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tobywong420 · May 2014

It works but poorly. I don't pay for things that work poorly, I return them.

kakasaki · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
It works but poorly. I don't pay for things that work poorly, I return them.

Immediately or do you use it for a month or so and then return it?

tobywong420 · May 2014

Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
You're absolutely right, I as a U.S. citizen am entitled to request a refund for a faulty/broken product. If you're a U.S. citizen you yourself are entitled to these same laws. Nothing more and nothing less.

Funny thing this is not what the law says. The following is from the DoJ and other consumer protection websites:

Defective Goods

Many consumers assume that they have the legal right to return merchandise to a seller for a full refund shortly after buying it. Generally speaking, that assumption is not true. However, some important exceptions to this rule do exist. Furthermore, consumers often have important warranty rights and may "reject" or "revoke acceptance" of defective merchandise under some circumstances. You may also want to refer to the section on Warranties for additional information.

The Law

Under the law, your right to return merchandise is usually created by a statute, contract, or store policy. If no statute, contract, or store policy creates that right, then a buyer cannot typically return the merchandise to the seller for a full refund.

Remedies do exist for consumers who need to return merchandise that is defective in some way. The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) has a somewhat complicated set of rules that govern "acceptance," "rejection," and "revocation of acceptance" of goods. (For more information about the UCC, refer to Warranties) These rights often include a right to a reimbursement of any payments made, resulting in a remedy that looks like a "refund" to the consumer. Note, however, that slight changes in facts may completely change an outcome under the UCC.

Rejection of a Good

A rejection of a good happens when a buyer purchases a good (or merchandise) and finds out that it fails to conform to the sales contract, including all express or implied warranties. You should note that according to the UCC, rejection occurs before the buyer actually "accepts" the good.

Accepting a Good Then Revoking the Acceptance

Ordinarily, a consumer goes to the store, inspects a representative sample of a good, selects that sample or a packaged item of the same kind, pays for the good, takes it out of the store and uses it. Under the UCC, the buyer's "acceptance" would usually be found to have occurred when the buyer walked out of the store with the good.

But what happens when a buyer "accepts" the merchandise and later discovers that it fails to meet the sales contract and warranty requirements? The buyer may be able to revoke acceptance of the merchandise, and, in effect, secure a "refund." Under the UCC, a buyer may revoke acceptance of merchandise that fails to satisfy sales contract requirements if:

The buyer accepted the merchandise before discovering the defect, and the defect was not readily apparent or easily discovered, or the seller assured the buyer that there was no defect

The buyer accepted the merchandise knowing it had a defect and reasonably assumed that the defect would be cured, yet the defect has not been cured

In either case, the consumer's revocation of acceptance must satisfy at least these preconditions:

The nonconformity of the good "substantially impairs" its value

The buyer notifies the seller within a reasonable time, before the good deteriorates substantially" due to causes unrelated to the defect related to the revocation

The buyer exercises the proper degree of care to protect the seller's interest in the good

Whenever words like "substantially impair," "reasonable time," and "reasonably assumed" appear in a statute, you may find yourself arguing with a seller over their meaning. As you might expect, courts have often made the final decision as to whether the facts of a case justify finding that something was "reasonable" or "substantial." Fortunately for consumers, many New Hampshire retailers have reasonable return policies when goods are found to be defective. Indeed, retailers will often allow returns even if the product is not defective.

Several state and federal laws give consumers, under specific circumstances, an unequivocal right to cancel a contract within a certain period of time.

In your specific case, what many of us have a problem with is that you clearly used the product for an extended period of time and then requested a refund. While the law may be a bit fussy about the definition of "reasonable time", there is less ambiguity about what is morally correct and what a person of character should do in a situation such as this. Alas, character and morals can not be legislated or codified into law...

I love that a defender posted this when it clearly proves the refunder's point. Within the 30 day trial period is definitely "reasonable time".

Aeonblades · May 2014

How is this thread still going? Come on guys and gals, you don't get to completely experience a product then return it a month later. That's not the way any consumer protection law should ever work. If you wait that long to return it, you enjoyed it enough to keep it.

A more reasonable limit would be 7-14 days after purchase, especially with a video game because a lot of people can easily complete them in that time frame. 30 days is far too long to be considered remotely reasonable. You wouldn't sit there with a refrigerator you ordered that didn't work for 30 days before you sent it back. You'd call the company that day, or maybe even that week.

No, this is just a case of more people wanting stuff for free and stamping their feet when they don't get it. Life isn't free peeps. Good luck out there!

[Deleted User] · May 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

tobywong420 · May 2014

Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by torn420
It works but poorly. I don't pay for things that work poorly, I return them.

Immediately or do you use it for a month or so and then return it?

I use it until I feel that the problems it has are not worth my time/effort to continue dealing with the issue.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

tobywong420 · May 2014

It's an MMO bros, you don't "experience" all of the game in 30 days, it's a living, breathing world. You can't "beat the game". They provided a poorly designed and broken product, I got stuck multiple times leveling, couldn't even log on for at least 3 days over a span of 3 weeks. We had close to 2 days of total downtime due to Zenimax bringing the servers down.

Please stop accusing people of just trying to get something for free. If we really liked the game, if it really did what it claimed it would, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Searias · May 2014

I wonder if the OP does the refund stuff with other games also :P.

Aeonblades · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
It's an MMO bros, you don't "experience" all of the game in 30 days, it's a living, breathing world. You can't "beat the game". They provided a poorly designed and broken product, I got stuck multiple times leveling, couldn't even log on for at least 3 days over a span of 3 weeks. We had close to 2 days of total downtime due to Zenimax bringing the servers down.

Please stop accusing people of just trying to get something for free. If we really liked the game, if it really did what it claimed it would, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It does not take 30+ days to realize if a product is for you or not. I'm sorry, indecision should have consequences, not rewards imo.

teti · May 2014

Originally posted by kakasaki
Originally posted by torn420
It works but poorly. I don't pay for things that work poorly, I return them.

Immediately or do you use it for a month or so and then return it?

Well the OP states that he did a request at 21 days and in this thread opinions seem to vary wildly on if that is acceptable or not. However, it all seems moot given the OP's last post he has/will get a refund if he goes back to his PayPal funding sources (Granted you have to hold at face value his account of his conversation with PayPal about said charge - something I would not dispute given it is just counter productive to do so).

What is unfortunate is all of the misrepresentation of Consumer Protection Laws and Rights in the USA, facts not in evidence statements <insert almost any discussion in this thread>, not reading or following the OP or the rest of the thread and the ever, in general, when an argument (as in - "an exchange of diverging or opposite views") occurs then it seems to get personal or rude. Frankly, feeling elation, validation, vindication, etc. about the OP is unhealthy.

It would be nice if people could debate things respectfully, logically and w/o cherry picking facts or statements but then I guess that is too much to ask for in an open forum on the internet.

tobywong420 · May 2014

It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Gdemami · May 2014

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989You wouldn't label it as 'not working at all' you'd label it as 'fault and many features are not working as intended' as much of the games mechanics do not work making it a faulty product.

Just because there are some bugs does not mean the product is faulty - the product is still usable and working by vast part which is acceptable and reasonable state of newly released software.

But than again, your are a liar.

Aeonblades · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

tobywong420 · May 2014

Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Free stuff would be me asking for a refund and then continuing to play a game I didn't pay for.

Krimzin · May 2014

I did it on a CC for just such an occasion. Anything dealing with Games, always use a CC, if there is a problem, 90% of the time you can do a charge back over the phone in 5min.

Paypal wont because if Zenimax drops them as a funding source it costs them a ton of money.

Aeonblades · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Likewise, repeating yourself won't convince me any less of people just wanting to use a product for free and get their money back afterwards. It has affected all realms of our society at this point, and I just don't see the logic behind giving people a reward for their indecision, as it just further perpetuates and exacerbates the issue at hand. If gamers continue to abuse return policies, eventually they will prevent returns period, and I really can't blame them.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

tobywong420 · May 2014

Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Likewise, repeating yourself won't convince me any less of people just wanting to use a product for free and get their money back afterwards. It has affected all realms of our society at this point, and I just don't see the logic behind giving people a reward for their indecision, as it just further perpetuates and exacerbates the issue at hand. If gamers continue to abuse return policies, eventually they will prevent returns period, and I really can't blame them.

How is it a reward to use a product that doesn't work? It has nothing to do with being indecisive. I wanted ESO. I wanted to play it for a long time, daily, without issues. That wasn't provided and to me, that's not acceptable.

Without these consumer policies in place, we would get walked on more than we currently do. Fact is, Zenimax should refund ANYONE within their 30 day period, as should any online gaming provider. It's a fault of our untested online/digital goods policies, has nothing to do with society, just new territory.

Nzscorpion80 · May 2014

So you bought a online MMO & you thought that it would be the first game in history of games not to release with bugs & problems. Maybe you should have waited & read reviews instead of bitching because you didnt like the game lol.

[Deleted User] · May 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

udon · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Free stuff would be me asking for a refund and then continuing to play a game I didn't pay for.

You know as bad as this industry is with game developers playing it safe if people like you became the norm and everyone could just return a game because it didn't fit into their vision of good it would become 10 times worse. What you are doing on a large scale would destroy what little innovation is left in the game industry.

Your choices should be buy the game at launch and take a chance or wait and see how it's received and play it safe. Refunds for anything short of something that just won't install or run should be out of the question.

tobywong420 · May 2014

Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Free stuff would be me asking for a refund and then continuing to play a game I didn't pay for.

You know as bad as this industry is with game developers playing it safe if people like you became the norm and everyone could just return a game because it didn't fit into their vision of good it would become 10 times worse. What you are doing on a large scale would destroy what little innovation is left in the game industry.

Your choices should be buy the game at launch and take a chance or wait and see how it's received and play it safe. Refunds for anything short of something that just won't install or run should be out of the question.

More games are made and sold today than ever before. We're at the height of video game innovation. Indie games actually have a chance now. Massive, multi-billion dollar corporations that are sucking up your dollar and spitting out unfinished trash for max profit is the problem with the industry, not someone who has an issue with said trash.

coorsguys · May 2014

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

You wouldn't label it as 'not working at all' you'd label it as 'fault and many features are not working as intended' as much of the games mechanics do not work making it a faulty product.

Just because there are some bugs does not mean the product is faulty - the product is still usable and working by vast part which is acceptable and reasonable state of newly released software.

But than again, your are a liar.

fault·y ?fôlt?/ - working badly or unreliably because of imperfections.

I'm a liar because I can state many of the issues wrong with this game?

or

I'm a liar because I know my consumer rights and use them when I purchased a product that's faulty?

I would not call you a liar. You are like an ambulance chaser lawyer. I would guess you had ZERO intention of sticking with ESO, you had ZERO intention of playing the game the way it was ment to play. You signed in and looked for issues, you tried to find bugs, you scoured the internet for other people bugs tried to track them down if you failed in reproducing their bugs you still wrote it down in your little spread sheet and then come to a game site and copy/paste your spread sheet and act like the game is unplayable.

No you may know your consumer rights, you also exploit them and show their faults. You are why in the future gaming companies and companies in general will continue to make their TOS and rules more robust to protect themselves against scammers like you.

coorsguys · May 2014

Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by torn420
Originally posted by Aeonblades
Originally posted by torn420
It took me about 15 days. I haven't had the game installed since April 24. The game was installed for 20 total days, I started on the 4th, I couldn't play for 5 of those said days. That's roughly 15 days. What does your arbitrary 7-14 days return time say about that? Like I said, Zenimax doesn't need anymore white knights, stop bandwagoning.

Then no, you do not deserve a refund. You had more than enough time to request a refund. I'm not "white knighting" or "bandwagoning". I would say this for ANY game purchased, not just ESO.

I'm sorry that we disagree, but giving people more stuff for free due to an inability to make a decision on a purchase isn't going to solve our problems as a society. Hope you have a good day!

I'm not asking for free stuff. I'm asking for a refund on defective product. Your inability to comprehend that is causing you to rehash the same argument over and over with different people.

Free stuff would be me asking for a refund and then continuing to play a game I didn't pay for.

You know as bad as this industry is with game developers playing it safe if people like you became the norm and everyone could just return a game because it didn't fit into their vision of good it would become 10 times worse. What you are doing on a large scale would destroy what little innovation is left in the game industry.

Your choices should be buy the game at launch and take a chance or wait and see how it's received and play it safe. Refunds for anything short of something that just won't install or run should be out of the question.

More games are made and sold today than ever before. We're at the height of video game innovation. Indie games actually have a chance now. Massive, multi-billion dollar corporations that are sucking up your dollar and spitting out unfinished trash for max profit is the problem with the industry, not someone who has an issue with said trash.

And there we have it the "I HATE BIG COMPNAY" "BIG COMPANY OUT TO GET ME" "ME NO LIKE BIG COMPANY" "IT COOL THING TO DO TO HATE ON BIG COMPNAY"

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