Originally posted by dbgager As far as Coordinated and planned killing of a Boss Mob where it took specific tactics to kill a very hard boss giving the group some pride in there accomplishment. ,and the coordination of the group that was neccessary. It does not exist in this game. Its just a zerg fest on the boss..rinse and repeat.
It exists in the instanced dungeons of which ESO has many. There are three starting at level 12.
Originally posted by dranael Would make the game a thousand times better. Make it a option for players to only alow groups inside or be public. RIght now they are so f*cking packed with people they have no feel of danger.
Yep, they would also give that Elder Scrolls "unto the unknown" exploration feel when you enter a dungeon but now it's just a click fest to get some hits off on the mobs and that annoying gold farmer blob at the end of every dungeon, you trying to get one powerful enough hit on the boss to get the dungeon complete mark.
Edit; also main quests should be instanced, all of them. Obviously they are tailored at me so it's silly there's other people running around when "you are the only one who can do this!" is a common theme, so what are all these other mute people running around there doing the same thing?
I'll say it again, the leveling content is singleplayer/coop (if you could coop it) content, it's pointless to hard stomp it into a MMO open content, if anything it just hurts the content.
Originally posted by jonesing22 or zenimax could just do something about the bots and the campers.
Well that's the thing. In the level 1(3)-15 areas, they are bots in the dungeons. In the higher areas they are campers. I can see them getting rid of the bots, but you can't really dislodge the campers because they are not really breaking any TOS by being there. Even though they add the same cheapening effect to open non-instanced dungeons that the bots do. That was a ZOS design decision and players are just going to have to accept it. For now, solo dungeons are only good for grabbing the skyshard and maybe getting a tap on the "boss" for the achievement.
Instancing dungeons is always a bad idea...you would not understand if you grew up on a diet of modern games. Non-instanced games make you and your friends work together...Dungeons in the EQ1 days were a blast unlike most dungeons today...much more fun and part of the fun was competing with other guilds for bosses. On my old server we had an organization, that spawned out of such competitions, to set a civilized rotation to access bosses and planes and all similar things...this helped make a community and
helped all of us on the server to work together or at least productively in a civilized manner. These days it's screw everyone and I want to get done with the game first so I can bitch and moan...little to no community no comradeship...generally just like the real world is these days...total crap
Perhaps it was unintended, but open dungeons like LGuk, Nurga, Droga, and even outdoor dungeon-ish places like Mistmoore used to be the main reason for EQ's success. It built a community, it introduced you to new people that you became "friends" with and really kept you tethered to the product. If you were going to leave it was difficult to leave those people behind, much like moving to a new place in real life. That's why a lot of the exits you saw were entire guilds moving to another game.
But I don't think instancing is an altogether bad idea, at all. For raid bosses? Yes. The competition was vital, and that's why we had the Karana Council of Guilds. For lower level content I feel like a combination of public openness and instancing (for lack of a better term in my head right now) would have been a great solution. In BB there weren't enough mobs to go around, and in both of them it would have gotten rid of the train griefing that was so common - and NOT a fun part of the game, although surely a memory we original EQ'ers will not soon forget. For those that enjoy it I think it would have let certain zones remain more popular through expansions, rather than eventually funneling all of the experience through a PC>Netherbian>Guk path. But then again reducing the XP mod there would have done the trick as well.
Gamers now have changed. Half of them have no interest in talking to each other, and want nearly everything to be a solo experience. Hell, even I have changed. I was all about grouping when I started MMOs. Now I solo or duo what I can, and seek help and new allies for things I can't do alone.
TL:DR - I played EQ, and I don't think instancing is the downfall of MMOs if used sparingly to enhance the experience rather than have other factors detract from it. Oh, and Karana Council of Guilds FTW.
You know there is a lot of people who want OPEN world dungeons. But the fact is, that goldsellers use open dungeons now to exploit them and gold farm, just like in FFXI, when you went to farm Raid Mats in open world dungeons to get the mats to even start the raid, you would see 10-20 goldsellers who had third party botting claim programs that you had to compete with for it. Wasn't fun. Days of OPEN dungeons are now long gone if a company cant deal with goldsellers.
The thing is EQ1's non-instanced dungeons worked because the combat was much slower and you couldn't just /faceroll through a dungeon with zero risk (I am talking back in 1999/2000 not today).
Remember EQ1s vanilla combat - it would take several minutes just to kill one mob sometimes (especially solo) - even in groups combat took a lot longer than in any of the more recent MMOs. EQ1 was based on old DnD dice rolls - so there were a lot of misses, dodges, blocks, parries etc...
Also mobs ran on low health and they would call for help and draw aggro on you.
In ESO - i face 6 enemies - they all die in less than 10s flat - because I NEVER miss - nothing ever dodges or parries anything I do, nothing ever runs to draw more aggro. All the mobs just stand there and die to my triple AoE (burning talons/fire breath/pulsar) - this happened the entire game, pre level 50 and all VR ranks.
I hate to disagree (not true) and further hijack (true), but non-instanced indoor dungeons in EQ worked for many reasons, not the least of which was because of limitations on spells. Removing the "dungeon" portion of the discussion I really don't see a difference between what you describe and 40 mobs trotting after Bards in SK or OT on Everquest. They don't run, they don't try to escape, they just keep following and getting slowly killed by what I can only assume is a constant singing of a Britney Spears song. Hit me baby one more time? Probably.
Swarm kiting and AE groups may not have been as popular before they became common knowledge, but it certainly existed.
FWIW I do agree the simplicity of ESO combat is what currently keeps me from playing much, and one of the reasons I hit "cancel" while futher examining if I wanted to keep playing.
As an aside: Most here probably think I'm an ESO fanboy rather than just giving honest opinions when I think someone is being overly critical or unfair in their assessment. It just so happens the negative threads drastically outweigh the positive, so I come off as fanboy-ish when saying "Well, I wouldn't go that far..."
The only problem with the open dungeons is that they are too easy. They need to phase players apart so they aren't heavily populated, and turn the mobs into elites.
And then add real rewards. You can't even call the public dungeons dungeons right now. One boss with crap loot does not make a dungeon.
The only problem with the open dungeons is that they are too easy. They need to phase players apart so they aren't heavily populated, and turn the mobs into elites.
And then add real rewards. You can't even call the public dungeons dungeons right now. One boss with crap loot does not make a dungeon.
I can't really consider these dungeons either.
The entrance to Old Seb in EQ was larger and more challenging (and better loot) then any dungeon I've seen so far (level 43)
One point that i'll make about the bosses being camped in ESO so much. Zen pretty much nerfed any XP and drops outside of their precious story that there is only a handful of Mobs left to camp in each area if there's a player that doesn't feel like questing.
I find myself camping these bosses for their pitiful drops just because it's all that's left when I need a break from questing.
Possible solution? Put some mobs in areas for people who don't like to quest grind to mob grind/farm/ etc.
The only problem with the open dungeons is that they are too easy. They need to phase players apart so they aren't heavily populated, and turn the mobs into elites.
And then add real rewards. You can't even call the public dungeons dungeons right now. One boss with crap loot does not make a dungeon.
I can't really consider these dungeons either.
The entrance to Old Seb in EQ was larger and more challenging (and better loot) then any dungeon I've seen so far (level 43)
One point that i'll make about the bosses being camped in ESO so much. Zen pretty much nerfed any XP and drops outside of their precious story that there is only a handful of Mobs left to camp in each area if there's a player that doesn't feel like questing.
I find myself camping these bosses for their pitiful drops just because it's all that's left when I need a break from questing.
Possible solution? Put some mobs in areas for people who don't like to quest grind to mob grind/farm/ etc.
All I can say is don't be part of the problem. You make the game worse for everybody by not being willing to share the content. Its not the end of the world if you cannot get loot and XP as fast as possible.
I agree 100% with the OP, there needs to be a checkbox in the settings menu that you can check so each dungeon you enter will be instanced. That way you can toggle it on or off in case you enter a particularly difficult dungeon.
Its silly to run into a dungeon and not have to kill one thing to get to your objective. I can see why power levelers would like this because it speeds up your leveling but I want to play the game and work my way through the dungeon not run into an empty dungeon and grab what I need and run out.
I don't know what that would do to the servers if it runs that many instances though. That might be why they didn't put that option in.
The problem is, it's probably to late now. This kind of thing should have been sorted out during the basic design phase. To change it now is a lot of work, patching and testing. So it may never happen.
People like to bash SWTOR. But one of the things it got right was grouping, instancing and dungeons (you know, the basic MMO stuff). You are never in a situation where you are having to camp quest bosses, line up to press a button/do a puzzle 1 at a time (lol what), or seeing invisible group members you can't help or interact with.
there is both, there is ppl that enjoy both so why take it away? just cuz you don't want it, never had mmos with it?
i for one find it refreshing as open dungeons are fun & different. i enjoyed them a lot in swg/daoc also - actual bot problem aside. i personally would like to have more harder open dungeons tho or maybe i there are later on, dunno but until 28 there has only been 1 tougher one while the rest is short ones.
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It exists in the instanced dungeons of which ESO has many. There are three starting at level 12.
Yep, they would also give that Elder Scrolls "unto the unknown" exploration feel when you enter a dungeon but now it's just a click fest to get some hits off on the mobs and that annoying gold farmer blob at the end of every dungeon, you trying to get one powerful enough hit on the boss to get the dungeon complete mark.
Edit; also main quests should be instanced, all of them. Obviously they are tailored at me so it's silly there's other people running around when "you are the only one who can do this!" is a common theme, so what are all these other mute people running around there doing the same thing?
I'll say it again, the leveling content is singleplayer/coop (if you could coop it) content, it's pointless to hard stomp it into a MMO open content, if anything it just hurts the content.
Well that's the thing. In the level 1(3)-15 areas, they are bots in the dungeons. In the higher areas they are campers. I can see them getting rid of the bots, but you can't really dislodge the campers because they are not really breaking any TOS by being there. Even though they add the same cheapening effect to open non-instanced dungeons that the bots do. That was a ZOS design decision and players are just going to have to accept it. For now, solo dungeons are only good for grabbing the skyshard and maybe getting a tap on the "boss" for the achievement.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Perhaps it was unintended, but open dungeons like LGuk, Nurga, Droga, and even outdoor dungeon-ish places like Mistmoore used to be the main reason for EQ's success. It built a community, it introduced you to new people that you became "friends" with and really kept you tethered to the product. If you were going to leave it was difficult to leave those people behind, much like moving to a new place in real life. That's why a lot of the exits you saw were entire guilds moving to another game.
But I don't think instancing is an altogether bad idea, at all. For raid bosses? Yes. The competition was vital, and that's why we had the Karana Council of Guilds. For lower level content I feel like a combination of public openness and instancing (for lack of a better term in my head right now) would have been a great solution. In BB there weren't enough mobs to go around, and in both of them it would have gotten rid of the train griefing that was so common - and NOT a fun part of the game, although surely a memory we original EQ'ers will not soon forget. For those that enjoy it I think it would have let certain zones remain more popular through expansions, rather than eventually funneling all of the experience through a PC>Netherbian>Guk path. But then again reducing the XP mod there would have done the trick as well.
Gamers now have changed. Half of them have no interest in talking to each other, and want nearly everything to be a solo experience. Hell, even I have changed. I was all about grouping when I started MMOs. Now I solo or duo what I can, and seek help and new allies for things I can't do alone.
TL:DR - I played EQ, and I don't think instancing is the downfall of MMOs if used sparingly to enhance the experience rather than have other factors detract from it. Oh, and Karana Council of Guilds FTW.
- Nellus
I hate to disagree (not true) and further hijack (true), but non-instanced indoor dungeons in EQ worked for many reasons, not the least of which was because of limitations on spells. Removing the "dungeon" portion of the discussion I really don't see a difference between what you describe and 40 mobs trotting after Bards in SK or OT on Everquest. They don't run, they don't try to escape, they just keep following and getting slowly killed by what I can only assume is a constant singing of a Britney Spears song. Hit me baby one more time? Probably.
Swarm kiting and AE groups may not have been as popular before they became common knowledge, but it certainly existed.
FWIW I do agree the simplicity of ESO combat is what currently keeps me from playing much, and one of the reasons I hit "cancel" while futher examining if I wanted to keep playing.
As an aside: Most here probably think I'm an ESO fanboy rather than just giving honest opinions when I think someone is being overly critical or unfair in their assessment. It just so happens the negative threads drastically outweigh the positive, so I come off as fanboy-ish when saying "Well, I wouldn't go that far..."
- Nellus
The only problem with the open dungeons is that they are too easy. They need to phase players apart so they aren't heavily populated, and turn the mobs into elites.
And then add real rewards. You can't even call the public dungeons dungeons right now. One boss with crap loot does not make a dungeon.
I can't really consider these dungeons either.
The entrance to Old Seb in EQ was larger and more challenging (and better loot) then any dungeon I've seen so far (level 43)
One point that i'll make about the bosses being camped in ESO so much. Zen pretty much nerfed any XP and drops outside of their precious story that there is only a handful of Mobs left to camp in each area if there's a player that doesn't feel like questing.
I find myself camping these bosses for their pitiful drops just because it's all that's left when I need a break from questing.
Possible solution? Put some mobs in areas for people who don't like to quest grind to mob grind/farm/ etc.
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All I can say is don't be part of the problem. You make the game worse for everybody by not being willing to share the content. Its not the end of the world if you cannot get loot and XP as fast as possible.
I agree 100% with the OP, there needs to be a checkbox in the settings menu that you can check so each dungeon you enter will be instanced. That way you can toggle it on or off in case you enter a particularly difficult dungeon.
Its silly to run into a dungeon and not have to kill one thing to get to your objective. I can see why power levelers would like this because it speeds up your leveling but I want to play the game and work my way through the dungeon not run into an empty dungeon and grab what I need and run out.
I don't know what that would do to the servers if it runs that many instances though. That might be why they didn't put that option in.
The problem is, it's probably to late now. This kind of thing should have been sorted out during the basic design phase. To change it now is a lot of work, patching and testing. So it may never happen.
People like to bash SWTOR. But one of the things it got right was grouping, instancing and dungeons (you know, the basic MMO stuff). You are never in a situation where you are having to camp quest bosses, line up to press a button/do a puzzle 1 at a time (lol what), or seeing invisible group members you can't help or interact with.
there is both, there is ppl that enjoy both so why take it away? just cuz you don't want it, never had mmos with it?
i for one find it refreshing as open dungeons are fun & different. i enjoyed them a lot in swg/daoc also - actual bot problem aside. i personally would like to have more harder open dungeons tho or maybe i there are later on, dunno but until 28 there has only been 1 tougher one while the rest is short ones.
open dungeons in rvr areas = fun as well :P