I disagree that's why you are in this, in my opinion you are in this to support catering to cries the "casual" player is making, and are against anything exclusively designed for hardcore players.
All graphs/charts aside, the entire reason you replied to Guy, was to get the little "jab" in that "subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons..." and tried to back that up with "see, Wrath had the highest numbers, so I'm right".
It sure looks looks like an agenda to me. It was a nitpick technicality where he was wrong, just to be able to take a shot at "hardcores".
The entire game up to that point is training you for the dungeons, the only thing I think you really need to know that they DO NOT really tell you is that if you interrupt an enemy WHILE they are casting an ability, their health bar will turn purple indicating that they are taking additional damage. Knowing that would really help new players out in dungeons. Otherwise I think the game does a good job of preparing you and if you expect to walk in a just down shit without having to figure anything out or at the very least do a little research then perhaps Adventures would be more your* speed.
*Your* is not directed at the OP but rather the person who thinks they should be able to down the first few dungeons without any thought or practice.
Well let's see games been out what... 9 days(Yes I know about the beta's and the headstart)! People need time before you'll get a group that won't wipe, and honestly monsters in the world don't do enough Damage to actually make you want to dodge out of them which seems connected to what your saying because dungeon mobs hit harder therefore you shouldn't stand in the fire! If those world monsters hit harder with their abilities then people would gttfo of those telegraphs. Wow really made their mobs easy enough to where you could just grab a huge mob of monsters and AOEWTFBBQ EVERYTHING which is why it's boring but I still think you gotta give it time before screaming NERF!
I agree, should be nerfed. The public outcry is enough to warrant a decrease in difficulty. Same as ESO fanboys who wrote off the complaints but could never win the battle against the onslaught of complainers.
Wildstar needs to nerf the dungeons, not because they are too hard or people are lazy, but because that is what people want. It will hurt this game. If a leveling dungeon absolutely requires you to be in a guild and actively group with people and voicechat and coordinate, then its just too much work for a level 20 dungeon that certainly doesn't drop epic loot or anything. Save it for the endgame, damn I just want to run a dungeon with some people and can't even get past the first boss, its stupid.
Being dps I have to wait another 30 mins everytime we lose a tank or healer, its not fun its quite the opposite actually. It's too serious for leveling content.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
I disagree that's why you are in this, in my opinion you are in this to support catering to cries the "casual" player is making, and are against anything exclusively designed for hardcore players.
All graphs/charts aside, the entire reason you replied to Guy, was to get the little "jab" in that "subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons..." and tried to back that up with "see, Wrath had the highest numbers, so I'm right".
It sure looks looks like an agenda to me. It was a nitpick technicality where he was wrong, just to be able to take a shot at "hardcores".
So, iv repeatedly said in this very same thread that Carbine would be dumb to nerf anything, yet your response to me literally proving every single one of your points wrong with fact sources, including your inaccurate MS paint made graphs you pasted in, is to simply accuse me of being in the camp of people calling for nerfs?
If a leveling dungeon absolutely requires you to be in a guild and actively group with people and voicechat and coordinate, then its just too much work for a level 20 dungeon that certainly doesn't drop epic loot or anything.
What's the point in doing a level 20 Dungeon over and over again?
I'll get the feeling some games aren't meant to be "hardcore". Did you ever complain about the "difficulty" in games like Super Meat Boy, Flappybird, Dark Souls etc.?
I feel you are basing the original argument on the assumption that all content is meant to be for everyone. Wildstar has made it very clear that is not the case.
The whole game has layered difficulty and to me, dungeons are at the end of the spectrum. Just like PvP battlegrounds won't appeal to many, neither will dungeons. I've been in a group with a guy yesterday and after finishing the dungeon, he said "This is too much effort, I think I'll leave dungeons for later."
I think that is perfectly fine. Dungeons are there to cater to those who want that extra difficulty and they do that perfectly. I enjoy an extra challenge and many other MMOs on the market don't give you that challenge until the very endgame.
When it comes to learning the key mechanics needed to overcome the dungeons, Wildstar has also made it clear that they are teaching those to the players over the entire course of the game. I think the telegraphs get progressively more stronger and if you encounter some of the "veteran" monsters in the world, it is sort of a dumbed down dungeon encounter. If you look at the game progression as layered content, then it becomes clearer what the reasoning behind the difficulty of the dungeons was.
Perhaps the level 20 dungeon is a little too harsh - I've struggled myself and many other experienced MMO players have too. That said, it gives me personally that little challange that pushes me further. By doing so, I don't feel the need to rush in levels. In other MMOs, I often felt that the leveling process is far too easy for me and the only way to enjoy a difficulty that would test me would be to rush through the content to reach endgame. By giving me the option to encounter that at level 20, I am much happier to progress through levels at my own pace.
When all is said and done, I think the dungeons are the right difficulty. I am happy to make and effort and am happy that other players have to make an effort too, starting with the first dungeon. For those who are not experienced enough to delve into that, they can either adapt and learn - or they can simply do the open dungeons / veteran monsters in the open world. In a way it splits up the playerbase a little, hopefully leaving only like-minded individuals doing dungeons, which I am fine with.
I feel you are basing the original argument on the assumption that all content is meant to be for everyone. Wildstar has made it very clear that is not the case.
The whole game has layered difficulty and to me, dungeons are at the end of the spectrum. Just like PvP battlegrounds won't appeal to many, neither will dungeons. I've been in a group with a guy yesterday and after finishing the dungeon, he said "This is too much effort, I think I'll leave dungeons for later."
I think that is perfectly fine. Dungeons are there to cater to those who want that extra difficulty and they do that perfectly. I enjoy an extra challenge and many other MMOs on the market don't give you that challenge until the very endgame.
When it comes to learning the key mechanics needed to overcome the dungeons, Wildstar has also made it clear that they are teaching those to the players over the entire course of the game. I think the telegraphs get progressively more stronger and if you encounter some of the "veteran" monsters in the world, it is sort of a dumbed down dungeon encounter. If you look at the game progression as layered content, then it becomes clearer what the reasoning behind the difficulty of the dungeons was.
Perhaps the level 20 dungeon is a little too harsh - I've struggled myself and many other experienced MMO players have too. That said, it gives me personally that little challange that pushes me further. By doing so, I don't feel the need to rush in levels. In other MMOs, I often felt that the leveling process is far too easy for me and the only way to enjoy a difficulty that would test me would be to rush through the content to reach endgame. By giving me the option to encounter that at level 20, I am much happier to progress through levels at my own pace.
When all is said and done, I think the dungeons are the right difficulty. I am happy to make and effort and am happy that other players have to make an effort too, starting with the first dungeon. For those who are not experienced enough to delve into that, they can either adapt and learn - or they can simply do the open dungeons / veteran monsters in the open world. In a way it splits up the playerbase a little, hopefully leaving only like-minded individuals doing dungeons, which I am fine with.
I think that is all well and true, I just don't know if that is best for me and my playstyle, and not the best for the game business-wise. I love the battlegrounds and love PvP, but the only instanced PvE group content is on high difficulty, excluding all casuals or first time mmo players. I think that is bad design, but many would argue that. I think the first adventure was perfect difficulty. You need to pay attention, use proper mechanics, but it was just a bit more forgiving. It was actually fun. In other MMO's there is always a challenge for these hardcore players, nobody roflstomps the best bosses out there on the highest difficulty in these games. Wildstar completely says to casual players "oh well, play another game or quest" sounds like ESO "quests are the only way to level", casual people won't be able to enjoy the game they wish to play their own way.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
the only instanced PvE group content is on high difficulty, excluding all casuals or first time mmo players. Casual people won't be able to enjoy the game they wish to play their own way.
Why are you speaking for everyone else? I have pugged and completed both level 20 dungeons several times, I am not in a guild and I did not use voice chat any of those times.
Edit - yes I have been in groups that wiped and quit, I have also been in groups that wiped and succeeded, there are plenty of options and ways to increase your chances to succeed, if you can't be bothered then that's your choice.
me literally proving every single one of your points wrong with fact sources?
Do you happen to have a source link from Blizzard saying that the drop in Cata subs was due to them making the dungeons hard again? I have looked but I can't find that one.
"WoW's net subscibers did not decline at all during Wotlk. The proof backing this up is overwhelming, why do people keep implying/stating otherwise? Yes, it didnt grow as many subs compared to past xpacs(1.5 mil, is still pretty amaizing), but it certainly didnt lose any."
The main thing is the last two quarters were flat - and previously they were growing every single quarter. So if you look at it graphically its like the hit the top of the mountain and now they are rolling downhill. The nerfs didn't work. I'd expect a whole lot more losses with the current WoW setup..
There is tons of challenge in WoW - but its not structured in a way where players will want to do them. Getting the same gear with slighty better numbers is a far cry from getting unique gear with superior stats and fighting exclusive bosses.
So you can see why some would find it a little annoying that people want Wildstar to copy modern WoW. Why? Modern WoW is far less successful. Its not even successfull at being anti-elitist and anti progression. Its stuck in the middle - a 'old school' game sloppily redesigned into a piss poor version of GW2.
Its a sad fate for one of the best MMOs ever. But then again I suppose Everquest - the most loved game around here suffered a simliar fall from grace..
Wildstar is an attempt to bring back the glory days of WoW - big raids - a gear progression - attunements. Its basically a copy of BC WoW from a advancement standpoint. You have to admit thats a fine game to copy..
Originally posted by Deddmeat They'll gain casuals who have limited interest in the game due to their short playing time, may be looking for the next game, free trial and f2p since they play short amount of time.I play for hours a day and would have said I was casual, then read that casuals were more people who play for short snatches of time
And yet, despite your heroic theorycrafting, those titles catering to casuals are the most successful.
This is about players not used to have to work for anything anymore. People today dont want to work to get anything or anywere. They are raised with parents who just give them what they want, and tell them that they are perfect in every way.
I think its fine that Wildstar has some dificulty. That you actually have to work a little to get things done.
What you might learn from actually trying to complete "the challenges", is that the reward feels so much better afterwards. You may actually fell something called, acomplishment.
If im not making any sence, its either because im danish or because you are very young.
Originally posted by eluiander This is about players not used to have to work for anything anymore. People today dont want to work to get anything or anywere. They are raised with parents who just give them what they want, and tell them that they are perfect in every way.I think its fine that Wildstar has some dificulty. That you actually have to work a little to get things done.What you might learn from actually trying to complete "the challenges", is that the reward feels so much better afterwards. You may actually fell something called, acomplishment.If im not making any sence, its either because im danish or because you are very young.
...or people just want to have fun and killing stuff is more fun than dying.
Your danish horse is too high high horse.... or because you are very young/old.
Originally posted by Skymourne Wildstar is not for you then. Let us have our difficulty.
No one is trying to take away anything from you, just people are pointing out that without casuals, any game will have difficult time surviving on market(especially with a budget of WS).
There is no point trying to leave out casual crowd out of your business unless you are lacking any business sense.
"No one is trying to take away anything from you, just people are pointing out that without casuals, any game will have difficult time surviving on market(especially with a budget of WS).
There is no point trying to leave out casual crowd out of your business unless you are lacking any business sense."
They do not need to change their philosophy to appeal to casuals. Again Blizzard was more successfull when it was more elitist.
me literally proving every single one of your points wrong with fact sources?
Do you happen to have a source link from Blizzard saying that the drop in Cata subs was due to them making the dungeons hard again? I have looked but I can't find that one.
Thats not one of your points that I proved wrong. Please stop quoting me while changing the subject.
Originally posted by Robokapp at 10 times the labor and raw materials and machine uptime? or do these parts come out of thin air? back to school you go.
Good lord...
If I make a profit of 1 USD off 1 part, I make 5 bucks in case 1) and 45 bucks in case 2).
Okay, of we are talking a better explanation of dungeon mechanics and interrupts, I totally agree. These dungeons can be demanding and people are not used to it with all the easy dungeons out there in other MMOs...
Thats not one of your points that I proved wrong. Please stop quoting me while changing the subject.
You're right, you didn't prove that wrong. Again, the original beef was that you nitpicked a tiny sentence out of Guy's long reply, and you did it just to take a jab at hardcore players. You could have just as easily posted the exact same nitpick comment, but without the jab at hardcore players....but you didn't. Your quote "Im only in this calling out inaccuracies." ...right.
Please stop quoting me while trying to deflect the original reason I replied, as I always did agree that you were 100% right about Wrath "technically" having higher numbers. That was never Guy's point, he simply worded that sentence incorrectly and you jumped on it.
Comments
I disagree that's why you are in this, in my opinion you are in this to support catering to cries the "casual" player is making, and are against anything exclusively designed for hardcore players.
All graphs/charts aside, the entire reason you replied to Guy, was to get the little "jab" in that "subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons..." and tried to back that up with "see, Wrath had the highest numbers, so I'm right".
It sure looks looks like an agenda to me. It was a nitpick technicality where he was wrong, just to be able to take a shot at "hardcores".
The entire game up to that point is training you for the dungeons, the only thing I think you really need to know that they DO NOT really tell you is that if you interrupt an enemy WHILE they are casting an ability, their health bar will turn purple indicating that they are taking additional damage. Knowing that would really help new players out in dungeons. Otherwise I think the game does a good job of preparing you and if you expect to walk in a just down shit without having to figure anything out or at the very least do a little research then perhaps Adventures would be more your* speed.
*Your* is not directed at the OP but rather the person who thinks they should be able to down the first few dungeons without any thought or practice.
I agree, should be nerfed. The public outcry is enough to warrant a decrease in difficulty. Same as ESO fanboys who wrote off the complaints but could never win the battle against the onslaught of complainers.
Wildstar needs to nerf the dungeons, not because they are too hard or people are lazy, but because that is what people want. It will hurt this game. If a leveling dungeon absolutely requires you to be in a guild and actively group with people and voicechat and coordinate, then its just too much work for a level 20 dungeon that certainly doesn't drop epic loot or anything. Save it for the endgame, damn I just want to run a dungeon with some people and can't even get past the first boss, its stupid.
Being dps I have to wait another 30 mins everytime we lose a tank or healer, its not fun its quite the opposite actually. It's too serious for leveling content.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
So, iv repeatedly said in this very same thread that Carbine would be dumb to nerf anything, yet your response to me literally proving every single one of your points wrong with fact sources, including your inaccurate MS paint made graphs you pasted in, is to simply accuse me of being in the camp of people calling for nerfs?
Got it.
What's the point in doing a level 20 Dungeon over and over again?
I'll get the feeling some games aren't meant to be "hardcore". Did you ever complain about the "difficulty" in games like Super Meat Boy, Flappybird, Dark Souls etc.?
I feel you are basing the original argument on the assumption that all content is meant to be for everyone. Wildstar has made it very clear that is not the case.
The whole game has layered difficulty and to me, dungeons are at the end of the spectrum. Just like PvP battlegrounds won't appeal to many, neither will dungeons. I've been in a group with a guy yesterday and after finishing the dungeon, he said "This is too much effort, I think I'll leave dungeons for later."
I think that is perfectly fine. Dungeons are there to cater to those who want that extra difficulty and they do that perfectly. I enjoy an extra challenge and many other MMOs on the market don't give you that challenge until the very endgame.
When it comes to learning the key mechanics needed to overcome the dungeons, Wildstar has also made it clear that they are teaching those to the players over the entire course of the game. I think the telegraphs get progressively more stronger and if you encounter some of the "veteran" monsters in the world, it is sort of a dumbed down dungeon encounter. If you look at the game progression as layered content, then it becomes clearer what the reasoning behind the difficulty of the dungeons was.
Perhaps the level 20 dungeon is a little too harsh - I've struggled myself and many other experienced MMO players have too. That said, it gives me personally that little challange that pushes me further. By doing so, I don't feel the need to rush in levels. In other MMOs, I often felt that the leveling process is far too easy for me and the only way to enjoy a difficulty that would test me would be to rush through the content to reach endgame. By giving me the option to encounter that at level 20, I am much happier to progress through levels at my own pace.
When all is said and done, I think the dungeons are the right difficulty. I am happy to make and effort and am happy that other players have to make an effort too, starting with the first dungeon. For those who are not experienced enough to delve into that, they can either adapt and learn - or they can simply do the open dungeons / veteran monsters in the open world. In a way it splits up the playerbase a little, hopefully leaving only like-minded individuals doing dungeons, which I am fine with.
I think that is all well and true, I just don't know if that is best for me and my playstyle, and not the best for the game business-wise. I love the battlegrounds and love PvP, but the only instanced PvE group content is on high difficulty, excluding all casuals or first time mmo players. I think that is bad design, but many would argue that. I think the first adventure was perfect difficulty. You need to pay attention, use proper mechanics, but it was just a bit more forgiving. It was actually fun. In other MMO's there is always a challenge for these hardcore players, nobody roflstomps the best bosses out there on the highest difficulty in these games. Wildstar completely says to casual players "oh well, play another game or quest" sounds like ESO "quests are the only way to level", casual people won't be able to enjoy the game they wish to play their own way.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Why are you speaking for everyone else? I have pugged and completed both level 20 dungeons several times, I am not in a guild and I did not use voice chat any of those times.
Edit - yes I have been in groups that wiped and quit, I have also been in groups that wiped and succeeded, there are plenty of options and ways to increase your chances to succeed, if you can't be bothered then that's your choice.
Do you happen to have a source link from Blizzard saying that the drop in Cata subs was due to them making the dungeons hard again? I have looked but I can't find that one.
"WoW's net subscibers did not decline at all during Wotlk. The proof backing this up is overwhelming, why do people keep implying/stating otherwise? Yes, it didnt grow as many subs compared to past xpacs(1.5 mil, is still pretty amaizing), but it certainly didnt lose any."
The main thing is the last two quarters were flat - and previously they were growing every single quarter. So if you look at it graphically its like the hit the top of the mountain and now they are rolling downhill. The nerfs didn't work. I'd expect a whole lot more losses with the current WoW setup..
There is tons of challenge in WoW - but its not structured in a way where players will want to do them. Getting the same gear with slighty better numbers is a far cry from getting unique gear with superior stats and fighting exclusive bosses.
So you can see why some would find it a little annoying that people want Wildstar to copy modern WoW. Why? Modern WoW is far less successful. Its not even successfull at being anti-elitist and anti progression. Its stuck in the middle - a 'old school' game sloppily redesigned into a piss poor version of GW2.
Its a sad fate for one of the best MMOs ever. But then again I suppose Everquest - the most loved game around here suffered a simliar fall from grace..
Wildstar is an attempt to bring back the glory days of WoW - big raids - a gear progression - attunements. Its basically a copy of BC WoW from a advancement standpoint. You have to admit thats a fine game to copy..
And yet, despite your heroic theorycrafting, those titles catering to casuals are the most successful.
Why so much denial...?
/critical triple facepalm!
This is about players not used to have to work for anything anymore. People today dont want to work to get anything or anywere. They are raised with parents who just give them what they want, and tell them that they are perfect in every way.
I think its fine that Wildstar has some dificulty. That you actually have to work a little to get things done.
What you might learn from actually trying to complete "the challenges", is that the reward feels so much better afterwards. You may actually fell something called, acomplishment.
If im not making any sence, its either because im danish or because you are very young.
...or people just want to have fun and killing stuff is more fun than dying.
Your danish horse is too high high horse.... or because you are very young/old.
Wildstar is not for you then. Let us have our difficulty.
No one is trying to take away anything from you, just people are pointing out that without casuals, any game will have difficult time surviving on market(especially with a budget of WS).
There is no point trying to leave out casual crowd out of your business unless you are lacking any business sense.
First one is failed business, the other one is the one making money.
Except second one makes almost 10 times more money.
You know, money to pay for debts for development and ongoing expenses and....gasp....even profit.
If you need 30 to just stay in business....
"No one is trying to take away anything from you, just people are pointing out that without casuals, any game will have difficult time surviving on market(especially with a budget of WS).
There is no point trying to leave out casual crowd out of your business unless you are lacking any business sense."
They do not need to change their philosophy to appeal to casuals. Again Blizzard was more successfull when it was more elitist.
Nope, exact same resources, one caters to hardcore other to casuals.
I know its a hard concept for you to grasp. People go to school for long time to get that stuff, sorry. Its above you.
And then you have a game like WoW which has 50/1100 and wipes floor with everyone else.
Thats not one of your points that I proved wrong. Please stop quoting me while changing the subject.
Good lord...
If I make a profit of 1 USD off 1 part, I make 5 bucks in case 1) and 45 bucks in case 2).
You're right, you didn't prove that wrong. Again, the original beef was that you nitpicked a tiny sentence out of Guy's long reply, and you did it just to take a jab at hardcore players. You could have just as easily posted the exact same nitpick comment, but without the jab at hardcore players....but you didn't. Your quote "Im only in this calling out inaccuracies." ...right.
Please stop quoting me while trying to deflect the original reason I replied, as I always did agree that you were 100% right about Wrath "technically" having higher numbers. That was never Guy's point, he simply worded that sentence incorrectly and you jumped on it.