As for the topic at hand, I just have two questions: What the hell are you smoking, and where can I get some? Suing people for cheating in an online game? The only way I could see that being feasible is if there's documented proof of said cheating resulting in a significant loss of revenue for the company, and by significant I mean in the millions. Even then, I would only consider it justified if said cheating was accomplished via compromising the integrity of either company-owned servers, or the client security of other users. Exploiting a bug or using an aimbot? Hell no.
No one is being sued.
Proving loss of revenue applies to civil cases, not criminal cases. For a criminal case, they only have to prove that a law was broken.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't care if they sue them, but this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. No one should be going to jail for this mainly, because that forces tax payers to have to pay to keep them in jail.
My tax dollars get wasted on a lot of things and that doesn't need to now include some raging teenager who cheated at CoD.
I honestly can't tell if you guys are being serious or kidding around.
I mean, do you people understand the difference between criminal and tort cases?
Do you not understand how blindingly stupid you're being?
Do you not know how many hundreds of thousands of hours of thinking went into our current system of laws?
Are none of you insulted that someone wants life imprisonment, death, or torture for cheating in a VIDEO GAME?
You want to be victimized your entire life?
None of this makes any sense ... at all.
Welcome to the difference between justice and revenge.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
I really like the idea of pressing charges for cheating. Any amount of cheating directly hurts their business. Would you continue to play a game where hackers were ruining your experience? I have seen a few arguments about why people cheat, but in the end, cheating in a multiplayer game seems to be at the expense of the other players. I think it is very reasonable to press charges in the same way you would want to press charges against someone who is harassing people that try to come into your business.
I don't care if they sue them, but this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. No one should be going to jail for this mainly, because that forces tax payers to have to pay to keep them in jail.
My tax dollars get wasted on a lot of things and that doesn't need to now include some raging teenager who cheated at CoD.
If it is in violation of local/regional laws then it is criminal, not civil. And where in the article did it say anything about jail? Don't worry, your tax dollars are safe. You are paying taxes in Japan, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Quizzical Whether criminal charges for cheating are reasonable depends on how you're cheating. For exploiting a bug that exists in the game, no. For launching a denial of service attack or hacking into a company's servers to steal data, yes.
Fair enough...I think most everyone would agree.
Actual hacking and DDOS'ing would already be illegal and we need to place more funding into stopping the scourge of online crime that we currently have rather than add new crime when the old internet crime isnt even being dealt with properly.
Putting resources into actual online crime like hacking, identity theft and scams from Nigeria would be a good start. These are already illegal and yet we are spread so thin that we cannot enforce the problems we have currently.
Adding more problems to an already taxed out system is incredibly foolish especially when the company in question could use their own resources to deal with their own issues.
The problem is that that enforcing national laws against online crimes is often impractical. Suppose some hacker breaks into your stuff and steals stuff from you, and it can be traced exactly who did it--but it's someone in a foreign country whose government doesn't mind if you get hacked. Then what?
Sometimes the process is the punishment. Even having to pay a bunch of legal fees to defend yourself before eventually winning the case is a considerable punishment in itself. Would cheaters back off if they thought they might get hauled into court and potentially have to pay a huge fine or go to prison for it? Some wouldn't, but some might.
The RIAA took this approach to combating piracy, and I'd argue that they had some success with it. Obviously it didn't eliminate piracy entirely, but it probably made a lot of potential pirates think twice about it. I'm not arguing as to whether using the courts for this is a good thing or a bad thing. But if a company wants word to get out that cheating in their games could get you in bigger trouble than a mere ban, filing charges against a cheater is one way to do it, even if you lose the case.
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?
It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly? What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?
Jail ruins your life, so the result would be no one plays or makes any MMORPG?
And in my opinion, it is LESS than the candy bar. That bar MIGHT be life sustaining for someone. We're talking about a game.
Also, we're talking about rights.
Also, you don't understand about business and are forcing socialization into the progress. A business isn't a living thing.
At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.
And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.
You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?
Are you saying that anything YOU decide is evil or are we going to apply to this to life? If you speed or run a red light you get the death penalty? Those are more harmful or dangerous.
I mean, people like you are so far outside of reality that I'm not sure we can communicate.
Do you think it is society that screwed up your head so bad that you have no way to be rational?
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?
It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly? What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?
Jail ruins your life, so the result would be no one plays or makes any MMORPG?
And in my opinion, it is LESS than the candy bar. That bar MIGHT be life sustaining for someone. We're talking about a game.
Also, we're talking about rights.
Also, you don't understand about business and are forcing socialization into the progress. A business isn't a living thing.
At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.
And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.
You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?
Are you saying that anything YOU decide is evil or are we going to apply to this to life? If you speed or run a red light you get the death penalty? Those are more harmful or dangerous.
I mean, people like you are so far outside of reality that I'm not sure we can communicate.
Do you think it is society that screwed up your head so bad that you have no way to be rational?
Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense. For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first. Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up). There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either. Well, except lack of evidence.
Sometimes the process is the punishment. Even having to pay a bunch of legal fees to defend yourself before eventually winning the case is a considerable punishment in itself. Would cheaters back off if they thought they might get hauled into court and potentially have to pay a huge fine or go to prison for it? Some wouldn't, but some might.
The RIAA took this approach to combating piracy, and I'd argue that they had some success with it. Obviously it didn't eliminate piracy entirely, but it probably made a lot of potential pirates think twice about it. I'm not arguing as to whether using the courts for this is a good thing or a bad thing. But if a company wants word to get out that cheating in their games could get you in bigger trouble than a mere ban, filing charges against a cheater is one way to do it, even if you lose the case.
The RIAA failed so hard they gave up.
At first, they tried to get the people that were SELLING music and movies. They couldn't as these were either Johnny Mob or asians.
Then they tried to shut down sharing sites. However, everytime they shut one down 2 more popped up. (Dot Com was an idiot and an exception.) Pirate Bay was due to the name.
Then *sigh* they tried suing the shit out of soccer moms. They did sue them, but learned a valuable lesson. (Hint: its called a ton of black press.)
Putting some kids in jail for striking out at a video game (and bankrupting their parents) would break even SOE. NO ONE would buy or play those games. I'm sure the pedophiles back your theory though.
Apparently you haven't figured out this whole international thing either. Every country in the world would work to put the USA businesses out of business and would refuse prosecution.
And apparently you haven't heard of free law, which we have in the USA anyway. You think SOE or some company thinks dragging some fat sweaty sneakered kid before a judge is good publicity? No, it wouldn't be.
Even if any part of this would be remotely within jurisprudence. Which it is not.
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?
It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly? What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?
Jail ruins your life, so the result would be no one plays or makes any MMORPG?
And in my opinion, it is LESS than the candy bar. That bar MIGHT be life sustaining for someone. We're talking about a game.
Also, we're talking about rights.
Also, you don't understand about business and are forcing socialization into the progress. A business isn't a living thing.
At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.
And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.
You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?
Are you saying that anything YOU decide is evil or are we going to apply to this to life? If you speed or run a red light you get the death penalty? Those are more harmful or dangerous.
I mean, people like you are so far outside of reality that I'm not sure we can communicate.
Do you think it is society that screwed up your head so bad that you have no way to be rational?
Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense. For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first. Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up). There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either. Well, except lack of evidence.
Actually I'm pretty much the only one here making sense.
I understand you have to find a reason to go to trial, but you little lemmings are able to press charges against anyone "cheating" (which here is define as anything YOU don't like). Yes, it does require proof and discovery and voir dire and a bunch of other things. I'm taking you at your word.
When you accuse someone of murder in the real world, you gotta have proof and the police are involved. Not so in crazy-ass game company presses fantastic bullshit charges.
Since your point of view is so cracked, it is difficult for us to speak. I'm certain most people have already given you the "you're crazy" face and stumbled off.
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?
It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly? What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?
Jail ruins your life, so the result would be no one plays or makes any MMORPG?
And in my opinion, it is LESS than the candy bar. That bar MIGHT be life sustaining for someone. We're talking about a game.
Also, we're talking about rights.
Also, you don't understand about business and are forcing socialization into the progress. A business isn't a living thing.
At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.
And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.
You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?
Are you saying that anything YOU decide is evil or are we going to apply to this to life? If you speed or run a red light you get the death penalty? Those are more harmful or dangerous.
I mean, people like you are so far outside of reality that I'm not sure we can communicate.
Do you think it is society that screwed up your head so bad that you have no way to be rational?
Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense. For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first. Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up). There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either. Well, except lack of evidence.
Baitness is right. Anyone can make "hackusations" just like anyone can go around accusing people of murder. That's not what this is about though. This is about an actual wrongdoing or violation of law and the company's decision to press criminal charges based on their evidence of it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
<Snip>
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
<Snip>
Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense. For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first. Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up). There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either. Well, except lack of evidence.
Baitness is right. Anyone can make "hackusations" just like anyone can go around accusing people of murder. That's not what this is about though. This is about an actual wrongdoing or violation of law and the company's decision to press criminal charges based on their evidence of it.
No, Baitness is WRONG. I advise you not to go making murder accusations wildly. That is a crime.
But, far from us to say Murder is a crime but cheating in a video game? Too much gold? Camp stealing your mawb?! By god that is the death penalty!
Again, no one would play those games and it isn't currently in law (and a laughable league from it) and no sane company, from the examples prior expressed, would EVER do so.
Any actions from a 3rd partiea that result in damages and loss of revenue to a business should be subject to penalty.
Cheating in games leads to lost revenue - the problem is having verifiable metrics to show definite impact.
I agree. However, those are CIVIL penalties not criminal. And good luck proving that. In multiple jurisdictions through losing something virtual in a game. Which isn't losing.
You remember how that works for banks or actual services, right? Not games?
Also, court cases aren't cheap. And when you're dragging children into court (or others) and they're being defended probono, things change. It gets very expensive. And it drags on for years. And god help you if you're wrong.
Juries LOVE slapping big companies with huge lawsuits (although those too are often appealed down).
Admittedly, I'm speaking of law in the USA. Who the hell knows what is going on in Japan.
I assume there is no debate as to whether or not this harms the company - I have quit games due to rampant cheating before and I bet most gamers can relate. Cheating absolutely hurts the company behind the game.
It seems to me that Corax is making the argument that this is the first step in a slippery slope towards gamers accusing each other. I feel that the outcome he fears is nonsensical though, and would be thrown out quickly with the only victim being the time and money of the accusing gamer that possessed no evidence.
I think it is very clear that rampant hacking should be as criminal offense. Defending against cheaters seems to require reactionary measures. So far in gaming it seems that it is a game of cat and mouse, with the hackers being the mouse and two steps ahead. Criminal charges are an excellent way to level the playing field, and to deter potential cheaters.
We are not talking about individuals who erred and accidentally fell on the wrong side of the law. We are talking about people who get amusement from stopping paying customers from enjoying the games they play.
There seems to me that there is no defense for this. You are interested in cheating and playing God? There are floods of single player PC games where you can do that. You want to stop other people from enjoying the game they paid for? I hope they slap you with a fine and worse. You are not just hurting your fellow gamer, but the company behind the game as well.
Originally posted by Baitness I assume there is no debate as to whether or not this harms the company - I have quit games due to rampant cheating before and I bet most gamers can relate. Cheating absolutely hurts the company behind the game.
It seems to me that Corax is making the argument that this is the first step in a slippery slope towards gamers accusing each other. I feel that the outcome he fears is nonsensical though, and would be thrown out quickly with the only victim being the time and money of the accusing gamer that possessed no evidence.
I think it is very clear that rampant hacking should be as criminal offense. Defending against cheaters seems to require reactionary measures. So far in gaming it seems that it is a game of cat and mouse, with the hackers being the mouse and two steps ahead. Criminal charges are an excellent way to level the playing field, and to deter potential cheaters.
We are not talking about individuals who erred and accidentally fell on the wrong side of the law. We are talking about people who get amusement from stopping paying customers from enjoying the games they play.
There seems to me that there is no defense for this. You are interested in cheating and playing God? There are floods of single player PC games where you can do that. You want to stop other people from enjoying the game they paid for? I hope they slap you with a fine and worse. You are not just hurting your fellow gamer, but the company behind the game as well.
I agree cheating hurts the company.
I realize that a criminal penalty is nonsensical. Not only would gamers question each other, but also the companies. Burden of proof in such cases would be extreme. Not only would hacking, duping, or whatever have to be proven, but also who did such crime. There would have to be an appeals process. Cost would be exorbitant.
Also, if the company could be held to count in criminal charges made against them as well.
This doesn't account for civil trials following.
And, how would you know, when accident was different from purpose? How do you decide who is worthy, or amused? You can't. No one can.
Again, parading those poor wretches before the people, the company is going to accrue very bad will also, they will lose armies of players with each case.
With a civil case, you at least have a chance, but the company is going to pay handsomely for a slim prize that is years away behind multiple appeals and more. The hacker or whoever will be poor, so all of his legal defense will be probono (free).
Also, in a criminal trial, you charge thousands of dollars to the populace to try these cases. Not just regular people's defense but also the entire defendant's case as well.
Do you now, not see, why we don't do this?
I understand you don't like cheaters, but they are everywhere. Even in professional sports.
However, pushing made up criminal charges on them is not the way to go about it, even if you were to get those laws written.
Civil suits, while pursuable, won't work either. The defendants won't be able or be made to pay.
And, thirdly, if you make the penalties too steep, no one will play the games anyway.
I think what you described would go down differently.
Specifically starting from where you suggest it may be an accident. There is no accident with many of the cheats that occur. It is not like there is a subtlety involved. You do not go to a website for game hacks, subscribe, and accidentally enable them. Even in the case of glitches I think it would be easy enough to prove malicious intent. Dupe an item one time? Maybe an accident. Twice? Just checking. Twenty times and selling the dupes for great in game profit? Well that seems odd.
It seems to me that the line between malicious intent and accidental discovery is not fine nor easily ignored - especially in cases of hacking.
As to your argument about cheaters being everywhere, we are in a fairly unique situation with games. We are being sold as product, that is in several scenarios nothing more than a competition and/or entertainment. Outside of tournaments with rewards, it seems to me that most individual gamers are not in any position, even with evidence, to use legal recourse against another individual gamer. It would be an exceptionally difficult argument to make.
The company making the game however, seems to have solid ground to stand on. I doubt they will get much from any individual, as the real money would be from attacking hack developers (as Blizzard has done in the post). This is more than just winning back lost money, though - it is a deterrent to the cheating player rather than just the hack developer.
It seems to me that this is the right course to take. The attempts to litigate against hack developers are easily circumvented by the developers living in countries that do not give a damn. If the hacking players were also limited in such a way, I imagine it would be a great boon to game developers.
Imagine if players in the world series of poker started getting caught with a device that hid an ace and then put it in their hand when they wanted. First, players would get banned. New players continue to get caught with it. Then, the tournament would sue the companies making the device. Companies outside US jurisdiction continue to produce it. Finally, the tournament takes the players caught with the device to court. It is easier than the previous step, and a drastically bigger deterrent than both prior steps.
This is not a perfect analogy, obviously, but one of the biggest reasons it is not is the anonymity provided for players on the internet. Players caught hacking and banned can simply purchase new accounts and continue where they left off. Until there is some way to guarantee the ability to track down and convict the creators of multiplayer game hacks, the best approach is to attempt to use legal recourse on both the hack creators and the cheaters that use them.
Just a reminder, we are not discussing what these cheaters do with their own game, but rather what they do with other peoples games, far past the point of ruining other players purchases and the success of the game developers. If you must fiddle with cheating, there are many single player games you can get your kicks on. If that is not enough then there are even multiplayer games that support mods, assuming you have friends willing to play with you. If your true source of enjoyment comes from preventing others from enjoying their games then I absolutely feel that developers should use legal means to stop you.
In Japan, online game company Nexon is pressing charges against three gamers, ages 17 to 18, for obstruction of business. In short, the gamers were allegedly using in-game cheats for online FPS Sudden Attack. That, it seems, was hurting the game and Nexon.
Comments
No one is being sued.
Proving loss of revenue applies to civil cases, not criminal cases. For a criminal case, they only have to prove that a law was broken.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So because a bully picks on a kid that can't defend himself, he should be punished? If the guy could defend himself the bully shouldn't be punished?
http://www.matrix13.com
40K Eternal Crusade: Accepting signups with 4k point BONUS
Hey good thing you put words in my mouth.
I totally had in mind punishing them the same way as punishing a rapist.
With a plunger broke in half and stuck...
(Yes, I did some time in county and someone managed to piss me off and it was worth the extra time since he now poos in a tube roflmao.)
http://www.matrix13.com
40K Eternal Crusade: Accepting signups with 4k point BONUS
I don't care if they sue them, but this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. No one should be going to jail for this mainly, because that forces tax payers to have to pay to keep them in jail.
My tax dollars get wasted on a lot of things and that doesn't need to now include some raging teenager who cheated at CoD.
Agree fully with you. Like cheating in casino or with cards ... there after cought them they would call police.
I honestly can't tell if you guys are being serious or kidding around.
I mean, do you people understand the difference between criminal and tort cases?
Do you not understand how blindingly stupid you're being?
Do you not know how many hundreds of thousands of hours of thinking went into our current system of laws?
Are none of you insulted that someone wants life imprisonment, death, or torture for cheating in a VIDEO GAME?
You want to be victimized your entire life?
None of this makes any sense ... at all.
Welcome to the difference between justice and revenge.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Actually yes they should go to jail, seriously also. They make those business lose so much money by cheating or hacking or botting or selling gold, and they know far well that it is not legal to do so.
If you don't understand why they lose money here is a hint : lose players because those players are tired of always playing with hackers or botters or gold sellers = lost of revenue or some times a full shut down of a business = not legal.
If you can't understand that then you need to go learn a few things about life. Because this is far more serious then to steal a chocolate bar at the store.
So yes they should get a criminal record and even do time for all the lost of profit. That will serve them right.
If it is in violation of local/regional laws then it is criminal, not civil. And where in the article did it say anything about jail? Don't worry, your tax dollars are safe. You are paying taxes in Japan, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The problem is that that enforcing national laws against online crimes is often impractical. Suppose some hacker breaks into your stuff and steals stuff from you, and it can be traced exactly who did it--but it's someone in a foreign country whose government doesn't mind if you get hacked. Then what?
Sometimes the process is the punishment. Even having to pay a bunch of legal fees to defend yourself before eventually winning the case is a considerable punishment in itself. Would cheaters back off if they thought they might get hauled into court and potentially have to pay a huge fine or go to prison for it? Some wouldn't, but some might.
The RIAA took this approach to combating piracy, and I'd argue that they had some success with it. Obviously it didn't eliminate piracy entirely, but it probably made a lot of potential pirates think twice about it. I'm not arguing as to whether using the courts for this is a good thing or a bad thing. But if a company wants word to get out that cheating in their games could get you in bigger trouble than a mere ban, filing charges against a cheater is one way to do it, even if you lose the case.
So, I have a lemon stand. If you have one, then I accuse you of cheating? They lock you up?
What if you play said video game and make too much gold. If (anyone) doesn't like it they whine you're cheating and then BAM, you're locked up?
It is the cheater/botter's problem that they didn't program their game properly? What if the game's owner cheats (like Eve, for example) and makes free stuff for their players? Do they go to jail?
Jail ruins your life, so the result would be no one plays or makes any MMORPG?
And in my opinion, it is LESS than the candy bar. That bar MIGHT be life sustaining for someone. We're talking about a game.
Also, we're talking about rights.
Also, you don't understand about business and are forcing socialization into the progress. A business isn't a living thing.
At some point, the business has to take responsibility for protecting itself.
And, if anything lost from the game is a criminal offense, then you're being criminal by playing so much and the game (and so its owners) are by not kicking you off.
You DO understand that you can also make someone else appear to be the cheater?
Are you saying that anything YOU decide is evil or are we going to apply to this to life? If you speed or run a red light you get the death penalty? Those are more harmful or dangerous.
I mean, people like you are so far outside of reality that I'm not sure we can communicate.
Do you think it is society that screwed up your head so bad that you have no way to be rational?
Not only are you rude, you do not make much sense. For this to go to trial a judge would have a hearing first. Well, actually I am not familiar with Japanese law, but you are equating accusations with evidence of misconduct (which is a term I just made up). There is nothing to stop you from going around accusing people of murder, either. Well, except lack of evidence.
The RIAA failed so hard they gave up.
At first, they tried to get the people that were SELLING music and movies. They couldn't as these were either Johnny Mob or asians.
Then they tried to shut down sharing sites. However, everytime they shut one down 2 more popped up. (Dot Com was an idiot and an exception.) Pirate Bay was due to the name.
Then *sigh* they tried suing the shit out of soccer moms. They did sue them, but learned a valuable lesson. (Hint: its called a ton of black press.)
Putting some kids in jail for striking out at a video game (and bankrupting their parents) would break even SOE. NO ONE would buy or play those games. I'm sure the pedophiles back your theory though.
Apparently you haven't figured out this whole international thing either. Every country in the world would work to put the USA businesses out of business and would refuse prosecution.
And apparently you haven't heard of free law, which we have in the USA anyway. You think SOE or some company thinks dragging some fat sweaty sneakered kid before a judge is good publicity? No, it wouldn't be.
Even if any part of this would be remotely within jurisprudence. Which it is not.
Actually I'm pretty much the only one here making sense.
I understand you have to find a reason to go to trial, but you little lemmings are able to press charges against anyone "cheating" (which here is define as anything YOU don't like). Yes, it does require proof and discovery and voir dire and a bunch of other things. I'm taking you at your word.
When you accuse someone of murder in the real world, you gotta have proof and the police are involved. Not so in crazy-ass game company presses fantastic bullshit charges.
Since your point of view is so cracked, it is difficult for us to speak. I'm certain most people have already given you the "you're crazy" face and stumbled off.
Baitness is right. Anyone can make "hackusations" just like anyone can go around accusing people of murder. That's not what this is about though. This is about an actual wrongdoing or violation of law and the company's decision to press criminal charges based on their evidence of it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, Baitness is WRONG. I advise you not to go making murder accusations wildly. That is a crime.
But, far from us to say Murder is a crime but cheating in a video game? Too much gold? Camp stealing your mawb?! By god that is the death penalty!
Again, no one would play those games and it isn't currently in law (and a laughable league from it) and no sane company, from the examples prior expressed, would EVER do so.
It seems to me that Corax is making the argument that this is the first step in a slippery slope towards gamers accusing each other. I feel that the outcome he fears is nonsensical though, and would be thrown out quickly with the only victim being the time and money of the accusing gamer that possessed no evidence.
I think it is very clear that rampant hacking should be as criminal offense. Defending against cheaters seems to require reactionary measures. So far in gaming it seems that it is a game of cat and mouse, with the hackers being the mouse and two steps ahead. Criminal charges are an excellent way to level the playing field, and to deter potential cheaters.
We are not talking about individuals who erred and accidentally fell on the wrong side of the law. We are talking about people who get amusement from stopping paying customers from enjoying the games they play.
There seems to me that there is no defense for this. You are interested in cheating and playing God? There are floods of single player PC games where you can do that. You want to stop other people from enjoying the game they paid for? I hope they slap you with a fine and worse. You are not just hurting your fellow gamer, but the company behind the game as well.
I agree cheating hurts the company.
I realize that a criminal penalty is nonsensical. Not only would gamers question each other, but also the companies. Burden of proof in such cases would be extreme. Not only would hacking, duping, or whatever have to be proven, but also who did such crime. There would have to be an appeals process. Cost would be exorbitant.
Also, if the company could be held to count in criminal charges made against them as well.
This doesn't account for civil trials following.
And, how would you know, when accident was different from purpose? How do you decide who is worthy, or amused? You can't. No one can.
Again, parading those poor wretches before the people, the company is going to accrue very bad will also, they will lose armies of players with each case.
With a civil case, you at least have a chance, but the company is going to pay handsomely for a slim prize that is years away behind multiple appeals and more. The hacker or whoever will be poor, so all of his legal defense will be probono (free).
Also, in a criminal trial, you charge thousands of dollars to the populace to try these cases. Not just regular people's defense but also the entire defendant's case as well.
Do you now, not see, why we don't do this?
I understand you don't like cheaters, but they are everywhere. Even in professional sports.
However, pushing made up criminal charges on them is not the way to go about it, even if you were to get those laws written.
Civil suits, while pursuable, won't work either. The defendants won't be able or be made to pay.
And, thirdly, if you make the penalties too steep, no one will play the games anyway.
Specifically starting from where you suggest it may be an accident. There is no accident with many of the cheats that occur. It is not like there is a subtlety involved. You do not go to a website for game hacks, subscribe, and accidentally enable them. Even in the case of glitches I think it would be easy enough to prove malicious intent. Dupe an item one time? Maybe an accident. Twice? Just checking. Twenty times and selling the dupes for great in game profit? Well that seems odd.
It seems to me that the line between malicious intent and accidental discovery is not fine nor easily ignored - especially in cases of hacking.
As to your argument about cheaters being everywhere, we are in a fairly unique situation with games. We are being sold as product, that is in several scenarios nothing more than a competition and/or entertainment. Outside of tournaments with rewards, it seems to me that most individual gamers are not in any position, even with evidence, to use legal recourse against another individual gamer. It would be an exceptionally difficult argument to make.
The company making the game however, seems to have solid ground to stand on. I doubt they will get much from any individual, as the real money would be from attacking hack developers (as Blizzard has done in the post). This is more than just winning back lost money, though - it is a deterrent to the cheating player rather than just the hack developer.
It seems to me that this is the right course to take. The attempts to litigate against hack developers are easily circumvented by the developers living in countries that do not give a damn. If the hacking players were also limited in such a way, I imagine it would be a great boon to game developers.
Imagine if players in the world series of poker started getting caught with a device that hid an ace and then put it in their hand when they wanted. First, players would get banned. New players continue to get caught with it. Then, the tournament would sue the companies making the device. Companies outside US jurisdiction continue to produce it. Finally, the tournament takes the players caught with the device to court. It is easier than the previous step, and a drastically bigger deterrent than both prior steps.
This is not a perfect analogy, obviously, but one of the biggest reasons it is not is the anonymity provided for players on the internet. Players caught hacking and banned can simply purchase new accounts and continue where they left off. Until there is some way to guarantee the ability to track down and convict the creators of multiplayer game hacks, the best approach is to attempt to use legal recourse on both the hack creators and the cheaters that use them.
Just a reminder, we are not discussing what these cheaters do with their own game, but rather what they do with other peoples games, far past the point of ruining other players purchases and the success of the game developers. If you must fiddle with cheating, there are many single player games you can get your kicks on. If that is not enough then there are even multiplayer games that support mods, assuming you have friends willing to play with you. If your true source of enjoyment comes from preventing others from enjoying their games then I absolutely feel that developers should use legal means to stop you.
yeah i agree with this logic, is like letting punks get in your store break it and then leave with none to catch them ...