Originally posted by Fenrir767 It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.
The problem with vanilla WoW was Raids were basically the only thing to do at end game. WildStar has alot for a solo'er at end game.
And no the solo gear won't equal the raid loot but it honestly shouldn't. But what it will be is exactly what is needed for the content you are consuming.
....then said raid gear should not be usable by raiders in solo / regular group and pvp content as it will trivialize and demean that content. If the soloer doesn't need raid gear for that kind of content, then the raiders don't either.
By the way, since when has raiding not mattered in this genre? It's been the number one focus for end game in virtually every hardcore and casual MMO since the days of EverQuest.
As a casual player, I don't want to be catered to and I don't want easy mode. I don't expect to achieve the same goals the hardcore crowd or players with more time on their hands.
However, as MMO designs have become more finetuned, even I can hit the level cap relatively easily and quickly. What is usually there for me is neither fun nor engaging. I enjoy raids but it usually becomes a chore of finding players to run with regularly - when you can put in only an hour, I don't want to spend it looking for a group. I enjoy the challenge of a raid with good company. Unfortunately, when all meaningful progression is tied to raids, players like myself quit because rolling alts isn't my thing and I've typically exhausted crafting options.
This elder system sounds like a great way to keep me busy while still keeping the allure of raids and other group heavy endgame aspects. According to this, I should be able to make meaningful progression on nights I want to play but don't want to be sidelined looking for a group.
I think there is nothing wrong and whole lot right with having SOME end game content designed for the hardcore crowd, but to put all your raiding into the- hey, give up six hours of your life, bad decision. Well, bad decision is you ever want to grow your audience. WoW had and has a lot of good going for it, but the "only if you raid" gear centric model has been LONG proven to be a bad path. They have a lot of potential but if they don't make end game content for ALL players to enjoy, some for the hardcore, some for the not- they will greatly limit their audience. Its business 101. Also, its arrogant. I saw the way they handled their name reservation which is now exploding in their face as I speak, no website link in advance and if they can't handle something that basic- not a good sign. Again, I actually really like a whole lot about the game but I suspect they will need to learn some very painful lessons because in areas like raiding, the hardcore gamer being the most fickle of the fickle to keep always happy, the devs definitely are NOT listening to the rest of us
No one likes spending forever organising this stuff. It's not practical, creates a bad community and, as they say, 99% of the players won't even bother with it.... at which point they press that cancel button. Accessible endgame means more people stay for longer. The big MMO boom is over and they will NOT be able to recreate it. There's a reason WoW changed how this stuff worked.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I never understood while solo/small group players wanted the raid gear. You only need raid gear if you are doing raids. As a non raid player I never felt left out not being able to get raid gear, I just accepted it as something those players get for doing raids.
The end game in Wildstar for me will be housing. It seems like the housing is really involved and there's tons of items to find in drops and craft etc. You can even put old gear on mannequins to display.
Originally posted by Fendel84M I never understood while solo/small group players wanted the raid gear. You only need raid gear if you are doing raids. As a non raid player I never felt left out not being able to get raid gear, I just accepted it as something those players get for doing raids.
This x 1000 times
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I just don't get why they think it's going to be a rousing success bringing back 40 mans. Is there even a flexible variant model that might alleviate some of the waiting or big inconveniences (ie: one of the tanks going into labor, etc.)?
That's not my big issue anyway. Whenever I raid, and it's not a common occurrence, it's because of the lore and how much the bosses matter to the story. After all the years of playing WoW, I'd be excited to fight the warlords of Draenor because I know so much about the lore, even then when I was only half paying attention. I don't see myself bothering with endgame in WS because I don't care about what happens in the story even at the early levels (the hillbilly voiced characters on the exile side make me want to kick puppies).
Basically, if they gear end-game towards hardcore raiders and there's nothing to do BUT, the game will just fall off the radar as people reach max level. From what I've read however, there will be other things to do. They better be good.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.
I am not sure where this quote of 2% of players seeing the raid content came from, its not just you either. But, its complete shite to be honest. I was in a guild and went into MC the day it came about. Same with BWL, ZG and AQ20-40. I actually took a break at Naxx back then due to work and irl schedules conflicting for a while.
I would say the majority of players got to see raid content, I wouldn't say all of them completed it mind you. I know Twins in AQ40 broke some guilds.
The point of all this is that these large scale player operations is actually putting the MMO back out there for that I am glad! The whole point of playing an MMO was that you would play and interact with many people. Although people just want to play content as a solo adventure. What's the point, just play an RPG.
Now, I am not one for telling people how to play, but the point of it being an online game is that you interact with people, and I mean people other than the three friends that join you on your adventures. When did people get so anti-social that the idea of working and overcoming a challenge as a team seemed so daunting a task!
Well, they just successfully unsold me. Good job! Erm...something seems off about that. Ah well.
If I can't find a guild of 10 non-douchebag players in WoW, I'm certainly not going to bother trying it for $60 among a pack of More Elite Than You machokids.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 If that is the root they are taking with no LFR or any way for casuals to see the content they are putting a ton of pressure on their content creating machine to keep the rest of the game amazing. I personally see this as a mistake as they at targeting a small sect of players.
As long as they don't have unrealistic expectations for how many people they need to play their game to stay profitable, and at the same time creating content that non-raiders will enjoy and will keep them occupied in between content patches, this game should do ok.
The downfall of MMOs within the past few years have been large budgets and then failing to meet expectations to pay back their investors in a reasonable amount of time, short of converting to F2P.
I never understood while solo/small group players wanted the raid gear. You only need raid gear if you are doing raids. As a non raid player I never felt left out not being able to get raid gear, I just accepted it as something those players get for doing raids.
The end game in Wildstar for me will be housing. It seems like the housing is really involved and there's tons of items to find in drops and craft etc. You can even put old gear on mannequins to display.
As long as Raid gear is strictly for tiered raiding sure, there's no reason for a non-raider to need it. ON the other hand if it's viable over other gear in other parts of the game it's a different story all together. I"ve never quite seen anyone argue they want raid gear per se though, I've seen plenty of people wanting other playstyles to be equally rewarded. I think that's a fair request if those playstyles require equal dedication (IE Crafting and certain types of PVP).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i dont understand why people are whining in the comments. The dev just said they will have end game progression for everybody, whether you are a raider, soloer, or pvper.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Originally posted by Fenrir767 It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.
I am not sure where this quote of 2% of players seeing the raid content came from, its not just you either. But, its complete shite to be honest. I was in a guild and went into MC the day it came about. Same with BWL, ZG and AQ20-40. I actually took a break at Naxx back then due to work and irl schedules conflicting for a while.
Several Developers, including Blizzard and Turbine have released these figures in the past, stating it as reason as to why they dropped large scale RAID content as not financial feasible anymore to continue spend tons of time on creating it, when only a tiny fraction of the playerbase use it!
They saw that Group content like 5-man and 10-man was consumed by a much large portion of the population. So they started focussing on that instead.
Originally posted by gessekai332 i dont understand why people are whining in the comments. The dev just said they will have end game progression for everybody, whether you are a raider, soloer, or pvper.
Just guessing, but I suppose many non 'elite raiders' are simply sick of playing Animal Farm: The MMO.
As the Wildstar devs would say, "Suck it up, buttercup." This might not be the easy mode lobby game some of you are looking for. That's fine. You have plenty of other options if you don't enjoy a challenge or large scale cooperative pve. Not every game will be for.everyone, but at least wildstar gives the people like me a place to go for such content.
Yeah, I love these gamers that think raiding is so skillful. Need organization, yes. Skill, not so much. Maybe the first few guilds that run each raid have to figure things out, after that it's just organizing and communicating and doing the same thing each raid group ahead of you have done.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 It's that hardcore mentality that is keeping me away from this game when WoW had only 2% of players seeing the raid content that was a problem. Will Solo loot equal raid loot but only require a time sink? Otherwise Wildstar is back where Blizzard was.
What does a solo player want Raid Gear for... to... further destroy solo content removing the slight level of challenge it has to start with?
Raid Gear is for raiders, so they can keep clearing raid content. If you do casual 5 man dungeons, the gear you get from dungeons is good enough for that. If you want good gear for PvPing, the gear you get from Prestive points (arena, BG) is better suited than raid gear, so go and get it. You get gear from doing what you like most, to keep doing what you like most efficiently.
I'll never get this casual mindset of "because I don't have 40 friends that are nerdy enough and don't have time for big guilds, I can't get the best gear of the game". What you have to ask yourself is what the FFFF do you want that gear for. You don't need it. And if it's for bragging rights then go ahead and earn it.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
There is a difference between having quality end-game raiding and having your entire end-game revolve around raiding.
I don't think most reasonable casual players want an easy mode or a "solo" way of acquiring rewards typically reserved for raiding. In fact, most reasonable casual players enjoy challenges and enjoy having things to work towards.
However, when an end-game revolves around raiding, that means any form of meaningful progression is left to the typical raid/gear grind treadmill. That means when I hit level-cap, most of my gaming sessions will revolve around coordinating my efforts with other players to do said raiding so I can continue to progress my character. The level of coordination required to successfully do said raids take time. For most reasonable casual players, this time isn't that big of a deal once a week or a few times across a couple weeks. We consider that acceptable and typically enjoy being involved with a raid.
For players who have a lot of time to burn, they simply don't understand. In games with very flexible lockouts or no lockouts, I've had guildies run raid style content 4-5x in one day. I don't want my daily game session to primarily consist of trying to pull together a group of folks to run (sometimes you're lucky, but most of the time you're not).
But give me other avenues of progression (fun, engaging avenues) than I will be happy and I will sub indefinitely. I'm tired of being told to simply roll an alt or go back to crafting. I actually want to play the game and continue to invest in the character I've grown attached to.
All that aside, the elder system sounds really spiffy and up my alley. It sounds like something I could enjoy most of the week and dive into a raid on the weekend if I have the time. That would be cool. However, Carbine isn't really talking much about the elder system as it is all these really cool raids they have.
The elder system could very much be what "casual" players want to hear about. But as of right now, they are only preaching to the "hardcore" crowd ( which as one poster pointed out, is typically the least loyal and most finicky of customers).
Reasonable casual players do not want an easy mode. They simply just want to be engaged and entertained.
This will certainly keep me far far away. I got sick and tired of wasting 8 hours of my life a night in vanilla wow. Plenty of other games for me thankfully. This is a no go.
Is it just me or are the majority of commenters missing that the interviewee said that raids aren't the be all end all. From what I read here he was saying that you could be incredibly hardcore 40 man raider or just a solo player and that they intend to fully support every type of player. It's pretty obvious that you won't be able to get the best of the best gear but does everyone need it? I'm not a raider and I was actually encouraged by this interview.
Comments
....then said raid gear should not be usable by raiders in solo / regular group and pvp content as it will trivialize and demean that content. If the soloer doesn't need raid gear for that kind of content, then the raiders don't either.
By the way, since when has raiding not mattered in this genre? It's been the number one focus for end game in virtually every hardcore and casual MMO since the days of EverQuest.
As a casual player, I don't want to be catered to and I don't want easy mode. I don't expect to achieve the same goals the hardcore crowd or players with more time on their hands.
However, as MMO designs have become more finetuned, even I can hit the level cap relatively easily and quickly. What is usually there for me is neither fun nor engaging. I enjoy raids but it usually becomes a chore of finding players to run with regularly - when you can put in only an hour, I don't want to spend it looking for a group. I enjoy the challenge of a raid with good company. Unfortunately, when all meaningful progression is tied to raids, players like myself quit because rolling alts isn't my thing and I've typically exhausted crafting options.
This elder system sounds like a great way to keep me busy while still keeping the allure of raids and other group heavy endgame aspects. According to this, I should be able to make meaningful progression on nights I want to play but don't want to be sidelined looking for a group.
I never understood while solo/small group players wanted the raid gear. You only need raid gear if you are doing raids. As a non raid player I never felt left out not being able to get raid gear, I just accepted it as something those players get for doing raids.
The end game in Wildstar for me will be housing. It seems like the housing is really involved and there's tons of items to find in drops and craft etc. You can even put old gear on mannequins to display.
This x 1000 times
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I just don't get why they think it's going to be a rousing success bringing back 40 mans. Is there even a flexible variant model that might alleviate some of the waiting or big inconveniences (ie: one of the tanks going into labor, etc.)?
That's not my big issue anyway. Whenever I raid, and it's not a common occurrence, it's because of the lore and how much the bosses matter to the story. After all the years of playing WoW, I'd be excited to fight the warlords of Draenor because I know so much about the lore, even then when I was only half paying attention. I don't see myself bothering with endgame in WS because I don't care about what happens in the story even at the early levels (the hillbilly voiced characters on the exile side make me want to kick puppies).
Basically, if they gear end-game towards hardcore raiders and there's nothing to do BUT, the game will just fall off the radar as people reach max level. From what I've read however, there will be other things to do. They better be good.
They just do this for the launch game to try to lure in the hardcore crowd and increase Box sales.
After that, you will only see small Group content being released.
It's just not feasible spending a lot of Resources (= Money) on large RAID content, which will only be consumed by less than 2% of the population.
It's just way too expensive, when only a tiny percentage of the game's population consumes it.
It's the primary reason why Blizzard dropped 40man Raid content.
It's the primary reason why Turbine dropped it in LOTRO.
I am not sure where this quote of 2% of players seeing the raid content came from, its not just you either. But, its complete shite to be honest. I was in a guild and went into MC the day it came about. Same with BWL, ZG and AQ20-40. I actually took a break at Naxx back then due to work and irl schedules conflicting for a while.
I would say the majority of players got to see raid content, I wouldn't say all of them completed it mind you. I know Twins in AQ40 broke some guilds.
The point of all this is that these large scale player operations is actually putting the MMO back out there for that I am glad! The whole point of playing an MMO was that you would play and interact with many people. Although people just want to play content as a solo adventure. What's the point, just play an RPG.
Now, I am not one for telling people how to play, but the point of it being an online game is that you interact with people, and I mean people other than the three friends that join you on your adventures. When did people get so anti-social that the idea of working and overcoming a challenge as a team seemed so daunting a task!
Well, they just successfully unsold me. Good job! Erm...something seems off about that. Ah well.
If I can't find a guild of 10 non-douchebag players in WoW, I'm certainly not going to bother trying it for $60 among a pack of More Elite Than You machokids.
As long as they don't have unrealistic expectations for how many people they need to play their game to stay profitable, and at the same time creating content that non-raiders will enjoy and will keep them occupied in between content patches, this game should do ok.
The downfall of MMOs within the past few years have been large budgets and then failing to meet expectations to pay back their investors in a reasonable amount of time, short of converting to F2P.
As long as Raid gear is strictly for tiered raiding sure, there's no reason for a non-raider to need it. ON the other hand if it's viable over other gear in other parts of the game it's a different story all together. I"ve never quite seen anyone argue they want raid gear per se though, I've seen plenty of people wanting other playstyles to be equally rewarded. I think that's a fair request if those playstyles require equal dedication (IE Crafting and certain types of PVP).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Several Developers, including Blizzard and Turbine have released these figures in the past, stating it as reason as to why they dropped large scale RAID content as not financial feasible anymore to continue spend tons of time on creating it, when only a tiny fraction of the playerbase use it!
They saw that Group content like 5-man and 10-man was consumed by a much large portion of the population. So they started focussing on that instead.
Just guessing, but I suppose many non 'elite raiders' are simply sick of playing Animal Farm: The MMO.
I really like the game, but i can't shake the F2P feeling it gives me.
40 mans is a thing of the past. Carbine should have learned of other companie's mistakes instead of repeating them.
Huge raids aren't worth the trouble anymore, neither for the devs nor for the guilds.
Yeah, I love these gamers that think raiding is so skillful. Need organization, yes. Skill, not so much. Maybe the first few guilds that run each raid have to figure things out, after that it's just organizing and communicating and doing the same thing each raid group ahead of you have done.
What does a solo player want Raid Gear for... to... further destroy solo content removing the slight level of challenge it has to start with?
Raid Gear is for raiders, so they can keep clearing raid content. If you do casual 5 man dungeons, the gear you get from dungeons is good enough for that. If you want good gear for PvPing, the gear you get from Prestive points (arena, BG) is better suited than raid gear, so go and get it. You get gear from doing what you like most, to keep doing what you like most efficiently.
I'll never get this casual mindset of "because I don't have 40 friends that are nerdy enough and don't have time for big guilds, I can't get the best gear of the game". What you have to ask yourself is what the FFFF do you want that gear for. You don't need it. And if it's for bragging rights then go ahead and earn it.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Carbine does seem to get that they can't make raids matter again if they don't matter to the majority of gamers.
If 40man matter will be up on the guilds and if only 5% take part there, i'm curious how long 40mans will matter to Carbine.
There is a difference between having quality end-game raiding and having your entire end-game revolve around raiding.
I don't think most reasonable casual players want an easy mode or a "solo" way of acquiring rewards typically reserved for raiding. In fact, most reasonable casual players enjoy challenges and enjoy having things to work towards.
However, when an end-game revolves around raiding, that means any form of meaningful progression is left to the typical raid/gear grind treadmill. That means when I hit level-cap, most of my gaming sessions will revolve around coordinating my efforts with other players to do said raiding so I can continue to progress my character. The level of coordination required to successfully do said raids take time. For most reasonable casual players, this time isn't that big of a deal once a week or a few times across a couple weeks. We consider that acceptable and typically enjoy being involved with a raid.
For players who have a lot of time to burn, they simply don't understand. In games with very flexible lockouts or no lockouts, I've had guildies run raid style content 4-5x in one day. I don't want my daily game session to primarily consist of trying to pull together a group of folks to run (sometimes you're lucky, but most of the time you're not).
But give me other avenues of progression (fun, engaging avenues) than I will be happy and I will sub indefinitely. I'm tired of being told to simply roll an alt or go back to crafting. I actually want to play the game and continue to invest in the character I've grown attached to.
All that aside, the elder system sounds really spiffy and up my alley. It sounds like something I could enjoy most of the week and dive into a raid on the weekend if I have the time. That would be cool. However, Carbine isn't really talking much about the elder system as it is all these really cool raids they have.
The elder system could very much be what "casual" players want to hear about. But as of right now, they are only preaching to the "hardcore" crowd ( which as one poster pointed out, is typically the least loyal and most finicky of customers).
Reasonable casual players do not want an easy mode. They simply just want to be engaged and entertained.