Instead of disparaging, might you have a better answer? Or is it going to be "It's not my game, I don't need to solve the botting problem. I'm just going to talk down about the game because I have nothing better to do."? You're one of THOSE guys, aren't you?
Why the hostility? I admire their effort, its a step in the right direction.
Originally posted by Asariasha
Why do you call it clueless? Of course the bots will soon include chat monitors and perform automated actions. The fight against bots has always been a cold war for publishers and it will continue to be this way.
As long as you do not want to add sniffing technology to the client that in the end could be bypassed, in-game monitoring is the only way to effectively detect bots. It is an expensive method due to additional personel costs, but as a customer I expect that a part of my subscription fee is used to maintain such a service.
Thumbs up to this approach!
I called it clueless because most gamers, including you as you demonstrated with your post, knew that this method is going to fail. I find it amusing in a -- tap on the head -- "Well done, Zenimax" way.
----
There are many monitoring possibilities and deterring methods that will effectively make bots and farming a single mob over and over not worth the effort. These methods are well known and documented and I bet you can find them on Google if you did a little research.
----
Closing I like to say that I still admire the effort of this Gamemaster and its good to see something is done even if its not very effective.
yeah, but those methods have to be implemented which takes time and generates a lot of bugs which have to be fixed before they can rollout any kind of advanced protection. Yeah, they should've done this before the game went live but they didn't and they have to cope with it now.
So this is a temporary solution and it's the simplest one, not really time efficient or staff efficient, but well...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 They definitely put on a show, lol. But it solves nothing. Until they actually get their network administrators in there to retrieve mac addresses and IP addresses for those accounts and ban them nothing's going to change.
Your missing the point I feel this is a stop gap measure put in place to try and relieve some of the issues while they look into a more cost and time effective global response.
What its showing is yes they are aware that there is a problem and they have given the GMs the powers needed to relieve it when encountered and time allowing.
Its a good thing worst possible thing they could do is a knee jerk reaction banning IP addresses willy nilly. I seriously doubt ANY of the botters are using their normal IP address.
Originally posted by Horusra just because you do not like the design choice does not make it a beta.
I didn't say it was a beta I said it felt like a beta . Try and absorb whats written before making a comment . If it was just me that didn't like the design choice it wouldn't be a big problem but if you look at the elder scrolls forums there are huge numbers of people that don't like it . I know quite a few people who are going to quit the game until such times things like this are fixed . You may like it because it make things easy for you . People like different levels of challenge and you may enjoy a more casual game experience than I do but if I wanted such a thing I would be playing World of Warcraft and not the Elder Scrolls .
For anyone who wants to view this problem for themselves they can see it here on the Angry Joe review at around 23 minutes into the video
Its actually quite a good review and does illustrate what the current state of the game is .
There has been a visible reduction in the level of online gold spam - the guild invites have vanished for me, there are many fewer in zone chat even in the starter zones, and I'm getting far fewer emails. Resource nodes can be found now, suggesting that they've made real progress against the bot harvesters. The world has not ended for the economy.
The dungeon bosses are a design loophole, and this is hardly the first MMO to have such a thing. The reward per hour is better than it is elsewhere, it has no risk at all, and mmo players (both live and bots) farm for cash. This will get fixed and tons of people who like to get goodies with no risk will complain. This is MMO 101.
Honest critics would applaud moves like this and note the improvements in the game. People who are invested in attacking it will ignore improvements and move on to the next complaint.
Originally posted by Horusra just because you do not like the design choice does not make it a beta.
I didn't say it was a beta I said it felt like a beta . Try and absorb whats written before making a comment . If it was just me that didn't like the design choice it wouldn't be a big problem but if you look at the elder scrolls forums there are huge numbers of people that don't like it . I know quite a few people who are going to quit the game until such times things like this are fixed . You may like it because it make things easy for you . People like different levels of challenge and you may enjoy a more casual game experience than I do but if I wanted such a thing I would be playing World of Warcraft and not the Elder Scrolls .
For anyone who wants to view this problem for themselves they can see it here on the Angry Joe review at around 23 minutes into the video
Its actually quite a good review and does illustrate what the current state of the game is .
In these forums "honest" seems to be a symonym for "hates the game just like I do". This is not, remotely, an honest review. It's a hit piece that neglects anything positive, exaggerates problems, and makes no note of progres. It's also done by an extremely vocal opponent of MMO subscription fees.
Back when I used to play wow I was farming some elementals for a questionable amount of time and I started being followed by a deer(critter). It was really bizarre because it was literally following me everywhere I went. I started killing it and it would respawn a second later.
I eventually said in /say "I'm not a bot I'm just bored" and the little deer went away.
Originally posted by Horusra just because you do not like the design choice does not make it a beta.
I didn't say it was a beta I said it felt like a beta . Try and absorb whats written before making a comment . If it was just me that didn't like the design choice it wouldn't be a big problem but if you look at the elder scrolls forums there are huge numbers of people that don't like it . I know quite a few people who are going to quit the game until such times things like this are fixed . You may like it because it make things easy for you . People like different levels of challenge and you may enjoy a more casual game experience than I do but if I wanted such a thing I would be playing World of Warcraft and not the Elder Scrolls .
For anyone who wants to view this problem for themselves they can see it here on the Angry Joe review at around 23 minutes into the video
Its actually quite a good review and does illustrate what the current state of the game is .
In these forums "honest" seems to be a symonym for "hates the game just like I do". This is not, remotely, an honest review. It's a hit piece that neglects anything positive, exaggerates problems, and makes no note of progres. It's also done by an extremely vocal opponent of MMO subscription fees.
OK, that get's quoted, heck I'm guilty of it on occasion.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Horusra They are called public dungeons for a reason...not quest dungeons.
Its a bad game design they are overcrowded and spoil that game experience for those of us that like a bit of challenge . They should have been limited to 5-10 players or have time locks on them . I like the game itself on the whole but there are so many things in its design I find unacceptable that I doubt I will be staying long term . When they fix these issues I will be more than happy to come back . As Angry Joe said in his review it does feel like a beta . It should never have been released in this state .
That's the beauty of the VR zones. Most mmos I can get to max level on autopilot. In ESO you're going to repeatedly die if you don't actually fight the enemies. Hell, last night chat was filled with complaints from people dying so much. I still think it's pretty easy, but when I'm in a quest area or public dungeon I always see someone rez and then start following me because they're tired of dying. Or someone waiting for someone else to show up at the boss of a public dungeon, world boss, anchor because they can't kill it alone.
Originally posted by Horusra just because you do not like the design choice does not make it a beta.
I didn't say it was a beta I said it felt like a beta . Try and absorb whats written before making a comment . If it was just me that didn't like the design choice it wouldn't be a big problem but if you look at the elder scrolls forums there are huge numbers of people that don't like it . I know quite a few people who are going to quit the game until such times things like this are fixed . You may like it because it make things easy for you . People like different levels of challenge and you may enjoy a more casual game experience than I do but if I wanted such a thing I would be playing World of Warcraft and not the Elder Scrolls .
For anyone who wants to view this problem for themselves they can see it here on the Angry Joe review at around 23 minutes into the video
Its actually quite a good review and does illustrate what the current state of the game is .
In these forums "honest" seems to be a symonym for "hates the game just like I do". This is not, remotely, an honest review. It's a hit piece that neglects anything positive, exaggerates problems, and makes no note of progres. It's also done by an extremely vocal opponent of MMO subscription fees.
He does say he likes the combat and pvp . I don't agree with the part where he says the game world isn't that impressive . Its one of the nicer mmos I've seen graphically . The part at 23.00 on wards isn't exaggerated I saw it happening with that same spider boss yesterday . I would say he has offered an honest review of how he feels about the game . Because its not as possative the fans of the game such as yourself see it a dishonest . I like the game generally speaking and I prefer the subscription model but it has to be worth it . I don't even mind a few bugs on release in fact I expect them but what I don't expect is design flaws like the type of boss farming that is demonstrated in the video . This should have been spotted by the developers as a potential exploit and there should have been a loot timer put on it .
Is this pertaining to the problem of people camping the bosses in the open dungeons for loot ?
If it is I'm all for anyone that is caught doing it to be banned . I will say its a sloppy design on the part of the developers which should have been resolved before released .
I believe they are looking to rectify this but in the meantime if your caught doing it bot or not then you deserve to be banned and it appears that is what may indeed happen to you .
Wait, what?
camping a Boss in a MMO is now considered sloppy design and needs to be banned? Holy cow... i don't want to play MMOs anymore i guess
Its actually a big problem with the games design . In allowing people into public quest dungeons your getting overcrowding . When you get to the boss its being camped by at least 20 people . I assume a lot of them are bots . The boss respawns every two or three minutes and people are killing it again and again for loot . Its even hard to get a shot in on it because it dies so quickly . The same thing is happening at werewolf and vampire spawn points . Gold farmers are camping them so no one can get bitten and then charging players gold for a bite ( because players who have been bitten can bite other players ) . I don't think you quite understand whats happening . Have a look at the angry joe review on youtube and you may not be quite so flippant . It explains the problem very well and its probably not as you envision it now .
You can see the problem for yourself here at 23.40 on the video.
I have been playing ESO in beta for quite a while. So i am sure i DO understand. Also i saw AJ review and agree with almost every aspect he mentions.
In my book killing bosses in dungeons is a FEATURE every game should have and REWARD tho. Without a quest. Quests are a feature id actually try and remove from gaming alltogether.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
If you don't like quests this is definitely not the game for you. They've already modified the overworld bosses so they drop unique and useful (but zero-resale value) blue gear. They are not camped like crazy and beating them is a nice challenge. I bet that they simply go that same route for the dungeon ones.
Is this pertaining to the problem of people camping the bosses in the open dungeons for loot ?
If it is I'm all for anyone that is caught doing it to be banned . I will say its a sloppy design on the part of the developers which should have been resolved before released .
I believe they are looking to rectify this but in the meantime if your caught doing it bot or not then you deserve to be banned and it appears that is what may indeed happen to you .
Wait, what?
camping a Boss in a MMO is now considered sloppy design and needs to be banned? Holy cow... i don't want to play MMOs anymore i guess
Its actually a big problem with the games design . In allowing people into public quest dungeons your getting overcrowding . When you get to the boss its being camped by at least 20 people . I assume a lot of them are bots . The boss respawns every two or three minutes and people are killing it again and again for loot . Its even hard to get a shot in on it because it dies so quickly . The same thing is happening at werewolf and vampire spawn points . Gold farmers are camping them so no one can get bitten and then charging players gold for a bite ( because players who have been bitten can bite other players ) . I don't think you quite understand whats happening . Have a look at the angry joe review on youtube and you may not be quite so flippant . It explains the problem very well and its probably not as you envision it now .
You can see the problem for yourself here at 23.40 on the video.
I have been playing ESO in beta for quite a while. So i am sure i DO understand. Also i saw AJ review and agree with almost every aspect he mentions.
In my book killing bosses in dungeons is a FEATURE every game should have and REWARD tho. Without a quest. Quests are a feature id actually try and remove from gaming alltogether.
I think you probably are in a minority there . If you are one of those people who are repeatedly killing these bosses it sound like you may wish to rethink doing it in future or you may get your account banned . Also if you don't like questing why are you in the Elder Scrolls as its all about questing . Perhaps a sandbox game would be more to your liking ?
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
EDIT: Just saw another screenshot with an in-game GM that was in gold text so maybe this is real after all. Good for them, scourge those godforsaken botters.
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 They definitely put on a show, lol. But it solves nothing. Until they actually get their network administrators in there to retrieve mac addresses and IP addresses for those accounts and ban them nothing's going to change.
Your missing the point I feel this is a stop gap measure put in place to try and relieve some of the issues while they look into a more cost and time effective global response.
What its showing is yes they are aware that there is a problem and they have given the GMs the powers needed to relieve it when encountered and time allowing.
Its a good thing worst possible thing they could do is a knee jerk reaction banning IP addresses willy nilly. I seriously doubt ANY of the botters are using their normal IP address.
Oh I'm not missing the point. I know that they're going for a temporary fix. But temporary fixes solve nearly nothing.
If that is a GM that's a good step. Not a permanent solution, but it at least shows people Zenimax is doing something, even if it just nibbles at the issue (assuming they have a plan they are working on in the meantime). I don't believe in doing nothing if it doesn't solve the issue 100% on the first try.
Just the goodwill generated by having reports of GMs nuking bots will be immeasurable. Plus the chances for hilarious screen shots if they take the time to embellish a little. GW1 summoned Grenth, the god of the underworld, to perma kill the offender.
Saw lots of these kind of screenshots at reddit, seems like GM's stepped in for the bot problem at last:
I still don't like the game and i won't be subbing again (i also got my refund) but this is a good step and needs to be said.
Now i hope this real time banning is not a "one-time-only" thing and will continue, and gold sellers will be treated the same.
This is not going to solve the problem but I admire the effort and think it's kinda cute how clueless Zenimax are.
----
Why? Bots will just start monitoring chat and step away or log out when it contains the word "Gamemaster".
Instead of disparaging, might you have a better answer? Or is it going to be "It's not my game, I don't need to solve the botting problem. I'm just going to talk down about the game because I have nothing better to do."? You're one of THOSE guys, aren't you?
Actually hes probably one of the botters who knows just how to fix it... Notice the its kinda cute statement? In all reality, players like me and you love the fact that the game master gets off their ass and shows a sign of something happening in game, even if its futile.
Can we stop looking to angry joe for MMO reviews? He doesn't play MMO's, and hes not a veteran of MMO's, so his opinion on MMO's should be treated as such
GMs actively observing character behavior and seeking bots to ban WILL clean up the game.. This is a P2P game.
Bots can likely get an account for roughly $30. So, every ban forces them to pay $30 to continue their operation.
A GM can literally pay their own salary by banning ONE bot an hour.
Bots get an account for 0$.
How?
Stolen accounts cost nothing.
Most bots are other players hacked accounts. So when they ban the bots, they're banning player's accounts that were hacked.
Also - guess what - the bots are back in that same location - so that lasted several hours - not very effective, which is why other games don't waste GMs time like that.
This was done to appease the community moreso than fight the bots - this post is the real reason why it was done - so that it "appears" like they're kicking ass.
In reality, they did nothing - the bots are back.
As an IT professional who works with cyber security, I don't believe that MOST bot accounts are stolen.
They IP check and force you to enter an access code... so, each stolen account would represent a stolen email.. IP spoofing is feasible in the case of a compromised system being the means for acquiring another's account, but in that case they could just steal their email as well.. and their credit card information... so, the crime you're alleging is huge and would not go unnoticed by either the victim or his/her creditors... and that kind of crime wouldn't target something as meaningless as their ESO account.
Certainly, accounts get stolen from time to time but I sincerely doubt that it is remotely as rampant as the botting/gold spamming. Theft on that scale would make headlines.
More likely, they're using a network of G2A accounts or other middle-retailers to get deals and rebates on a mass of accounts, so they're paying like 30 bucks each account..
Please, if you have evidence or a plausible explanation for how bots are getting free accounts, I would love to hear it...
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
Comments
yeah, but those methods have to be implemented which takes time and generates a lot of bugs which have to be fixed before they can rollout any kind of advanced protection. Yeah, they should've done this before the game went live but they didn't and they have to cope with it now.
So this is a temporary solution and it's the simplest one, not really time efficient or staff efficient, but well...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
Your missing the point I feel this is a stop gap measure put in place to try and relieve some of the issues while they look into a more cost and time effective global response.
What its showing is yes they are aware that there is a problem and they have given the GMs the powers needed to relieve it when encountered and time allowing.
Its a good thing worst possible thing they could do is a knee jerk reaction banning IP addresses willy nilly. I seriously doubt ANY of the botters are using their normal IP address.
I didn't say it was a beta I said it felt like a beta . Try and absorb whats written before making a comment . If it was just me that didn't like the design choice it wouldn't be a big problem but if you look at the elder scrolls forums there are huge numbers of people that don't like it . I know quite a few people who are going to quit the game until such times things like this are fixed . You may like it because it make things easy for you . People like different levels of challenge and you may enjoy a more casual game experience than I do but if I wanted such a thing I would be playing World of Warcraft and not the Elder Scrolls .
For anyone who wants to view this problem for themselves they can see it here on the Angry Joe review at around 23 minutes into the video
Its actually quite a good review and does illustrate what the current state of the game is .
There has been a visible reduction in the level of online gold spam - the guild invites have vanished for me, there are many fewer in zone chat even in the starter zones, and I'm getting far fewer emails. Resource nodes can be found now, suggesting that they've made real progress against the bot harvesters. The world has not ended for the economy.
The dungeon bosses are a design loophole, and this is hardly the first MMO to have such a thing. The reward per hour is better than it is elsewhere, it has no risk at all, and mmo players (both live and bots) farm for cash. This will get fixed and tons of people who like to get goodies with no risk will complain. This is MMO 101.
Honest critics would applaud moves like this and note the improvements in the game. People who are invested in attacking it will ignore improvements and move on to the next complaint.
In these forums "honest" seems to be a symonym for "hates the game just like I do". This is not, remotely, an honest review. It's a hit piece that neglects anything positive, exaggerates problems, and makes no note of progres. It's also done by an extremely vocal opponent of MMO subscription fees.
On a lighter note...
Back when I used to play wow I was farming some elementals for a questionable amount of time and I started being followed by a deer(critter). It was really bizarre because it was literally following me everywhere I went. I started killing it and it would respawn a second later.
I eventually said in /say "I'm not a bot I'm just bored" and the little deer went away.
OK, that get's quoted, heck I'm guilty of it on occasion.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's the beauty of the VR zones. Most mmos I can get to max level on autopilot. In ESO you're going to repeatedly die if you don't actually fight the enemies. Hell, last night chat was filled with complaints from people dying so much. I still think it's pretty easy, but when I'm in a quest area or public dungeon I always see someone rez and then start following me because they're tired of dying. Or someone waiting for someone else to show up at the boss of a public dungeon, world boss, anchor because they can't kill it alone.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
+1 Zenimax and +1 "haters" and "whiners" who made this possible.
-1 fanboys for "never saw bots in this game","GMs are so last season ", "theres no problems ,game is perfect"
PS.and subbing ASAP,might not stay long,but i must support them right now.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
He does say he likes the combat and pvp . I don't agree with the part where he says the game world isn't that impressive . Its one of the nicer mmos I've seen graphically . The part at 23.00 on wards isn't exaggerated I saw it happening with that same spider boss yesterday . I would say he has offered an honest review of how he feels about the game . Because its not as possative the fans of the game such as yourself see it a dishonest . I like the game generally speaking and I prefer the subscription model but it has to be worth it . I don't even mind a few bugs on release in fact I expect them but what I don't expect is design flaws like the type of boss farming that is demonstrated in the video . This should have been spotted by the developers as a potential exploit and there should have been a loot timer put on it .
I have been playing ESO in beta for quite a while. So i am sure i DO understand. Also i saw AJ review and agree with almost every aspect he mentions.
In my book killing bosses in dungeons is a FEATURE every game should have and REWARD tho. Without a quest. Quests are a feature id actually try and remove from gaming alltogether.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I think you probably are in a minority there . If you are one of those people who are repeatedly killing these bosses it sound like you may wish to rethink doing it in future or you may get your account banned . Also if you don't like questing why are you in the Elder Scrolls as its all about questing . Perhaps a sandbox game would be more to your liking ?
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I don't believe that's a real GM.
EDIT: Just saw another screenshot with an in-game GM that was in gold text so maybe this is real after all. Good for them, scourge those godforsaken botters.
----------
Life sucks, buy a helmet.
If that is a GM that's a good step. Not a permanent solution, but it at least shows people Zenimax is doing something, even if it just nibbles at the issue (assuming they have a plan they are working on in the meantime). I don't believe in doing nothing if it doesn't solve the issue 100% on the first try.
Just the goodwill generated by having reports of GMs nuking bots will be immeasurable. Plus the chances for hilarious screen shots if they take the time to embellish a little. GW1 summoned Grenth, the god of the underworld, to perma kill the offender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxvmb8HbA4s
Zenimax could have the bots get dragged into a Dark Anchor or something.
Actually hes probably one of the botters who knows just how to fix it... Notice the its kinda cute statement? In all reality, players like me and you love the fact that the game master gets off their ass and shows a sign of something happening in game, even if its futile.
GMs actively observing character behavior and seeking bots to ban WILL clean up the game.. This is a P2P game.
Bots can likely get an account for roughly $30. So, every ban forces them to pay $30 to continue their operation.
A GM can literally pay their own salary by banning ONE bot an hour.
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
Bots get an account for 0$.
How?
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.
As an IT professional who works with cyber security, I don't believe that MOST bot accounts are stolen.
They IP check and force you to enter an access code... so, each stolen account would represent a stolen email.. IP spoofing is feasible in the case of a compromised system being the means for acquiring another's account, but in that case they could just steal their email as well.. and their credit card information... so, the crime you're alleging is huge and would not go unnoticed by either the victim or his/her creditors... and that kind of crime wouldn't target something as meaningless as their ESO account.
Certainly, accounts get stolen from time to time but I sincerely doubt that it is remotely as rampant as the botting/gold spamming. Theft on that scale would make headlines.
More likely, they're using a network of G2A accounts or other middle-retailers to get deals and rebates on a mass of accounts, so they're paying like 30 bucks each account..
Please, if you have evidence or a plausible explanation for how bots are getting free accounts, I would love to hear it...
I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.