Originally posted by Azzudyen I do not see how WoW can be #3 on Casual list and then turn around and be in top 5 of Hardcore list. Maybe a definition of Casual and Hardcore needed to be explained.
It can't because there is no such thing but people still try.
Hmm, wouldn't call any of those MMOs "hardcore". They all can be played casually if you desire to do so. But I don't believe in this hardcore/casual seperation anyway.
I considered TSW quite an investment of time and effort. a bit of a learning curve with abilities and some bosses were nearly impossible. but it did kind of dry up at end game. still, lots of fond memories for tsw. then there Defiance... anyone gone back and played that with the scaling changes? was so pleased with the difficulty of that game.
M59: if my memory is right, this game was released before UO, Pkers are born here then most move to UO later on.
AC/DArktide: hardest game I ever played, FPS capabilities, lost lots of resources when defeated, heavy death penalty, corpse runs, one on one fights that last one hour or more, and no safe zone.
Shadowbane: this game introduced pvp in another level-player run cities and businesses, sieging, heavy death penalty but can bind 3 items, thieves can steal your items before the a fight, massive raids, and some classes can attack by air.
Never got interested with EQ and DOAC, because of pvp restriction didn't play them.
my two pesos.
MMORPG games played: M59-2 years, AC/Darktide-5 years,Shadowbane-3 years, SWG-1 year, WOW-1 year, and GW1-4 years.
I agree vanilla FFXI should definitely be in there MUCH harder than EQ1 but i guess in some ways EQ1 was similar to FFXI but not as much depth.
It wasn't harder, but you could say it was more hardcore. It belongs on this list. Any game that is considered 'hardcore' only because of open world PvP doesnt belong on the list. To me its apples and oranges. Just make a list for top 5 open world PvP games instead.
First I don't feel Sci Fi and fantasy mmorgs should be on the same list as they are different genres. What passes for a Sci Fi mmorg tends to be more like a mmfps. As such I would restrict the list to fantasy mmorgs only and order them as follows:
1) DAoC
2) EQ
3) UO
4) EQ2 (fast to level but end raids challenge are exactly that and end content is all raid)
5) Not really a 5th in existence as everything after the above 4 has been nothing but a variation of preexisting formats with a little more polish and caters more to solo play
Don't really care who agrees or doesn't. We are all still waiting for some game to take the crowns from the top two on the list and noone has yet. The fools claiming WoW was hard is a total joke as it was the most solo catering mmo ever made.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Im shocked WoW didnt make that list, this is a game where the devs admit that only about 1% of the players see all the content.
Yes but does only 1% of the content make the game Hardcore? Also a hardcore game usually has severe ramifications for dying, wow does not have that.
meaning, I agree wholeheartedly with numbers 4-1... and the #1 is absolutely indisputable... but i would have replaced DAOC with L2 on the list.
In its heyday L2 was as hardcore as you can get. you had to do serious work just to get to the sieges, and the sieges were absolutely nuts.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I will keep arguing for Mabinogi. The fact that it is on the "casual" list is totally facepalm-worthy and shows a complete lack of knowledge for the game. You heard me author. Go and get your facepalm on.
I mean you put EVE on the hardcore list which has a way easier learning curve... If logging on and clicking a couple buttons to increase a couple skills and then logging off is hardcore then I guess EVE is super hardcore lol
To all the posts pointing out "This game Y is more hardcore then game X on the list" remember that he said "Now let’s take the time appreciate the top 5 best hardcore MMORPGs of today and yesteryear." These aren't the most hardcore mmo's but the best of the hardcore mmo's in the authors opinion.
I agree with most of this list but not with DAoC ironically enough. To me hardcore means that you have a really nasty death penalty and the game is challenging at the same time. It is hard to max out and your hand is not held so a lot has to be figured out on your own. For best hardcore games, I would say that I agree with all the others but would replace DAoC with AO.
DAoC to me actually had some features that made it easier than AO actually. For one, you really risked very little if you died in PvP in the former. In AO, if you died in PvP, your body could be looted of certain items including those you forgot to insure. In classic AO if you died, you lost all uninsured xp though thankfully you could not delevel.
DAoC got rid of most aggro trains in its dungeons whereas AO had some notorious ones. The aggro could be tough especially outdoors: pulling one mob type could aggro the entire lot that would then steamroll anyone who was around whether they were in your group or not. The only way to get rid of them was to zone and with large zones that was sometimes quite hard to do.
And then there was the arcane art of figuring out how to build your character with the huge amount of skills available. There were no guides, no instructions, nothing at all to help out at first. It was only through trial and error that players figured out how to build decent characters. Worse yet, some items had really bizarre requirements on them so you had to figure out what to get, where to get it, what to avoid. I played just a bit after release and completely screwed up my first couple of characters. In comparison it was much harder to screw up DAoC characters.
There were many other hardcore elements to classic Rubi-Ka: huge and difficult raids, difficult dungeons, huge time sinks, and an overall steep learning curve. It had many of EQ1's difficult elements actually.
Getting back to the article, I would swap EVE and UO. When UO had no Trammel, I think it was virtually as hardcore as you could get outside of having permanent death of a character.
FFXI should definitely be on the list. I don't know if I would call it more difficult then EQ. There are some real horror stories about EQ. People would die in places and not be able to recover their corpse. It's a close call. FFXI, in general, was harder to level and craft.
As a past player of EQ, Eve, and UO, I totally agree with this list. Of course games of today have difficult encounters; but this article emphasizes the world in its entirety. if the game world, itself, is difficult to get around in and survive, then the game deserves to be called hardcore. Perhaps Asian grinders were left out of the list, which is why Lineage, etc., isn't listed.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Darkage of Camelot and Everquest are basically theme parks.
At it's launch DAoC had maybe 10 quests total. only way to advance was to grind thousands and thousands of mobs. hardly the follow the quest breadcrumbs game it became in it's later years
don't get me wrong here the game was never a sandbox and it was not as bad a L2 for the last ten levels but it was one grindy SOB
What passes for a Sci Fi mmorg tends to be more like a mmfps.
EVE will never, ever be confused with a mmfps. It definitely deserves to be #1 on this list, sci-fi or not.
Razeekster: "If logging on and clicking a couple buttons to increase a couple skills and then logging off is hardcore then I guess EVE is super hardcore lol"
If that's what you think EVE is, then you really didn't play it. And if you did, and still feel that way, it explains why you were so bad at it. Don't know why you added "lol" at the end of your comment, because the joke is on you.
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair. Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D Play EVE for free for 21 days
i am casual player ,I playing & enjoying in Eve without any limitations
I'm mining as I write this... Well, my retriever is mining whilst being defended from the periodic rat respawn by drones. My actual input into the process is minimal at best.
Very hardcore, that.
Sure, you can play Eve "hardcore", however one cares to define that, but, as with the much vaunted "learning curve" (primarily a function of the worst UI in MMO history, but I digress...), for the most part Eve's "hardcore" nature is more a matter of overblown reputation than an actual reflection of most player's day-to-day in-game lives, which are mostly a matter of some of the most boring PvE ever created ground out (or skipped via Plexing) to pay for the occasional somewhat exciting battle, the outcome of which was, for the most part, decided the moment you undocked.
Not that there's anything wrong with any of that, it's just that the whole "hardcore" thing is, at it's base, idiotic e-peening. Most games can be played "hardcore" if one wishes, but most gamers, for better or ill, have better things to do with their lives.
Comments
And one again... no one remember Neocron...
EVE in hardcore top list ahahahah you r very funny ! (and that's sad for the mmo world futur...)
I agree with the most of this but eve ? There are so many games more hardcore than eve online such as conan or the secret world.
I agree UO was really hardcore before Trammel comming, and also very fun !
I also like EVE Online but it's only half hardcore.
And to say a mmo is hardcore you really need to loose a lot when you die, not just XP, or money, or time.
There is also another 2 games that can really be called "Hardcore MMO"
--------------------
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Gangs of Space > Indie MMO Shmup Roguelike > Join Alpha : BEE7E-3B768-7626A-2A740
lmfaorofl
then there Defiance... anyone gone back and played that with the scaling changes? was so pleased with the difficulty of that game.
There are mmorpg games missing in these list:
M59: if my memory is right, this game was released before UO, Pkers are born here then most move to UO later on.
AC/DArktide: hardest game I ever played, FPS capabilities, lost lots of resources when defeated, heavy death penalty, corpse runs, one on one fights that last one hour or more, and no safe zone.
Shadowbane: this game introduced pvp in another level-player run cities and businesses, sieging, heavy death penalty but can bind 3 items, thieves can steal your items before the a fight, massive raids, and some classes can attack by air.
Never got interested with EQ and DOAC, because of pvp restriction didn't play them.
my two pesos.
MMORPG games played: M59-2 years, AC/Darktide-5 years,Shadowbane-3 years, SWG-1 year, WOW-1 year, and GW1-4 years.
It wasn't harder, but you could say it was more hardcore. It belongs on this list. Any game that is considered 'hardcore' only because of open world PvP doesnt belong on the list. To me its apples and oranges. Just make a list for top 5 open world PvP games instead.
First I don't feel Sci Fi and fantasy mmorgs should be on the same list as they are different genres. What passes for a Sci Fi mmorg tends to be more like a mmfps. As such I would restrict the list to fantasy mmorgs only and order them as follows:
1) DAoC
2) EQ
3) UO
4) EQ2 (fast to level but end raids challenge are exactly that and end content is all raid)
5) Not really a 5th in existence as everything after the above 4 has been nothing but a variation of preexisting formats with a little more polish and caters more to solo play
Don't really care who agrees or doesn't. We are all still waiting for some game to take the crowns from the top two on the list and noone has yet. The fools claiming WoW was hard is a total joke as it was the most solo catering mmo ever made.
Yes but does only 1% of the content make the game Hardcore? Also a hardcore game usually has severe ramifications for dying, wow does not have that.
I give this list a 4/5 (solid job!).
meaning, I agree wholeheartedly with numbers 4-1... and the #1 is absolutely indisputable... but i would have replaced DAOC with L2 on the list.
In its heyday L2 was as hardcore as you can get. you had to do serious work just to get to the sieges, and the sieges were absolutely nuts.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I will keep arguing for Mabinogi. The fact that it is on the "casual" list is totally facepalm-worthy and shows a complete lack of knowledge for the game. You heard me author. Go and get your facepalm on.
I mean you put EVE on the hardcore list which has a way easier learning curve... If logging on and clicking a couple buttons to increase a couple skills and then logging off is hardcore then I guess EVE is super hardcore lol
Smile
I agree with most of this list but not with DAoC ironically enough. To me hardcore means that you have a really nasty death penalty and the game is challenging at the same time. It is hard to max out and your hand is not held so a lot has to be figured out on your own. For best hardcore games, I would say that I agree with all the others but would replace DAoC with AO.
DAoC to me actually had some features that made it easier than AO actually. For one, you really risked very little if you died in PvP in the former. In AO, if you died in PvP, your body could be looted of certain items including those you forgot to insure. In classic AO if you died, you lost all uninsured xp though thankfully you could not delevel.
DAoC got rid of most aggro trains in its dungeons whereas AO had some notorious ones. The aggro could be tough especially outdoors: pulling one mob type could aggro the entire lot that would then steamroll anyone who was around whether they were in your group or not. The only way to get rid of them was to zone and with large zones that was sometimes quite hard to do.
And then there was the arcane art of figuring out how to build your character with the huge amount of skills available. There were no guides, no instructions, nothing at all to help out at first. It was only through trial and error that players figured out how to build decent characters. Worse yet, some items had really bizarre requirements on them so you had to figure out what to get, where to get it, what to avoid. I played just a bit after release and completely screwed up my first couple of characters. In comparison it was much harder to screw up DAoC characters.
There were many other hardcore elements to classic Rubi-Ka: huge and difficult raids, difficult dungeons, huge time sinks, and an overall steep learning curve. It had many of EQ1's difficult elements actually.
Getting back to the article, I would swap EVE and UO. When UO had no Trammel, I think it was virtually as hardcore as you could get outside of having permanent death of a character.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Maybe because it was only arround for the blink of an eye.
Granted, it had some very fun and interesting aspects..and a lot of issues, and sillyness (oh no, AoE, lets stack !)
At it's launch DAoC had maybe 10 quests total. only way to advance was to grind thousands and thousands of mobs. hardly the follow the quest breadcrumbs game it became in it's later years
don't get me wrong here the game was never a sandbox and it was not as bad a L2 for the last ten levels but it was one grindy SOB
I miss DAoC
EVE will never, ever be confused with a mmfps. It definitely deserves to be #1 on this list, sci-fi or not.
Razeekster: "If logging on and clicking a couple buttons to increase a couple skills and then logging off is hardcore then I guess EVE is super hardcore lol"
They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
Play EVE for free for 21 days
I'm mining as I write this... Well, my retriever is mining whilst being defended from the periodic rat respawn by drones. My actual input into the process is minimal at best.
Very hardcore, that.
Sure, you can play Eve "hardcore", however one cares to define that, but, as with the much vaunted "learning curve" (primarily a function of the worst UI in MMO history, but I digress...), for the most part Eve's "hardcore" nature is more a matter of overblown reputation than an actual reflection of most player's day-to-day in-game lives, which are mostly a matter of some of the most boring PvE ever created ground out (or skipped via Plexing) to pay for the occasional somewhat exciting battle, the outcome of which was, for the most part, decided the moment you undocked.
Not that there's anything wrong with any of that, it's just that the whole "hardcore" thing is, at it's base, idiotic e-peening. Most games can be played "hardcore" if one wishes, but most gamers, for better or ill, have better things to do with their lives.