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So Why Do You Want Trinity?
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Good thing that you bring the solo play in. Now, profession locked roles IMO are a HUGE disability for the players that want to use their reflexes, like myself. I have a decent computer, decent monitor, I see shit happening and for one reason or another I can't prevent it from happening. It makes me feel like my hands are tied together. That's how trinity makes me feel.
Not always can you find people to team up with. Sure, I play mainly with my girlfriend, but when you face a 20k HP mob as lvl 8 its a bit tough to gun it down with 2 DPSes. WildStar, the most recent MMO released idk why but the first few maps are us and the NPCs. I can't find a tank nor a healer. Unless we play a role that neither of us likes we will most likely fail and not because we are bad players, nop. The game doesn't give me the tools to defend myself BECAUSE it relies on having a healer and a tank around my dps toon to help me out. Having another similar like me is a handicap. Yes, if I or she plays a healer or a tank even i'm pretty damn sure we'd take that mob with close to no effort but that is not the point. I don't get freedom this way. Trinity for me is nothing more than limitation.
Gw2 may have imperfect non-trinity system but at least it gives me the tools to defend myself against any foe. Again, before someone just reads my last liner, I do agree that Gw2's non-trinity system is NOT perfect. There are things and encounters they could've done better.
P.S: They could at least come up with companions that fill the roles for when you can't find an actual player. Maybe this way it would feel as less of a handicap. But the way it is atm, it is nothing more than limitation.
Yes! Exactly! But how many MMOs do that right now? And from what we've seen how many will do it? I think the answer to this question is close to none. You don't need trinity "locks" to have roles. Everybody should be able to do anything IF they can manage it IMO. Sniping medic? Why the hell not? It is a game. Yeah well, I won't be healing people away from me, but I can easily change to sniper or medic, depending on situation. That is what I want. I want hybrid classes with tools and means to defend themselves. Not being a dps and gimp myself against a stronger foe because the game doesn't allow it. Or being a healer and gimp myself unless i find someone to do the killing for me.
I'm guessing the "CC" or "support" role is just not as popular. The "support" doesn't include healers of course. While, like you, I would like to see more of this in mmos. I think at the very least you should have tank. dps. healer. Some people like myself love tanking and dps. Others love healing. I know a lot of healers who couldn't stay long with GW2 because they felt their position was essentially eliminated. I also love the coordination of a good group (trinity based mmo).
Of course this is just my opinion.
Nope. Very simple fix for this "problem" that most trinity games use.....stances.
Well as some know I am also a die hard GW2 fan and it's the game I spend 80% of my gaming time in.
As for the trinity well I played wow for many years and I always loved playing healer so I am in the mix with the trinity thing but here is my list of pros and cons, and I want to say that my pros to no trinity is only based on my GW2 experience since I have never played another game without the trinity.
Pros.
SPVP- man no trinity in gw2 is awesome in spvp, I have 8 lvl 80s (one of each) and here you can twitch and turn your spec around and try time after time to make the best spvp class out there. I have never played a mmo were it takes this amount of skill in spvp to actually be good at it. In wow it was gear based, not all but much. Running around with your mage and getting a backstab that kills you in one hit isn't skillbased pvp. So the no trinity shines here were you can make your classes anyway you want.
TIME - there is no waiting for a tank or a healer to do a dungeon or anything else, you can play any dungeon you want with any spec that you want (except for the "LFG Zerkers only, lvl 80") but I don't care about that since this is not a GW2 only fenomana, it's the same in every game like no druid tanks or minimum gear score requirement. Sure most dungeons aren't that hard in GW2 anymore but then again it's been around for 2 years, it's the same in every game.
SPEC/CLASSES- I love that there is no "you have to have this spec cause in this patch you do more damage otherwise you can't join" You have more ways then one to play DPS can be more tanky build or more healing build, just more ways to play.
SKILL- this is a pro and con cause like I said, it takes alot of skill to be good in a game were you depend on your own skill and not a healer to protect you or a tank to hold aggro.
Cons.
CLASSES - I really miss playing a healer, it's fun and I always loved it same goes for people who love to play tank. But as for GW2s no trinity is not really true to a 100% since I have a guardian and when you tweaked it as many times as I have I can say that it's a full time healing class if you want to. I can keep my entire group alive most dungeons so if you really really want to you can go for the Tank, healer, dps in dungeons in GW2 if you want to and my guild always want me along to heal them.
PVP - now again I can only speak for the games I have played ALOT so don't bash me to hard by making this a WOW vs GW2. The same thing that makes gw2 more fun in spvp is were it also loses some charm. I loved playing healer in battlegrounds in wow. If you were in a good group the dps would try to save you as a healer since you help them alot in battle by giving them health.
I could do a list that would be 300 pages long and sell it as a book that no one would buy about the pros and cons of the trinity but in the end it all comes down to one sentence.
"Play the style you like the most"
This is a fair assessment. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
Thing is, Gw2 has all of this. People just choose to ignore it. The reason is simple - people always find the shortest path to get to somewhere. No its not lazyness, its how we're built. E.g. Why would I go support and try to hold CC on the mobs when I can get 5 merciless berserkers and shred everything inside? That is why people hate where Gw2 headed. It doesn't mean there is no support or no heal. With the latest additions to elementalists they drop water fields and blast them like crazy. I had a 12 minute fight in WvW against elementalist the other day, he kept healing himself with AoE heals. Thankfully passing by strangers let us fight xD but yeah the point remains. If you want to heal, you can heal, just swap some traits that boost your healing, put some healing power gear and you are a healer. But do you know what I find amazing? With few clicks of your mouse you can become some crazy damage dealer with decent self-survival.
What is wrong with Gw2's non-trinity system is their encounter design. It makes little justice to all the systems they have going on, and that is sad really. But it's understandable. There are not many games, i actually can barely think of fantasy RPGs with characters without a trinity. Maybe you can find lacking trinity in EVE and works great but the EVE combat is very very specific. There is a saying that the good artists copy and the greatest steal. ANet couldn't do that. Guess we'll see what EQ:Next would do, given they can see all the faults in Gw2.
Beelzebobbie - "Play the style you like the most" - Wise words. Although as I said, I have trouble going toe to toe with stronger opponents because those encounters are designed with healer and tank in mind. It feels like the game is screaming at me "get a tank to gather the mobs and the mobs and a healer to keep you alive, otherwise gtfo" - pardon the language. Thus, trinity games do not let me play the style I like the most. Gw2 does however. I guess this is why I like it so much despite the obvious faults it has. It is a good game for me.
Companions/mercenaries is a failure when it comes to Trinity. It will kill the most important thing about the trinity, socializing. This has been seen in EQ1, EQ2 etc... They're just another solo player game these days because of just that, mercenaries.
Early days in EQ1 if you could not find a group and your class was not one that could solo, (warrior or rogue for example) you switched character to the one that could. Necromancer, Magician etc... Warrior and Rogue could solo but with a ton of downtime. They had to fight blues or light blues.
Luckily for you, I read somewhere that they're gonna make Wildstar easier to cater to the solo crowd. (the screaming about the latest patch or something?) They're taking a side now like most other MMOs. This is good for you and your girlfriend, soon you don't have to worry about needing the tank or healer or whatever.
There is only 1 game on the horizon if it ever will get made that has stated their target audience before hand. Pantheon. They will focus on groups and harder difficulty like in early EQ1. This is where it will be successfull if it releases. Solo players tend to jump from game to game because the grass is always more green on the other side of the fence and it's easier to move when alone.
I didn't say that mercenaries should be as powerful as a real player of the same level did I now. Gw1's henchmans were great. It was PERFECTION.
Now, I can sense a note of anger towards me in your post but let me put your mind at rest. I equally don't like games being dumbed down to become borderline retarded. No, i'm a player who likes challenge and action combat games. Guess this is why every now and then I go to solo Arah in Gw2. However I must say that some encounters are simply impossible without certain classes in your group. Requiring certain classes, especially for a dungeon and something alike takes time, sometimes a lot of time. Waiting for a healer or a tank and just poking your nose until you get them, that's a personal hell for me. I can play only 2-4 hours a day, having to wait for a quarter of that time and do nothing productive really pisses me off.
Don't blame the solo players too much though. Sometimes they just look for challenge. A challenge that will take them evidently more time than if they were with a group.
Also I disagree completely that trinity improves socialization. Sure maybe at launch when nobody knows what they are supposed to do in a dungeon, they talk. Later on though it becomes like a task. You team up, whine a bit that there are no tanks/healers, eventually start the fight, everybody knows what they are supposed to do, in case you don't you get wooed and called a $%$#^# noob and if you are terribad - kicked. I wouldn't call that a social experience.
I agree that trinity doesn't help much on the socialization. I think the downtime between fights served that purpose. The problem is that there is no more downtime in games, you are back on your feet in 5 secs and ready to take on the new group of mobs.
Yeah I'll have to agree with you on that one. In Gw2 the most socialization happened when I was walking around talking to people, not fighting. Although, a huge chunk of conversations went over on TeamSpeak. It's a lot of offtopic but I think games should have integrated VoIP with option to mute certain people, otherwise the Call of Duty kiddos would talk all about "Yo' momma"
I won't say I WANT Trinity, but I don't mind it. Trinity sprung from Dungeons and Dragons emergent gameplay due to players optimizing their party makeup for combat and adventuring. You could have a party of 6 rangers in D&D, but unless you have a lenient DM, you probably won't be having a good time. Want to make sure you have someone around to disarm traps and pick locks? Better grab a rogue. Want to keep adventuring without lugging your uncouncious teammates around? Bring a healer. Sick of the mage dying because he is on the front line? Bring a warrior. Huzzah the trinity!
As emergent gameplay, you can see games like EVE/UO where people become dedicated healers (rechargers? Forget what they are called in EVE), some go tanky and some go for melee dps, some ranged dps. You could ALMOST swear organized combat in these trinityless games were built to promote the trinity. That's because its emergent, the players trend to it due to its optimized approach.
So do we NEED Trinity? Nope. Do we WANT Trinity? Maybe, but when you freely pick roles, the trinity tends to emerge when attempting higher difficulty content. Is the Trinity bad? Nope. Is the Trinity Good? Nope.
I think it's much better to handle the use, or lack of use of the Trinity on a game by game basis. The problem is more modern games have severely limited the scope of what it means to fill one role or another. Good games diversify their roles. I'll name EQ and WoW here as the two I am familiar with. In both cases "Healer" was 1 of 3-4 possible classes. "DPS" could be filled by most classes and "Tank" could be filled again by 3-4 classes. The AWFUL use of Trinity is when some garbage game comes out and advertises 4 classes one obviously a tank, one obviously a healer, and two DPS choices.... blech...
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Why do I want trinity or why does the genre need trinity?
I want trinity because without it the game is no longer an MMO, lacks depth, lacks strategy, has no point in teamwork, encourages solo play over group play, etc. etc. etc. There's a million reasons to have the trinity.
Not having trinity makes the game another hack and slash single player console style RPG with no point or purpose. The only reason not to have trinity in an MMO is to try and be "different". This is how you end up with failed experiments like GW2 where they are having to backtrack and make all the classes more trinity-like to try and salvage what's left.
Basically, without trinity, there can be no MMO. It's now been proven. So in all honesty the discussion is moot.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Before GW2, I liked the idea of no Trinity. After GW2... not so much. I love everything else about that game and play it regularly even now, but I simply don't do dungeons anymore. Their weird pseudo-trinity of Damage/Support/Control, as opposed to the standard trinity of Damage/Tank/Heal makes every dungeon unbearably boring. Dodging is the only interesting thing going on- everything else just facerolling on the keyboard doing damage.
In Trinity games, I NEVER play dps because it is so exceptionally boring. I love heals and tank all the way. In a game without Trinity, everyone is the dps; meaning I can't escape that role. Bleh.
I will say this- if GW2 ever changed up and went Trinity, I would probably lose my job because of how much dungeoning I would do on my Guardian lol.
That makes two of us. I play a Guardian too, and If I could actually tank or heal like a real Guardian, I'd be jobless haha.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I completely agree. Trinity is emergent in Gw2 as well for the real tough encounters but what I love about it is that its not forced. There is no "obvious" tank and no "obvious" healer. What you have is freedom of choice. You can be DPS now and the next minute you can tank the crap out of enemies. Also you have self-survival utilities that just keep you in the fight without having to rely on others.
I'm not saying that all content should be soloed but, 5 players that know their stuff are better than 5 players with predefined roles IMO.
In GW2 you have to have teamwork aswell belive me I tried to do a dungeon yesterday that I had never done before and it was hell in the beginning but then when I explained that me and my friends didn't know the dungeon the other guys started to explain what to do and in the end it all worked out fine (took almost 2 hours). Teamwork is never based on the trinity atleast not what I have experienced.
Teamwork is based on contents difficulty and the social parts of an game has nothing to do trinity. Doing a dungeon in wow that everyone has done 100s of times before doesn't require any socialization at all the same goes for no trinity games. But if you compaire GW2 with WOW then GW2 offers more options. They have added more content to do solo like questing, vistas, skill points and most world bosses have been grinded down so many times that everyone knows what to do and you don't require any group to complete you just take part and help out and do your part. However all these points are optional you don't have to do them solo you can always bring friends, so how is it wrong to have more options in your gameplay?
You still have dungeons, fractals, SPVP were grouping isn't optional if you want to complete (except for some dungeons that can be soloed). In all these you require alot of teamwork otherwise you will fail / lose.
And while we are on the subject of "no brainy shooter" then why don't try to beat a team in competetive counterstrike:GO without any teamplay or strategies it will end up in zero points and zero kills and alot of sitting around watching your other teammates die.
My point isn't to tell you that you're wrong cause you are also right in many ways, you can play counter strike :GO like a no brainer shooter and just have fun. You can also do many many things in GW2 solo if you want to and I agree with you that the social part of an mmo is very important it's why I love mmos, I love being on skype with my friends playing with others and getting to know them and making new friends, I completly agree with you that these games are made for alot of socialization.
Difference is I have never like forced socialization were I can't play the game if I don't have anyone to play with. I play with my friends everyday almost and usually were on skype together or teamspeak if we are many, but somedays I just don't feel like talking to people I just wanna be alone and play and I still want to play GW2 so isn't great that I can do both?
I like options that the only point I am trying to make and today most people like options aswell.
I'm not opposed to playing a game without the trinity. I just haven't come across one yet that keeps me interested or that I find enjoyable. Guild Wars 2 actually made me long for the trinity. It really felt like ANets love letter to people that enjoy DPS characters. Whether it's dungeons or dynamic events. As you can guess, I am not a DPS person.
I enjoy the game but every time I get into it I feel like 'This game wasn't made for me.' I love playing support, crowd control, or healing classes and Guild Wars 2 just doesn't scratch that itch for me, at all. I am aware of the different 'support' builds in the game. They just don't feel like actual support at all. It feels like I am actually hurting my teammates when playing them.
Am I opposed to getting rid of the trinity? No, not at all, it just needs to be done right. I haven't played a MMORPG where that has been done yet.
Nothing stops you guys from tanking. The Gw2 AI usually goes for the player with most toughness. Wasn't like that at launch but you can tank if you want to tank, same goes for healing. The fact that community choose to go the berserker path speaks for itself and again, I'm not saying Gw2 is having the best non-trinity system - far from it. Distract yourself from associating non-trinity with Gw2. Wouldn't you have more fun if you had more freedom of a choice? Taking down enemies that you shouldn't be able to just because you are good with reflexes?
All my post above I've been suggesting encounters with mini-games in game where everybody has to do something that is outside of their class's "role". The least it should spark a conversation about "Who would do it out of all 5"
Think that would be great for MMOs.
Really my bottom line is that, there are so many MMOs nowadays that most of them are ghost towns in the first 50% of the game. Hell I feel this way in WildStar right now. I have yet to see someone wandering about the world. See I'm hoping for "someone" what's left for that "someone" to be a tank and/or a healer. With lower populations I think a hybrid approach is necessary.
And it is stupid to punish people for their choice of a class. A common problem with the trinity is that in the group finder DPSes are punished. I'll give TERA as example. Me and my girlfriend started as Archer and Mystic, for those of you that don't know thats AoE dps and semi-heal semi-buffer. We had to queue for 20+ minutes before actually getting in a dungeon.
After that we switched to Lancer and Priest. Needless to say the dungeon finder matched us in less than 2 minutes while the estimates were 5-6 minutes.
There is no such thing in Gw2. Sure you may see a "8k+ AP ZERKER ONLY OR GTFO" groups in LFG, or "SELL P1 20g" but that's only because those groups tend to take longer to get filled. I always find people to team up with in less than 5 minutes in Gw2. Compared to the 20 I had to wait in TERA that's paradise.
Dudes you can, I play every class and sure we all now that I am the leading promoter of GW2 but I do have lots and lots of experience in the game and also like to play healer and tank (just not in wow cause I suck at tanking) and you guys can play a 100% healing gaurdian with staff and mace/shield. I do this everyday almost every button I can push heals my group friends. It also works in fractals so zerking isn't the only option in this game and not everyone plays that way either. The only true dps I have is my Mesmer and I only use it in SPVP because it's so much fun to play there.
Warrior lvl 80 Tank build with hammer / mace/shield
Engineer lvl 80 Survival build for SPVP with turretts (rocks!!!!)
Thief lvl 80 also true dps real glascannon (forgot about it cause I hate playing it)
Gaurdian lvl 80 100% healer
Elementalist lvl 80 survival healing class mostly for support in WvW
Necromancer lvl 80 minion master with huge survivability mostly for soloing stuff when boared
Mesmer lvl 80 like I said SPVP dps class
Ranger lvl 80 survival build
you can play any class you want in anyway you want, we have played like a trinity with tank, dps and healer and it works well in dungeons. Just because some people zerk through most dungeons doesn't mean it's the only way to play it.
And I also agree with all of you who says that GW2 no trinity isn't perfect cause it really isn't and needs improvements. As a true wow healer I would also love to see the zerker builds go away in dungeons and maybe the will but I don't think I would ever wanna go back to the traditional Healer/Tank and 3 DPS gameplay. I love to play the game in the way I want to with my own build, nobody whines about my gearscore or not doing enough DPS.
When I played wow there was just to much whining about everything in every dungeon / raid and sure there were lots more socialization in wow then in GW2 with random players but usually never any good just like in counter strike which almost invented the whining in online gaming.
Maybe a more hybrid gameplay trinity were every class can do everything like tanking/healing/dps and you could switch when every you like just not in combat, this middle thing trinity I could see work.
This what he said ^
I've soloed giganticus lupicus, a boss that sometimes wipes bad pugs. Why? Because the combat allows me to. Trinity or no trinity, if you are good you can do anything, I love this. I take the whole encounter as a dance
He does something, I react, repeat until the kill. Make a wrong step, step on his feet or something - die. It's no toy but it gives me great pleasure. It's the only encounter that makes me work hard 100% of it. If i stop to type something I'm as good as dead. If I go behind him, his attack swing doesn't hit me because I moved away. No trinity game except TERA does that. In any other game the mob swings and it hits me, no matter how far i am from it is ridiculous. And why is that? Because the devs have it easy
- "Don't worry team, they won't cry about it because its very easy with a healer friend"
That's borderline lazyness on the devs part. And that is what people pay subscriptions for because there is no better.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I understand what your saying, every game isn't for everyone. I was just trying to say that you can ba 100% healer in gw2. Tanking is harder imo, keeping aggro doesn't exsist in the same way as in traditional mmos but it can be done. But I understand we all have our favorite flavors I am just trying to make a pizza out of GW2 cause everyone loves pizza
But I do agree with you that dungeons were alot more fun in WOW then they are in GW2 but I feel that it's because Anet didn't make that great dungeons compaired to Wow but I don't feel it's the no trinitys fault. I feel if they could make a few new dungeons with harder content then the dungeons in GW2 would be more fun even if I still think they are ok as they are now.