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A great base game let down by the difficulty level + lack of stuff to do at cap.

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  • BruhzaBruhza Member UncommonPosts: 391
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    This touches on another Corruption introduced by late blizzard - its only fun if you complete the instance and kill all boses. What other game genres are there where a game is only fun if you complete it? Why do people feel entitled to kill everything, and why does it matter so much now - an addiction to constant rewards perhaps?

    Yeah, most MMO's anymore feel like a mindless job. There are a few that have kept the difficulty but they are normally not as popular. 

     

    I wonder where the MMO genre would be now if they didn't take that turn towards instant gratification. 

     

     

  • korent1991korent1991 Member UncommonPosts: 1,364
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by nbtscan
    I don't see how it's a mismatch.  This game was touted as a game for hardcore 20 and 40 man raids.  It shouldn't be a big surprise when people start reaching max level that Carbine is going to start bleeding a lot of subs because people simply aren't good enough to do that content.

    Good enough or stupid enough?

    that's a well made point.

    When I was in highschool I used to play games HC and in those games there was room for WOW HC raiding in vanilla and TBC, but now I don't have the time nor the will do dedicate that much time to something that's supposed to be my escape from reality and something where I'm having fun. Not certanly something that's my 2nd job xD

    Now there's people who do that and that's the way they're having fun, to each their own. It just means that being a casual player in this game will not get you far in terms of PvE progression and that's just fine if you ask me because the sence of reward for those who do play is that much bigger (and that's kinda the point).

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • SkymourneSkymourne Member UncommonPosts: 380
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
     

    None of you answered Distopia's question. Not one. He asked how offering a non-hardcore option would ruin the hardcore for you. I will add one to that. How would adding a non-hardcore option to the progression path, be it slower or what not, ruin the hardcore progression path? The final question is, do you think there are enough hardcore people to keep the doors open and the content updates coming? I don't.

    Because then it would be just like WoW and i'm willing to bet that a great deal of people playing Wildstar do not want that.  Just another damn game that got destroyed.  There would be multiple tiers and "LFR", along with multiple levels of gear.  Now, if Carbine decides to pull something magical out of their asses, and makes some solo or small group content, outside of dungeons, that appease the casual side of the playerbase, then we might have something here.  But that won't happen.  Why?

    Because the casual crowd will complain, relentlessly, until our ears and eyes bleed, that their gear from that content isn't comparable to the gear the raiders are in and they will not be happy until it is.  Threats, quitting, blah blah blah.  So, to make sure none of that matters?  Carbine says "fuck them" right off the bat.  If we can manage about 200k subs without them, we'll be just fine.  

  • CrusadesCrusades Member Posts: 480
    I'm casual - I'm not going to complain, I will just take my ball of money and go home. You can't ask for much more than that.
  • nennafirnennafir Member UncommonPosts: 313
    Originally posted by Wicoa

     

    Good luck once you hit cap (to which I was one of the slowest amongst my friends with job, family and grass to mow).  The servers I am on are full of casual semi-casual guilds.

    The problems.:

    PvE Endgame.  its all about Gold Medals, it is not worth running dungeons/adventures unless you are aiming for gold.  Thats how you get the good loot.  The problem is the majority of the time there is no tracker or guide on how well your group is doing.  You NEED comms and a brain.

    Now I am down with that, problem is there is a massive mismatch between how the community is behaving towards this with the amount of casual guilds.  Trying to convince pugs to care is an uphill struggle, semi to hc guilds are very few and usually closed off.

    PvP 2 BGs.. Game is young so okay.

    This game SCREAMS fun and it is to a point and it is the most polished launch of any mmorpg I have played.  Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.  Which is not often...

    The mismatch is real and the fate of the game depends on how carbine addresses this problem.  Hyperbole maybe or just soup for thought.

    This is just one gamers opinion whose friends are beginning to twiddle thumbs while whistling "what to do now carbine".

    +1 million

     

    I agree with you completely.

  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687

    LMAO. The difficulty level? You mean that the end game is actually challenging.
    WoW has made players soft and lazy. They dont want to put forth the effort to learn an encounter. They want to go in and faceroll it then gripe about it being to easy.

    Wildstar is the first game in Ages that at level 50 I have to much shit to do and not enough time.


    Run Veteran Adventures to get gear/rep and part of attunement.
    Run Veteran Dungeons to get gear/rep for next stage of attunement.
    Do dailies for elder gems, rep and cash.
    Do Crafting dailies to buy research schematics for higher level gear.
    PvP to get gear, mounts, Amps and Schematics.
    Do challenges to get different rewards for Decor, Dye and crafting.

    Then after all the attunement is done.. WOOT>> RAIDING>. 20man.. Then 40man..

    just not enough hours in the day.

    I will say this.

    The learning curve is high. If you like to faceroll then stand around in the capital city and play the "bounce game", then WS may not be for you. If you like a challenge then hook it up.. this shit is fun.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station 
  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Member UncommonPosts: 405

    If you don't want to feel like a special snowflake, there's always Guild Wars 2. :) 

     

    Ps: I love my mesmer, I just lost the will to care about my role in combat. Not saying trinity is end-all be-all but roles in general matter to me, be it tank, dps, heals, support or any other kind. I thank Gw2 for teaching me this, and I still keep it on my PC in case a cool patch comes out I might wanna check out. :D


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Bruhza
    Originally posted by Distopia

    To all....

    I asked a very specific question on why the hardcore players would leave in droves if others were catered to as well, I feel pretty confident saying WS's playerbase isn't only those seeking hardcore content. So everyone agrees they should be treated as second rate citizens as far as options go?

    Stop acting like you've been insulted.

     

    People simply want  a harder MMO that actually STAYS difficult. Its pride in the gear that you have earned. Feeling like you have actually accomplished something worthwhile.

     

    Carbine isn't asking you to dedicate your life to their MMO (Though you can if you want to). They are asking for you to beat the harder than normal content that they have provided. Casual does NOT equal being bad at a game, it equals not having as much time as others to play. They will still see the content, it will just take them longer. As it should be.

     

    This isn't a matter of catering to players that love hardcore content. This is a matter of keeping the difficulty there for ALL types of players who want it. There are plenty of nerfed MMO's out there that have "Flyby/instant gratification" content. We don't need anymore of those.

     

    When MMO's started to become easier, is when this genre got into the pathetic state its at now. Props to Carbine for bringing difficulty back. 

    WHo said I was insulted? I simply answered numerous posts that had the same general reply in one fell swoop. ANd I never said catering to that want is bad, I just asked why people would leave if they catered to others as well. Which no one has answered yet, I don't want WS to do anything, I don't play it...how many times must I say that?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Lol it's not a 'weird' plan, it's about design ethos and catering to a market. Is Eve weird because it doesn't have no pvp zones- no, would eve be better with no pvp zones - no. I'm I entitled to get non pvp zones because I decide to sub to eve - no.

    EVE has safe zones...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Colt47Colt47 Member UncommonPosts: 549
    The more I read into this the more it sounds like a Final Fantasy XIII level mess up.  Well, maybe not that bad of a mess up, but pretty close.  
  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,353

    IMO, for leveling Dungeons (under lvl 50 content) should have a roughly 50% chance for a PUG to complete it. Coordinated well planned guild runs and the like should be almost 90% chance of succeeding. Level 50 content can be difficult, go ahead and ramp up the difficulty. 

     

    I wanted to level via dungeons in this game but its not possible. That doesn't make me a casual though, it means I prefer a certain co-op feel to a game. 

    Right now it's a solo quest grind, with the option to get together with some people and wipe a bunch of times, spend a couple hours doing a level 20 dungeon, then back to your solo quest grind.... 

    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    I do think its somewhat funny irony for someone who chose to use the name distopia to question why a game can't cater to everyone.  

    What does my forum name have to do with asking a pretty logical question, at least IMO? Lets go back to where this started, a poster said all the people seeking challenge would leave if they catered to others, I asked why would that be the case. As offering something for others, does not remove the existence of challenging content.

    Why is that a logical question? Because hardcore raiders don't usually make up a large part of any communities player base, there are plenty of others, from those who PVP to those who craft, as well as those who casually partake. Yet they are to cater to only one segment of that current player-base, otherwise the hardcore leave? What sense does that make from a business perspective? "Hey thanks for getting us off the ground, but from here on out, you'll want to play something else, if you don't want to raid...". Is that the sales pitch here?

    But I forgot...I'm the one thinking from a self centered perspective..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NorewonNorewon Member UncommonPosts: 100

    LMAO I am sorry but its hard not to laugh when for months before the game actually came out people were complaining how easy this game was going to be due to the telegraphs, now the cries are for NERF's its to hard... Like I stated before, this game not only screams fun like the OP stated but it also screams JOIN A GUILD!!!! If not then create a circle with players that you can run with. You can add cross realm friends its not like the game is saying your screwed... its the fact that most are lazy and dont want to put forth the effort.

    Also for those crying that you cant do pre 50 dungeons so the game is fail in group aspect... I would call you a liar as I know at least 87 people in my guild who HAD to run those dungeons so at 50 they at least know some of the fights for silver/gold medals. It can be done I promise... you just can faceroll like in wow and pull the whole instance then AOE down.... 

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506

    There is no such thing as a "hard" dungeon in these types of games imo. Its simply a matter of time investment to learn strat and grind gear. I promise in 6 months players will be smoking these dungeons. Now a lot of players don't have the time or will to invest in such endeavors and so they will inevitably fall off. But once a chunk of the population starts showing up in raid gear, it will only take one group member to carry the most casual group of newbs through these supposed hard dungeons. 

    IMO, WS ultimate failing will be the complete lack of a virtual world worth living in. You hit end game and enter a lobby where you queue for w/e. A lot of players simply aren't going to stand around whistling dixie, staring at an uninspired city day in and out waiting on their queues to pop. 

    I mean, what's the point of endless hours of dungeoning for? I realise that question can be posed to any game, because its not a real thing after all. But the lack of a living breathing world reminds me of PvP in GW2. Why should I care about PvP gear if all I do with it is queue for instances... ya know? Big whoop.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Norewon

    LMAO I am sorry but its hard not to laugh when for months before the game actually came out people were complaining how easy this game was going to be due to the telegraphs, now the cries are for NERF's its to hard... Like I stated before, this game not only screams fun like the OP stated but it also screams JOIN A GUILD!!!! If not then create a circle with players that you can run with. You can add cross realm friends its not like the game is saying your screwed... its the fact that most are lazy and dont want to put forth the effort.

    Also for those crying that you cant do pre 50 dungeons so the game is fail in group aspect... I would call you a liar as I know at least 87 people in my guild who HAD to run those dungeons so at 50 they at least know some of the fights for silver/gold medals. It can be done I promise... you just can faceroll like in wow and pull the whole instance then AOE down.... 

    I do agree here, as I do remember all the "that game is too easy" posts during the first waves of beta. WHile most were ever so briefly positive about ESO.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • OminousDawnOminousDawn Member Posts: 75

     

    Let the raiders have their game.

    Variety is the spice of life.  Truth be told, if we allowed these niche games to cater to their specific niche markets then those players wouldn't be in other game forums crying to change a game that was not meant for them.  Personally, I do not like raiding at all.  So if WildStar is a raiding game, it is simply not for me and I will simply stay far, far away from it.  Fortunately for me, it's not the only game in the market.  So guess what I'm going to do?  That's right!  Play one that as closely as possible, fits my gaming preferences. 

    The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>

    ... it's called an FPS.

    Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.

  • prognarprognar Member Posts: 12

    Everyone has answered the OP's question, the game was designed to be hard...

    If you didn't do the research before playing, your the only person to blame.

    you got 30 days of game, for a standard single player price, be happy and move on...

    Like everyone else has said, get better, and find people who want to do the same content as you..

    If you can't be bothered play something else, developers will just be happy you didn't read into the fine print before playing and got an extra sub for a month...

    The game was never designed for "CASUAL PLAYERS", so there's no point in asking why there is no content designed to cater for "CASUAL PLAYERS", no-one needs to explain WHY because the devs have said from the begging this game is for HARDCORE PLAYERS.

     

    So you wasted your money...  move on.

  • Shoko_LiedShoko_Lied Member UncommonPosts: 2,193
    Originally posted by bestever
    Originally posted by Wicoa

     

    Good luck once you hit cap (to which I was one of the slowest amongst my friends with job, family and grass to mow).  The servers I am on are full of casual semi-casual guilds.

    The problems.:

    PvE Endgame.  its all about Gold Medals, it is not worth running dungeons/adventures unless you are aiming for gold.  Thats how you get the good loot.  The problem is the majority of the time there is no tracker or guide on how well your group is doing.  You NEED comms and a brain.

    Now I am down with that, problem is there is a massive mismatch between how the community is behaving towards this with the amount of casual guilds.  Trying to convince pugs to care is an uphill struggle, semi to hc guilds are very few and usually closed off.

    PvP 2 BGs.. Game is young so okay.

    This game SCREAMS fun and it is to a point and it is the most polished launch of any mmorpg I have played.  Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.  Which is not often...

    The mismatch is real and the fate of the game depends on how carbine addresses this problem.  Hyperbole maybe or just soup for thought.

    This is just one gamers opinion whose friends are beginning to twiddle thumbs while whistling "what to do now carbine".

    The difficulty level is the one thing I loved about the game. The questing just killed it for me. Made it to 28 and dropped it. I tired to jump in pvp to level but I can't stand it. I just see no skill in that pvp what so ever. Just a bunch of people spamming skills.

    Its a good game no doubt just fails in a few areas.

    Would you rather camp a single mob for 20 levels vanilla Everquest style?

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by OminousDawn

     

    Let the raiders have their game.

    Variety is the spice of life.  Truth be told, if we allowed these niche games to cater to their specific niche markets then those players wouldn't be in other game forums crying to change a game that was not meant for them.  Personally, I do not like raiding at all.  So if WildStar is a raiding game, it is simply not for me and I will simply stay far, far away from it.  Fortunately for me, it's not the only game in the market.  So guess what I'm going to do?  That's right!  Play one that as closely as possible, fits my gaming preferences. 

    I think that's the best question of all, is it just a Raiding game? Is that the only thing they've advertised the game as? DO they say plainly anywhere that is the only thing they plan to cater to or design their game around? raids= the only endgame they will offer? I honestly don't know, I didn't really follow the game. Just because people say it here doesn't exactly make it so. Context to these statements would also help.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by OminousDawn

     

    Let the raiders have their game.

    Variety is the spice of life.  Truth be told, if we allowed these niche games to cater to their specific niche markets then those players wouldn't be in other game forums crying to change a game that was not meant for them.  Personally, I do not like raiding at all.  So if WildStar is a raiding game, it is simply not for me and I will simply stay far, far away from it.  Fortunately for me, it's not the only game in the market.  So guess what I'm going to do?  That's right!  Play one that as closely as possible, fits my gaming preferences. 

    I think that's the best question of all is it just a Raiding game? Is that the only thing they've advertised the game as? DO they say plainly anywhere that is the only thing they plan to cater to or design their game around? raids= the only endgame they will offer? I honestly don't know, I didn't really follow the game. Just because people say it here doesn't exactly make it so. Context to these statements would also help.

    Just watched it all and I see "hardcore" is to Wildstar, what "dynamic" was to GW2 advertising, yet it really didn't say it's the only thing they offer.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    it's an MMO...it offers other MMO stuff too.

     

    it's just the primary focus.

     

    It's not the only stuff it offers but it is a raider's home.

    I figured as much...Watching the devs unleashed video right now a direct quote from it. Keep in mind discussing endgame...Some paraphrasing as he added a lot of descriptors to each little talking point.

    "We have content for everybody, You've probably heard about raids being crazy for the hardcore 1%, and it's true and they are, but we have that type of content for everybody...", "we have root PVE content, Like adventures. We have battle grounds, arenas, open world PVP server rulesets, then for the hardcore PVP 1 % we have warplots"

    What was that everyone was saying about games catering to everybody? As well as do your research?

    http://www.vg247.com/2014/05/09/wildstar-dev-diary-talks-endgame-promises-best-damn-mmo-youre-going-to-play-this-year/

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 7,096
    Originally posted by kitarad
    I will never even in my wildest dreams make gold that I cannot do even the challenges I seldom get a gold. I manage silver a lot. I am mediocre at best. I am not quick enough but I enjoy the game. I will not be upset over things that are beyond me instead I will enjoy the things I can do. I will heal where I am needed and the groups that are not going for the best loot may take me to heal. I also love the housing and I have so far got about 4 crafters so I can get may be the best crafted items I can make. This is enough for me. I know you probably think I am pathetic but I have always worked for what I can manage in a game and not be too far behind but if you are unhappy about what you can achieve then you will very unsatisfied.

    This has always been my approach to MMO´s too.

    I never cared for Raiding and never will. Way too time consuming. And by the time you are fully geared up, an expansion hits and you can start all over again.  Thanks but no thanks.

    I have enjoyed endgame Dungeons tho, like the UBRS/LBRS and the like back in Vanilla WoW. It was great fun and not as time consuming as the 20 and 40 man RAID´s at the time. Never got that chest piece tho. Man I was unlucky as hell back then. Did UBRS like 60-70 times or so lol.

    I just try to enjoy the leveling experience more and focus on that. Bit of crafing here and there. Had a fantastic time in LOTRO, EQ2, TSW, etc.

    Sadly, like someone else already mentioned. I hate the leveling in this game, just couldn´t get past Level 15, before I got completely bored. :(

    So I am back to FFXIV and love it again, trying to finish my storyline on my Paladin (lvl36 now).

  • redbugredbug Member UncommonPosts: 175
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Skymourne
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    None of you answered Distopia's question. Not one. He asked how offering a non-hardcore option would ruin the hardcore for you. I will add one to that. How would adding a non-hardcore option to the progression path, be it slower or what not, ruin the hardcore progression path? The final question is, do you think there are enough hardcore people to keep the doors open and the content updates coming? I don't.

    Because then it would be just like WoW and i'm willing to bet that a great deal of people playing Wildstar do not want that.  Just another damn game that got destroyed.  There would be multiple tiers and "LFR", along with multiple levels of gear.  Now, if Carbine decides to pull something magical out of their asses, and makes some solo or small group content, outside of dungeons, that appease the casual side of the playerbase, then we might have something here.  But that won't happen.  Why?

    Because the casual crowd will complain, relentlessly, until our ears and eyes bleed, that their gear from that content isn't comparable to the gear the raiders are in and they will not be happy until it is.  Threats, quitting, blah blah blah.  So, to make sure none of that matters?  Carbine says "fuck them" right off the bat.  If we can manage about 200k subs without them, we'll be just fine.  

    You still didn't explain how that invalidates challenging content or why offering an alternate progression path to the same gear is bad. But we'll leave it that.

    Just remember if they do nerf or if they ever shift business models it's not because they're catering to casuals. It's because the hardcores can't pay their own way and the only way they can make the money they want is by appealing to a broader demographic.

    I don't see the harm in letting less than hardcore players have their own dumbed down raids with diminished gear returns. It's not like any of the elitist that posted here even play with those people. Why would you care what other people are doing? Did it bother you when I upgraded my house yesterday? Of course not, you don't even know who I am much less care. So why are you so set on prohibiting other more casual players from doing something you don't care about with people you don't group with? Some idiot said it would split carbines resources, please... a monkey with a crowbar can dumb down a raid. This argument that it's going to destroy the game is weak and pathetic.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 7,096
    Originally posted by prognar

    Everyone has answered the OP's question, the game was designed to be hard...

    If you didn't do the research before playing, your the only person to blame.

    you got 30 days of game, for a standard single player price, be happy and move on...

    Like everyone else has said, get better, and find people who want to do the same content as you..

    If you can't be bothered play something else, developers will just be happy you didn't read into the fine print before playing and got an extra sub for a month...

    The game was never designed for "CASUAL PLAYERS", so there's no point in asking why there is no content designed to cater for "CASUAL PLAYERS", no-one needs to explain WHY because the devs have said from the begging this game is for HARDCORE PLAYERS.

     

    So you wasted your money...  move on.

    Hyperbole much?  Show me proof that Carbine said Wildstar is for HARDCORE players only!

    It would be financial suicide if they did.

    All they said is that the endgame, and in particular the RAID´s would be hard! Something for the more dedicated and hardcore players looking for a challenge.

    The vast majority of the game itself, leveling, tasks, challenges, housing, crafting is definitely designed and doable for a broad audience!

    This game is nothing different than what Vanilla WoW and EverQuest 2 was. It basically goes back to those roots.

    Nothing wrong with that by the way.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by prognar

    Everyone has answered the OP's question, the game was designed to be hard...

    If you didn't do the research before playing, your the only person to blame.

    you got 30 days of game, for a standard single player price, be happy and move on...

    Like everyone else has said, get better, and find people who want to do the same content as you..

    If you can't be bothered play something else, developers will just be happy you didn't read into the fine print before playing and got an extra sub for a month...

    The game was never designed for "CASUAL PLAYERS", so there's no point in asking why there is no content designed to cater for "CASUAL PLAYERS", no-one needs to explain WHY because the devs have said from the begging this game is for HARDCORE PLAYERS.

     

    So you wasted your money...  move on.

    Hyperbole much?  Show me proof that Carbine said Wildstar is for HARDCORE players only!

    It would be financial suicide if they did.

    All they said is that the endgame, and in particular the RAID´s would be hard! Something for the more dedicated and hardcore players looking for a challenge.

    The vast majority of the game itself, leveling, tasks, challenges, housing, crafting is definitely designed and doable for a broad audience!

    This game is nothing different than what Vanilla WoW and EverQuest 2 was. It basically goes back to those roots.

    Nothing wrong with that by the way.

    In case you missed it, they certainly didn't say it here. I'm thinking this is one of those "promises" that were never made, some are clinging to. Based on forum hearsay rather than any real dev quote. Say it enough it becomes true.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6376313#6376313

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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