The system they have now is just ridiculous and making it easier doesn't really solve the "grouping problem" for those who want to group.
Matt Firor ~ "We’ve implemented some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have commented on—you’ll be able to solo much more easily."
I seriously doubt that anyone at ZOS cares about "group-play" in ESO
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Originally posted by artemisentr4 The design concept should have been. Simple. All questing, including delves and VR should have been like the 1-50. Solo style while seeing others running around in the world. All group dungeons should have been much longer with worth while loot and XP. Then have PvP and elete dungeon runs along with craglorn be the group end game. All options viable ways to progress your character.
Yeah, that would have worked.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by artemisentr4 All group dungeons should have been much longer with worth while loot and XP.
Considering Matt's background, this what I was hoping ESO dungeons were going to be like. I guess they still have a shot to redeem themselves with the Imperial City if they make it huge and multi-level:
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The main issue with "encouraging grouping from the start is the way to go" is that most of the other players you meet are self-centered, greedy asshats that would sooner stand on your throat as give you the time of day.
The days of games like EQ and DAoC where players helped each other, or gave out gold and/or buffs is long gone.
Maybe it's just me as an older PC/mmo gamer (in his 40ies), but the future isn't looking to bright, and only seems to get worse with each new mmo that comes out.
Preach on brother... The games of today ore practically programmed around this asshat mentality. (40's gamer here too)
Vet Ranks are nothing more than more levels to get through. It isn't end game. ZOS fucked up in it's design ... simple as that. They implemented a ladder system that was too long and tedious and now are fixing it. It killed players from leveling alts which is a very bad thing for an mmo.
If you want difficulty within the open world leveling path go off and solo public dungeons and do group dungeons are appropriate levels without stacked run throughs. The primary defense for keeping VR difficult originates from player epeen ... players who inevitably play fotm staff builds which aoe burns everything down easily no matter how difficult it is (notice that the vast majority of these builds are centered around DK and Sorc). You already see DK players dropping their class after some nerfs. DK is STILL the most powerful class in game for pvp and pve. It can tank and aoe dps better than any other class yet fotm players still jump ship because they can't instant win as fast as they used to. The only reason why you don't see people leaving the staff build bandwagon is because it is still the most effective build in game regardless of class. If it gets nerfed for a stamina weapon surpassed staff you will see the majority of these players changing instantly to that weapon and taking the class proven to mathematically mesh the best.
These are the worst sort of players for an RPG. Their character identity means nothing to them. They do not play the game. They play a spreadsheet.
Who seriously wants mmo game change based upon fotm fast leveling grinders anyway? That would be the worse possible choice. The game needs something akin to a lt/champ/boss ranking for mobs so players have choices but trash should be trash ... not raid buffed level encounters which was what VR was like for many classes and builds. Something had to be done and this is the first step. If ZOS fucked it up so badly the first time why do you think they would get it right the second time? Are these players also delusional along with ignoring this is a TES game and not an Elitist Jerks style multi-tiered raid game?
There are fundamental, overarching problems in ESO atm and the main issues should be addressed and talked about yet everyone simply whines over each individual change instead of thinking about the greater improvement of the game. The July letter clearly mentioned that several system changes are being considered to address the bigger issues related to end game and Vet Ranks yet this is ignored and the cries over one single change while ignoring the reasons for it continues on. The issue isn't so much the game as the child-like, narrow minded arguments that continue without purpose or reason.
Implement encounter scaling in code. If it's one person, it scales to one person. If it is a group, it scales to the group.
See Guild Wars 2 for how this can be done, to accomodate ALL play styles with the same content.
Alternately, see Dungeons and Dragons which had hard difficulty selections at the start of their story instances as another way to do this.
The team that's making ESO don't seem to be versed in the more recent advancements in MMOs, and that seems to be part of the problem.
Take this Free to Play, make the necessary changes and let the game grow.
See SWTOR for how this can be done successfully.
If you want a gw2 like game just play GW2
If you want F2P pick one of the many F2P games out there.
The problem is people have options but choose to play a game that is obviously not for them and choose then tell everyone around about the big bad company that scammed them.
Your right about this, completely spot on. Everyone wants whatever game they are currently playing to be like some other game they are no longer playing......
The main issue with "encouraging grouping from the start is the way to go" is that most of the other players you meet are self-centered, greedy asshats that would sooner stand on your throat as give you the time of day.
The days of games like EQ and DAoC where players helped each other, or gave out gold and/or buffs is long gone.
Maybe it's just me as an older PC/mmo gamer (in his 40ies), but the future isn't looking to bright, and only seems to get worse with each new mmo that comes out.
Being an older gamers and now turned Dev, this is what is going on. I'm not saying all these games are awesome, but they could be better. If we had games like Asheron call 1 and DOAC, a lot of the gamers today would quit. There are way to many people who are anti social these days. This is the main issue, I think. I also have seen this after 15 years or running guild. I see less and less people wanting to group and/or voice chat.
I remember in AC, we all grouped and gave stuff to one another. Man those were the days, sad that MMO's are turning into one big solo fest .
The main issue with "encouraging grouping from the start is the way to go" is that most of the other players you meet are self-centered, greedy asshats that would sooner stand on your throat as give you the time of day.
The days of games like EQ and DAoC where players helped each other, or gave out gold and/or buffs is long gone.
Maybe it's just me as an older PC/mmo gamer (in his 40ies), but the future isn't looking to bright, and only seems to get worse with each new mmo that comes out.
In GW2 you can help out your fellow players and easily cross servers to do it.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The main issue with "encouraging grouping from the start is the way to go" is that most of the other players you meet are self-centered, greedy asshats that would sooner stand on your throat as give you the time of day.
The days of games like EQ and DAoC where players helped each other, or gave out gold and/or buffs is long gone.
Maybe it's just me as an older PC/mmo gamer (in his 40ies), but the future isn't looking to bright, and only seems to get worse with each new mmo that comes out.
Being an older gamers and now turned Dev, this is what is going on. I'm not saying all these games are awesome, but they could be better. If we had games like Asheron call 1 and DOAC, a lot of the gamers today would quit. There are way to many people who are anti social these days. This is the main issue, I think. I also have seen this after 15 years or running guild. I see less and less people wanting to group and/or voice chat.
I remember in AC, we all grouped and gave stuff to one another. Man those were the days, sad that MMO's are turning into one big solo fest .
You can't blame the gamers only in this. Yes most players want to play solo, but most new games have no reason to group. That is a Dev issue IMO. Give more of a reason to group and players will. But not forced grouping.
Basic questing with a story is designed to be done solo really. It is a personal story told to each individual and doesn't mean the same to everyone. So I have no issue with this part of the game being and staying solo. The problem is that gamers level so fast now that dungeons don't mean anything anymore while leveling. That is a design issue.
ESO had a concept that sounded like it would work. But they failed to stick to it because they couldn't complete the first Adventure zone in time and their dungeons were just way too short. They forced everyone to level via VR questing. If you force anything on anyone, they will complain, then quit. As I have said, if the Devs stuck to 3 viable options for end game VR leveling, PvP, dungeons and 50+/50++ as intended. There would be no issue with the VR questing difficulty IMO.
I don't think that players are the only ones to blame for the way new MMO's are presented.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Originally posted by Crusades I'd rather contemplate things that actually matter. I clicked on this article simply to see what kind of stunt they would try next. Looks like pandering to casuals is the next item up for bid Bob.
I also don't like this idea. All through beta people were complaining about the lack of group content and so we got the veteran ranked areas where you are expected to group up.
Now they complain about the inability to solo said content and so the devs change it again to suit. This is a ever increasing circle of changes that will never stop now they are on this road.
As a player who plays ESO and loves it I am now at veteran rank 1 and just started the other factions content, I want some difficulty all from 1-50 it has been far to easy, I want it harder, I want to feel like I have worked and achieved that title in the journal.
I am a casual player also so please don't tar me with the same brush.
Still like playing ESO. In most mmo's my gf and I like to level together. Sometimes due to circumstances rl one is going a bit ahead of the other. But if can we try leveling together.
The part about that Zenimax promotes group play with vt ranks allmost made me cry. ESO and promoting group play? Not going together at the moment.
Small example. Entering reapers march. Still. Me and my girlfriend. I cannot see you. Ok back to malabal tor and try again. Nope still not see you when entering Reaper. In the end we discovered the reason. I had finished the first quest, she not. Walking a bit on the road and passing the first quest area and we could see eachother again.
Due to all the solo instanced world of ESO at the moment (you need to be on same quest part to can see eachother), promoting group play with the current state of the game is not even a funny remark.
Like Olgark allready mentioned. We love the game too. But it is a mmo so let us level together, even if one of us is a bit ahead of the other. Now we have the feeling it is a solo leveling pve game with a (since we not are at vt 12 yet) possible mmo endgame kind of thing at vt 12.
Look the game failed due to some very poorly designed content, mind numbingly boring loot, zero power spikes all in all flat out bland boring.
So you make it to level 50, cool man let me do some end game dungeons and get some loot! Well you go into the first vet dungeon only to get owned as all the mobs are VR5 even if you did kill them the loot was for VR 5 so you cant even use the stuff. Then you notice that
even if you were VR 5 to use it it has 4 more dmg than your vr1 item.... and like then you tack on that it all doesnt matter anyways because EVERYTHING has absurdly low soft caps lol.
I really wanted to like this game I tried hard i was patient, in the end they seemed sooo obsessed to make sure you never got powerful the game just had no character growth and wasnt fun spaming the same 2-3 abilties over and over.
I like ESO.... a lot. But the VR implementation made me scratch my head. VRs were originally pitched as a form of end-game progression that was mostly horizontal (emphasis being on getting more skill points for more morphs, abilities, passives, etc...) I also thought the plan was to allow players to progress through VR in a variety of ways (pvp, adventure zones, group content, etc..). However, that really hasn't been the case.
This is Elder Scrolls... the end-game should be open with a variety of fun, engaging activities. Let players progress through VR their way. They already have the solo content in the adventure zones. They already have group based content in Craglorn (with hopefully more on the way). And pvp is solid - just needs some work (though, what pvp system doesn't?)
Who knows, maybe Zenimax has been shown the way and the end-game will become some awesome sandbox/sandpark/sandsomething in the near future.
I'm happy with the changes and I'm glad Zeni is trying to make VR more fun. Since they reportedly spent in the neighborhood of 200 million (even if it was half that), I would assume they wanted to have a lot of people playing and paying their subs. In today's market, to have a sizable population you must let a lot of players play solo.
The world where players can explore and gather should be soloable except for bosses, dolmens, and group dungeons. There can be plenty of grouping encouraged with more, bigger, and more rewarding dungeons. And "solo" dungeons should be solo-able, but challenging and easier with a friend or two.
The world (2 full factions worth) should not force grouping. That's crazy in today's mmorpg world. It also would drive away Elder Scrolls players if they can't solo at all after 50. I think they are trying to get this right for the console launch.
Implement encounter scaling in code. If it's one person, it scales to one person. If it is a group, it scales to the group.
See Guild Wars 2 for how this can be done, to accomodate ALL play styles with the same content.
Alternately, see Dungeons and Dragons which had hard difficulty selections at the start of their story instances as another way to do this.
The team that's making ESO don't seem to be versed in the more recent advancements in MMOs, and that seems to be part of the problem.
Take this Free to Play, make the necessary changes and let the game grow.
See SWTOR for how this can be done successfully.
If you want a gw2 like game just play GW2
If you want F2P pick one of the many F2P games out there.
The problem is people have options but choose to play a game that is obviously not for them and choose then tell everyone around about the big bad company that scammed them.
I'm confused, I don't ever remember the devs talking about ESO during pre-release as a hardcore, forced grouping game. Their target audience was always casuals from the beginning. It would seem YOU are in the wrong game, not the rest of us.
Originally posted by Crusades I'd rather contemplate things that actually matter. I clicked on this article simply to see what kind of stunt they would try next. Looks like pandering to casuals is the next item up for bid Bob.
I also don't like this idea. All through beta people were complaining about the lack of group content and so we got the veteran ranked areas where you are expected to group up.
Now they complain about the inability to solo said content and so the devs change it again to suit. This is a ever increasing circle of changes that will never stop now they are on this road.
As a player who plays ESO and loves it I am now at veteran rank 1 and just started the other factions content, I want some difficulty all from 1-50 it has been far to easy, I want it harder, I want to feel like I have worked and achieved that title in the journal.
I am a casual player also so please don't tar me with the same brush.
No, the idea behind veteran ranks was to allow people to explore the other faction areas and this was how they implemented it, only limiting it to 50+. Forced grouping was most certainly not the original idea for this content nor does it fit with this IP.
Originally posted by Crusades I'd rather contemplate things that actually matter. I clicked on this article simply to see what kind of stunt they would try next. Looks like pandering to casuals is the next item up for bid Bob.
I also don't like this idea. All through beta people were complaining about the lack of group content and so we got the veteran ranked areas where you are expected to group up.
Now they complain about the inability to solo said content and so the devs change it again to suit. This is a ever increasing circle of changes that will never stop now they are on this road.
As a player who plays ESO and loves it I am now at veteran rank 1 and just started the other factions content, I want some difficulty all from 1-50 it has been far to easy, I want it harder, I want to feel like I have worked and achieved that title in the journal.
I am a casual player also so please don't tar me with the same brush.
No, the idea behind veteran ranks was to allow people to explore the other faction areas and this was how they implemented it, only limiting it to 50+. Forced grouping was most certainly not the original idea for this content nor does it fit with this IP.
Aaah so this is where some of the hate came from. I don't think I've seen it stated so clearly. I haven't read this whole thread either so forgive me if this was stated.
Comments
Matt Firor ~ "We’ve implemented some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have commented on—you’ll be able to solo much more easily."
I seriously doubt that anyone at ZOS cares about "group-play" in ESO
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Yeah, that would have worked.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Considering Matt's background, this what I was hoping ESO dungeons were going to be like. I guess they still have a shot to redeem themselves with the Imperial City if they make it huge and multi-level:
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Preach on brother... The games of today ore practically programmed around this asshat mentality. (40's gamer here too)
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
I'm amazed that you think everyone is just like you......
Vet Ranks are nothing more than more levels to get through. It isn't end game. ZOS fucked up in it's design ... simple as that. They implemented a ladder system that was too long and tedious and now are fixing it. It killed players from leveling alts which is a very bad thing for an mmo.
If you want difficulty within the open world leveling path go off and solo public dungeons and do group dungeons are appropriate levels without stacked run throughs. The primary defense for keeping VR difficult originates from player epeen ... players who inevitably play fotm staff builds which aoe burns everything down easily no matter how difficult it is (notice that the vast majority of these builds are centered around DK and Sorc). You already see DK players dropping their class after some nerfs. DK is STILL the most powerful class in game for pvp and pve. It can tank and aoe dps better than any other class yet fotm players still jump ship because they can't instant win as fast as they used to. The only reason why you don't see people leaving the staff build bandwagon is because it is still the most effective build in game regardless of class. If it gets nerfed for a stamina weapon surpassed staff you will see the majority of these players changing instantly to that weapon and taking the class proven to mathematically mesh the best.
These are the worst sort of players for an RPG. Their character identity means nothing to them. They do not play the game. They play a spreadsheet.
Who seriously wants mmo game change based upon fotm fast leveling grinders anyway? That would be the worse possible choice. The game needs something akin to a lt/champ/boss ranking for mobs so players have choices but trash should be trash ... not raid buffed level encounters which was what VR was like for many classes and builds. Something had to be done and this is the first step. If ZOS fucked it up so badly the first time why do you think they would get it right the second time? Are these players also delusional along with ignoring this is a TES game and not an Elitist Jerks style multi-tiered raid game?
There are fundamental, overarching problems in ESO atm and the main issues should be addressed and talked about yet everyone simply whines over each individual change instead of thinking about the greater improvement of the game. The July letter clearly mentioned that several system changes are being considered to address the bigger issues related to end game and Vet Ranks yet this is ignored and the cries over one single change while ignoring the reasons for it continues on. The issue isn't so much the game as the child-like, narrow minded arguments that continue without purpose or reason.
You stay sassy!
Your right about this, completely spot on. Everyone wants whatever game they are currently playing to be like some other game they are no longer playing......
Mystery Bounty
Being an older gamers and now turned Dev, this is what is going on. I'm not saying all these games are awesome, but they could be better. If we had games like Asheron call 1 and DOAC, a lot of the gamers today would quit. There are way to many people who are anti social these days. This is the main issue, I think. I also have seen this after 15 years or running guild. I see less and less people wanting to group and/or voice chat.
I remember in AC, we all grouped and gave stuff to one another. Man those were the days, sad that MMO's are turning into one big solo fest .
ESO is not a PVP game.
In GW2 you can help out your fellow players and easily cross servers to do it.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You can't blame the gamers only in this. Yes most players want to play solo, but most new games have no reason to group. That is a Dev issue IMO. Give more of a reason to group and players will. But not forced grouping.
Basic questing with a story is designed to be done solo really. It is a personal story told to each individual and doesn't mean the same to everyone. So I have no issue with this part of the game being and staying solo. The problem is that gamers level so fast now that dungeons don't mean anything anymore while leveling. That is a design issue.
ESO had a concept that sounded like it would work. But they failed to stick to it because they couldn't complete the first Adventure zone in time and their dungeons were just way too short. They forced everyone to level via VR questing. If you force anything on anyone, they will complain, then quit. As I have said, if the Devs stuck to 3 viable options for end game VR leveling, PvP, dungeons and 50+/50++ as intended. There would be no issue with the VR questing difficulty IMO.
I don't think that players are the only ones to blame for the way new MMO's are presented.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I'm amazed that you think everyone is just like you......
I'm amazed that your not in agreement when someone says they are amazed that people still play ESO. If people are still playing it, that is amazing.I also don't like this idea. All through beta people were complaining about the lack of group content and so we got the veteran ranked areas where you are expected to group up.
Now they complain about the inability to solo said content and so the devs change it again to suit. This is a ever increasing circle of changes that will never stop now they are on this road.
As a player who plays ESO and loves it I am now at veteran rank 1 and just started the other factions content, I want some difficulty all from 1-50 it has been far to easy, I want it harder, I want to feel like I have worked and achieved that title in the journal.
I am a casual player also so please don't tar me with the same brush.
Still like playing ESO. In most mmo's my gf and I like to level together. Sometimes due to circumstances rl one is going a bit ahead of the other. But if can we try leveling together.
The part about that Zenimax promotes group play with vt ranks allmost made me cry. ESO and promoting group play? Not going together at the moment.
Small example. Entering reapers march. Still. Me and my girlfriend. I cannot see you. Ok back to malabal tor and try again. Nope still not see you when entering Reaper. In the end we discovered the reason. I had finished the first quest, she not. Walking a bit on the road and passing the first quest area and we could see eachother again.
Due to all the solo instanced world of ESO at the moment (you need to be on same quest part to can see eachother), promoting group play with the current state of the game is not even a funny remark.
Like Olgark allready mentioned. We love the game too. But it is a mmo so let us level together, even if one of us is a bit ahead of the other. Now we have the feeling it is a solo leveling pve game with a (since we not are at vt 12 yet) possible mmo endgame kind of thing at vt 12.
Look the game failed due to some very poorly designed content, mind numbingly boring loot, zero power spikes all in all flat out bland boring.
So you make it to level 50, cool man let me do some end game dungeons and get some loot! Well you go into the first vet dungeon only to get owned as all the mobs are VR5 even if you did kill them the loot was for VR 5 so you cant even use the stuff. Then you notice that
even if you were VR 5 to use it it has 4 more dmg than your vr1 item.... and like then you tack on that it all doesnt matter anyways because EVERYTHING has absurdly low soft caps lol.
I really wanted to like this game I tried hard i was patient, in the end they seemed sooo obsessed to make sure you never got powerful the game just had no character growth and wasnt fun spaming the same 2-3 abilties over and over.
I like ESO.... a lot. But the VR implementation made me scratch my head. VRs were originally pitched as a form of end-game progression that was mostly horizontal (emphasis being on getting more skill points for more morphs, abilities, passives, etc...) I also thought the plan was to allow players to progress through VR in a variety of ways (pvp, adventure zones, group content, etc..). However, that really hasn't been the case.
This is Elder Scrolls... the end-game should be open with a variety of fun, engaging activities. Let players progress through VR their way. They already have the solo content in the adventure zones. They already have group based content in Craglorn (with hopefully more on the way). And pvp is solid - just needs some work (though, what pvp system doesn't?)
Who knows, maybe Zenimax has been shown the way and the end-game will become some awesome sandbox/sandpark/sandsomething in the near future.
ESO's problems can be summed up with five letters.
F I R O R
I'm happy with the changes and I'm glad Zeni is trying to make VR more fun. Since they reportedly spent in the neighborhood of 200 million (even if it was half that), I would assume they wanted to have a lot of people playing and paying their subs. In today's market, to have a sizable population you must let a lot of players play solo.
The world where players can explore and gather should be soloable except for bosses, dolmens, and group dungeons. There can be plenty of grouping encouraged with more, bigger, and more rewarding dungeons. And "solo" dungeons should be solo-able, but challenging and easier with a friend or two.
The world (2 full factions worth) should not force grouping. That's crazy in today's mmorpg world. It also would drive away Elder Scrolls players if they can't solo at all after 50. I think they are trying to get this right for the console launch.
The amount of bullshit in this post is too damn high. A PvP-centric game doesn't have levels. Stop making excuses
I'm confused, I don't ever remember the devs talking about ESO during pre-release as a hardcore, forced grouping game. Their target audience was always casuals from the beginning. It would seem YOU are in the wrong game, not the rest of us.
No, the idea behind veteran ranks was to allow people to explore the other faction areas and this was how they implemented it, only limiting it to 50+. Forced grouping was most certainly not the original idea for this content nor does it fit with this IP.
Aaah so this is where some of the hate came from. I don't think I've seen it stated so clearly. I haven't read this whole thread either so forgive me if this was stated.