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MMO extortion tactics
amber-r
Member Posts: 323
What do you think of these tactics used in the mmo field? most notably in pay to play titles. The example I have is the demand for payment of a monthly sub or in-game consequences will follow. On FFXIV they are bringing in plans that if you don't pay your subscription (and as such unable to log-on) meaning you are not active for more than 35 days they will completely destroy very valuable in-game assets. Heavy punishment for taking a break or stopping payment for whatever reason. To me this sounded like "pay us or we break your car" because that's basically the message they are giving out.
This was brought up to me by my sister, who still plays FFXIV. Guild housing on that game is something that requires vast sums of in-game currency, many, many months of work by multiple people to obtain. They are planning to bring in a system where, if you take a break and stop your subscription for more than 35 days they simply destroy that housing completely and offer nothing back from that destruction. This is guild housing, however in a game where many players created small groups or family guilds to buy these houses or where many in the guild have simply now quit or are on breaks leaving on a small number of actives remaining this basically blackmails the few remaining players to continue their subscription (even if they plan to not play for a while) or lose a very valuable in-game asset. Basically put, "pay your monthy sub fast or we destroy your house". To me this comes off as very questionable tactics, I know these games need to try to force players to retain their subscription but is this really a valid tactic to be used? especially with such a short time frame of destruction of 35 days?
What's next, don't take a break from our game or we will delete your character in 35 days? Every month you're inactive we take a level away? One company getting away with tactics like this will spread if they are deemed successful. I took a break for over 4 months from Guild Wars 2, I recently went back and everything was just as I left it, nobody destroyed anything because I stopped spending money in the cash shop. Same applies to WoW where I haven't played for over a year, everything is just as when I left.
I hasten to add that on all the servers none of the housing plots are full, plus it's very easy to add more land space if they want to and they won't offer you anything back upon that destruction to rebuild if it you come back after 35 days either, there is no valid reason for this kind of draconian tactic other than to extort money out of players and blackmail them from taking unpaid breaks from the game of more than 35 days.
What do you all think of mmo companies using tactics like this?
Comments
I admit I already was expecting to read another "P2P sucks, buying a sub fee is robbery!" kinda thread when I read the title but fortunately I read through it. The problem with landspace getting cluttered up already is as old as non-instanced housing is. I can't emphasize how much I personally despise the method FFXIV seems to use there. Reading about something like that would already be enough for me to not even get started with a game simply because such timesink efforts for me mean a big deal as a Roleplayer.
I'm all fine with the approach Starwars Galaxies took with buildings getting packed up to be placed again eventually when you reactivate just to prevent the map from being ghost towns with the nicest spots being taken. Losing something (beyond the building spot) totally because of inactivity for me is not tolerable and simply stupid because they should know that someone will never come back after they pull off such a stunt on them.
35 days without login is a bit extreme. 90 days should be the base minimum but in terms of the 'tactic' if you don't log in to LotRO to pay maintenance they take your house. Asking you to actually play the game you want to hold world asset in doesn't qualify as extortion.
Your car analogy. I want to park my car in this parking lot but I might not be able to pay you for a few months at a time, don't have it towed is a better analogy.
None instanced housing has to have some type of deadline or it gets removed. If not you'd have the same problem every other game did ( SWG when they first put it in )
I don't think that's to "force" you to sub or else. The game full of houses no one lives in is why they do it.
That being said, when the timer hits zero and they burn the place to the ground and you lose everything.....isn't a very good incentive to come back and play again. There's a reason mmos never delete characters...if they're smart.
Seems like a bad strategy to me. I know if I had a sub. But, decided to drop it temporarily for whatever reason. I wouldn't want to resubscribe if my stuff got zapped. It does seem punishing. But, at the very least it will be a discouraging factor for many in subscribing in the first place, I'd think.
And, housing/land ownership... it can't really be a problem unless they make it one. There are too many VU's, which are far more massive then any MMORPG, that never run into issues with land; To be able to buy into the idea that limiting ownership do to lack of ability to meet demand in a virtual space is a real thing. You can always create more land, and tack it onto existing areas with whatever justification you want. As long as you don't make too many new assets (not re-used assets, actually new assets) and server capacity constraints for people on at any one time remain the same. It's simply not a real issue...again unless they decide to make it one.
Funny addition to this story.
An interview with the lead developer of FFXIV when housing was added below.
1:14:22
Q: Will there be any maintenance fees or other costs for housing, besides the cost of the land and house?
A: In older MMOs, such as Ultima Online, there was a house maintenance fee you had to pay weekly, but in FFXIV: ARR we decided against this system. Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/113554-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-IX-Q-A-Summary-(10-30-2013
Seems they changed their mind.
I'm really getting sick of games that make promises and change them once they see player numbers dropping.
Guild housing has more players for that house. If ALL of them are gone for 35+ days, I would guess they are pretty much done with the game.
Also, most sub games have fairly good customer service. If players know beforehand that they will be gone from the game more than the allotted 35+ days, can they contact Customer Service and let them know so that their asset will not be deleted? Back when I played subscription games, if I knew beforehand that I would not be playing for a couple of weeks, I'd contact CS and let them know. They would freeze my account until I let them know I was ready to come back. It could be in the middle of my paid month, so I would come back and still have 2 weeks (or however long) paid until my next billing. I have no idea if this practice is still done or not, though. With today's easy access notifications, there is no excuse for not contacting CS even in an emergency that will last more than 35+ days.
Housing that is not instanced has always had to deal with this problem. I think it is a huge (but not impossible) step from non-instanced housing to deleting characters.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't play sub-only games. This does not affect me. And if a game I play wants to destroy my stuff .. i will move on to another game.
Send a ticket to everyone in the FC when the house is destroyed after 90 days (the game isn't that busy where the space is actually needed before that) that allows them to re-create the house and all items intact when they return. I think losing the plot is acceptable after a fair amount of time, but losing everything is just outright blackmail to keep your sub active.
It's not just me that thinks that though, Square enix themselves said the same thing. Read my second post.
Anything else is just a tactic to keep people paying a sub when they aren't playing. FFXIV isn't the only game with this type of system, it's the only one however that stated they would NOT do that and did it anyway once they saw player losses.
I hate the Subscription model because of these tactics. They nickel and dime you way more then F2P because you obviously have the choice to pay or not. Sub games stick in hurdles and other developmental roadblocks that keep you subscribed longer and hence forth PAYING longer. From limited bag space to Looting options that keep the player always looking for that one drop that never does.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Let's party like it is 1863!
Lead developers don't control the business model, suits do, and when the financial picture changes then so does the revenue model in many cases.
Perhaps you'd prefer they convert it to a cash shop model, and ask you to pay rent on the house for x number of months?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well under those circumstances any mmo company can do anything, delete your characters, put your character in the middle of the ocean for fun etc. The problem is, you expect a certain level of service and professionalism from these companies, this should be unacceptable because:
A) This company did a bait and switch (because they initially promised they would never do this and are now doing it)
If a large company does this then they all could and to me that is really worrying.
If they had said at the start when they added this feature, this house will be destroyed if you are inactive for 35 days that would of at least been honest and you can make an informed decision but this is not because they specially said they would not do that...then did it anyway 3 months later.
1:14:22
Q: Will there be any maintenance fees or other costs for housing, besides the cost of the land and house?
A: In older MMOs, such as Ultima Online, there was a house maintenance fee you had to pay weekly, but in FFXIV: ARR we decided against this system. Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
I'd prefer they sent a ticket to everyone in the FC when it's destroyed after 90 days so that when you return anyone can recreate the housing in an unused area. This is done as Square themselves said, to promote the idea of continuing your sub even if you don't play for a while for fear of losing big game achievments.
The problem with this is that this is basically extortion or blackmail and if that became common practice it would be a bad day for all of us that play these games. When a big company like Square Enix will do this (and lie about it) we should all be worried, every other mmo company is watching this and if it does work they will start doing the same.
Seems stupid to me. More than a few players takes breaks in the MMO playing (particularly at summer) and punishing them for it makes the chance of them returning a lot slimmer.
If the guildhouses, stores and so on are un-instanced and in the open world it is different because otherwise dead guilds would own the best guildhalls and the player owned stores would be closed permanently but as long as it is all instanced the halls and stores should just be closed until the owners paid the rent.
Actually I recall this from my days of playing FFXI that when I unsubbed and cancelled my account my character was deleted by them. This was the old system they had. Heard later on they allowed people to return and they returned the deleted toons. I decided to cancel my account as I did not want my cc details with them then ,you could unsub but keep the account but then your cc details could not be removed. Only way to do that was to cancel the Squaresoft account which deleted my character.. I would consider this as drastic but to be honest I cannot see that quote you have highlighted as confirming them as saying they would keep up your guild house. Where exactly does it say that ?
A: In older MMOs, such as Ultima Online, there was a house maintenance fee you had to pay weekly, but in FFXIV: ARR we decided against this system. Similarly, these older MMOs also had a system where your house would break down if you didn’t log in after a while in order to have you continue your subscription, but this is a thing of the past and we won't have any system like that.
They say they will not have a system where your house broke down but that does not mean they will not demolish the house themselves. It also does not mean they will keep your guildhouse for you if you do not sub it only means there is no decay but they could decide to free up space by destroying data of players who unsub. Also it seems they are saying they will not have a system that allows you to keep money in escrow allowing rental even when you are unsubbed.
Is housing open world in FFXIV? If so, it's necessary, otherwise as stated, you take up space in the world. Archeage will be the same. If you don't pay, you lose your house.
Now, on the other hand, not letting players save the info on all housing specs is pretty bulls****y in my opinion. Atleast AA lets you save. If the housing is instanced, then that's just.... wtf?
This post is complete bullshit. There was never a system like that. Free companies and the Assets are automatically transferred to one of the officers if the Leader is leaving the game or not logging in for a certain amount of time.
Get your facts straight. It has always been like that.
I don't think you properly read the post, this is another addition and not the one you're talking about.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/159620-If-no-one-access-a-FC-house-in-35-Days-you-lose-everything!-Coming-Patch-2.3
This isn't new, DAOC did this years ago, if the owner left the game, they would return your house's contents to you upon your return, but the actual house itself was lost, and any money you paid for it. (and some houses cost many millions of ISK to purchase, esp the mansions)
You also lost the money you paid for the lot itself, which also could cost up to a 100Million gold if you bought it when it first went into the auction system.
Your option was to sell the house to someone else before you left and recover your money, is that a possibility in this game?
My old guild had people pay subs long after most everyone left in order to maintain the guild village in case of an eventual return. Instead the server (Mordred) was permanently shut down so their efforts were for naught
So this practice isn't new, nor particularly fair, but at the end of the day they will try to keep you paying. EVE uses it's real time training for this same purpose, no sub, no training.
They are a business, you want to keep your house, make sure someone is willing to pay the sub for it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I did read your later post afterward. All I can say is:
By now, you should know words are cheap. Developers often times say almost anything to appease their audience. Smedley at SOE is a master of this. What will the reaction be when FFXIV:ARR introduces a cash shop, something they "said" would never happen? Suits (the decision makers) rarely ignore money making possibilities.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
This is still something entirely different than you posted. The Free Company House has to be not visited by ANY of the members for 35 days. That is ALL YOUR MEMBERS must decide not to go there for 35 days.
If none of your Free Company members visits the house for 35 days you don't need a house.
It has nothing to do with extortion. People can leave and stop playing as long as someone is still using that house and is in that Free company it will still be available.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
There is quite a bit of important information missing from the OPs post.
1. These are guild houses we're talking about.
2. The house only needs to be visited by someone in the guild once every 35 days. That doesn't mean that you have to continue to pay your sub fee, that means that someone in the guild needs to use the house once every 35 days... Big deal.
3. As a poster above previously stated, if no-body in your entire guild uses the house once every 35 days, you don't need a house.
Personally, I feel this is an extremely fair system. It makes losing a house difficult, but still possible if everyone in a guild completely neglects it or if the guild falls apart.
OP, please give people all the information before you start complaining. While there will be houses lost because of this system, but it won't be because 1 person decided to un-sub from the game like your post seems to indicate. It will be an entire guild that lets the house go.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
I think in game consequences for not paying your subscription would lead me to not playing the game. That's one of the reasons I feel like I can come back and play WoW. When I return, things will be pretty much where I left them and I can just keep going.
Now, that changes if there are things that are based around "renting" rather than "owning". If housing is rental property, then if you don't pay your sub, and you don't pay your rent, you don't get to keep your house. I think punitive mechanics beyond something like that would not be something I'd be willing to deal with.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.