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So Why Do You Want Trinity?
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I found trinity combat not very exciting. Maneuver, CC, and getting out of situation abilities are more important in a game like D3 even if you are mainly doing DPS. That make the game more fun to me.
"Wanting people to know their job and be accountable for"? You don't need trinity for it. If someone is not pulling their weight (not doing enough DPS, or die too much ...), just kick him/her.
You can keep believing, Naruto, but that doesn't make it true. The fact of the matter is that your initial multi-hypothesis of drivel does nothing to facilitate a discussion. You aren't giving meaningful criticisms, input, or discussion points. You flat out say that the system you prefer is better and don't ask or leave an open talking point. You're only looking to defend your own position against everyone else to try and sway them to what you think. The problem is, this has been rehashed over and over ad nauseum and doesn't serve the public or participants in anything beneficial or noteworthy except a devlolution to a flamewar and eventual lock. Just stop making these threads until you learn how to frame a discussion of talking points rather than opening one with how right you are and how wrong everyone else is.
i dont want it per se but it is how most mmo's work so i kind of expect it... i probably would prefer tankless mmo's though.
with tanking comes long queues and major egos so i'd rather see them gone and i think that may even make things more fun for healers aswell if they'd get some more action trying to keep up whoever got aggro. ofc healers would have to rely on big threat dumps but i think they might just like it.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
I just wish group sizes weren't so tiny and there were more support roles. Hate being pigeonholed into only focusing on threat, damage, or healing. Loved my friar from daoc that could both off-tank and off-heal when needed while bringing the buffs.
There's no place for that kind of class in groups these days. At best, you might be more valued in a role if you can cc a bit.
+1
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Trinity contributes to community. Simple as that. If you have to ask me to explain it then you wouldn't get it even if did.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
@Storm said that before you, 2 guys after that debunked it. And since I'm all up for examples, how is the current trinity in WoW doing any community service with all the gear checks and builds and whatnot? IMO this is a fallacy. I've met many people that I dare to call friends in Tyria, while people on this forum would have you believe that you are unable to say a word to anyone because of action combat.
Wouldn't you agree that in an age of action combat (i get that and acknowledge the fact that some of you hate the action combat!), for those that actually enjoy it, trinity is nothing more than blast from the past? That as if it shouldn't be there? To me being class locked is a limitation. I think dunk duck dodge move and block are more important combat features than passive evasion statistics and the likes. idk maybe its because I grew up with Counter-Strike Lineage 2 and Diablo that I'm a sucker for action combat but really I think its about time MMOs to move ahead and leave those wretched passive abilities behind.
In this age with those internet connections I think its more than okay to have the people move away themselves without handholding them and forcing them to rely on passive abilities. Instead of having to click away I have to cross fingers that the RNG would let me evade an impending attack. It really is old and IMO it has to go.
How does that make any sense of you? Or you are so used to that style of combat that you don't even notice it? That's what I'm trying to figure out.
IMO every class can have a role even without trinity. Zergfests happen even in trinity games, especially if the team is inexperienced
All it takes is one bad pull to get things messy. Wait a little bit more and god forbid if the group wipes. Then the fingerpointing happens. And when that happens the amount of "Yo' momma" jokes is too damn high. Which is not a fault of the trinity system i agree. I'm merely stating that trinity system doesn't solve some of the issues you guys give it credit.
And to answer those that attacked me and my topic, I'll say it again, I much rather see people giving examples of why trinity is/isn't good rather than saying a memorized phrase and be done with it. I'm all up for discussion.
I don't like trinity but I like roles.
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I personally don't like the trinity. Not so much the idea of the trinity itself, but more the mechanics used in most games to force the trinity to be there.
Tanking through things like taunts for example has always been ridiculous to me. Like really, wtf is the logic in "Oh hey this rogue his stabbing me repeatedly in the face, but hey that other guy over there just yelled at me I better completely ignore this rogue and go try to kill that other guy instead!" I really dislike these sort of instant-aggro mechanics where it basically allows for no real teamwork to manage threat so long as the tank is able to instantly pull all the hate. I would much rather see a system where a tank, if ignored, truly does become the greatest threat rather than taunt gimmicks.
ohh yes becouse spamming world chat with LF XXXXXX yyyyyyy+ GS makes community alive ;p
ohh and you can always say its becouse it was tank or healer that everyone dies
as for others i dare you go play Gw2 now go to worm or teq as a zerg you will fail it no matter how many zerkers you bring
and how gw2 is different from games with trinity?
in other games they are looking for specific classes to max the dps or heal or tank (becouse one is better than another) and if your playing something else well reroll or your not welcome in the party
but there is easy solution for this, just stay away from this mentaly ill players and do the stuff with your friends or guild
trinity req strategy and tactics? its a joke right?
all the content in trinity based games = tank and spank and evade red circles
And yet the games that use the 'Trinity' are more popular, and for those that do play them, a lot more fun than those games that don't support it. They are also the most iconic games in the industry, which should be a huge clue right there.
WoW, SW;TOR, FFXIV;ARR, Eve Online, Planetside 2, Everquest, just off the top of my head, all use the trinity, and all were, or are, the most popular games of their genre.
But this is a tired argument that has been rehashed so many times, and the answer always comes out the same, because players prefer it.
oh, and for people who don't think that Eve online and Planetside 2 have the trinity in game, then perhaps might want to take a closer look at those games, Planetside 2 does after all have combat medic and engineer, one heals/revives people, the other heals Max's and Vehicles, Eve Online has logistics, which are often a crucial factor in any fleet engagement
soo becouse there are more players that prefer trinity means all games must have trinity?
and if a game dont have trinity is a piece of crap? becouse these ppl say so?
I think your forgetting something incredibly relevant, MMO's are a business, and the first rule of business is 'supply and demand' so, because there are more players that prefer trinity, that does indeed mean that the majority of games will inevitably cater to it, but don't take it to heart, its not personal, its just business.
I try to stay away from using the word trinity.. That word as been abused and redefined so many times, no one knows what the hell it is anymore.. I like to say games are either role classes, or no class.. A role is precisely what it says >> you play a role.. No different then most other games, even the professional ones.. Quarterback? Strong Foreward? Goalie? Pitcher? These are all roles and positions a person plays on team events.. Now you do have games like tennis & golf, which do not have roles, because they are not true team sports.. They are individual sports where the players does everything.. With the exception of some events like a golf scramble where you normally have players that play a role..
Now it appears to me over the years, most people want to move away from TEAM games and go to solo centric roles.. People want to join up on teams, but not to fulfill roles, but to operate as 5 solo players to achieve a group goal.. GW2 comes to mind.. EQ Next seems to be heading that direction as well..
Personally, I would like a game that has 66% soloing ability, and 34% group defined skills (roles).. GW2 was a good start, as I enjoyed much of the solo play it allows.. I disagreed with EQ's original design where some classes like Warrior were crippled to solo much of anything.. BUT I want to see games that has class defining skills and/or roles that can be played, but NOT required.. Such as the Druids ability to kite.. Necro fear kiting.. Bard song.. Monk pulling.. Enchanters mezing.. disguises and morphing.. etc etc.. There are and should be more to character development then just tank, heal and dps.. AND NO, I do not want to see a player that can do EVERYTHING.. Choices should be made and lived with.. I honestly don't see Peyton Manning changing roles and becoming a wide receiver next year..
Wait wait. Did you just say EVE has a trinity? As a long-time EVE player and supporter you should know better o.O
Trinity is when 1 character is to only one role. In eve I can be anything as long as I have the skills and the right ship. If that is trinity, then Gw2 has trinity as well by that logic. My whole argument is that trinity locks me and gives me no self survival skills unless I bring buddies around. In EvE i have to take care of my own survival at least. I don't know how Planetside is because I've never played it, but if we consider it a trinity shooter from what I've seen then the Battlefield series is somewhat trinity too just because there is a medic.
That's faulty logic right there IMO. The least, I can play EVE completely solo for the most part. I mean sure, I'll probably never see a titan class ship this way but, still I can do like 90% of the content with single character.
1) WoW allows off specs much like Eve...where you can only do one type of play well at a time.
2) try doing L5 missions, fleet battles, or well thought out runs without support ship, logistics, dps, and tanks. Each much like trinity has to be specialized and you are stuck in your class/ship till you get to a hanger.
When doing group PvE like incursions or sleepers, alliances have 1 tank, a few remote repairs and the rest focus first their damage.
I've never played healer, but as far as tanking goes, you gouldn't be more wrong.
If you think a tank is just standing there spamming combos, you're utterly clueless and have never tanked on a high level.
A good tank minimizes damage intake while maximizing damage output (and by consequence aggro). A good tank positions the mob and knows how to move it to allow the rest of his party / raid to up their game. I can't count the number of bad tanks who make sure they're standing out of the fire, while the melee dps has to wait because the back of the mob's in a puddle of poison/fire/whatnot.
I guess the OP's idea of tanking comes from "LFR".
Besides, if you've played TERA, you'd know Warrior tanking is more than "stand there and spam your combos".
EVE certainly have trinity roles. Just because you can solo doesn't negate that fact, you can solo in any game.
I beg to differ. Playing Rift in the open world Rifts feels much like a zergfest.
I really do love that the Trinity brings role play into the game (not in the sense of PnP 'roleplay', but in the sense of game play mechanics). Having a role to fill in a party based gameplay is great - but not when it is forced.
I also really enjoy the new games that have removed the trinity that bring a more open and forward approach to group play, allowing people to play more openly, and advance their character to how they see it in their minds. The only problem is the lack of a role, and I say it is a problem because it more often than not leads to chaotic, 'zerg' like gameplay.
There needs to be a happy medium, where players can have free reign over their class, and sustain themselves, but not in group combat. There needs to be systems like in FFXI like chain linking skills, and completing combos with your buddies, or something along those lines.
That way you can keep the solo player happy, without gimping the gameplay for them, but allowing the group players and group play in general to shine and be a powerful feature. I honestly thought that when GW2 first announced skill combos that it would be something like this. I saw videos of rangers shooting arrows through elementalists' fire and it blew my mind - the possibilities that it existed with these new mechanics that unfortunately didn't go as far as my mind had imagined.
If someone can pull something like this off, it will only be incredible - nourishing both styles of play, for different circumstances. I would never fight alone as I would with a party, and so if this was used in the creation of the classes and their skill sets it would work.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
You may want to take a closer look at the majority of MMOs on the market. Yes, positioning is important, it's important in any game that has combat, but it's not limited to the tank role. Furthermore, not only does positioning in these games tends to be fairly static (u learn the pattern, then repeat it), but the tank tends to have the most static positioning in most fights. Just look at FFXIV:ARR as an example of this. This is where the term 'tank & spank' came from, and it's very common in trinity games. indeed most fights involve the tank holding aggro and rotating his CDs properly, while the DPS & healers dodge crap and try to keep their rotations going.
I know this isn't how every boss fight goes, but it has become the majority. And no matter how you slice it, that's just what happens when you have a system based around strict roles. It's easy to understand, and you can romanticize it as much as you want, but it limits the combat to a pre-determined set of outcomes.
The reason most tanks feel like their job is the hardest, is because the majority of the responsibility is usually put on their shoulders. In most games the other roles get shared for the harder fights. If a healer isn't doing a good enough job, he's got another healer. If a dps isn't pulling his weight, he has # other people to pick up the slack. For pretty much all fights your tank has his 1 responsibility, which the entire group is aware of. If he messes up, everyone notices.
- TERA was a game that tried to diversify the roles a bit, and that's why you have classes like the warrior which were a bit different. Problem was, because it ultimately is still a trinity game, people still ended up getting shoe-horned into X class for X role because it was 'the best'. There's a reason warriors were not often played for a while, and needed adjusting.