I don't mind "endgame" as much as I mind any kind of elitist concept that makes it more than it really is: just another kind of leveling-up grind that may or may not be fun.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
we raid to kill the unkillable.
it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.
Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.
The mistake was comparing it to chess which has a mind-blowing number of possibilities rather than 10 learnt by rote.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
It should be about the journey, not the destination. That's what I think anyway. I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.
Well for some odd reason MMOs are jus tthat way, still plenty of people just like you who dont like it, but we still get this edngame crap.
The last time I really enjoyed the journey (other than SWTOR which for all intents and purposes was a single player game) was in vanilla wow. I made a lot of friends along the way due to the relatively shallow levelling curve and the requirement to group for certain content (and the lack of cross-server dungeon finders etc).
By the time I hit end-game I wanted to group up and raid just to have a laugh with mates. Failing did not matter, we all laughed at the idiot who messed up and tried again.
Originally posted by TorgrimWhy has this obselete gameplay been so popular,
Question is a fallacy if it is popular and current. Majority of people like it and pay for it. That's why its current. (BTW im not a fan of the model, but that's just how it is).
I would disagree for the following reasons: -
I have never seen any figures to support that argument. The retention levels in most mmo's that offer it suggest otherwise (again I cannot back that up with figures).
I know this is mmorpg.com where reality is skewed but in World of Warcraft there is still (what is it now 9.2 million) people paying for that kind of content.
Hundreds of thousands of people still bought wildstar accepting that the game had endgame as a major feature.
Retention: People still burnout, You cant pin that directory to "I don't like endgame"
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
It should be about the journey, not the destination. That's what I think anyway. I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.
Well for some odd reason MMOs are jus tthat way, still plenty of people just like you who dont like it, but we still get this edngame crap.
The last time I really enjoyed the journey (other than SWTOR which for all intents and purposes was a single player game) was in vanilla wow. I made a lot of friends along the way due to the relatively shallow levelling curve and the requirement to group for certain content (and the lack of cross-server dungeon finders etc).
By the time I hit end-game I wanted to group up and raid just to have a laugh with mates. Failing did not matter, we all laughed at the idiot who messed up and tried again.
I remember those days. Precious times.
For me as well. I wouldn't say it was camaraderie because that is excessive, it was just a bunch of people who enjoyed each others company and did not mind if someone was a loose link, they would carry them. These days no one knows anyone and if you screw up you are kicked.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
That's exactly why I like the modern definition endgame. You answered your own question. The addition of new items that make the older ones less appealing keeps people striving to obtain them and get stronger characters and keeps them subbed to the game, that is why this is popular. If I'm progressing through the hardest content to get the best gear available then I've gotta be ready for when they add even more challenging content with more gear (that makes the old gear less valuable obviously.) The whole experience of conquering said content with my group and being rewarded is a great feeling.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
we raid to kill the unkillable.
it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.
Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.
Raids are not a chess game - they are puzzles.
Puzzle Definition - a GAME, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.
Chess Definition - a board GAME of strategic skill for two players
Much stronger AI opponent????
Similar to WoWs tiered raiding levels, chess programs are designed to play and varying levels of difficulty to challenge people. I believe though his reference to much stronger AI opponents is at a one on one level where we'd as a single entity would be crushed hence his term "between our characters (plural)"
No, if raids were chess games with super strong AI, nobody would complete them as chess programs can beat chess pros with ease, and the number of chess pros Raiding is exceedingly small.
It would be an interesting exercise to gather 20 of the top 100 chess players in the world and collectively pit them against the current strongest chess engine. Remember that even the strongest chess engine in the world does not have a 100% strike rate against humans.
Again Raids are group puzzles - once figured out, most raiding guilds have them on farm status in no time.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
we raid to kill the unkillable.
it's not about the loot, it's about the chess game between our characters and the much stronger AI opponent.
Gear comes and goes, the endgame remains the same. We love this consistency. Some of us hate change.
Raids are not a chess game - they are puzzles.
Puzzle Definition - a GAME, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.
Chess Definition - a board GAME of strategic skill for two players
Much stronger AI opponent????
Similar to WoWs tiered raiding levels, chess programs are designed to play and varying levels of difficulty to challenge people. I believe though his reference to much stronger AI opponents is at a one on one level where we'd as a single entity would be crushed hence his term "between our characters (plural)"
No, if raids were chess games with super strong AI, nobody would complete them as chess programs can beat chess pros with ease, and the number of chess pros Raiding is exceedingly small.
It would be an interesting exercise to gather 20 of the top 100 chess players in the world and collectively pit them against the current strongest chess engine. Remember that even the strongest chess engine in the world does not have a 100% strike rate against humans.
Again Raids are group puzzles - once figured out, most raiding guilds have them on farm status in no time.
Equating raids to chess is just beyond wrong.
Have you been to Karazhan?
If you think you can refute everyone's opinions in one neat little post, it probably means you are A) arrogant and too arrogant to realise you are wrong.
If you know how much work and skill need to unite tops guilds to raid the toughest open-world bosses then so call instance "endgame" with LFR is a fun joke.
It not only dance with boss and collect gears but also build the trust between player and unite or deal with rival guilds.
Only few player with real skill able to do it , remind me the old guild masters .
RPG not only about skill to dodge the boss's attack but also skill to social with other , able to build up army of players to over come the challenge.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you who love this kind of gameplay love it?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Why do you like endgame?
It should be about the journey, not the destination. That's what I think anyway. I find the standard end-game gear grind tedious beyond comprehension.
It should be about the journey only as long as that journey is deep, lengthy and meaningful. I am one of the biggest detractors of old school MMO design as I often state people look through rose tinted glasses at the past. Many of the elements of old school MMO's are horrible game decisions but the one thing they got extremely right was that it took a LONG time to reach level cap. I want an MMO that takes the hardest of the hardcore at minimum 6 months to reach but I'd love to see an MMO that took years to reach max level.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I'm pretty sure most players never played the same mmorpg games for years. So you won't find a lot of people that love raids/dungeons or pvp endgame.
I played WoW from 2004 to 2013, and at the beginning it was just a leveling game. But after a while, you understand that a mmorpg start at last level. I only love endgame, I hate leveling .
And this is the mentality that grants us the crappy games we have. Single player linear crap to max in a free weekend then play the lobby game "wait for the dungeon queue" to open up. When the term endgame started being a common term used among mmo gamers is when the quality of the genre really diminished.
No kidding. Reemi, seriously...an mmorpg "starts" at last level?! So all that time spent leveling through the multitude of areas, seeing all the sites and stories that the developers did (or at least we hope they did) put long hours of careful work to craft for your enjoyment benefit, as you plan out the future tactics you'll use for your character when planning their build as you go...is all a waste?
You may think that way, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that is NOT a universal rule that everyone "understands" as you put it, or even believes in.
I remember buying this 6 foot tall cat tree at Petco once. It had the sisal rope, the hanging toys, plush carpeting, three levels and curved rests. Thought that this thing would be a cat's dream playground. Got it home. The cats were all excited by the big box. I said wait, I'll open it soon and you will see what a wonderful toy I just got you. I carefully extracted the tree from the box and placed it in the center of the room for them to see. I look around and not a cat to be seen. They were all in the box. I said the tree is the gift, not the box. They thought the box was the best thing in the world.
Kids are very much the same... sometimes it's their own inventiveness that makes even the simplest of things entertaining.
That's were games have gone wrong... instead of just letting us do our thing, they think they are compelled to tell us it's the cat tree we're supposed to be playing with, not the box that it came in. Why? Why should we see raiding as the game? Why should we see leveling as the game? The game should be whatever we make it to be. It's our cardboard box. That toy inside the box is cool and all, but not nearly as cool as the box itself. I suppose that is what all the sandbox hoopla is all about... getting back to the cardboard box... but if you are given a cardboard box, isn't it now the toy you ignored before? What I am trying to say is, sand is only cool if you discover what you can do with it on your own... being told that it can do something sort of takes away from the coolness of it. The cardboard box was cool because it wasn't the gift to begin with... they made it into a gift. Games should be that way. What we make of them, not what others envisioned it should be. People should find their own magic cardboard box in each one instead of being told that it is there.
I think there was a time when raiding was what the majority wanted to do with their end game. But with the number of vets in the genre that have seen it done it and have the purple armor, it's time as the only real choice of what to do has long past. If games want to keep people around after the levels run out they're going to need to figure out something new. Raiding is not the be all end all thing to do anymore.
How about small group random dungeons? It works pretty well in D3 and other ARPGs.
Originally posted by Gorwe I fully understand that some like other things than I do. I also understand that it's MY CHOICE whether to touch or not to touch aforementioned endgame.
With that said, modern MMO "endgame" is yet another bland, boring thing invented by, you guessed it, World of Failcraft. WoW was, is and will be just a bland game that tried to mix Everquest with Diablo. It's such a travesty! Diablo itself is really bland and nonsensical and you try to correlate it with EQ? Lol! The sad fact is, it worked for them. Big time. And now we have a bunch of MMOs that don't even resemble MMOs. Endgames with NO impact on the world(!), NO interesting player encounters, on rails, etc.
I could've liked endgame of yore. I HATE endgame of today.
Diablo is 100x more fun than EQ for me .. and of course it works because your preference is not shared by most in the market.
And no ... i am not interested in a world ... I am interested in fun game modes like those in Diablo. (Don't tell me you don't know that diablo is fun for many).
Originally posted by Robokapp why are we talking about diablo on an MMO forum? I've been waiting for a good city-building game since Sierra made Poseidon, but this isn't the appropriate forum to discuss that... edit: MMOs need player-made cities like SWG had.
but with which level of graphic?
I'm currently playing a mmorpg with plenty of housing and furnitures customizations is so heavy I renamed it ram destroyer online.
Why? I've never played an MMO where there were player-made or guild-made cities that I found them to be at all exciting. Most of them were just endless rows of empty buildings and player shops where nothing at all ever happened.
I so much hate the word endgame, why are endgame 2-3 dungeons you have to do hundreds of times to get the gear you want then it will be obselete when the next update goes live.
Why has this obselete gameplay been so popular, why do you like this kind of gameplay?, I mean as soon as you got everything you have you have start all over again, everything you have invested, time, money are gone.
Comments
Endgame mostly means that most of the content is provided at max or near max level. Think of the leveling process training with story.
Gear grinds are pretty close to non-linear progression...what people cry for over an over.
I don't mind "endgame" as much as I mind any kind of elitist concept that makes it more than it really is: just another kind of leveling-up grind that may or may not be fun.
The mistake was comparing it to chess which has a mind-blowing number of possibilities rather than 10 learnt by rote.
I remember those days. Precious times.
I know this is mmorpg.com where reality is skewed but in World of Warcraft there is still (what is it now 9.2 million) people paying for that kind of content.
Hundreds of thousands of people still bought wildstar accepting that the game had endgame as a major feature.
Retention: People still burnout, You cant pin that directory to "I don't like endgame"
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
For me as well. I wouldn't say it was camaraderie because that is excessive, it was just a bunch of people who enjoyed each others company and did not mind if someone was a loose link, they would carry them. These days no one knows anyone and if you screw up you are kicked.
this "endgame" is an illusion, exile
That's exactly why I like the modern definition endgame. You answered your own question. The addition of new items that make the older ones less appealing keeps people striving to obtain them and get stronger characters and keeps them subbed to the game, that is why this is popular. If I'm progressing through the hardest content to get the best gear available then I've gotta be ready for when they add even more challenging content with more gear (that makes the old gear less valuable obviously.) The whole experience of conquering said content with my group and being rewarded is a great feeling.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
If you think you can refute everyone's opinions in one neat little post, it probably means you are A) arrogant and
too arrogant to realise you are wrong.
If you know how much work and skill need to unite tops guilds to raid the toughest open-world bosses then so call instance "endgame" with LFR is a fun joke.
It not only dance with boss and collect gears but also build the trust between player and unite or deal with rival guilds.
Only few player with real skill able to do it , remind me the old guild masters .
RPG not only about skill to dodge the boss's attack but also skill to social with other , able to build up army of players to over come the challenge.
Who among you here able to do such thing ?
It should be about the journey only as long as that journey is deep, lengthy and meaningful. I am one of the biggest detractors of old school MMO design as I often state people look through rose tinted glasses at the past. Many of the elements of old school MMO's are horrible game decisions but the one thing they got extremely right was that it took a LONG time to reach level cap. I want an MMO that takes the hardest of the hardcore at minimum 6 months to reach but I'd love to see an MMO that took years to reach max level.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
No kidding. Reemi, seriously...an mmorpg "starts" at last level?! So all that time spent leveling through the multitude of areas, seeing all the sites and stories that the developers did (or at least we hope they did) put long hours of careful work to craft for your enjoyment benefit, as you plan out the future tactics you'll use for your character when planning their build as you go...is all a waste?
You may think that way, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that is NOT a universal rule that everyone "understands" as you put it, or even believes in.
Where's the any key?
I remember buying this 6 foot tall cat tree at Petco once. It had the sisal rope, the hanging toys, plush carpeting, three levels and curved rests. Thought that this thing would be a cat's dream playground. Got it home. The cats were all excited by the big box. I said wait, I'll open it soon and you will see what a wonderful toy I just got you. I carefully extracted the tree from the box and placed it in the center of the room for them to see. I look around and not a cat to be seen. They were all in the box. I said the tree is the gift, not the box. They thought the box was the best thing in the world.
Kids are very much the same... sometimes it's their own inventiveness that makes even the simplest of things entertaining.
That's were games have gone wrong... instead of just letting us do our thing, they think they are compelled to tell us it's the cat tree we're supposed to be playing with, not the box that it came in. Why? Why should we see raiding as the game? Why should we see leveling as the game? The game should be whatever we make it to be. It's our cardboard box. That toy inside the box is cool and all, but not nearly as cool as the box itself. I suppose that is what all the sandbox hoopla is all about... getting back to the cardboard box... but if you are given a cardboard box, isn't it now the toy you ignored before? What I am trying to say is, sand is only cool if you discover what you can do with it on your own... being told that it can do something sort of takes away from the coolness of it. The cardboard box was cool because it wasn't the gift to begin with... they made it into a gift. Games should be that way. What we make of them, not what others envisioned it should be. People should find their own magic cardboard box in each one instead of being told that it is there.
great story
EQ2 fan sites
How about small group random dungeons? It works pretty well in D3 and other ARPGs.
Diablo is 100x more fun than EQ for me .. and of course it works because your preference is not shared by most in the market.
And no ... i am not interested in a world ... I am interested in fun game modes like those in Diablo. (Don't tell me you don't know that diablo is fun for many).
but with which level of graphic?
I'm currently playing a mmorpg with plenty of housing and furnitures customizations
is so heavy I renamed it ram destroyer online.
Because it is close enough to a MMO for many players?
In the metaphysical libertarian sense obviously... People on this site need everything explained to them.
It's online only. Based around a colorful skinner box and it even had an auction house. It would be hard to argue it's not at least close to a mmo.
Yeh ... it has
- instanced dungeon gameplay similar to that in many MMOs
- the same meta theorycrafting seen in many MMOs (builds optimized for dps for example)
- same kind of class qq-ing whenever a skill is nerfed
.. the only difference is that it is not pretentious and ditch the quest texts for the grind, and ditch the persistent world which few used.
Why? I've never played an MMO where there were player-made or guild-made cities that I found them to be at all exciting. Most of them were just endless rows of empty buildings and player shops where nothing at all ever happened.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Endgame should take years to get to