The only thing that gives me hope this game may exist is that Brad has mentioned that they would be happy with 30k concurrent subs when its finished. The market for this game is so far gone it's sad. I picked wow again the other day, someone aggro'd a ton of extra stuff one pull and the entire group just left, even though we respawned without penalty 30 feet away. People are even complaining that it takes too long to level in ESO(Yes, too much stuff to do in an elder scrolls game).
Best of luck, will continue to support the project when I can.
Utinni most games are not World of Warcraft. Eve Online does not have much more than that. Fact of the matter is a smaller MMO can be as profitable as a large one. Look at SWTOR the $300 million behemoth that is now free to play. I think Pantheon would be more successful made with much less and pay to play for many many years. The market for this game is fine... it is catering to people who want to level slow. ESO was catering to Elder Scrolls players.
All help will be appreciated! If you ever want to chat I am also Nirrtix on the Pantheon site!
GW2 makes half again as much as EVE and SWTOR makes half again as much or so than GW2. Smaller games aren't as profitable as larger games. Smaller games with less overhead might be as sustainable as larger games, but they won't be as profitable. TOR isn't less successful now that it dropped the sub requirement, it is more successful financially.
GW2 is not a monthly subscription based game.... Neither is SWTOR. That would be why... You are right smaller games would have less overhead. In the end I think it more depends on the business model. I do not think the intent is to be ultra profitable. SWTOR is not profitable as it cost 300mil to make and went FTP in a year as well. IT has not made that up on FTP I guarantee you.
Maybe I wasn't clear. Both GW2 and SWTOR made a ton more than EVE and as you point out, they don't have subs. EVE brought in about $70M, GW2 about $130, SWTOR about $300M. TOR is a raging success and more so now without the sub. So to say that smaller crowds will bring in more money just doesn't seem true, especially under a linear payment model.
If you're affiliated with the project you in some way you should disclose that. Not doing so is poor form.
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
K-TAM from the get go the crowd funding was to make the game if it was possible... otherwise we were looking for an angel investor to fund the game and use the crowdfunding from the kickstarter, then site pledges to make the demo.... That demo was made to find an investor... it was always that way, it was always made clear.
You have seen the beginning of the demo... Frankly I am impressed as it looks better than some games' Alphas. I Alpha tested Shroud of the Avatar last weekend. The Demo Brad released today was much better graphically and it is pre-Alpha.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
K-TAM from the get go the crowd funding was to make the game if it was possible... otherwise we were looking for an angel investor to fund the game and use the crowdfunding from the kickstarter, then site pledges to make the demo.... That demo was made to find an investor... it was always that way, it was always made clear.
You have seen the beginning of the demo... Frankly I am impressed as it looks better than some games' Alphas. I Alpha tested Shroud of the Avatar last weekend. The Demo Brad released today was much better graphically and it is pre-Alpha.
All the assets are Unity assets. Vu created the Dragon and the Sanctum and arranged the landscape around it, but the look is Unity as far as as the trees and what not. Vu has said as much himself. he didn't have time to create unique assets beyond that. All the Mob Models and creatures are Unity models and not what we can expect from the game at launch.
Looking at what Vu did do it is very impressive. There is nothing to take away from the team who was working on Pantheon. They all did some great work. I hope we get to see more of it in the future if they can make good with Brad.
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
K-TAM from the get go the crowd funding was to make the game if it was possible... otherwise we were looking for an angel investor to fund the game and use the crowdfunding from the kickstarter, then site pledges to make the demo.... That demo was made to find an investor... it was always that way, it was always made clear.
You have seen the beginning of the demo... Frankly I am impressed as it looks better than some games' Alphas. I Alpha tested Shroud of the Avatar last weekend. The Demo Brad released today was much better graphically and it is pre-Alpha.
All the assets are Unity assets. Vu created the Dragon and the Sanctum and arranged the landscape around it, but the look is Unity as far as as the trees and what not. Vu has said as much himself. he didn't have time to create unique assets beyond that. All the Mob Models and creatures are Unity models and not what we can expect from the game at launch.
Looking at what Vu did do it is very impressive. There is nothing to take away from the team who was working on Pantheon. They all did some great work. I hope we get to see more of it in the future if they can make good with Brad.
Beck you make a separate account to separate yourself from you main KTAM account? Again you ignore facts. Brad said some of the assets in it were from unity store. So it looks unity and you assume it all is? Those trees were there when Vu made it. As far as what is unity and what is not I do not know. This is a Pre-Alpha, we are showing off the basics, you just want to criticize even when non is there to be critical of.
Vu did a great job, and the video is great considering it is a rough draft. The graphics in it look better than in Shroud of Avatar's actual Alpha.
I do not care if you do not support Pantheon, but be factual please. There is no need to say things that are not true or you cannot prove.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Believe what you want...
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
No one was making a mmorpg for 800k. Brad did interviews and stuff like the reddit 'ask me anything' where he said they would be forced to pursue additional funding if the crowd funding couldn't cover it all.
I am not sure you could make an MMORPG or much of any game for $800,000. Brad said it would take $10 to $12 mil to make the game. He has always been straight with us. Some of these people ignore these facts. Many of the nay sayers are coming here with their mind made up just to say things that are not true.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
[mod edit] for me this game is what I have been dreaming for: a game that focuses on group play and exploration without holding your hand and better graphics than 15 years ago . I have been following this game since it was first announced. All I can tell you is that Brad seems to genuinely want to make a game for his fans. He does not want a game that is for everyone - this game is for the people that like the spirit of EQ and Vanguard and are looking for a modern-day version of them.
Right now there is a lot of forum turbulence. I am not in the "in crowd" but I watch and listen everyday. It seems to be more noise, whining and negative attention seeking than anything else from a few loud individuals. I am hoping that Brad can rise above all this and continue to make the game he is intending, because If he is allowed too - this will really be one heck of an amazing game.
About the video clip: You are seeing a video clip of a game that is in the very earliest stage of development - way before even alpha. The game is not meant to be about how it looks it is meant to be about how it is played. To quote Brad McQuaid " Pantheon's focus is on adventure, exploration, and combat. .....This is pre-pre-alpha. The UI will change CONSIDERABLY. The end result, the style of the game, you are seeing just the beginning of. But what it will be truly judged on is gameplay. Players don't want eye candy and then find out the game sucks. This happens too often (especially with console games). They want a game that grabs hold of them, that becomes a home, that they find themselves playing year after year. That's what we're going after." Brad released this video not to showcase Pantheon - but to release it to his supporters to show us where are money was spent, and as a person who has spent 420$ so far I can say I am quite happy.
disclaimer (This is not directed at any specific person, but at all people who do not seem to understand game development)
Ok I really wanted to keep myself out of this but there is one piece of information that everyone has completely wrong. Brad did not have to mention a Demo at all at any time, it is part of normal game making, or full on development mode as you tend to call it when trying to call him out.
Back when I was a child and got my start playing games on the PC, I started with things called Shareware(Demo's). Shareware was the demo of a game that was many levels or episodes long. They typically gave you a full episode to play or 2-3 levels to play through and then at the end you got a splash screen to buy the full game to finish the story. Demo's have been part of the development process for pc games since atleast the late 80's, and for consoles since the Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn. The episodes or levels that a demo shows off are chosen to best exemplify the game to get gamers or investors to put their money forward for the full version. When you later play said game you go through an area and go "oh I remember this place from the demo!" which was part of the game all along.
In Closing, Brad and his team made what he is calling a demo, but it is still very much a chunk of the actual game. It will be in the final product, it is just a slice of the game they can show off to people to get interest and more funding. The people who have been complaining about our money not going towards a demo just do not understand game development. What Brad and his team have right now is very much part of a full games development. Do a little research before you all start making outlandish claims from your own lack of knowledge.
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Believe what you want...
Now there's an ironic reply considering our first exchange.
Crowd funding was just a bad idea from the start. I echo the statements that Brad is a great (or at least good) designer, but has no business in a management role on the business side of things (he'd be fine in a lead design role). The best thing that could happen to Pantheon right now is to forget the crowd funding and get a publisher, probably SoE since Smed and Brad do have history together. In addition to funding a publisher would create much need accountability and better marketing/business direction.
I'm not sure why people are still willing to crowd fund this. It's clear there has been at least some mismanagement. No other company would blow through $160k with that size a team in a couple of months as an indie developer. Most startups running a Kickstarter don't expect to be paid for their work through crowd funding and instead bank on the success of the game by scrounging by till they can release their product. Kickstarter funds don't usually go towards paying wages (especially backpaying) but are usually considered going directly to development costs such as software/hardware. From what we know Brad isn't exactly poor either and he's certainly not living paycheck to paycheck like may game developers who seek crowdfunding do.
If they try to put up a Kickstarter they'll have an even tougher time hitting that funding goal with all the negative things that have been happening with Pantheon lately, and they'll wear out the fervent supporters of the project quickly if they keep asking for funding through multiple sources constantly (as we've seen when Pantheon first moved away from the Kickstarter and funding almost dried up entirely after the first month's spike). I do want to see get Pantheon get made and really want a MMO I can play for more than a month or three till I get bored like old school MMOs that used to last me years, but as I see it right now any hopes of this getting made with crowdfunding (even if it's just crowdfunding enough to eventually get a publisher - which I think goes against the purpose of crowdfunding) is very slim and they should just stick to the traditional method of getting an actual publisher and a team through that to help make the game.
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Believe what you want...
Now there's an ironic reply considering our first exchange.
This! Lol, yes, you can throw out as many citations as you want, it's quite obvious that logic and reason flew out the window a couple towns back.
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Believe what you want...
Now there's an ironic reply considering our first exchange.
I said that because you have made up your mind... believe what you want... I know a gazillion people who believe the opposite. Like I told KTAM if he does not want to stand with Pantheon that is fine, but he does not have to spread opinions he cannot prove and call them facts.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
disclaimer (This is not directed at any specific person, but at all people who do not seem to understand game development)
Ok I really wanted to keep myself out of this but there is one piece of information that everyone has completely wrong. Brad did not have to mention a Demo at all at any time, it is part of normal game making, or full on development mode as you tend to call it when trying to call him out.
Back when I was a child and got my start playing games on the PC, I started with things called Shareware(Demo's). Shareware was the demo of a game that was many levels or episodes long. They typically gave you a full episode to play or 2-3 levels to play through and then at the end you got a splash screen to buy the full game to finish the story. Demo's have been part of the development process for pc games since atleast the late 80's, and for consoles since the Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn. The episodes or levels that a demo shows off are chosen to best exemplify the game to get gamers or investors to put their money forward for the full version. When you later play said game you go through an area and go "oh I remember this place from the demo!" which was part of the game all along.
In Closing, Brad and his team made what he is calling a demo, but it is still very much a chunk of the actual game. It will be in the final product, it is just a slice of the game they can show off to people to get interest and more funding. The people who have been complaining about our money not going towards a demo just do not understand game development. What Brad and his team have right now is very much part of a full games development. Do a little research before you all start making outlandish claims from your own lack of knowledge.
As someone who has developed their own games before, I can say that this is wrong. Maybe the term "demo" is confusing you since you are probably thinking of playable demos that are meant more to advertise the game to consumers. Demos are only released when a game is feature complete, especially shareware which typically has the full game built which is then unlocked through a key usually. This is a pre-alpha and the better term would be "prototype". Think of it has a testing ground for systems that may or may not be in the game. This is more a "demo" designed to be pitched to a publisher for a game concept and is only meant to show how of the game concept and some mechanics. People calling it a "tech demo" are also incorrect.
I've developed prototypes in pure console (text only) for simple 3D games in order to test game mechanics. I've even used board games and no programming to test some game concepts in a playable form. For example this is an example of a prototype for another Kickstarter game called Aura Tactics, in which I believe the actual game will look nothing like it, but for the most part the very basics of how the gameplay will work in the game is shown.
Considering they had about 2 months to work on that demo/prototype, with only a single programmer from what I can tell (another issue with Pantheon), what was shown isn't really that bad in fact I'd even say it's pretty decent considering what they were working with. It definitely shows they can produce a MMO with some quality in a long time frame if they get more people working on the game.
I would wager that almost nothing shown, except maybe for some of the terrain or objects will make it into the final game and considering we've already seen many polish passes and revamps on Sunken Sanctum already through the Kickstarter I even doubt we'll see ANY single thing we've seen in this demo/prototype in the final product. One should probably do research of their own before they argue something completely opposite of the truth and claim those people should be the one doing research.
Sociolinguistic debates on the use of "demo" in this discourse aside, Brad marketed this as "impressive". Nothing was impressive about it.
Brad at one point weeks ago said it was done. Yet he kited putting it out for a while saying he need to do x y z p q etc etc etc to it.
More than one dev has stated that said "demo" was cobbled together and not really representative of the work done and put up for the sole purpose of misdirecting others to think that there's more to the progression of the project than there actually is.
There is an ever growing pattern of inconsistencies with what is said and done. So much so, that pretty much the -entire- dev team has left the project(even though Brad's having a meeting tomorrow and some will show up just to see what is to be said, they're done.)
If they no longer have confidence in Brad and his project, some of whom had previously counted Brad as friends, it would seem it is rather steeped in denial to continue to defend him and this project.
disclaimer (This is not directed at any specific person, but at all people who do not seem to understand game development)
Ok I really wanted to keep myself out of this but there is one piece of information that everyone has completely wrong. Brad did not have to mention a Demo at all at any time, it is part of normal game making, or full on development mode as you tend to call it when trying to call him out.
Back when I was a child and got my start playing games on the PC, I started with things called Shareware(Demo's). Shareware was the demo of a game that was many levels or episodes long. They typically gave you a full episode to play or 2-3 levels to play through and then at the end you got a splash screen to buy the full game to finish the story. Demo's have been part of the development process for pc games since atleast the late 80's, and for consoles since the Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn. The episodes or levels that a demo shows off are chosen to best exemplify the game to get gamers or investors to put their money forward for the full version. When you later play said game you go through an area and go "oh I remember this place from the demo!" which was part of the game all along.
In Closing, Brad and his team made what he is calling a demo, but it is still very much a chunk of the actual game. It will be in the final product, it is just a slice of the game they can show off to people to get interest and more funding. The people who have been complaining about our money not going towards a demo just do not understand game development. What Brad and his team have right now is very much part of a full games development. Do a little research before you all start making outlandish claims from your own lack of knowledge.
As someone who has developed their own games before, I can say that this is wrong. Maybe the term "demo" is confusing you since you are probably thinking of playable demos that are meant more to advertise the game to consumers. Demos are only released when a game is feature complete, especially shareware which typically has the full game built which is then unlocked through a key usually. This is a pre-alpha and the better term would be "prototype". Think of it has a testing ground for systems that may or may not be in the game. This is more a "demo" designed to be pitched to a publisher for a game concept and is only meant to show how of the game concept and some mechanics. People calling it a "tech demo" are also incorrect.
I've developed prototypes in pure console (text only) for simple 3D games in order to test game mechanics. I've even used board games and no programming to test some game concepts in a playable form. For example this is an example of a prototype for another Kickstarter game called Aura Tactics, in which I believe the actual game will look nothing like it, but for the most part the very basics of how the gameplay will work in the game is shown.
Considering they had about 2 months to work on that demo/prototype, with only a single programmer from what I can tell (another issue with Pantheon), what was shown isn't really that bad in fact I'd even say it's pretty decent considering what they were working with. It definitely shows they can produce a MMO with some quality in a long time frame if they get more people working on the game.
I would wager that almost nothing shown, except maybe for some of the terrain or objects will make it into the final game and considering we've already seen many polish passes and revamps on Sunken Sanctum already through the Kickstarter I even doubt we'll see ANY single thing we've seen in this demo/prototype in the final product. One should probably do research of their own before they argue something completely opposite of the truth and claim those people should be the one doing research.
AI you are right the best way to describe this is a prototype video.... I grew up in the shareware video days myself. Good times they were. I myself have never made a video game. This prototype is made to show to investors. The whole crowdfunding was made to make this to send to investors, unless we managed to get enough to make the whole game, which was a long shot goal. This prototype was to show off the game mechanics and world. Brad has stated in the post for the prototype video that some elements were from the Unity 3D store. KTAM posted that as a fact (which it is) giving the impression that Brad did not admit that. As you said however, it is a fraction of what the full game will be.
I feel the Sunken Sanctum looked AMAZING before the content other than trees were added. I personally cannot wait to see the rest of the game. This is a real zone for the game, though in the final game it will be different in its own way.
Nirrtix ALPHAs: -Pantheon -Shroud of the Avatar -Camelot Unchained BETAs: -World of Warcraft -City of Heroes -Star Wars Galaxies -Saga of Ryzom -Homeworld -Starcraft II -Warcraft III -Hearthstone -Star Wars The Old Republic -Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Believe what you want...
Now there's an ironic reply considering our first exchange.
I said that because you have made up your mind... believe what you want... I know a gazillion people who believe the opposite. Like I told KTAM if he does not want to stand with Pantheon that is fine, but he does not have to spread opinions he cannot prove and call them facts.
Nirritx, you choose to ignore the facts and you make false claims and call them facts. Such as the fact you claim I told people to get their money back when I did not. Convenient that all my posts got deleted of I would point it out to you. I pointed out that if people decided to go that route, that I hoped they would reconsider pledging again in the future if the project gathers more steam. This was before Brad asked Frenzic to "post the truth" about the money being taken. There are angles and angels to this and your comments over twitch are very telling and all recorded now as well.
It's great to have passion, but you are rabid; borderline stalker. Salim is going to release some documents to K-TAM and to anyone else who asks for it. I hope someone from MMORPG.COM will also reach out to him for the same info. Who knows what we will get.
At this point the community has enough info to make their choice. I am going to be moving on to other things to talk about and support our listeners who are tied of hearing about Pantheon and Brad.
Comments
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Torvoldor.... I am an pledge.... my point is that with the cost of SWTOR they have not paid it off, so to call it a financial success is incorrect, when they have not paid the 300mil cost of the game. If you prefer free to play that is your deal. I know plenty of people that like SWTOR, but I know plenty who want an old-school style game like Pantheon or Shroud of the Avatar.
I am unaware about the financial stats of Guild Wars 2
Eve better be paid off and financially stable that game is almost as old as Everquest 1
IF you think I am a dev no I am not... I have nothing to do with the Development of the game other than my donating.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
K-TAM from the get go the crowd funding was to make the game if it was possible... otherwise we were looking for an angel investor to fund the game and use the crowdfunding from the kickstarter, then site pledges to make the demo.... That demo was made to find an investor... it was always that way, it was always made clear.
You have seen the beginning of the demo... Frankly I am impressed as it looks better than some games' Alphas. I Alpha tested Shroud of the Avatar last weekend. The Demo Brad released today was much better graphically and it is pre-Alpha.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
All the assets are Unity assets. Vu created the Dragon and the Sanctum and arranged the landscape around it, but the look is Unity as far as as the trees and what not. Vu has said as much himself. he didn't have time to create unique assets beyond that. All the Mob Models and creatures are Unity models and not what we can expect from the game at launch.
Looking at what Vu did do it is very impressive. There is nothing to take away from the team who was working on Pantheon. They all did some great work. I hope we get to see more of it in the future if they can make good with Brad.
K-TAM Radio
Although BioWare has not disclosed development costs, industry leaders and financial analysts have estimated it to be between $150 million and $200 million or more, making it, at the time, the most expensive video game ever made.[9][10] The position was later taken over by Grand Theft Auto V, with an estimated cost of $265 million.[11] The game had 1 million subscribers within three days of its launch, making it the world's "fastest-growing MMO ever".[12][13] However, in the following months the game lost a fair share of its subscriptions, but has remained profitable.[14] The game has since adopted the hybrid free-to-play business model with remaining subscription option.[15] It is estimated that the game made $139 million in additional revenues, in addition to the subscription income, in 2013. This makes SWTOR one of the world's top ten earning games
Beck you make a separate account to separate yourself from you main KTAM account? Again you ignore facts. Brad said some of the assets in it were from unity store. So it looks unity and you assume it all is? Those trees were there when Vu made it. As far as what is unity and what is not I do not know. This is a Pre-Alpha, we are showing off the basics, you just want to criticize even when non is there to be critical of.
Vu did a great job, and the video is great considering it is a rough draft. The graphics in it look better than in Shroud of Avatar's actual Alpha.
I do not care if you do not support Pantheon, but be factual please. There is no need to say things that are not true or you cannot prove.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Believe what you want...
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
No one was making a mmorpg for 800k. Brad did interviews and stuff like the reddit 'ask me anything' where he said they would be forced to pursue additional funding if the crowd funding couldn't cover it all.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
What a horrible prototype. Forget the purple, whats with all those green boxes. And the clown standing there just swinging a sword.
The water didn't look bad though, but there was no life to it.
It was a tech demo, not a gameplay demo.
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[mod edit] for me this game is what I have been dreaming for: a game that focuses on group play and exploration without holding your hand and better graphics than 15 years ago
. I have been following this game since it was first announced. All I can tell you is that Brad seems to genuinely want to make a game for his fans. He does not want a game that is for everyone - this game is for the people that like the spirit of EQ and Vanguard and are looking for a modern-day version of them.
Right now there is a lot of forum turbulence. I am not in the "in crowd" but I watch and listen everyday. It seems to be more noise, whining and negative attention seeking than anything else from a few loud individuals. I am hoping that Brad can rise above all this and continue to make the game he is intending, because If he is allowed too - this will really be one heck of an amazing game.
About the video clip: You are seeing a video clip of a game that is in the very earliest stage of development - way before even alpha. The game is not meant to be about how it looks it is meant to be about how it is played. To quote Brad McQuaid " Pantheon's focus is on adventure, exploration, and combat. .....This is pre-pre-alpha. The UI will change CONSIDERABLY. The end result, the style of the game, you are seeing just the beginning of. But what it will be truly judged on is gameplay. Players don't want eye candy and then find out the game sucks. This happens too often (especially with console games). They want a game that grabs hold of them, that becomes a home, that they find themselves playing year after year. That's what we're going after." Brad released this video not to showcase Pantheon - but to release it to his supporters to show us where are money was spent, and as a person who has spent 420$ so far I can say I am quite happy.
disclaimer (This is not directed at any specific person, but at all people who do not seem to understand game development)
Ok I really wanted to keep myself out of this but there is one piece of information that everyone has completely wrong. Brad did not have to mention a Demo at all at any time, it is part of normal game making, or full on development mode as you tend to call it when trying to call him out.
Back when I was a child and got my start playing games on the PC, I started with things called Shareware(Demo's). Shareware was the demo of a game that was many levels or episodes long. They typically gave you a full episode to play or 2-3 levels to play through and then at the end you got a splash screen to buy the full game to finish the story. Demo's have been part of the development process for pc games since atleast the late 80's, and for consoles since the Playstation 1 and Sega Saturn. The episodes or levels that a demo shows off are chosen to best exemplify the game to get gamers or investors to put their money forward for the full version. When you later play said game you go through an area and go "oh I remember this place from the demo!" which was part of the game all along.
In Closing, Brad and his team made what he is calling a demo, but it is still very much a chunk of the actual game. It will be in the final product, it is just a slice of the game they can show off to people to get interest and more funding. The people who have been complaining about our money not going towards a demo just do not understand game development. What Brad and his team have right now is very much part of a full games development. Do a little research before you all start making outlandish claims from your own lack of knowledge.
Now there's an ironic reply considering our first exchange.
Crowd funding was just a bad idea from the start. I echo the statements that Brad is a great (or at least good) designer, but has no business in a management role on the business side of things (he'd be fine in a lead design role). The best thing that could happen to Pantheon right now is to forget the crowd funding and get a publisher, probably SoE since Smed and Brad do have history together. In addition to funding a publisher would create much need accountability and better marketing/business direction.
I'm not sure why people are still willing to crowd fund this. It's clear there has been at least some mismanagement. No other company would blow through $160k with that size a team in a couple of months as an indie developer. Most startups running a Kickstarter don't expect to be paid for their work through crowd funding and instead bank on the success of the game by scrounging by till they can release their product. Kickstarter funds don't usually go towards paying wages (especially backpaying) but are usually considered going directly to development costs such as software/hardware. From what we know Brad isn't exactly poor either and he's certainly not living paycheck to paycheck like may game developers who seek crowdfunding do.
If they try to put up a Kickstarter they'll have an even tougher time hitting that funding goal with all the negative things that have been happening with Pantheon lately, and they'll wear out the fervent supporters of the project quickly if they keep asking for funding through multiple sources constantly (as we've seen when Pantheon first moved away from the Kickstarter and funding almost dried up entirely after the first month's spike). I do want to see get Pantheon get made and really want a MMO I can play for more than a month or three till I get bored like old school MMOs that used to last me years, but as I see it right now any hopes of this getting made with crowdfunding (even if it's just crowdfunding enough to eventually get a publisher - which I think goes against the purpose of crowdfunding) is very slim and they should just stick to the traditional method of getting an actual publisher and a team through that to help make the game.
This! Lol, yes, you can throw out as many citations as you want, it's quite obvious that logic and reason flew out the window a couple towns back.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I said that because you have made up your mind... believe what you want... I know a gazillion people who believe the opposite. Like I told KTAM if he does not want to stand with Pantheon that is fine, but he does not have to spread opinions he cannot prove and call them facts.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
As someone who has developed their own games before, I can say that this is wrong. Maybe the term "demo" is confusing you since you are probably thinking of playable demos that are meant more to advertise the game to consumers. Demos are only released when a game is feature complete, especially shareware which typically has the full game built which is then unlocked through a key usually. This is a pre-alpha and the better term would be "prototype". Think of it has a testing ground for systems that may or may not be in the game. This is more a "demo" designed to be pitched to a publisher for a game concept and is only meant to show how of the game concept and some mechanics. People calling it a "tech demo" are also incorrect.
I've developed prototypes in pure console (text only) for simple 3D games in order to test game mechanics. I've even used board games and no programming to test some game concepts in a playable form. For example this is an example of a prototype for another Kickstarter game called Aura Tactics, in which I believe the actual game will look nothing like it, but for the most part the very basics of how the gameplay will work in the game is shown.
Considering they had about 2 months to work on that demo/prototype, with only a single programmer from what I can tell (another issue with Pantheon), what was shown isn't really that bad in fact I'd even say it's pretty decent considering what they were working with. It definitely shows they can produce a MMO with some quality in a long time frame if they get more people working on the game.
I would wager that almost nothing shown, except maybe for some of the terrain or objects will make it into the final game and considering we've already seen many polish passes and revamps on Sunken Sanctum already through the Kickstarter I even doubt we'll see ANY single thing we've seen in this demo/prototype in the final product. One should probably do research of their own before they argue something completely opposite of the truth and claim those people should be the one doing research.
Sociolinguistic debates on the use of "demo" in this discourse aside, Brad marketed this as "impressive". Nothing was impressive about it.
Brad at one point weeks ago said it was done. Yet he kited putting it out for a while saying he need to do x y z p q etc etc etc to it.
More than one dev has stated that said "demo" was cobbled together and not really representative of the work done and put up for the sole purpose of misdirecting others to think that there's more to the progression of the project than there actually is.
There is an ever growing pattern of inconsistencies with what is said and done. So much so, that pretty much the -entire- dev team has left the project(even though Brad's having a meeting tomorrow and some will show up just to see what is to be said, they're done.)
If they no longer have confidence in Brad and his project, some of whom had previously counted Brad as friends, it would seem it is rather steeped in denial to continue to defend him and this project.
AI you are right the best way to describe this is a prototype video.... I grew up in the shareware video days myself. Good times they were. I myself have never made a video game. This prototype is made to show to investors. The whole crowdfunding was made to make this to send to investors, unless we managed to get enough to make the whole game, which was a long shot goal. This prototype was to show off the game mechanics and world. Brad has stated in the post for the prototype video that some elements were from the Unity 3D store. KTAM posted that as a fact (which it is) giving the impression that Brad did not admit that. As you said however, it is a fraction of what the full game will be.
I feel the Sunken Sanctum looked AMAZING before the content other than trees were added. I personally cannot wait to see the rest of the game. This is a real zone for the game, though in the final game it will be different in its own way.
Nirrtix
ALPHAs:
-Pantheon
-Shroud of the Avatar
-Camelot Unchained
BETAs:
-World of Warcraft
-City of Heroes
-Star Wars Galaxies
-Saga of Ryzom
-Homeworld
-Starcraft II
-Warcraft III
-Hearthstone
-Star Wars The Old Republic
-Vanguard Saga of Heroes
Nirritx, you choose to ignore the facts and you make false claims and call them facts. Such as the fact you claim I told people to get their money back when I did not. Convenient that all my posts got deleted of I would point it out to you. I pointed out that if people decided to go that route, that I hoped they would reconsider pledging again in the future if the project gathers more steam. This was before Brad asked Frenzic to "post the truth" about the money being taken. There are angles and angels to this and your comments over twitch are very telling and all recorded now as well.
It's great to have passion, but you are rabid; borderline stalker. Salim is going to release some documents to K-TAM and to anyone else who asks for it. I hope someone from MMORPG.COM will also reach out to him for the same info. Who knows what we will get.
At this point the community has enough info to make their choice. I am going to be moving on to other things to talk about and support our listeners who are tied of hearing about Pantheon and Brad.
K-TAM Radio