ganked, they should always show respect to the suicide ganker and congratulate them on a good fight in local."
Edit- You what this reminds me of... Super Safespot Buster 2000 v2.3
Like others said, he figured it out 45 mins in. He should have just said "ha ha funny guys, fuck you" and took it as a lesson learned. He was almost masochistic because he continued to let them abuse him.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Except it's not. It's really, really not like that experiment. The experiment did not provide a blank slate, it provided a very clear script for the actors that spiraled out of control very quickly. Every person involved in the experiment fell victim to the environment and roles they were asked to play.
A little known fact about the experiment that I've learned recently is that the participants were not all selected randomly. Many were selected by responding to an ad that specifically mentioned the environment being a prison. Half the people who responded were looking to be involved in a prison experiment, not an experiment. The experiment may have turned out differently had the participants been selected randomly. Or not. We won't know because there are things like Institutional Review Boards that keep us from doing experiments like this.
Here's the ad:
Eve has been running for years, with tens of thousands of people online every day. That some small percentage of them are complete and total d!cks should not surprise anyone. Pick any group of fifty thousand people, put them all online at the same time and some small percentage of them are going to be d!cks relative to the rest of the group. Put fifty thousand vow of silence monks in retreat and some small percentage of those monks are going to try and make the other monks talk. Some people just aren't able to leave things alone.
If there's a finger to point here, it's squarely at the people involved, who did this outside of the game. Because if they did it inside the game using game chat resources, they would have been sanctioned, and they know it. Not for the theft, for the harassment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
But..but we know for a fact that P2P MMOS have best communities with little angels running everywhere..or thats what i have been told time and again.
Obviously it's not exactly like that experiment, but it encourages the internet equivalent of the type of behavior that experiment led to. The issue, to me (I really don't care about the particular people involved in the example from this thread) is that MMOs like EvE have a tendency to give people who want to embrace sociopathic or psychopathic behavior all of the tools they need to do so, while rarely providing any of the necessary tools that would allow the rest of the community to effectively punish or deter such behavior.
Frankly, MMOs that purport to offer "virtual worlds" need to include virtual prisons, or the means for players to create virtual prisons, and they need to have virtual bounties that pay for "live" capture, so that players have incentives both to behave well and to hunt down and punish those who behave poorly. Until players have the necessary tools to simulate actual civilization, all we are getting is anarchy simulators, not virtual worlds.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Bingo! He should have. However. He was emotionally attached and didn't. Or as someone else said a little better his emotions compromised his judgement and Erotica 1 takes full advantage of this. It's the whole intent of the bonus round. It's very subtle and twisted.
"Well it's just pixels" Everyone places a different value on things in our lives. If I got someone in the position that Sohkar is in where his emotions compromise his judgement and I break him. They then do something stupid. Does that not make me partly at fault? It gets a bit dark and hard to listen to but is slow up until it happens. When he finally snaps they still have him hooked and could have dragged this on for hours if they wanted!
Don't think all of the Eve community should be punished for this but my opinion is this went way to far. Don't know what CCP should do if anything. If one got punished both definitely should.
I wish it was only that guy....but in reality the majority of EVE players would do the exact same thing upon such "victim". If you are outside someone's corporation you are automatically treated as an enemy until proven otherwise. Are all the people on the street in RL your enemies?
I believe in this world people like the 'victim' who suffer from some kind of disabilities should be protected by good people. These kind of things happen because we humans turn the other way around and not give a shit.
And i am sorry to say but you don't seem like a good person, the guy has speech impedment...suffers from severe PTSD and is mentally unstable because of his two tours to IRAQ and you are giving me this nonsense that 'he deserved it'?
I guess all people who have some kind of physical and mental disorders deserved to be scammed and humiliated then right?
What BS Teala..what a load of BS!
Even though I completely agree with you, there is no way for the "good guys" to do anything about it. What can you go to E1's spacedock and attack him without getting a 100 of his goon friends? Or you would go to the in-game police and ask for help, cuz unless you are podded in high sec, the in-game police doesn't give a shit.
IMO EVE is a game that puts a show of the worst of humanity. No laws, no rules, "user-driven sandbox" ... bullshit. If you set a bounty high enough he'll just let his buddies destroy some rookie ship to collect the bounty. The game is full of shit
It's the same reason I quit playing ages ago. It takes a special kind of person to be a member of the EvE community, and I don't mean that as a compliment. To be honest, this kind of stuff out of EvE doesn't even surprise me anymore. You think WoW has a bad community? Heh.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Yes until proven otherwise
Current PC Build
http://pcpartpicker.com/b/p8RBD3
Present: Current offerings are low quality or soloable
Past:AoC, DCUO, FFXI,FFXIV 1.0 and ARR,WoW,Fallen Earth, Tabula Rasa, TSW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, WAR, Darkfall, STO, CoH/CoV, GW2, Diaspora, EQ2, DDO, and a bunch of forgettable ftp games
The most replies I've seen to the OP is that all community based games have something similar. The despicable types that prey on people that some can point to and say they deserve that because they are stupid, and it helps them bolster their own egos because they feel they are superior and would never be that stupid.
So the replies to the OP perform two functions.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I take it you haven't been to Jita recently. And do you mean to tell me that all strangers in the nearby coffee you go to are your enemies? Or that you wouldn't ask them for the time and/or directions if you needed some? You EVE players really are special kind of cookies aren't you