I have heard this comparison one too many times now.
The things that made Daoc pvp great were realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign.
Realm Pride: This was HUGE in Daoc. After a while people created toons on other servers to be able to experience other realms, but not before attaching themselves to one realm and hating the other two. This game made you proud to be part of your realm and hate the others with a passion. If your lands were being invaded by another realm you went out to kick their ass, period. You did not need any rewards to motivate you, it was for the shear pleasure of defeating and humiliating the enemy. Even the PvE played to this, the backstory making sure you knew what faction your allegiance belonged to and why you should hate the others. Does anyone here really identify with their faction in ESO? I can't even tell you what races are in each off the top of my head because who cares? Ask a Daoc fan what faction trolls were, or Britons, or Keens.
Server Identity: This megaserver, along with this campaign crap, has destroyed any sense of server identity. In Daoc when the Albs were attacking one of the first things was to ask who is leading them, which guild(s), etc. Or how about the watch out in this area if you are solo (insert name of badass facestabbing infiltrator here) is ganking. You always knew who the other side was, you knew their "doctrine" and tactics, and they knew yours. It made for interesting battles because you could always use the fact the enemy knew you to plot diversions and other tricks. You also knew you own server, you knew your guilds, the most skilled allies you had that you would want to go to war with, etc. You did not only know those in your guild but players on your server, period. It was truly a social event every time you logged in.
Continuous campaign: The war in Daoc never ended. You could not jump ship unless it was to reroll to another server. You either made do with what you had, made alliance, or your life sucked. This created an awesome competitive environment. This whole GW2 thing where your war only lasts x amount of time is just pathetic. It has turned it into a cybersport rather than a war.
This is not Daoc and never will be, just stop.
/rant off
Realm Pride: Just becaus eyou can't identify with your faction doesn't mean noone can, just because you can't get involved and cheer for a football team doesn't means noone can.
Server Identity: ok, knowing who your enemy is and how they play is standard for any game if you play long enough, even on GW2 which makes hard for you to identify your enemy we would think "oh it's that guild, we need to play carefully", "oh that guy is leading, he likes to rush and avoid fighting", DAOC isn't special on this, it's just smaller population, so you could more easily identify the hardcore players.Anyone can make a name for themselves in any game, you just need to play long enough to differentiate yourself from the masses.
Continuous campaign: wow, so much hardcore. You want people to go through great lengths of pain just to have a different experience, just so they could for once stop being the underdog and win a few times. You want to force people to be die hard lovers of their own server or reroll and start basically from scratch. Well, guess why theres so much more freedom and forgiving rules these days, it's because there isn't a lot of people that want to be hardcore on everything they do.
Force me to stay on a dying server because I can't change servers and the only option is to reroll? Terrible terrible design.
Who cares about the difference between cybersport and "war"? I want to have fun and be competitive, I don't want a "life sucked" just because I chose a dying server, your nostalgia is getting in the way of your reasoning.
As far as I know people compared the mechanics of the combat and tactics to DAOC, not some hardcore server side highly limiting to the player mechanics.
This isn't a place to rant, if you rant other people will rant against you, which ends in a flame war.
Realm pride happens because of factions specialities. I've never played DAoC, but I played GW2 and PS2, and I know for sure that the feel of "Realm pride" happens because factions have special weapons, landscapes, classes, races. (PS2 has some, GW2 has none). In ESO, races should have been restricted to factions, that would have created some faction advantages (This faction has more powerfull mages, while this one has stronger warriors, ...). I also think an assymetric landscapes could help (asymetric keeps, all keeps are the same for each factions)
The thing about megaserver is that people you meet in PvE aren't the people you'll meet in PvP, this kind of erases the whole "After this dungeon, I'll defend our faction, you guys come ?" and removes server pride a bit. I also think an open-PvP not restricted into a battleground would have been better and fit better to the game, but that's my opinion.
There was a lot of possibilities, a lot of potential in ESO's AvA. ESO, instead of trying to make a more sandboxy PvP, they just went full themepark and didn't try to bring something new to the table.
When you read the OP's post, it definitely comes across as a bash-thread, whether intended or not. Thus the defensive posts from people who feel differently, or from people like myself, who judge games on their own merits, and not on comparisons to other games.
However, from this post came some useful posts discussing the differences between DAOC and ESO and what ESO could do to improve. These posts are interesting and useful, since they are aimed at improving ESO, and not simply bashing it.
I also played DAOC, I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it wasn't perfect... hell, it was deeply flawed at first, much like ESO (remember when Thanes just stood on the other side of walls and doors and spammed their AoEs, killing everyone assaulting the doors at no risk to themselves?).
My point is, it's unfair to bash ESO at release based on what DAOC was years after release. It takes time to get there. So rather than create flame wars based on personal loyalty, let's talk aobut what ESO can do to bring it closer to the DAOC-ideal (or any other ideal, if you prefer).
LOL, maybe this one won't get deleted, as I tried not to attack anyone
Originally posted by Aroukos Guys OP started this thread as a reaction to those who are claiming ESO is a DAoC successor.
WHo is the OP to tell others how something feels to them? I'll repeat it again, you can't take away how someone feels about something or what that thing may remind them of, no matter how long your rant is.
I agree, the OP has no right to tell others how to feel.
(whispers) The OP didn't mention anything in regards to how the game made him feel in his rant... just the facts.
When you read the OP's post, it definitely comes across as a bash-thread, whether intended or not. Thus the defensive posts from people who feel differently, or from people like myself, who judge games on their own merits, and not on comparisons to other games.
However, from this post came some useful posts discussing the differences between DAOC and ESO and what ESO could do to improve. These posts are interesting and useful, since they are aimed at improving ESO, and not simply bashing it.
I also played DAOC, I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it wasn't perfect... hell, it was deeply flawed at first, much like ESO (remember when Thanes just stood on the other side of walls and doors and spammed their AoEs, killing everyone assaulting the doors at no risk to themselves?).
My point is, it's unfair to bash ESO at release based on what DAOC was years after release. It takes time to get there. So rather than create flame wars based on personal loyalty, let's talk aobut what ESO can do to bring it closer to the DAOC-ideal (or any other ideal, if you prefer).
LOL, maybe this one won't get deleted, as I tried not to attack anyone
T
Will you stop being reasonable? You are taking the fun right out of this thread.
Originally posted by Aroukos Guys OP started this thread as a reaction to those who are claiming ESO is a DAoC successor.
WHo is the OP to tell others how something feels to them? I'll repeat it again, you can't take away how someone feels about something or what that thing may remind them of, no matter how long your rant is.
I agree, the OP has no right to tell others how to feel.
(whispers) The OP didn't mention anything in regards how the game made him feel in his rant... just facts.
Wrong again(Maniacal Laugh)
DId you not get what I am saying there, .. So tell me what sparked this rant if not to tell others to not compare the two games at all? WHich would bring up what I said.
Are we going to have this same talk about CU in the future? As it to is also going to be different than DAOC, yet inspired by it.
"Facts"?!?!? "there's no realm pride" that's a fact? EVerything the OP said was his own interpretation of what made DAOC what it was, with that interpretation he feels he can tell everyone else what it was to them, and where they can draw their comparisons. Facts ROFL.
Anyway, most probably make the comparison based on this, as they will with CU...
A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators, shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both. In other words, it's a sequel "in spirit".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have heard this comparison one too many times now.
The things that made Daoc pvp great were realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign.
Realm Pride: This was HUGE in Daoc. After a while people created toons on other servers to be able to experience other realms, but not before attaching themselves to one realm and hating the other two. This game made you proud to be part of your realm and hate the others with a passion. If your lands were being invaded by another realm you went out to kick their ass, period. You did not need any rewards to motivate you, it was for the shear pleasure of defeating and humiliating the enemy. Even the PvE played to this, the backstory making sure you knew what faction your allegiance belonged to and why you should hate the others. Does anyone here really identify with their faction in ESO? I can't even tell you what races are in each off the top of my head because who cares? Ask a Daoc fan what faction trolls were, or Britons, or Keens.
Server Identity: This megaserver, along with this campaign crap, has destroyed any sense of server identity. In Daoc when the Albs were attacking one of the first things was to ask who is leading them, which guild(s), etc. Or how about the watch out in this area if you are solo (insert name of badass facestabbing infiltrator here) is ganking. You always knew who the other side was, you knew their "doctrine" and tactics, and they knew yours. It made for interesting battles because you could always use the fact the enemy knew you to plot diversions and other tricks. You also knew you own server, you knew your guilds, the most skilled allies you had that you would want to go to war with, etc. You did not only know those in your guild but players on your server, period. It was truly a social event every time you logged in.
Continuous campaign: The war in Daoc never ended. You could not jump ship unless it was to reroll to another server. You either made do with what you had, made alliance, or your life sucked. This created an awesome competitive environment. This whole GW2 thing where your war only lasts x amount of time is just pathetic. It has turned it into a cybersport rather than a war.
This is not Daoc and never will be, just stop.
/rant off
Realm Pride: Just becaus eyou can't identify with your faction doesn't mean noone can, just because you can't get involved and cheer for a football team doesn't means noone can.
Server Identity: ok, knowing who your enemy is and how they play is standard for any game if you play long enough, even on GW2 which makes hard for you to identify your enemy we would think "oh it's that guild, we need to play carefully", "oh that guy is leading, he likes to rush and avoid fighting", DAOC isn't special on this, it's just smaller population, so you could more easily identify the hardcore players.Anyone can make a name for themselves in any game, you just need to play long enough to differentiate yourself from the masses.
Continuous campaign: wow, so much hardcore. You want people to go through great lengths of pain just to have a different experience, just so they could for once stop being the underdog and win a few times. You want to force people to be die hard lovers of their own server or reroll and start basically from scratch. Well, guess why theres so much more freedom and forgiving rules these days, it's because there isn't a lot of people that want to be hardcore on everything they do.
Force me to stay on a dying server because I can't change servers and the only option is to reroll? Terrible terrible design.
Who cares about the difference between cybersport and "war"? I want to have fun and be competitive, I don't want a "life sucked" just because I chose a dying server, your nostalgia is getting in the way of your reasoning.
As far as I know people compared the mechanics of the combat and tactics to DAOC, not some hardcore server side highly limiting to the player mechanics.
This isn't a place to rant, if you rant other people will rant against you, which ends in a flame war.
Realm pride happens because of factions specialities. I've never played DAoC, but I played GW2 and PS2, and I know for sure that the feel of "Realm pride" happens because factions have special weapons, landscapes, classes, races. (PS2 has some, GW2 has none). In ESO, races should have been restricted to factions, that would have created some faction advantages (This faction has more powerfull mages, while this one has stronger warriors, ...). I also think an assymetric landscapes could help (asymetric keeps, all keeps are the same for each factions)
The thing about megaserver is that people you meet in PvE aren't the people you'll meet in PvP, this kind of erases the whole "After this dungeon, I'll defend our faction, you guys come ?" and removes server pride a bit. I also think an open-PvP not restricted into a battleground would have been better and fit better to the game, but that's my opinion.
There was a lot of possibilities, a lot of potential in ESO's AvA. ESO, instead of trying to make a more sandboxy PvP, they just went full themepark and didn't try to bring something new to the table.
One of the reasons I left PS2 was because the obivious differences between the factions, different landscapes might be problem tactically too. Noone wants to play the "nerfed" side, if you make factions speciallize in certain areas it creates a bad environment, "I can't play the way I want in a specific area because the other sides always have the advantage on that area", you will please way more people with balanced sides rather than your suggestion.
Realm pride is subjective to the player, the developers can help desenvolve it, but it ultimately falls to the player.
Originally posted by ohioastro Comparing game features that took years to develop against a brand new release is not useful. How does the OP know that players *won't* end up developing strong alliance allegiances in 3 month campaigns once they've been actively PvPing for years? Does he also give stock market tips?
DAoC didn't take that long to develop and - fundamentally - its PvP remained pretty much unchanged. (There was change e.g. nerfs (left hand axe!), map changes, realm ranks were added but the fundamentals remained). ESo on the other hand did take years and had the advantage of looking at everything that DAoC was / is.
ESO will NEVER be as good as DAoC. Each class in DAoC was very different and had its place in game and role in pvp... it was hard to balance but atleast everyone was different. Also Combat system was unique. I really doubt that pvp in ESO will ever get over zerg this zerg that mode. Its combat is just too action oriented without enough rpg and tactic elements. I am not even starting to talk about PvE ... which plays just like single player game.
Dark Age Of Camelot - Gareth - Alderienne (keen eldritch)
Myself and many other DAoC veterans disagree with you. Please stop stating subjective opinion as objective fact. If you don't like it and you don't feel it lives up to DAoC's standard that's fine. But please refrain from making blanket declarative statements as if no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the matter.
Originally posted by Aroukos Guys OP started this thread as a reaction to those who are claiming ESO is a DAoC successor.
WHo is the OP to tell others how something feels to them? I'll repeat it again, you can't take away how someone feels about something or what that thing may remind them of, no matter how long your rant is.
I agree, the OP has no right to tell others how to feel.
(whispers) The OP didn't mention anything in regards how the game made him feel in his rant... just facts.
Wrong again(Maniacal Laugh)
DId you not get what I am saying there, .. So tell me what sparked this rant if not to tell others to not compare the two games at all? WHich would bring up what I said.
1.) My guess would be the people out there saying ESO pvp is the same as DaoC's pvp... it's not. I have friends that think LoTR movies are "as good" as the books... they're not. Realm pride is a huge factor and the reason why ESO doesn't shine in this area has nothing to do with feelings, it has more to do with design. The Races aren't necessarily locked and at level 50 it doesn't matter what faction you chose you can explore any faction you want and do content there. This design is a pride killer and is the one of the reason why its not DoaC. All facts btw...
By all rights it's a good elder scrolls game and it doesn't really need to be DaoC 2. We can just let CU be the second coming of Daoc however, when we have people that never played daoc start making claims, the rants begin.
Are we going to have this same talk about CU in the future? As it to is also going to be different than DAOC, yet inspired by it.
2.) Maybe, it all depends if they get it right.
"Facts"?!?!? "there's no realm pride" that's a fact? EVerything the OP said was his own interpretation of what made DAOC what it was, with that interpretation he feels he can tell everyone else what it was to them, and where they can draw their comparisons. Facts ROFL.
3.) See 1.
Anyway, most probably make the comparison based on this, as they will with CU...
4.) You are correct. No pride ... then it's not DaoC.
A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators, shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both. In other words, it's a sequel "in spirit".
Again, the problem is with people saying that the pvp is the same or as good as ...
Myself and many other DAoC veterans disagree with you. Please stop stating subjective opinion as objective fact. If you don't like it an you don't feel it lives up to DAoC's standard that's fine. But please refrain from making blanket declarative statements as if no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the matter.
What is it specifically that you disagree with? And where are all these "many" other DAoC vets that disagree?
OP brought up some valid points.
The only opinion he brought up was that he didn't feel ESO compared to DAoC. He may have presented that as a fact, but it's an implied personal opinion.
All that stuff about realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign were facts. As they were real things in DAoC. The only thing that can be argued there is realm pride, which to be honest I have seen very little of in ESO.
A part of DAoC was down to when it launched. The advances in graphics technology at that time, the games that people came from. And it launched with promises: lines of tanks with archers in the rear, mages destroying keep walls, guild banks, horses you could ride anywhere ... promises that fell short of what was released.
DAoC was also two games:
The one at launch with limited PvE, broken quests and unstocked dungeons ... guess what you did when you got to 50!
Post shrouded isles - which added ultra-powerful classes; many more PvE quests + bugs; dungeons that took hours ... so no more dropping what you were doing to go and defend your keeps from attack.
DAoC at launch - nothing like TESO; DAoC post SI - closer to TESO but its a stretch to say its akin to DAoC. And for all sorts of reasons I can't see it happening.
I have heard this comparison one too many times now.
The things that made Daoc pvp great were realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign.
Realm Pride: This was HUGE in Daoc. After a while people created toons on other servers to be able to experience other realms, but not before attaching themselves to one realm and hating the other two. This game made you proud to be part of your realm and hate the others with a passion. If your lands were being invaded by another realm you went out to kick their ass, period. You did not need any rewards to motivate you, it was for the shear pleasure of defeating and humiliating the enemy. Even the PvE played to this, the backstory making sure you knew what faction your allegiance belonged to and why you should hate the others. Does anyone here really identify with their faction in ESO? I can't even tell you what races are in each off the top of my head because who cares? Ask a Daoc fan what faction trolls were, or Britons, or Keens.
Server Identity: This megaserver, along with this campaign crap, has destroyed any sense of server identity. In Daoc when the Albs were attacking one of the first things was to ask who is leading them, which guild(s), etc. Or how about the watch out in this area if you are solo (insert name of badass facestabbing infiltrator here) is ganking. You always knew who the other side was, you knew their "doctrine" and tactics, and they knew yours. It made for interesting battles because you could always use the fact the enemy knew you to plot diversions and other tricks. You also knew you own server, you knew your guilds, the most skilled allies you had that you would want to go to war with, etc. You did not only know those in your guild but players on your server, period. It was truly a social event every time you logged in.
Continuous campaign: The war in Daoc never ended. You could not jump ship unless it was to reroll to another server. You either made do with what you had, made alliance, or your life sucked. This created an awesome competitive environment. This whole GW2 thing where your war only lasts x amount of time is just pathetic. It has turned it into a cybersport rather than a war.
This is not Daoc and never will be, just stop.
/rant off
Your right Cryodiil is Dark Age of Camelotesque for consoles cuz thats where this games PvP is going to shine once they wake up and realize this is destined to be a free to play game as who is gonna pay a sub on consoles :P
Then again these next generation consoles are geared for those who got no issues forking out cash for anything and everything. Willing to wait and see how it all plays out....feel free to work out those bugs and gameplay issues for those of us who got the sense to wait this one out
Well almost every console MMO to date has had a sub fee, and on most of them they have quite a large population. Phantasy Star Universe had a large following on the 360 and that had a sub fee, as well as FFXI having a sub fee and a lot of people I knew played that on console. FFXIV now has a large playerbase and a lot are on playstation. Actually the only MMO that I can think of that doesn't have a sub fee on consoles and is doing okay is DCUO
Originally posted by ohioastro Comparing game features that took years to develop against a brand new release is not useful. How does the OP know that players *won't* end up developing strong alliance allegiances in 3 month campaigns once they've been actively PvPing for years? Does he also give stock market tips?
DAoC didn't take that long to develop and - fundamentally - its PvP remained pretty much unchanged. (There was change e.g. nerfs (left hand axe!), map changes, realm ranks were added but the fundamentals remained). ESo on the other hand did take years and had the advantage of looking at everything that DAoC was / is.
DAOC didn't take that long to develop? What DAOC were you playing? It was MONTHS until frontier PvP was even remotely balanced, and even then the kneejerk overbalancing continued for close to 18 months (6 months post SI); and the frontiers were completely redone in June 2004, so that's three YEARS post-release.
Every good MMO takes time to sort itself out, get some balancing passes in, get bugs out, etc. Stop holding ESO to some unattainable standard that no game can, or ever will, reach at release.
This game is dead on for DAOC rvr. Why? The same devs made ESO so yeah allot of common ground right there, the actual mechanics are pretty much dead on along with size of the keeps, landscape and more.
Finally the OP compares the community to the mechanics and sorry OP , but if this is your argument too why people need to stop comparing it's a sad one. Communities change constantly, DAOC had at "times" a good standing community, there where plenty of times we have had guild/factional jumpers as spy's and more and those conversations in the forums in IGN where nothing but flaming wars.
I even doubt you played DAOC, allot of this is general knowledge for the actual long time players of DAOC, your augment is moot.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
The idea to allow switching between campaigns and to have a "mega server" is probably one of the worst things they did for this game. It just means the losers quit and join a different campaign. It's awful, and no one has any identity. Your allies are never the people that you PvE with.
But, its the closest to DAoC that we've gotten in 10 years.
Originally posted by chaintm
Bah didn't even need to go past the first page,
This game is dead on for DAOC rvr. Why? The same devs made ESO
Er, no. ONE former Mythic employee, Matt Firor. Most of Mythic is either a part of City State Entertainment now (Camelot Unchained) or have bee swallowed by EA
Originally posted by Aroukos Guys OP started this thread as a reaction to those who are claiming ESO is a DAoC successor.
WHo is the OP to tell others how something feels to them? I'll repeat it again, you can't take away how someone feels about something or what that thing may remind them of, no matter how long your rant is.
I agree, the OP has no right to tell others how to feel.
(whispers) The OP didn't mention anything in regards how the game made him feel in his rant... just facts.
Wrong again(Maniacal Laugh)
DId you not get what I am saying there, .. So tell me what sparked this rant if not to tell others to not compare the two games at all? WHich would bring up what I said.
1.) My guess would be the people out there saying ESO pvp is the same as DaoC's pvp... it's not. I have friends that think LoTR movies are "as good" as the books... they're not. Realm pride is a huge factor and the reason why ESO doesn't shine in this area has nothing to do with feelings, it has more to do with design. The Races aren't necessarily locked and at level 50 it doesn't matter what faction you chose you can explore any faction you want and do content there. This design is a pride killer and is the one of the reason why its not DoaC. All facts btw...
By all rights it's a good elder scrolls game and it doesn't really need to be DaoC 2. We can just let CU be the second coming of Daoc however, when we have people that never played daoc start making claims, the rants begin.
Are we going to have this same talk about CU in the future? As it to is also going to be different than DAOC, yet inspired by it.
2.) Maybe, it all depends if they get it right.
"Facts"?!?!? "there's no realm pride" that's a fact? EVerything the OP said was his own interpretation of what made DAOC what it was, with that interpretation he feels he can tell everyone else what it was to them, and where they can draw their comparisons. Facts ROFL.
3.) See 1.
Anyway, most probably make the comparison based on this, as they will with CU...
4.) You are correct. No pride ... then it's not DaoC.
A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators, shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both. In other words, it's a sequel "in spirit".
Again, the problem is with people saying that the pvp is the same or as good as ...
There's something you're missing here, everything you said was pretty much subjective, all of it will be governed by personal perception, level of experience, as well as the nuances that bring on the stated feeling. IN this case like DAOC or not like DAOC.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The idea to allow switching between campaigns and to have a "mega server" is probably one of the worst things they did for this game. It just means the losers quit and join a different campaign. It's awful, and no one has any identity. Your allies are never the people that you PvE with.
But, its the closest to DAoC that we've gotten in 10 years.
well you could have multiple factions on daoc, just not on the same cluster , people got around that having multiple accounts, remember healer buff bots? or just jumping servers.
Anyways, I do agree that the megaserver concept pretty much nills the idea of never jumping sides, but at least as you said, the actual rvr is definitely DAOC rvr.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Originally posted by ohioastro Comparing game features that took years to develop against a brand new release is not useful. How does the OP know that players *won't* end up developing strong alliance allegiances in 3 month campaigns once they've been actively PvPing for years? Does he also give stock market tips?
DAoC didn't take that long to develop and - fundamentally - its PvP remained pretty much unchanged. (There was change e.g. nerfs (left hand axe!), map changes, realm ranks were added but the fundamentals remained). ESo on the other hand did take years and had the advantage of looking at everything that DAoC was / is.
DAOC didn't take that long to develop? What DAOC were you playing? It was MONTHS until frontier PvP was even remotely balanced, and even then the kneejerk overbalancing continued for close to 18 months (6 months post SI); and the frontiers were completely redone in June 2004, so that's three YEARS post-release.
Except the problems that the OP identifies will NEVER be sorted out in time. They're not glitches, they're a part of the design.
The idea to allow switching between campaigns and to have a "mega server" is probably one of the worst things they did for this game. It just means the losers quit and join a different campaign. It's awful, and no one has any identity. Your allies are never the people that you PvE with.
But, its the closest to DAoC that we've gotten in 10 years.
Originally posted by chaintm
Bah didn't even need to go past the first page,
This game is dead on for DAOC rvr. Why? The same devs made ESO
Er, no. ONE former Mythic employee, Matt Firor. Most of Mythic is either a part of City State Entertainment now (Camelot Unchained) or have bee swallowed by EA
my bad, meh just saying you can easily see daoc in this game.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
I have heard this comparison one too many times now.
The things that made Daoc pvp great were realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign.
Realm Pride: This was HUGE in Daoc. After a while people created toons on other servers to be able to experience other realms, but not before attaching themselves to one realm and hating the other two. This game made you proud to be part of your realm and hate the others with a passion. If your lands were being invaded by another realm you went out to kick their ass, period. You did not need any rewards to motivate you, it was for the shear pleasure of defeating and humiliating the enemy. Even the PvE played to this, the backstory making sure you knew what faction your allegiance belonged to and why you should hate the others. Does anyone here really identify with their faction in ESO? I can't even tell you what races are in each off the top of my head because who cares? Ask a Daoc fan what faction trolls were, or Britons, or Keens.
Server Identity: This megaserver, along with this campaign crap, has destroyed any sense of server identity. In Daoc when the Albs were attacking one of the first things was to ask who is leading them, which guild(s), etc. Or how about the watch out in this area if you are solo (insert name of badass facestabbing infiltrator here) is ganking. You always knew who the other side was, you knew their "doctrine" and tactics, and they knew yours. It made for interesting battles because you could always use the fact the enemy knew you to plot diversions and other tricks. You also knew you own server, you knew your guilds, the most skilled allies you had that you would want to go to war with, etc. You did not only know those in your guild but players on your server, period. It was truly a social event every time you logged in.
Continuous campaign: The war in Daoc never ended. You could not jump ship unless it was to reroll to another server. You either made do with what you had, made alliance, or your life sucked. This created an awesome competitive environment. This whole GW2 thing where your war only lasts x amount of time is just pathetic. It has turned it into a cybersport rather than a war.
This is not Daoc and never will be, just stop.
/rant off
Never played DAOC myself, but I know where you're coming from. SWG also had very strong faction pride, guild rivalries, knowing the names of your allies as well as enemies, etc. It's all part of what made it one of the best experiences I've had in a game.
Except the problems that the OP identifies will NEVER be sorted out in time. They're not glitches, they're a part of the design.
Most of the "problems" the OP and yourself stated will depend greatly on where the community takes the game, more so than where Zenimax does. Especially when it comes to "realm pride" turncoats, meaningful competition,Allies, which breeds meaningful long lasting PVP environments.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Never played DAOC myself, but I know where you're coming from. SWG also had very strong faction pride, guild rivalries, knowing the names of your allies as well as enemies, etc. It's all part of what made it one of the best experiences I've had in a game.
SWG was something else entirely. SWG was more about an overall community, that many of which still regularly game together, you don't see a lot of that in regard to DAOC, most of it's communities scattered into many different types of games. THere are still large communities that have developed from different SWG servers both IMP and Rebel all over the net; carrying on those relationships they formed where ever they can. Be it forums, other sandboxes (EVE) or Emu's.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Realm pride happens because of factions specialities. I've never played DAoC, but I played GW2 and PS2, and I know for sure that the feel of "Realm pride" happens because factions have special weapons, landscapes, classes, races. (PS2 has some, GW2 has none). In ESO, races should have been restricted to factions, that would have created some faction advantages (This faction has more powerfull mages, while this one has stronger warriors, ...). I also think an assymetric landscapes could help (asymetric keeps, all keeps are the same for each factions)
The thing about megaserver is that people you meet in PvE aren't the people you'll meet in PvP, this kind of erases the whole "After this dungeon, I'll defend our faction, you guys come ?" and removes server pride a bit. I also think an open-PvP not restricted into a battleground would have been better and fit better to the game, but that's my opinion.
There was a lot of possibilities, a lot of potential in ESO's AvA. ESO, instead of trying to make a more sandboxy PvP, they just went full themepark and didn't try to bring something new to the table.
When you read the OP's post, it definitely comes across as a bash-thread, whether intended or not. Thus the defensive posts from people who feel differently, or from people like myself, who judge games on their own merits, and not on comparisons to other games.
However, from this post came some useful posts discussing the differences between DAOC and ESO and what ESO could do to improve. These posts are interesting and useful, since they are aimed at improving ESO, and not simply bashing it.
I also played DAOC, I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it wasn't perfect... hell, it was deeply flawed at first, much like ESO (remember when Thanes just stood on the other side of walls and doors and spammed their AoEs, killing everyone assaulting the doors at no risk to themselves?).
My point is, it's unfair to bash ESO at release based on what DAOC was years after release. It takes time to get there. So rather than create flame wars based on personal loyalty, let's talk aobut what ESO can do to bring it closer to the DAOC-ideal (or any other ideal, if you prefer).
LOL, maybe this one won't get deleted, as I tried not to attack anyone
T
OP know what talking about ,He is 100% right !
ESO has different pvp gameplay ,DAOC is pvp focused mmo,ESO is pve focused mmo
I agree, the OP has no right to tell others how to feel.
(whispers) The OP didn't mention anything in regards to how the game made him feel in his rant... just the facts.
Wrong again (Maniacal Laugh)
Will you stop being reasonable? You are taking the fun right out of this thread.
DId you not get what I am saying there, .. So tell me what sparked this rant if not to tell others to not compare the two games at all? WHich would bring up what I said.
Are we going to have this same talk about CU in the future? As it to is also going to be different than DAOC, yet inspired by it.
"Facts"?!?!? "there's no realm pride" that's a fact? EVerything the OP said was his own interpretation of what made DAOC what it was, with that interpretation he feels he can tell everyone else what it was to them, and where they can draw their comparisons. Facts ROFL.
Anyway, most probably make the comparison based on this, as they will with CU...
A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators, shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both. In other words, it's a sequel "in spirit".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
One of the reasons I left PS2 was because the obivious differences between the factions, different landscapes might be problem tactically too. Noone wants to play the "nerfed" side, if you make factions speciallize in certain areas it creates a bad environment, "I can't play the way I want in a specific area because the other sides always have the advantage on that area", you will please way more people with balanced sides rather than your suggestion.
Realm pride is subjective to the player, the developers can help desenvolve it, but it ultimately falls to the player.
DAoC didn't take that long to develop and - fundamentally - its PvP remained pretty much unchanged. (There was change e.g. nerfs (left hand axe!), map changes, realm ranks were added but the fundamentals remained). ESo on the other hand did take years and had the advantage of looking at everything that DAoC was / is.
Dark Age Of Camelot - Gareth - Alderienne (keen eldritch)
OP,
Myself and many other DAoC veterans disagree with you. Please stop stating subjective opinion as objective fact. If you don't like it and you don't feel it lives up to DAoC's standard that's fine. But please refrain from making blanket declarative statements as if no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the matter.
I played DAOC more than any game I have ever played and actually bought ESO because some people were saying ESO is like Daoc.
ESO is no Doac, not in game play, spirit, feel or any other way I could tell.
What is it specifically that you disagree with? And where are all these "many" other DAoC vets that disagree?
OP brought up some valid points.
The only opinion he brought up was that he didn't feel ESO compared to DAoC. He may have presented that as a fact, but it's an implied personal opinion.
All that stuff about realm pride, server identity, and a continuous campaign were facts. As they were real things in DAoC. The only thing that can be argued there is realm pride, which to be honest I have seen very little of in ESO.
*edit: typo
A part of DAoC was down to when it launched. The advances in graphics technology at that time, the games that people came from. And it launched with promises: lines of tanks with archers in the rear, mages destroying keep walls, guild banks, horses you could ride anywhere ... promises that fell short of what was released.
DAoC was also two games:
Well almost every console MMO to date has had a sub fee, and on most of them they have quite a large population. Phantasy Star Universe had a large following on the 360 and that had a sub fee, as well as FFXI having a sub fee and a lot of people I knew played that on console. FFXIV now has a large playerbase and a lot are on playstation. Actually the only MMO that I can think of that doesn't have a sub fee on consoles and is doing okay is DCUO
DAOC didn't take that long to develop? What DAOC were you playing? It was MONTHS until frontier PvP was even remotely balanced, and even then the kneejerk overbalancing continued for close to 18 months (6 months post SI); and the frontiers were completely redone in June 2004, so that's three YEARS post-release.
Every good MMO takes time to sort itself out, get some balancing passes in, get bugs out, etc. Stop holding ESO to some unattainable standard that no game can, or ever will, reach at release.
T
Bah didn't even need to go past the first page,
This game is dead on for DAOC rvr. Why? The same devs made ESO so yeah allot of common ground right there, the actual mechanics are pretty much dead on along with size of the keeps, landscape and more.
Finally the OP compares the community to the mechanics and sorry OP , but if this is your argument too why people need to stop comparing it's a sad one. Communities change constantly, DAOC had at "times" a good standing community, there where plenty of times we have had guild/factional jumpers as spy's and more and those conversations in the forums in IGN where nothing but flaming wars.
I even doubt you played DAOC, allot of this is general knowledge for the actual long time players of DAOC, your augment is moot.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
You aren't wrong.
The idea to allow switching between campaigns and to have a "mega server" is probably one of the worst things they did for this game. It just means the losers quit and join a different campaign. It's awful, and no one has any identity. Your allies are never the people that you PvE with.
But, its the closest to DAoC that we've gotten in 10 years.
Er, no. ONE former Mythic employee, Matt Firor. Most of Mythic is either a part of City State Entertainment now (Camelot Unchained) or have bee swallowed by EA
There's something you're missing here, everything you said was pretty much subjective, all of it will be governed by personal perception, level of experience, as well as the nuances that bring on the stated feeling. IN this case like DAOC or not like DAOC.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
well you could have multiple factions on daoc, just not on the same cluster , people got around that having multiple accounts, remember healer buff bots? or just jumping servers.
Anyways, I do agree that the megaserver concept pretty much nills the idea of never jumping sides, but at least as you said, the actual rvr is definitely DAOC rvr.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Except the problems that the OP identifies will NEVER be sorted out in time. They're not glitches, they're a part of the design.
my bad, meh just saying you can easily see daoc in this game.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Never played DAOC myself, but I know where you're coming from. SWG also had very strong faction pride, guild rivalries, knowing the names of your allies as well as enemies, etc. It's all part of what made it one of the best experiences I've had in a game.
Most of the "problems" the OP and yourself stated will depend greatly on where the community takes the game, more so than where Zenimax does. Especially when it comes to "realm pride" turncoats, meaningful competition,Allies, which breeds meaningful long lasting PVP environments.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SWG was something else entirely. SWG was more about an overall community, that many of which still regularly game together, you don't see a lot of that in regard to DAOC, most of it's communities scattered into many different types of games. THere are still large communities that have developed from different SWG servers both IMP and Rebel all over the net; carrying on those relationships they formed where ever they can. Be it forums, other sandboxes (EVE) or Emu's.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson