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"Vet Content is Too Hard" - Upcoming changes

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  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920
    Originally posted by Datawarlock
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by bcbully

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/117132/veteran-system-changes-preview

     

     

    One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

     

     

    MMO devs everywhere need to read this and realize solo players do not want our arms twisted to force us to group.  

     

    I haven't bought this yet, waiting on Imperial Edition to be cheap, which may or may not ever happen.  I'm just happy solo players are putting our collective foot down on nonsense like this.

    They do make games for your kind you know. They're called single-player, and they're perfect for you 'solo players'. If you need some sort of global chat to wave your epeen around in while you play, just start a group chat in AIM or something. All that soloing of a game that was dumbed down specifically so that you could feel like you accomplished something all by yourself, then delude yourself into believing that the rest of us aren't standing there at the same mountain top with you. Solo Players.... a psychologists next best-seller novel.

     

    Cry all you want.  There are a lot of us, and as people get even snottier, there will be more, because no one likes being forced to play with douchebags.

     

    But gloating aside:  If MMO devs do not want solo players to play their games, all they have to do is say upfront that their games aren't for solo players.  But they do want us to play.  Or rather they want us to pay them money.  Then they want to do all kinds of shady crap to try to force us to play in ways we never wanted to play.  Zenimax got bit for it.  Hope all devs do as well.  They want to make a group game?  Fine, but don't try to get our money then annoy us to death.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719

    I think this thread went through a time warp. You guys are seriously discussing whether solo content should exist in MMOs? This bus didn't just leave the station... it's already at the destination. It got there about 10 years ago.

     

    And once again... there is a difference between good hard gameplay and content that has obviously been designed for solo play (shit... a lot of this vet content tells you it's clearly "solo" only by mousing over the instance door... that IS a clue) that is artificially made just longer by a simple multiplication formula.

     

    It has nothing to do with hard vs, easy or, as some of you like to call it, "smartened up" vs. "dumbed down." It's all about entertaining and worthwhile vs. boring and pointless.

     

    Craglorn = entertaining and worthwhile... VR content in the artificially jacked up "other faction" zones is boring and pointless. That content was designed for 1-50 gameplay. Scaling it up for VR play was just a quick kludge... and it shows. Making it "easier" is just a band-aid on the kludge that at least, brings the content back in line with its original intent.: solo content.

     

     

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920
    Originally posted by Iselin

    I think this thread went through a time warp. You guys are seriously discussing whether solo content should exist in MMOs? This bus didn't just leave the station... it's already at the destination. It got there about 10 years ago.

     

    And once again... there is a difference between good hard gameplay and content that has obviously been designed for solo play (shit... a lot of this vet content tells you it's clearly "solo" only by mousing over the instance door... that IS a clue) that is artificially made just longer by a simple multiplication formula.

     

    It has nothing to do with hard vs, easy or, as some of you like to call it, "smartened up" vs. "dumbed down." It's all about entertaining and worthwhile vs. boring and pointless.

     

    Craglorn = entertaining and worthwhile... VR content in the artificially jacked up "other faction" zones is boring and pointless. That content was designed for 1-50 gameplay. Scaling it up for VR play was just a quick kludge... and it shows. Making it "easier" is just a band-aid on the kludge that at least, brings the content back in line with its original intent.: solo content.

     

     

     

    You would think it had left the station, but these devs admit to 'encouraging' people to group with basic MMO armtwisting.  The Secret World has the same, Guild Wars 2, at least when I played, made droprates higher if you grouped, negating the entire concept of just showing up and killing things with people, and even Wildstar seems to be doing a bit of armtwisting with its mob density and those boss mobs scattered all over. 

     

    Therefore, I conclude these devs want our money but not our solo playstyle.  And I'm sick of it.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843

    UPDATE - 7/7

     

    Veteran Rank Changes

    Phase 1 of our Veteran gameplay changes begins with this patch, the first in a series of changes we'll be making to improve the post-50 experience overall. We've lowered the difficulty of the second and third alliance zones to bring them more in lines with zones from 1-50. You'll be able to continue soloing through them more easily than before, though they'll still be challenging. We have much more information about Veteran System changes on the way, so make sure to watch our site for updates.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Originally posted by Iselin

    I think this thread went through a time warp. You guys are seriously discussing whether solo content should exist in MMOs? This bus didn't just leave the station... it's already at the destination. It got there about 10 years ago.

    And once again... there is a difference between good hard gameplay and content that has obviously been designed for solo play (shit... a lot of this vet content tells you it's clearly "solo" only by mousing over the instance door... that IS a clue) that is artificially made just longer by a simple multiplication formula.

    It has nothing to do with hard vs, easy or, as some of you like to call it, "smartened up" vs. "dumbed down." It's all about entertaining and worthwhile vs. boring and pointless.

    Craglorn = entertaining and worthwhile... VR content in the artificially jacked up "other faction" zones is boring and pointless. That content was designed for 1-50 gameplay. Scaling it up for VR play was just a quick kludge... and it shows. Making it "easier" is just a band-aid on the kludge that at least, brings the content back in line with its original intent.: solo content.

     

     

    +1

    And no matter how quickly you can complete the others factions content it will still be the other factions content.

  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Member UncommonPosts: 633
    I love this game. But I was so close to just unsubbing because VR content was like pounding my head into a brick wall. I actually have unparked my main and now am enjoying the game again. Its still tough as hell, and I usually cant kill 3 at once wo banner being up but I can now progress. So anyone qqing about it being easy mode needs to get off their skirt and stick builds and try something non op.

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • kresa3333kresa3333 Member UncommonPosts: 64
    I just wonder where those companies keep  finding  those designers
    taking the must famous open world game and making another typical mmo its really sad
     who asked for this veteran feature its 1 of the worst features i seen so far in a big mmo
     and now that they woke up from the bubble they been living in gonna be fun to see them trying to fix it

    instead of giving once again boring leveling system with many boring quests they should have tried following skyrim path in a mmorpg like way 

    mmo with auto scaling  open pvp zones open pve zones open group zones etc... go where u want do what u want kind of feeling 

    dungeons raids battlegrounds WvWvW are not a bad thing but it should be something all over the game not something u rush towards skiping the rest like its nothing 

    there are many problems in doing this the right way but its 2014 so many years from the first days of mmorpg industry starting days and its about time to progress 

    i sure even if it wont be totaly open world like skyrim ( because mmorpg is not single player game ) it can still give a very free kind of feeling if done right and become the next big thing

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire
    So anyone qqing about it being easy mode needs to get off their skirt and stick builds and try something non op.

    Over the past few days, just as a test, I started two brand new alts: Sorc + resto and a NB + bow both playing in the AD 1-15 zone. After all the tweaks to enhance stamina builds, even in the early levels, the sorc just facerolls through content the NB has to work at.

    The VR tweak is a start, but those playing without a skirt and stick will continue to be the red haired stepchildren for a while yet. But at least they can do some of the VR content now...that's something I guess.

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,353

    Just started playing again after a long break. I am at V4 Right now and from what I can tell, the game has improved substantially.  The Vet difficulty nerf is not major, though I have certainly noticed. At first I was skeptical, but it has streamlined mob kills functionally, and its just a bit smoother grinding through vet content. I think it was a good move, though I was doing fine at the higher difficulty. 

     

    Vet dungeons are still challenging and PvP still needs  some work/incentives to bring back the players. Overall I see this game improving further. If it was at 6/10 at launch - It is at least 8/10 right now.

    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire
    So anyone qqing about it being easy mode needs to get off their skirt and stick builds and try something non op.

    Over the past few days, just as a test, I started two brand new alts: Sorc + resto and a NB + bow both playing in the AD 1-15 zone. After all the tweaks to enhance stamina builds, even in the early levels, the sorc just facerolls through content the NB has to work at.

    The VR tweak is a start, but those playing without a skirt and stick will continue to be the red haired stepchildren for a while yet. But at least they can do some of the VR content now...that's something I guess.

    Maybe try different of builds?

    I mean I have 4 lvl 24 character and I know I need some more work/respec to be done with my DK as that's my weakest of the 4, my bow wielding NB does better then my sorcerer and my Templar seems to be the strongest.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273


    They have gone the wrong way about it though, they made veteran easier, rather than make NB and Temp better at PvE. That means Sorcerors must be breezing through vet content now in comparison.

    Rather than worry about stamina builds they should have first insured that all classes could create a good build for vet. After that look at stamina builds, which in my book if they only worked well in PvP would be fine.

    Expecting one build to see you through from start to end game and all PvP is a bit much. :)

  • OriousOrious Member UncommonPosts: 548

    You guys realize this is Phase 1 of 3? We don't know what Phase 3 is going to be like. Potentially Phase 3 will make the change of difficulty a non-issue. But the Dungeons are still the same difficulty eh?

    Wait until QuakeCon...find out their thoughts on Phase 3...stop whining until then.

    image

  • tharkthark Member UncommonPosts: 1,188
    Originally posted by Olgark

    So after all the moaning from so called fans of the game about the lack of group content to play with their friends in guilds they are now going to make the group content easier so they can solo it.

    The veteran ranks are not a leveling experience they are there just as a icing on the cake, the leveling experience is ended when a player hits level 50/ After that you just increase the softcap on stats and skill points.

     

    I wonder how long it will be before those asking for easier content in the veteran ranks will be latter on whinging about it being all solo content in a MMO. This is what happens when devs cave in and listen to the players.

    Agree ..:)

    Al these players have also already quit the game, and now we are getting forced Changes based on players that no longer plays the game...

     

    Please ZENIMAX ..Stick with your vision

     

    All my friends that left ESO left because the "lack of grouping"  .....And now they are making it even more solofriendly..

    Maybe they should consider nerfing Craglorn aswell. I'm sure several has been whining about that aswell :)

  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    For me the problem wasn't vet level difficulty, it was vet level boredom. There is no story after 50.. just go out (in "enemy" lands")and run boring quests with no backstory.  I got halfway through the first vet area and quit.

     

     

    Same with me I had no issue with the challenge i like my challenge dammit! I just had no desire to go down the path they want me to.vr content was nothing more then a cheap half ass excuse to slow players down so they could get some REAL end game content going.I still cant get over how they falsely advertised this VR content as this solo end game content hahah

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Member UncommonPosts: 2,610

    Sounds more like WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH!!! to me.  

     

    To their credit though, I don't believe Zenimax should have designed their veteran content the way they did.  

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Originally posted by pantaro
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    For me the problem wasn't vet level difficulty, it was vet level boredom. There is no story after 50.. just go out (in "enemy" lands")and run boring quests with no backstory.  I got halfway through the first vet area and quit.

     

     

    Same with me I had no issue with the challenge i like my challenge dammit! I just had no desire to go down the path they want me to.vr content was nothing more then a cheap half ass excuse to slow players down so they could get some REAL end game content going.I still cant get over how they falsely advertised this VR content as this solo end game content hahah

    Maybe both of you should have come to Cyrodiil. You know the largest portion of the game... I know this may sound like Im being a prick, but really you need to think about this. Cyrodiil is literally a huge part of ESO. From the quest to the exploration, to the keep battles, it's literally the center piece of the game. 

  • GreenthinggGreenthingg Member Posts: 23

    I never had troubles soloing the VR content, well maybe anchors, but anyways all I had to do is type some sentences in region chat and people came to help in no time, more often than not.  Heck I could even solo most world bosses within a couple of tries, using a healing staff as secondary weapon.

    No, what made me unsub, is I got burnt questing.  I wanted to level via PvP.  When I first tried it we had a repeatable kill quest and I was having fun getting XP while PvPing, then they nerfed that quest to a daily.  Big mistake.

    That game was being sold with that big PvP zone and then you were forced to grind grind quests to get to enjoy not being assraped by a VR10 in PvP.  So people like me didn't find fun being assraped for NOTHING XP wise and forced to PvE untill our eyes bleed.  Mind you, the difficulty in VR zones was welcomed, IMO.  Now that they remove it, gives me even less incentives to play again.  Was a disapointment that game has been.  Stopped at VR4 and waiting 'till they add more PvP content and PvP levelling.  Never will do another boring quest grind again (and in the meantime I'm not playing any MMOs, playing Nosgoth and Chivalry, real 100% PvP games).

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    people can ask for challenging content on forums all they like but in the end wow was right. Easy is what really sell.

    That means you don't understand what is WoW.

    WoW has an easy leveling curve and an hardcore end game, so ESO copied exactly the WoW formula in that sense.

    Problem with ESO is that unlike WoW the difference between Leveling and End Game is abyssal.

    Leveling is stupid easy, End game is stupid hard, while WoW makes this transition a bit smoother particular with different difficulty level for End Game content (Dungeon Normal-->Dungeon Heroic-->Raid LFR--->Flex Raid---Raid 25)

    I never bought ESO after playing Beta because leveling was too easy (I was going on autopilot), but I did play some dungeons and they were kinda hard for a regular dungeon, that sort of level of difficulty you can find it in a WoW Raid, you don't expect to find it in a Dungeon.

    In the end making end game more easy won't save this game, simply because it is too bland and not TES enough, I own every TES game since Arena (TES 1) but I didn't buy this piece of crap.

    TES has always been a quality product, ESO is not, it is just a marketing gimmick............. shame on you Bethesda.

  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Member UncommonPosts: 633
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by Olgark

    So after all the moaning from so called fans of the game about the lack of group content to play with their friends in guilds they are now going to make the group content easier so they can solo it.

    The veteran ranks are not a leveling experience they are there just as a icing on the cake, the leveling experience is ended when a player hits level 50/ After that you just increase the softcap on stats and skill points.

     

    I wonder how long it will be before those asking for easier content in the veteran ranks will be latter on whinging about it being all solo content in a MMO. This is what happens when devs cave in and listen to the players.

    Agree ..:)

    Al these players have also already quit the game, and now we are getting forced Changes based on players that no longer plays the game...

     

    Please ZENIMAX ..Stick with your vision

     

    All my friends that left ESO left because the "lack of grouping"  .....And now they are making it even more solofriendly..

    Maybe they should consider nerfing Craglorn aswell. I'm sure several has been whining about that aswell :)

    um I still play. Just becasue it was easy to stick and skirt users doesnt mean it was easy. I can now actually progress in the game. But I guess you just want the game to fail.

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527

    I very recently moved on as well, but the nerfing of the vet content was just one part of it.  What actually was the final straw was a sinple quest in Grahtwood.  Bosmer Insight.  It seems like your normal quest, BUT you get a special reward at the end, a buff you can renew at any time that lasts an hour.  Thing is (especially at the very early part of it where you choose) the game does not tell you what buffs you will get.  If you choose anything but the snake, you just hurt yourself badly.  I did even worse -- I went Tiger.

    Tiger is the only one of the three (Wolf, Snake, Tiger) that does NOT give you 5% extra DPS.  If you want to be doing time trials and such, you really should have Snake.  Snake is -5% damage taken +5% DPS.  This is even worse in that it is on one side only.  I am from the Pact side and this came up at VR 8.  If I had been AD then I would have not only realized, oh I just messed this character up, early enough to re-roll, but the buff would be far easier to get without pesky monsters getting in the way, and it would be a buff I could have kept up during the whole process of play.  Pacts are actually at a significant disadvantage in that this quest is on the AD side.

    The third one was the fact that there is a very bad bug/exploit on Funnel Health right now for Nightblades.  It is taking its damage from the nearest damage number to when it first ticks.  This is very often a low damage dot giving you like a 10 point healing set of ticks instead of the 150 or so I expect.  The problem is that it also works as an exploit if you time a higher damage ability correctly.  Someone specd/geared a little different from me was able to consistantly get over 1,000 point heals from this ability.  There are high damage abilities you can play towards that make Funnel insane now.  So you can either exploit it, or it can get in your way as you specifically avoid trying to exploit it.  This has been going on for about 2 weeks now without being fixed.

    Thing is even avoiding using the exploit and using the ability as often broken, the content is now very easy, even as the most underpowered class.  Funnel being busted make me not able to satisfactorily  fill my role as a healer in a group, and that buff just made me pull the trigger.

     

  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,558
    "We thought you would enjoy being kicked in the nuts when you reached max level.  We were wrong."

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,207
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by pantaro
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    For me the problem wasn't vet level difficulty, it was vet level boredom. There is no story after 50.. just go out (in "enemy" lands")and run boring quests with no backstory.  I got halfway through the first vet area and quit.

     

     

    Same with me I had no issue with the challenge i like my challenge dammit! I just had no desire to go down the path they want me to.vr content was nothing more then a cheap half ass excuse to slow players down so they could get some REAL end game content going.I still cant get over how they falsely advertised this VR content as this solo end game content hahah

    Maybe both of you should have come to Cyrodiil. You know the largest portion of the game... I know this may sound like Im being a prick, but really you need to think about this. Cyrodiil is literally a huge part of ESO. From the quest to the exploration, to the keep battles, it's literally the center piece of the game. 

     

    And that's the problem.

  • moondragomoondrago Member UncommonPosts: 47
    too late i  already quit  .... wont  waste  any more money on this  game  ... zenimax  you shouild have  done this  sooner .. WTF  no  full server  AH  ... that   was   reaallly  stupid  .. too little  to  late  seeya

    its a GoOd dAy to diE !!

  • BelgaraathBelgaraath Member UncommonPosts: 3,204
    Originally posted by moondrago
    too late i  already quit  .... wont  waste  any more money on this  game  ... zenimax  you shouild have  done this  sooner .. WTF  no  full server  AH  ... that   was   reaallly  stupid  .. too little  to  late  seeya

    Its so immature when folks whine about the fact that they don't play because something should have been delivered sooner. I mean, if they are giving you a feature now that you wanted at release, what difference does it make? Should they keep the game static and not improve it? Thats a rhetorical question by the way.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • tharkthark Member UncommonPosts: 1,188
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire
    Originally posted by thark
    Originally posted by Olgark

    So after all the moaning from so called fans of the game about the lack of group content to play with their friends in guilds they are now going to make the group content easier so they can solo it.

    The veteran ranks are not a leveling experience they are there just as a icing on the cake, the leveling experience is ended when a player hits level 50/ After that you just increase the softcap on stats and skill points.

     

    I wonder how long it will be before those asking for easier content in the veteran ranks will be latter on whinging about it being all solo content in a MMO. This is what happens when devs cave in and listen to the players.

    Agree ..:)

    Al these players have also already quit the game, and now we are getting forced Changes based on players that no longer plays the game...

     

    Please ZENIMAX ..Stick with your vision

     

    All my friends that left ESO left because the "lack of grouping"  .....And now they are making it even more solofriendly..

    Maybe they should consider nerfing Craglorn aswell. I'm sure several has been whining about that aswell :)

    um I still play. Just becasue it was easy to stick and skirt users doesnt mean it was easy. I can now actually progress in the game. But I guess you just want the game to fail.

     

    You could get a friend and progress just as it was intended :) The VR content was never ment to be solo friendly , but It's no longer an issue we have to argue about since all the solo players has already won this aswell..

    No..I do NOT wan't this game fail, but there is PLENTY of other NON  players doing a fine job with all the trashtalking here and on other forums that really wants it to fail for unknown reasons, they should stick with their vision, not some trashtalking whiner that refuses to Group just because It was all solo up until 50.

     

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