Anyone who says the telegraph system makes the game too easy obviously hasn't been following the game at all. It's been made pretty clear that the game is meant for people who like a challenge.
Also.. you can turn the telegraphs off. Wow... /thread.
I can see both sides here. On one hand, for the challenge, I may not want the telegraphs on and it could be less distracting. On the other, I dont want to fight the dungeon boss more then a half a dozen times because the party keeps getting wiped. After that I may want it turned on. It could be a good thing.
I also read that there is an off for the telegraph system. But I wonder how that would work in a group dungeon or raid? I would hate that everyone in the group is using it but that one person. And that one person keeps dying because of not knowing the fight and cues. I would hope the party/raid leader would have the option to turn it on or off for everyone so all would be on the same playing field, so to speak.
Edit to add:
Another thought, if in fact that you took down an elite or dungeon / raid boss without using the telegraph system, then the rewards should be greater.
I would like to think players who turn them off will be smart enough to turn them back on until they learn the fights. If they don't they will probably quit or youtube the fights beforehand.
To answer the question in the title of the thread, I think I like the telegraphs, especially in group content. I don't need the telegraphs, but I like them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Telegraphs are a bad game mechanic. The animation itself should make clear where it hits not a shape on the ground. This leads to you watching the ground constantly instead of the action in front of you. I absolutely hate it! I mean look at this video with telegraphs turned off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxlVFfEGJM&t=2m
The effect clutter even without telegraphs is bad enough in my opinion. It's just a nightmare with them turned on.
Telegraphs are a bad game mechanic. The animation itself should make clear where it hits not a shape on the ground. This leads to you watching the ground constantly instead of the action in front of you. I absolutely hate it! I mean look at this video with telegraphs turned off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxlVFfEGJM&t=2m
The effect clutter even without telegraphs is bad enough in my opinion. It's just a nightmare with them turned on.
This really isn't all that different than most other mmos I've played that use heavy aoe effects, especially in raids and dungeons. During the time I played I never found myself staring at the ground around me any more than I should have. You should be paying attention to everything going on around you in group situations.
Ability telegraphing is the new "it" for all MMO's coming out that are from the hype machines.
EverQuest Next: Moderate Telegraphs. (some abilities and AoE's are telegraphed, others are not; 50/50 split)
The Elder Scrolls Online: Light Telegraphs (only seen two in the videos from this past Friday)
Guild Wars 2: Light Telegraphs (i.e. AoE Red Rings)
Wildstar: Heavy Telegraphs (nearly everything in the game is telegraphed with ability mapping)
The bonus of this: All of these games are moving to Area-of-Effect attacking. Static ability targeting of a single target is something that is getting phased out in MMO's. Fewer and fewer single-target abilities are being produced as spells and sword swings hit multiple targets.
The downside is that telegraphs are basically idiot-proofing for a game. AoE's that are distance ground targeted are kind of an exception. I'm more talking about the Ogre club smash, the bull's charge, cannon firing forwards: those things have animations to them. Animations are clearly visible and interpretable to those of a average intelligence. But these thing are getting flashing light shows for the idiots of the world that play the game too, to accommodate their lack of attentive awareness.
Wildstar is in the red for a reason: too damned accommodating to stupid people.
The worse thing? people still manage to get hit and die by this crap when there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area. IMO it takes a really special type of person (and not in a good way either) to actually die by this stuff when the game bascally tells you where to avoid standing. I used to facepalm so hard in ff14 when party members would die to stuff like this, same in rift, its like "yeah big red circle or line, move a step or 2 away from it" but no they just stand in it anyway, The problem is in most of these games these telegraphs aren't much of a threat, you may lose half your hp, but you can just be healed up, now if they made the same telegraph pretty much 1 shot you guarnteed (unless maybe if your a tank) if you don't get out of it, people will get it beat into their heads quickly that these are bad to stand in. The problem is most games wait too late to try to beat this into peoples heads, and by then its too late, from what I hear wildstar beats it into you pretty early that standing in those red things is very very bad.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
I think it WildStar's case, it's overused. There are some games out there that incorporate the telegraph system into it's combat system and it works much better. In mass combat you can't tell what is being charged up so you can't really use your dodge mechanic all that well.
i remember when engaging in a fight in game was risky and unpredictable. Now we see entire games developed around predictability. You know exactly how and when to avoid an attack, just move out of the telegraph = ding ding!. The days of real exciting combat are no more for mmorpgs unfortunately. Sure you can turn them off, but because the game is built around it, you cant avoid a sword swing by dodging, you have to go outside the telegraph. If this nonsense continues i dont know whats going to happen to mmorpgs, but its not good.
I love it. I think it's the best new idea I've seen in an MMO in a very long time.
I hate to sound so... fanboyish, but I really do think Carbine nailed the combat in this game. We've seen a long string of MMOs trying to bridge the gulf between more interactive, action-style combat and the traditional click-a-skill and wait sort of thing. Carbine's system is, I think, the best integrated of the lot. It doesn't feel like an MMO that's trying to be a single player action game.
Originally posted by moosecatlol Personally I find it disgusting that developers find us too inept to ever learn how to dodge without them.
How can you dodge them though if you have no idea what the hit area looks like? I mean yeah, a boulder flying straight towards you is pretty obvious, but what about something like spikes rupturing from the ground? There needs be some sort of indicator.
I agree with moosecat on this... A serious devolution in gaming design.
I mean how did we survive in MMO's without telegraphs... Easily we just did...
What would have been better as you described if there was spikes coming up through the ground, perhaps use an actual visual queue like the ground shaking, perhaps seeing just the tips of the spikes protrude? But hey why bother with all that fancy stuff when a giant red triangle would do.
When I read responses like, "Without telegraphs on the ground, how do you know where the attack is going to hit, or where you need to be to avoid it?", all I can wonder is... did none of these people ever play any of the classic games from the 80s and even 90s? The didn't give you specific markers/areas to show exactly where not to be, etc. The enemies had certain behaviors/actions that would happen prior to certain attacks, and you learned them through trial and error. Just one example... Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. Every single enemy had certain moves or poses they'd do prior to a given attack. You learned those moves, learned the timing, and learned how to avoid them. Before long, it became almost muscle memory.
Of course, that meant "not winning the fight and getting your reward on the first or second try so you could move on to the next big boss to get your next reward..." - which people seem to have almost no tolerance for anymore. And I have a feeling that's the real issue. It's more about "wanting to get their rewards more easily", and less about "the fights being too difficult without helpers".
not really liking it. I think Ws is a great game, but the telegraph just left me feeling to busy. MMORPG's are social games, so I like to have to chat it up to even when in combat. With WS your level concentration is pushed a bit more than many other mmorpg's - you have to focus more and that takes away from the conversations sometimes.
When I read responses like, "Without telegraphs on the ground, how do you know where the attack is going to hit, or where you need to be to avoid it?", all I can wonder is... did none of these people ever play any of the classic games from the 80s and even 90s? The didn't give you specific markers/areas to show exactly where not to be, etc. The enemies had certain behaviors/actions that would happen prior to certain attacks, and you learned them through trial and error. Just one example... Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. Every single enemy had certain moves or poses they'd do prior to a given attack. You learned those moves, learned the timing, and learned how to avoid them. Before long, it became almost muscle memory.
Of course, that meant "not winning the fight and getting your reward on the first or second try so you could move on to the next big boss to get your next reward..." - which people seem to have almost no tolerance for anymore. And I have a feeling that's the real issue. It's more about "wanting to get their rewards more easily", and less about "the fights being too difficult without helpers".
that would be a wonderful thing to bring back to mmorpgs. Its not very enjoyable to beat everything on the first try in every mmo that comes out. Limiting challenges to... i dont know, instanced hardcore raids that only a minority do? pffff make the entire game challenging, please.
Ability telegraphing is the new "it" for all MMO's coming out that are from the hype machines.
EverQuest Next: Moderate Telegraphs. (some abilities and AoE's are telegraphed, others are not; 50/50 split)
The Elder Scrolls Online: Light Telegraphs (only seen two in the videos from this past Friday)
Guild Wars 2: Light Telegraphs (i.e. AoE Red Rings)
Wildstar: Heavy Telegraphs (nearly everything in the game is telegraphed with ability mapping)
The bonus of this: All of these games are moving to Area-of-Effect attacking. Static ability targeting of a single target is something that is getting phased out in MMO's. Fewer and fewer single-target abilities are being produced as spells and sword swings hit multiple targets.
The downside is that telegraphs are basically idiot-proofing for a game. AoE's that are distance ground targeted are kind of an exception. I'm more talking about the Ogre club smash, the bull's charge, cannon firing forwards: those things have animations to them. Animations are clearly visible and interpretable to those of a average intelligence. But these thing are getting flashing light shows for the idiots of the world that play the game too, to accommodate their lack of attentive awareness.
Wildstar is in the red for a reason: too damned accommodating to stupid people.
The worse thing? people still manage to get hit and die by this crap when there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area. IMO it takes a really special type of person (and not in a good way either) to actually die by this stuff when the game bascally tells you where to avoid standing. I used to facepalm so hard in ff14 when party members would die to stuff like this, same in rift, its like "yeah big red circle or line, move a step or 2 away from it" but no they just stand in it anyway, The problem is in most of these games these telegraphs aren't much of a threat, you may lose half your hp, but you can just be healed up, now if they made the same telegraph pretty much 1 shot you guarnteed (unless maybe if your a tank) if you don't get out of it, people will get it beat into their heads quickly that these are bad to stand in. The problem is most games wait too late to try to beat this into peoples heads, and by then its too late, from what I hear wildstar beats it into you pretty early that standing in those red things is very very bad.
This guys! This right here is a good exemple, that if you wanna bash something , you first need to do your home-work. Unfortunately , the above poster has no clue about the telegraph system in WS ( those are his words "from what I hear" ) , and still , he believes people who dies in Wildstar are bad.
Play the game Mr Siveria , and then come back here and tell us how pro you are and how you never died because hey, there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area , ok?
PS: Play the game = Play it. Not just login, kill some mobs, then log off quickly and say " HEY, I DIDN'T DIE"...
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
When I read responses like, "Without telegraphs on the ground, how do you know where the attack is going to hit, or where you need to be to avoid it?", all I can wonder is... did none of these people ever play any of the classic games from the 80s and even 90s? The didn't give you specific markers/areas to show exactly where not to be, etc. The enemies had certain behaviors/actions that would happen prior to certain attacks, and you learned them through trial and error. Just one example... Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. Every single enemy had certain moves or poses they'd do prior to a given attack. You learned those moves, learned the timing, and learned how to avoid them. Before long, it became almost muscle memory.
Of course, that meant "not winning the fight and getting your reward on the first or second try so you could move on to the next big boss to get your next reward..." - which people seem to have almost no tolerance for anymore. And I have a feeling that's the real issue. It's more about "wanting to get their rewards more easily", and less about "the fights being too difficult without helpers".
that would be a wonderful thing to bring back to mmorpgs. Its not very enjoyable to beat everything on the first try in every mmo that comes out. Limiting challenges to... i dont know, instanced hardcore raids that only a minority do? pffff make the entire game challenging, please.
While I do completely agree with making games challenging again, there is a whole generation that would rage quit if a game came out and didn't telegraph. They have come to depend on it vice paying attention to the action taking place and learning. the catch phrase is instant gratification. Failure makes people feel bad and we can't have that.
I do not like the telegraph system in WS. When you raid, you have no percetion of what to actually do. It gets messy really fast. Just watch some endgame raids from the beta or actual "garrison" raid-pvp footage. Way too much going on.
Also the targeting system is nothing new. Same as in every game. Most would recognize it from Tera, but this targeting system is similar to any other targeting system without actual hitboxes: Either you hit or you do not hit the huge invisible box around each character. Nothing really skillful involved here.
See latest ESO: You aimed at an opponent, your crosshair was over his hitbox, you pressed the attack, in this case a charged attack, totally looked the other way and not targetting him again - your attack was still hitting.
My little cousin is trying to get me in wildstar. I was never interested in this game before. While i tried to like it for him, i could not stop making fun of this game while he took it as an offense. I made fun of one feature: The telegraph system and how overused it is.
I feel like you can dodge everything. I'm from the megaman X era and i'm one of these players that have to learn to die before dodging everything. From watching one pve video of wild star, i don't see myself dying unless i get tired of trying to kill an high level enemy when i'm level 10-20 because it might take an hour.
I just beat dark souls and i'm waiting for the next one. That's one game i would not play if they had a telegraph system.
My question is: Will there be a server to completely remove these silly red lights that you see everyday at each intersections?
Yeah, wild star is a lot like dark souls, as it's the only game where you will die if you don't dodge.
DS is a good thing to compare WS to, I know everyone will think I'm insane for it, but no, I think it's apt.
DS has telegraphs, they are just the monster moving his arm or his leg or his body and then attacking, you have to react to the monster's movements.
This system won't work in a mmo with 40 people in between you and the massive monster, so they had to have some sort of translation to the mmo genre. And the colored lights on the ground is the translation.
The worse thing? people still manage to get hit and die by this crap when there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area. IMO it takes a really special type of person (and not in a good way either) to actually die by this stuff when the game bascally tells you where to avoid standing. I used to facepalm so hard in ff14 when party members would die to stuff like this, same in rift, its like "yeah big red circle or line, move a step or 2 away from it" but no they just stand in it anyway, The problem is in most of these games these telegraphs aren't much of a threat, you may lose half your hp, but you can just be healed up, now if they made the same telegraph pretty much 1 shot you guarnteed (unless maybe if your a tank) if you don't get out of it, people will get it beat into their heads quickly that these are bad to stand in. The problem is most games wait too late to try to beat this into peoples heads, and by then its too late, from what I hear wildstar beats it into you pretty early that standing in those red things is very very bad.
I dont know about everyone else but I have died ONLY in 2 situations and none of them were because the fights were tough:
1) when the mobs lock onto my character and unrealistically hit me from angles and distances (no lagging) that make no sense while im kiting them, and
2) when i get sick of hop in and out of telegraph areas and its so annoying i just dont care anymore and just stand still spamming keys to end the fight (win or lose) as quick as possible.
IMO (In My Opinion) focusing on Telegraphs instead of actual combat mechanics is not a cool feature, just a tedious one.
Yeah, wild star is a lot like dark souls, as it's the only game where you will die if you don't dodge.
DS is a good thing to compare WS to, I know everyone will think I'm insane for it, but no, I think it's apt.
DS has telegraphs, they are just the monster moving his arm or his leg or his body and then attacking, you have to react to the monster's movements.
This system won't work in a mmo with 40 people in between you and the massive monster, so they had to have some sort of translation to the mmo genre. And the colored lights on the ground is the translation.
i wont say you are insane but i say you are not exactly right in that comparison with DS. In Dark Souls you can stand right in front of any enemy and if you time your dodge right the attack will not hit you. In WS, on the other hand, no matter where you stand you WILL get hit if you dont move outside of the telegraph no matter how many times you dodge. It is not the same thing. I wish mmorpgs developed those DS combat mechanics. Instead we get (even with more action based combat) that tab target mechanic of lockin onto enemies so every attack will hit the target (or you) even if you visually dodge the swing of the weapon. Under the hood the visual animations of the combat itself mean nothing, and that is lame.
Comments
I can see both sides here. On one hand, for the challenge, I may not want the telegraphs on and it could be less distracting. On the other, I dont want to fight the dungeon boss more then a half a dozen times because the party keeps getting wiped. After that I may want it turned on. It could be a good thing.
I also read that there is an off for the telegraph system. But I wonder how that would work in a group dungeon or raid? I would hate that everyone in the group is using it but that one person. And that one person keeps dying because of not knowing the fight and cues. I would hope the party/raid leader would have the option to turn it on or off for everyone so all would be on the same playing field, so to speak.
Edit to add:
Another thought, if in fact that you took down an elite or dungeon / raid boss without using the telegraph system, then the rewards should be greater.
I would like to think players who turn them off will be smart enough to turn them back on until they learn the fights. If they don't they will probably quit or youtube the fights beforehand.
To answer the question in the title of the thread, I think I like the telegraphs, especially in group content. I don't need the telegraphs, but I like them.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Telegraphs are a bad game mechanic. The animation itself should make clear where it hits not a shape on the ground. This leads to you watching the ground constantly instead of the action in front of you. I absolutely hate it! I mean look at this video with telegraphs turned off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxlVFfEGJM&t=2m
The effect clutter even without telegraphs is bad enough in my opinion. It's just a nightmare with them turned on.
This really isn't all that different than most other mmos I've played that use heavy aoe effects, especially in raids and dungeons. During the time I played I never found myself staring at the ground around me any more than I should have. You should be paying attention to everything going on around you in group situations.
The worse thing? people still manage to get hit and die by this crap when there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area. IMO it takes a really special type of person (and not in a good way either) to actually die by this stuff when the game bascally tells you where to avoid standing. I used to facepalm so hard in ff14 when party members would die to stuff like this, same in rift, its like "yeah big red circle or line, move a step or 2 away from it" but no they just stand in it anyway, The problem is in most of these games these telegraphs aren't much of a threat, you may lose half your hp, but you can just be healed up, now if they made the same telegraph pretty much 1 shot you guarnteed (unless maybe if your a tank) if you don't get out of it, people will get it beat into their heads quickly that these are bad to stand in. The problem is most games wait too late to try to beat this into peoples heads, and by then its too late, from what I hear wildstar beats it into you pretty early that standing in those red things is very very bad.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I love it. I think it's the best new idea I've seen in an MMO in a very long time.
I hate to sound so... fanboyish, but I really do think Carbine nailed the combat in this game. We've seen a long string of MMOs trying to bridge the gulf between more interactive, action-style combat and the traditional click-a-skill and wait sort of thing. Carbine's system is, I think, the best integrated of the lot. It doesn't feel like an MMO that's trying to be a single player action game.
I agree with moosecat on this... A serious devolution in gaming design.
I mean how did we survive in MMO's without telegraphs... Easily we just did...
What would have been better as you described if there was spikes coming up through the ground, perhaps use an actual visual queue like the ground shaking, perhaps seeing just the tips of the spikes protrude? But hey why bother with all that fancy stuff when a giant red triangle would do.
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
When I read responses like, "Without telegraphs on the ground, how do you know where the attack is going to hit, or where you need to be to avoid it?", all I can wonder is... did none of these people ever play any of the classic games from the 80s and even 90s? The didn't give you specific markers/areas to show exactly where not to be, etc. The enemies had certain behaviors/actions that would happen prior to certain attacks, and you learned them through trial and error. Just one example... Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. Every single enemy had certain moves or poses they'd do prior to a given attack. You learned those moves, learned the timing, and learned how to avoid them. Before long, it became almost muscle memory.
Of course, that meant "not winning the fight and getting your reward on the first or second try so you could move on to the next big boss to get your next reward..." - which people seem to have almost no tolerance for anymore. And I have a feeling that's the real issue. It's more about "wanting to get their rewards more easily", and less about "the fights being too difficult without helpers".
that would be a wonderful thing to bring back to mmorpgs. Its not very enjoyable to beat everything on the first try in every mmo that comes out. Limiting challenges to... i dont know, instanced hardcore raids that only a minority do? pffff make the entire game challenging, please.
This guys! This right here is a good exemple, that if you wanna bash something , you first need to do your home-work. Unfortunately , the above poster has no clue about the telegraph system in WS ( those are his words "from what I hear" ) , and still , he believes people who dies in Wildstar are bad.
Play the game Mr Siveria , and then come back here and tell us how pro you are and how you never died because hey, there is a BIG RED CIRCLE telling you to stay out of the area , ok?
PS: Play the game = Play it. Not just login, kill some mobs, then log off quickly and say " HEY, I DIDN'T DIE"...
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
To be brief on this : I hate it as it's a core feature of the combat system and the game i wont be playing it .
While I do completely agree with making games challenging again, there is a whole generation that would rage quit if a game came out and didn't telegraph. They have come to depend on it vice paying attention to the action taking place and learning. the catch phrase is instant gratification. Failure makes people feel bad and we can't have that.
my 2 cents, nope...
Z.
The whole idea is to keep mouse-clikers and baddies away from this game.
Love it.
The telegraph system is nothing new.
I do not like the telegraph system in WS. When you raid, you have no percetion of what to actually do. It gets messy really fast. Just watch some endgame raids from the beta or actual "garrison" raid-pvp footage. Way too much going on.
Also the targeting system is nothing new. Same as in every game. Most would recognize it from Tera, but this targeting system is similar to any other targeting system without actual hitboxes: Either you hit or you do not hit the huge invisible box around each character. Nothing really skillful involved here.
See latest ESO: You aimed at an opponent, your crosshair was over his hitbox, you pressed the attack, in this case a charged attack, totally looked the other way and not targetting him again - your attack was still hitting.
It gets lame these days..
Yeah, wild star is a lot like dark souls, as it's the only game where you will die if you don't dodge.
DS is a good thing to compare WS to, I know everyone will think I'm insane for it, but no, I think it's apt.
DS has telegraphs, they are just the monster moving his arm or his leg or his body and then attacking, you have to react to the monster's movements.
This system won't work in a mmo with 40 people in between you and the massive monster, so they had to have some sort of translation to the mmo genre. And the colored lights on the ground is the translation.
By putting in such simplistic visual queues to indicate bad or good?
This is a baddies dream
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
I dont know about everyone else but I have died ONLY in 2 situations and none of them were because the fights were tough:
1) when the mobs lock onto my character and unrealistically hit me from angles and distances (no lagging) that make no sense while im kiting them, and
2) when i get sick of hop in and out of telegraph areas and its so annoying i just dont care anymore and just stand still spamming keys to end the fight (win or lose) as quick as possible.
IMO (In My Opinion) focusing on Telegraphs instead of actual combat mechanics is not a cool feature, just a tedious one.
i wont say you are insane but i say you are not exactly right in that comparison with DS. In Dark Souls you can stand right in front of any enemy and if you time your dodge right the attack will not hit you. In WS, on the other hand, no matter where you stand you WILL get hit if you dont move outside of the telegraph no matter how many times you dodge. It is not the same thing. I wish mmorpgs developed those DS combat mechanics. Instead we get (even with more action based combat) that tab target mechanic of lockin onto enemies so every attack will hit the target (or you) even if you visually dodge the swing of the weapon. Under the hood the visual animations of the combat itself mean nothing, and that is lame.
EDIT:
lol