I don't play PvP often. I am the guy everyone else ganks repeatedly, and my K/D ratio is something like 2:45.
I always thought it was funny that nearly without exception, when hearing other people talk in a PvP game, everyone would brag about having a K/D ratio greater than 1:1.
A lot of PvP'ers live at Lake Woebegone, where all the kids are above average.
I think it goes back to - everyone loves being the ganker, no one likes to get ganked.
Aside from the mostly pure FPS games, which have very little in the way of advancement or "level up", you won't see much that's successful. If you can keep the playing field even, then you get skill-based competition. If you have gear/levels/advantage, then you get the few who get in early and stay and get to the top of the power ladder, and a high barrier to entry for someone coming into the game new afterwards who has to suffer through being the "gankee" for a long time.
A lot of people love to talk about how Eve lets someone with a lot of skill be successful early on... I guess that depends on what you define as success - you can run around and be a nuisance in a frigate on day one I suppose, but there's only so much skill to be had when the entire metagame is just in what mods you can slot on your frame, and that's all got to do with time and money. And no one is going to be rolling around in a capital on day one.
So yeah, I think there are a lot of Open World PvP games - PS2 comes to mind primarily. Most are map-based because gankers -- I mean "players" -- love maps they can memorize so they can find all the newbie fodder in order to plump their K/D ratio.
My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from? It's completely delusional, its like assuming all asians are horrible drivers. And where does the assumption that no one likes to die comes from? Its understandable to some point, but assuming people will rip off their heads for it is ridiculous. I, and a lot of PvP enthusiasts I know all say the same thing: Their favorite moments come from the fights they were severely outnumbered. Why? Because PvPers in reality love the challenge; AI scripts cannot offer the same challenge real players do, and never will. That is the reason players want to fight players, the environment offers more difficulty, challenge and varying gameplay experiences, it has nothing to do with enjoyement of fighting non challenging encounters.
Originally posted by Neherun My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from?
I guess it is the same place where stereotype that PVPers want challenge come from. :-P
PVPers only want one thing - to kill other players and iff the game mechanics allow it, they will be killing random targets on sight - weak or strong. No more, no less.
My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from?
I guess it is the same place where stereotype that PVPers want challenge come from. :-P
PVPers only want one thing - to kill other players and iff the game mechanics allow it, they will be killing random targets on sight - weak or strong. No more, no less.
It isn't more complicated than that.
The problem with most generalizations about groups of people is things are more complicated than that.
My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from?
I guess it is the same place where stereotype that PVPers want challenge come from. :-P
PVPers only want one thing - to kill other players and iff the game mechanics allow it, they will be killing random targets on sight - weak or strong. No more, no less.
It isn't more complicated than that.
Tell that to "Anti-PKs", you know, those holy players who only hunt down "reds" i.e. criminals in MMORPGs? Not every player kills on sight, that's why we have terms for PvPers, all the way from random PKs to anti-pks.
It's funny how players say they want community but the last thing they want in the world is to actually interact with real players in game.
Every gamer is a PVPer. The fact that some choose to stand there like a target dummy unless they get their way doesn't make that statement untrue.
You entered a game in which there is combat. You're killing NPCs, rabbits, yaks, you name it, to acquire things or achieve goals. Swap said mobs for players... what's different? The players are unpredictable and not always killable.
So in a nutshell, players don't like PVP because they don't like unpredictability or the possibility of failure. Sounds like they should be playing a single player game if they prefer not to play with actual players.
this makes no sense.
All gamers are PvPers?
Really? thats some rally shaky logic there. .
I postulate that all gamers are Pve gamers.
One has to use the game's enviroment to do the killing, this includes the entire game.
Skills, weapons, even player controlled avatars are products of the games enviroment and ruleset, therefore PvE.
so by this shaky logic I rebuff your premise that all gamers are PvPers. . .
Originally posted by Neherun Tell that to "Anti-PKs", you know, those holy players who only hunt down "reds" i.e. criminals in MMORPGs? Not every player kills on sight, that's why we have terms for PvPers, all the way from random PKs to anti-pks.
Random in terms of power - weak or strong.
Difficulty or challenge is definitely not a criterion nor motivation for PVP. Killing lower skilled players gets old as fast as being killed over and over.
Is everyone forgetting there was ( I don't know if there still is) huge open world PvP in WoW? Warcraft and DAOC were both hugely popular and financially successful mmo's. Hillsbrad back in the day was pvp 24/7 for over a year. What we should be asking is if anyone can actually make a true open world game for 1, and for 2 can they make a good open world pvp game. All you need to do is remove battlegrounds, remove this need to focus in one area and make open real world rewards. Bring back open world titles kdr's like eq2 Kunark pvp. Remove any type of pvp modifier that negates damage or provides some reduction.Make Pvp armor rewards that is almost on par with the best Pve armor. people love to get loot, the answer isn't removing loot or Pve from the equation it's combining them together. Ganking has always been part of pvp it's the best part nothing better than questing with a friend to get jumped and turn the tide on them. No one designated Hillsbrad as a pvp zone back in the day or Astranar ( I Believe it was called). People chose that for themselves, don't make these dumb real world spots where everyone goes and it's a zerg. Real world pvp is spontaneous, you get ganked by two call in a friend run back to the spot..battle ensues they call more, which prompts you to call more and next thing you know you have a full fledged war out in some random zone with a jungle. People who do not like to be jumped or be in actual battle..which in my opinion is not when you are ready for it.. do not have to play. There is nothing better than that edge when you are out alone or trying to kill a rare mob with the threat of people nearby to kill you while attempting it. Yes I am prone to rambling but I hope you see the point make the world giant bg with rewards in pvp. Make a huge tier cap where it takes a year or more to attain the height of pvp rewards, then make new tiers, keep people engaged with valuable spots that are located in some type of xroads between factions (or possible more than 2 or 3 factions try 8 , hell try 9).
A lot of people love to talk about how Eve lets someone with a lot of skill be successful early on... I guess that depends on what you define as success - you can run around and be a nuisance in a frigate on day one I suppose, but there's only so much skill to be had when the entire metagame is just in what mods you can slot on your frame, and that's all got to do with time and money. And no one is going to be rolling around in a capital on day one.
I played EVE for 4 years, never owned or flown a capital ship. Got into battleships after 1.5 year of play and that was because I didn't have anything else to train. I also made a trial account toon and made about 1B ISK within 2 days.
I think you are missing the point there...
Whatever you might do or achieve in one day does not speak about the experiences of your average player. Yes, you can do many things with a low skill point character but not really.
No, you don't have a point. You just wanted to flourish your e-peen.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This is repeated constantly in every discussion about ow pvp, so i want to make a specific thread to discuss that question.
Is really true that there isn't enough fans of ow pvp in the world to sustain and give profit to a big budget MMO?
is there any evidence to that statement?
Open World pvp isnt what kills "pvp games". Its the FFA full loot aspect that seems like a death sentence to many pvp oriented games. As soon as some games announce free for all full loot their hype meter goes from decent to bleh. Only niche players follow the games then.
Darkfall,Mortal Online are just two recent games with full loot. Its not so much about the loot system either i dont think. i think it has more to do with players mindset now days, They are so used to gear being important grindy and a trophy of their progression that the thought in their head of "dying and losing everything" hurts any game with full loot as an option even when games with full loot have less importance on gear.
There are plenty of pvpers to support an open world pvp game. The problem is the pvp rule set games decide to use. Thats what causes game to either succeed or be dead on arrival.
Is everyone forgetting there was ( I don't know if there still is) huge open world PvP in WoW? Warcraft and DAOC were both hugely popular and financially successful mmo's. Hillsbrad back in the day was pvp 24/7 for over a year. What we should be asking is if anyone can actually make a true open world game for 1, and for 2 can they make a good open world pvp game. All you need to do is remove battlegrounds, remove this need to focus in one area and make open real world rewards. Bring back open world titles kdr's like eq2 Kunark pvp. Remove any type of pvp modifier that negates damage or provides some reduction.Make Pvp armor rewards that is almost on par with the best Pve armor. people love to get loot, the answer isn't removing loot or Pve from the equation it's combining them together. Ganking has always been part of pvp it's the best part nothing better than questing with a friend to get jumped and turn the tide on them. No one designated Hillsbrad as a pvp zone back in the day or Astranar ( I Believe it was called). People chose that for themselves, don't make these dumb real world spots where everyone goes and it's a zerg. Real world pvp is spontaneous, you get ganked by two call in a friend run back to the spot..battle ensues they call more, which prompts you to call more and next thing you know you have a full fledged war out in some random zone with a jungle. People who do not like to be jumped or be in actual battle..which in my opinion is not when you are ready for it.. do not have to play. There is nothing better than that edge when you are out alone or trying to kill a rare mob with the threat of people nearby to kill you while attempting it. Yes I am prone to rambling but I hope you see the point make the world giant bg with rewards in pvp. Make a huge tier cap where it takes a year or more to attain the height of pvp rewards, then make new tiers, keep people engaged with valuable spots that are located in some type of xroads between factions (or possible more than 2 or 3 factions try 8 , hell try 9).
Can't you use paragraphs, Anyway again i'll mention Age Of Wushu.
Open world pvp mmo with player bounty system and 15 million playing now.
There would be enough, but the game would have to be amazing to bring them in.
The fact is, this "hardcore" mode is fundamentally flawed. Hardcore fans say it is more skilled, but it's often the case that these players just take advantage of situations whereby the skill involved to kill an enemy is minimal.
Some simple examples are to:
Wait in a group and gank a single person.
Wait until someone is on half or 1/3 health and then gank them
Wait at a portal or loading point where you can launch an attack and take them down before their screen has loaded
Go to an area where players are at a much lower level than you
The risk involved in dying makes people turn to these opportunities and they become a more regular occurrence than similar levelled players battling it out 1v1 or fair groups battling together.
The end result is that most fights represent no challenge (no fun) or, if you're the person on the receiving end, a fight where you have 0 chance of winning - again, no fun.
There are, however, people who do not value a challenge. Some people LIKE to play games on easy modes and gain satisfaction from having a high success rate. These people don't usually have many friends.
The other factor to consider is time. Hardcore games are really only good for people with lots of time, because the more time you spend in game the better you will be (both skill and gear/money) - which gives you a great advantage. But also when you do lose everything on you, you have plenty of time to make it back. Someone who works for a living doesn't have the time to build up a stash of spare equipment and will almost always be at a disadvantage to someone who is a student or bum for a living. When a worker spends his spare time and loses everything, he is always going to question whether it was worth his time.
I am sure that there is some balance that can be made, but there probably isn't enough people of the right type to really make a fully hardcore game be massively profitable. That game would have to be exceptional for it to work.
No I can't. Can you indent your first sentence? Do you get satisfaction from asking such an irrelevant observation to what I said? I want to inform you that you don't capitalize "Anyways" after a comma, and "i'll" is I'll. See what I did there? Next time you want to assault grammar structure on someone's post please don't pretend that your perfect or that we all need to post MLA format to be understood.
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Farstryder
Is everyone forgetting there was ( I don't know if there still is) huge open world PvP in WoW? Warcraft and DAOC were both hugely popular and financially successful mmo's. Hillsbrad back in the day was pvp 24/7 for over a year. What we should be asking is if anyone can actually make a true open world game for 1, and for 2 can they make a good open world pvp game. All you need to do is remove battlegrounds, remove this need to focus in one area and make open real world rewards. Bring back open world titles kdr's like eq2 Kunark pvp. Remove any type of pvp modifier that negates damage or provides some reduction.Make Pvp armor rewards that is almost on par with the best Pve armor. people love to get loot, the answer isn't removing loot or Pve from the equation it's combining them together. Ganking has always been part of pvp it's the best part nothing better than questing with a friend to get jumped and turn the tide on them. No one designated Hillsbrad as a pvp zone back in the day or Astranar ( I Believe it was called). People chose that for themselves, don't make these dumb real world spots where everyone goes and it's a zerg. Real world pvp is spontaneous, you get ganked by two call in a friend run back to the spot..battle ensues they call more, which prompts you to call more and next thing you know you have a full fledged war out in some random zone with a jungle. People who do not like to be jumped or be in actual battle..which in my opinion is not when you are ready for it.. do not have to play. There is nothing better than that edge when you are out alone or trying to kill a rare mob with the threat of people nearby to kill you while attempting it. Yes I am prone to rambling but I hope you see the point make the world giant bg with rewards in pvp. Make a huge tier cap where it takes a year or more to attain the height of pvp rewards, then make new tiers, keep people engaged with valuable spots that are located in some type of xroads between factions (or possible more than 2 or 3 factions try 8 , hell try 9).
Can't you use paragraphs, Anyway again i'll mention Age Of Wushu.
Open world pvp mmo with player bounty system and 15 million playing now.
It is not an insult . People ask because it is difficult to read a wall of text and so they ask if you could use paragraphs. I read two sentences then gave up on your post. If you want people to read it please use paragraphs.
Do you really want others to read your post or just let it not get the attention it deserves because you refuse to use paragraphs? It is not an assault on your English or grammar skills just asking you to extend some courtesy to your readers.
In my opinion, and I assume I'm going to get flamed here, OW PvP games only work where progression is more horizontal in nature than vertical. If a new player out of the box is unable to compete with the veteran players due to the progression barrier.
FPS games such as the Battlefield franchise allow you to do this as a new players get access to basic weapons that are close to what veteran players are using, granted they do not have the unlocked gadgets for their class or items to improve the weapon characteristics but they are 85-90% of a veteran and skill not gear is the overiding factor. Progressin is vertical by allowing you to unlock new weapons, dog tags, etc.
If MMOs could make there progression more like this in OW PvP games, less about stats and more about skills so everyone is on a more even playing field more probably people would take part in OW PvP and probably the PvP side of PvE MMOs.
EvE has shown us that one can start small and make it big and still keep the freedom but how many companies are willing to take these steps to make a game and maintain the FFA PvP without failing. Most want to see returns in a shorter time and big companies investing in triple A MMORPGs more so.
That is why companies put zones where there is a tacit understanding that you will get PvP if you enter it. This is tacit approval or consent when you deign to enter the zone. This type of structure works more or less unless there are bottlenecks where they wait for new players to enter and blast them on entry which leads to people quitting like in AION at one time.
See for instance I am getting Archage and I normally only participate in PvP in BGs in WoW and Rift so I am actually trying Archage because it allows me to choose when I want to PvP.
Pvp is only in mmo's to grab some extra money from that base. Any game with a focus mainly on pvp falls into a niche game which doesn't make alot of money. The PVP crowd refuses to believe this and always seems to have the loudest voice on game boards. To me true PVP belongs only in shooters. Its the best type of PVP. And the only PVP i like. I find mmo PVP very boring and with no real skill needed just the best gear. I never will understand the mmo pvper. You have this game world to explore and all you want to do is kill another player. When i pvp its only in shooters. mmo's are for playing in another world and exploring it with others. This is my view on the subject and mine alone.
Obviously not. Open world PvP games have been booming in general, just look at DayZ and its spinoffs like Rust, as well as all the upcoming stuff. Those are not strictly MMO's, but they're very similar in concept.
As far as true MMO's go, there have been several big ones as well, like EvE and tons of the older games. When looking at the world, I think most of the big and successful MMO's out in Asia (excluding Japan) have some manner of open world PvP, often in a more hardcore way than here.
Extreme points of view on both sides of the PvE - PvP spectrum piss me off. The PvE players who label all pvpers as griefers and act like PvP murdered their babies while demanding it to be purely and completely optional. As well as the PvP extremists who call anyone who enjoys PvE a carebear and demand an empty world with only hardcore ffa action.
There's room for both types of gameplay. But more than anything else we need games that succeed in combining those playstyles effectively, as PvP is a great source of player interaction while PvE allows the devs to tell the story of the world.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
EvE has shown us that one can start small and make it big and still keep the freedom but how many companies are willing to take these steps to make a game and maintain the FFA PvP without failing. Most want to see returns in a shorter time and big companies investing in triple A MMORPGs more so.
That is why companies put zones where there is a tacit understanding that you will get PvP if you enter it. This is tacit approval or consent when you deign to enter the zone. This type of structure works more or less unless there are bottlenecks where they wait for new players to enter and blast them on entry which leads to people quitting like in AION at one time.
See for instance I am getting Archage and I normally only participate in PvP in BGs in WoW and Rift so I am actually trying Archage because it allows me to choose when I want to PvP.
Eve was self financed with a board game. That's the reason they could take the time they took to build the game they wanted to build. If Eve had investors or if CCP was a publicly held company, they would have collapsed long before they managed to pull Eve out of the hole it started in.
Every other developer who isn't self funded or Kickstarted isn't going to have that kind of time to get a game going.
**
CCP is not a publicly held company. Eve is the game, not the company.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by stayBlind There is a reason I do not play EVE. I hate spawning in as a new player and immediately being killed, because OWPVP means that this will happen.
This is completely false and so far from truth it hurts me how ignorant people can be.
If one can bother to educate how game works than there is about 0,0001 chance to get killed out of the blue as a new player.
In proper zones everything (which goes especially for a new player without real wealth) can be done with practicaly 0 risk.
If there is a problem in EvE than that's the ammount of knoledge it requires to play properly. Meaning people who cba to read will have a hard time oposed to people who don't mind getting educated.
Originally posted by stayBlind There is a reason I do not play EVE. I hate spawning in as a new player and immediately being killed, because OWPVP means that this will happen.
This is completely false and so far from truth it hurts me how ignorant people can be.
And thats the problem with hardlining one viewpoint and never even looking at the other side of the fence. It means if you want to speak about the issue you're doing so with a lack of understanding.
EVE can be played as a pure PVE game. You lose a lot of what makes it great and successful but i've never lost any of my PVE mission running ships to PVP. Not even one.
Even in Mortal Online people play that and avoid PVP. You can certainly avoid it as a new player as long as you like.
I would wager Darkfall has a similar new player experience. I'd be very surprised if I logged into Darkfall and was getting camped by players.
That crap just hasn't happened to me in an MMO since the 90s.
Originally posted by stayBlind There is a reason I do not play EVE. I hate spawning in as a new player and immediately being killed, because OWPVP means that this will happen.
This is completely false and so far from truth it hurts me how ignorant people can be.
However, this was only really achieved when CCP made it a bannable offense to attack newbie players. In the early days Concord was easy to fool and some players would rampage through newbie zones massacring everyone. CCP tried to fix this through game mechanics but ultimately threw in the towel and just pulled out he banhammer to prevent this type of behaviour.
Another little talked about aspect is just like the players the majority of developers were brought in to build WoW like games. The pedigree is not there to build other types of MMORPGs.
The fact remains that there are not a lot of other AAA games that aren't themepark questhubs. IMO the reasons...
1. Imitation of a WoW. Little to none AAA development in any other type of MMORPG. 2. Culture of themepark in developers. Themepark questhubs is what most developers know after 10 years. 3. This genre is very dogmatic and rarely anyone likes to break conventional wisdom or take risk. Conventional wisdom was that everyone wanted WoW like games because WoW was 16 more popular than other MMORPGs. 4. Cost of entry and quality. Combined those with cost entry to make MMORPGS and extreme niche of indie MMORPGS you have the current situation.
Originally posted by Quirhid Whatever you might do or achieve in one day does not speak about the experiences of your average player. Yes, you can do many things with a low skill point character but not really.No, you don't have a point. You just wanted to flourish your e-peen.
I was never talking about an experience of average player, I was demonstrating game mechanics and principles:
1) There is absolutely no need to fly large and/or expensive ships. 2) The game rewards you for your wit and knowledge, not so much for your labor.
The only real limiting factor in EVE is yourself. So yeah, YOU can't really do stuff but the game is not to be blamed.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
Originally posted by Quirhid Whatever you might do or achieve in one day does not speak about the experiences of your average player. Yes, you can do many things with a low skill point character but not really.
No, you don't have a point. You just wanted to flourish your e-peen.
I was never talking about an experience of average player, I was demonstrating game mechanics and principles:
1) There is absolutely no need to fly large and/or expensive ships. 2) The game rewards you for your wit and knowledge, not so much for your labor.
The only real limiting factor in EVE is yourself. So yeah, YOU can't really do stuff but the game is not to be blamed.
Yes there is. If a hostile entity shows up in a fleet of slowcats (Archon-class carriers for those who haven't played Eve), a fleet of Rifters (one of the earliest frigates you can fly) is not going to cut it.
This is true in almost any game, not just Eve
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
My question is; Where does the stereotype that every PvP'er is a "griefer" or "ganker" come from? It's completely delusional, its like assuming all asians are horrible drivers. And where does the assumption that no one likes to die comes from? Its understandable to some point, but assuming people will rip off their heads for it is ridiculous. I, and a lot of PvP enthusiasts I know all say the same thing: Their favorite moments come from the fights they were severely outnumbered. Why? Because PvPers in reality love the challenge; AI scripts cannot offer the same challenge real players do, and never will. That is the reason players want to fight players, the environment offers more difficulty, challenge and varying gameplay experiences, it has nothing to do with enjoyement of fighting non challenging encounters.
PVPers only want one thing - to kill other players and iff the game mechanics allow it, they will be killing random targets on sight - weak or strong. No more, no less.
It isn't more complicated than that.
The problem with most generalizations about groups of people is things are more complicated than that.
Tell that to "Anti-PKs", you know, those holy players who only hunt down "reds" i.e. criminals in MMORPGs? Not every player kills on sight, that's why we have terms for PvPers, all the way from random PKs to anti-pks.
this makes no sense.
All gamers are PvPers?
Really? thats some rally shaky logic there. .
I postulate that all gamers are Pve gamers.
One has to use the game's enviroment to do the killing, this includes the entire game.
Skills, weapons, even player controlled avatars are products of the games enviroment and ruleset, therefore PvE.
so by this shaky logic I rebuff your premise that all gamers are PvPers. . .
Random in terms of power - weak or strong.
Difficulty or challenge is definitely not a criterion nor motivation for PVP. Killing lower skilled players gets old as fast as being killed over and over.
Is everyone forgetting there was ( I don't know if there still is) huge open world PvP in WoW? Warcraft and DAOC were both hugely popular and financially successful mmo's. Hillsbrad back in the day was pvp 24/7 for over a year. What we should be asking is if anyone can actually make a true open world game for 1, and for 2 can they make a good open world pvp game. All you need to do is remove battlegrounds, remove this need to focus in one area and make open real world rewards. Bring back open world titles kdr's like eq2 Kunark pvp. Remove any type of pvp modifier that negates damage or provides some reduction.Make Pvp armor rewards that is almost on par with the best Pve armor. people love to get loot, the answer isn't removing loot or Pve from the equation it's combining them together. Ganking has always been part of pvp it's the best part nothing better than questing with a friend to get jumped and turn the tide on them. No one designated Hillsbrad as a pvp zone back in the day or Astranar ( I Believe it was called). People chose that for themselves, don't make these dumb real world spots where everyone goes and it's a zerg. Real world pvp is spontaneous, you get ganked by two call in a friend run back to the spot..battle ensues they call more, which prompts you to call more and next thing you know you have a full fledged war out in some random zone with a jungle. People who do not like to be jumped or be in actual battle..which in my opinion is not when you are ready for it.. do not have to play. There is nothing better than that edge when you are out alone or trying to kill a rare mob with the threat of people nearby to kill you while attempting it. Yes I am prone to rambling but I hope you see the point make the world giant bg with rewards in pvp. Make a huge tier cap where it takes a year or more to attain the height of pvp rewards, then make new tiers, keep people engaged with valuable spots that are located in some type of xroads between factions (or possible more than 2 or 3 factions try 8 , hell try 9).
Farstryder,
Whatever you might do or achieve in one day does not speak about the experiences of your average player. Yes, you can do many things with a low skill point character but not really.
No, you don't have a point. You just wanted to flourish your e-peen.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Open World pvp isnt what kills "pvp games". Its the FFA full loot aspect that seems like a death sentence to many pvp oriented games. As soon as some games announce free for all full loot their hype meter goes from decent to bleh. Only niche players follow the games then.
Darkfall,Mortal Online are just two recent games with full loot. Its not so much about the loot system either i dont think. i think it has more to do with players mindset now days, They are so used to gear being important grindy and a trophy of their progression that the thought in their head of "dying and losing everything" hurts any game with full loot as an option even when games with full loot have less importance on gear.
There are plenty of pvpers to support an open world pvp game. The problem is the pvp rule set games decide to use. Thats what causes game to either succeed or be dead on arrival.
Can't you use paragraphs, Anyway again i'll mention Age Of Wushu.
Open world pvp mmo with player bounty system and 15 million playing now.
There would be enough, but the game would have to be amazing to bring them in.
The fact is, this "hardcore" mode is fundamentally flawed. Hardcore fans say it is more skilled, but it's often the case that these players just take advantage of situations whereby the skill involved to kill an enemy is minimal.
Some simple examples are to:
No I can't. Can you indent your first sentence? Do you get satisfaction from asking such an irrelevant observation to what I said? I want to inform you that you don't capitalize "Anyways" after a comma, and "i'll" is I'll. See what I did there? Next time you want to assault grammar structure on someone's post please don't pretend that your perfect or that we all need to post MLA format to be understood.
Farstryder,
It is not an insult . People ask because it is difficult to read a wall of text and so they ask if you could use paragraphs. I read two sentences then gave up on your post. If you want people to read it please use paragraphs.
Do you really want others to read your post or just let it not get the attention it deserves because you refuse to use paragraphs? It is not an assault on your English or grammar skills just asking you to extend some courtesy to your readers.
In my opinion, and I assume I'm going to get flamed here, OW PvP games only work where progression is more horizontal in nature than vertical. If a new player out of the box is unable to compete with the veteran players due to the progression barrier.
FPS games such as the Battlefield franchise allow you to do this as a new players get access to basic weapons that are close to what veteran players are using, granted they do not have the unlocked gadgets for their class or items to improve the weapon characteristics but they are 85-90% of a veteran and skill not gear is the overiding factor. Progressin is vertical by allowing you to unlock new weapons, dog tags, etc.
If MMOs could make there progression more like this in OW PvP games, less about stats and more about skills so everyone is on a more even playing field more probably people would take part in OW PvP and probably the PvP side of PvE MMOs.
EvE has shown us that one can start small and make it big and still keep the freedom but how many companies are willing to take these steps to make a game and maintain the FFA PvP without failing. Most want to see returns in a shorter time and big companies investing in triple A MMORPGs more so.
That is why companies put zones where there is a tacit understanding that you will get PvP if you enter it. This is tacit approval or consent when you deign to enter the zone. This type of structure works more or less unless there are bottlenecks where they wait for new players to enter and blast them on entry which leads to people quitting like in AION at one time.
See for instance I am getting Archage and I normally only participate in PvP in BGs in WoW and Rift so I am actually trying Archage because it allows me to choose when I want to PvP.
Obviously not. Open world PvP games have been booming in general, just look at DayZ and its spinoffs like Rust, as well as all the upcoming stuff. Those are not strictly MMO's, but they're very similar in concept.
As far as true MMO's go, there have been several big ones as well, like EvE and tons of the older games. When looking at the world, I think most of the big and successful MMO's out in Asia (excluding Japan) have some manner of open world PvP, often in a more hardcore way than here.
Extreme points of view on both sides of the PvE - PvP spectrum piss me off. The PvE players who label all pvpers as griefers and act like PvP murdered their babies while demanding it to be purely and completely optional. As well as the PvP extremists who call anyone who enjoys PvE a carebear and demand an empty world with only hardcore ffa action.
There's room for both types of gameplay. But more than anything else we need games that succeed in combining those playstyles effectively, as PvP is a great source of player interaction while PvE allows the devs to tell the story of the world.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Eve was self financed with a board game. That's the reason they could take the time they took to build the game they wanted to build. If Eve had investors or if CCP was a publicly held company, they would have collapsed long before they managed to pull Eve out of the hole it started in.
Every other developer who isn't self funded or Kickstarted isn't going to have that kind of time to get a game going.
**
CCP is not a publicly held company. Eve is the game, not the company.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is completely false and so far from truth it hurts me how ignorant people can be.
If one can bother to educate how game works than there is about 0,0001 chance to get killed out of the blue as a new player.
In proper zones everything (which goes especially for a new player without real wealth) can be done with practicaly 0 risk.
If there is a problem in EvE than that's the ammount of knoledge it requires to play properly. Meaning people who cba to read will have a hard time oposed to people who don't mind getting educated.
And thats the problem with hardlining one viewpoint and never even looking at the other side of the fence. It means if you want to speak about the issue you're doing so with a lack of understanding.
EVE can be played as a pure PVE game. You lose a lot of what makes it great and successful but i've never lost any of my PVE mission running ships to PVP. Not even one.
Even in Mortal Online people play that and avoid PVP. You can certainly avoid it as a new player as long as you like.
I would wager Darkfall has a similar new player experience. I'd be very surprised if I logged into Darkfall and was getting camped by players.
That crap just hasn't happened to me in an MMO since the 90s.
However, this was only really achieved when CCP made it a bannable offense to attack newbie players. In the early days Concord was easy to fool and some players would rampage through newbie zones massacring everyone. CCP tried to fix this through game mechanics but ultimately threw in the towel and just pulled out he banhammer to prevent this type of behaviour.
The fact remains that there are not a lot of other AAA games that aren't themepark questhubs. IMO the reasons...
1. Imitation of a WoW. Little to none AAA development in any other type of MMORPG.
2. Culture of themepark in developers. Themepark questhubs is what most developers know after 10 years.
3. This genre is very dogmatic and rarely anyone likes to break conventional wisdom or take risk. Conventional wisdom was that everyone wanted WoW like games because WoW was 16 more popular than other MMORPGs.
4. Cost of entry and quality. Combined those with cost entry to make MMORPGS and extreme niche of indie MMORPGS you have the current situation.
I was never talking about an experience of average player, I was demonstrating game mechanics and principles:
1) There is absolutely no need to fly large and/or expensive ships.
2) The game rewards you for your wit and knowledge, not so much for your labor.
The only real limiting factor in EVE is yourself. So yeah, YOU can't really do stuff but the game is not to be blamed.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky