Sandbox is just a blanket term to help generalize. As soon as you start using it to compare and downgrade other products for comparison you need to stop and reevaluate the conversation.
i personally haven't seen a lot of people claiming AA isn't sandbox and can fully state with major confidence, AA is a sandbox. Now is it as broad of a sandbox as SWG? No. It has a bit more themeparks than SWG and doesn't focus as much on community driven PvE.
Again the boy reason we use this terms is to generalize products for certain audiences to recognize them. Kinda like how you would call Enders Game a science fiction novel but also do the same for a Steven King novel in the genre of "science fiction". They are both under that term because publishers want to attract a similar crowd.
Theres plenty of talk on these forums about AA not being a sandbox, on the first and second page of the Archeage general forums for example, there are threads, yes that's plural. I guess selective reading.
Community driven PVE? We've already established everything in SWG was soloable. That doesn't even make sense.
I think you need to reevaluate what has already been established on the forums and this thread if you want to bring anything of relevance to the table.
I will agree that it's a blanket statement, that everybody wishes to meticulously define, therein lies the problem. It can't be both. You even say SWG is more sandbox with no real relevant points to say why, other than something that has already been proven false.
This misinformation is exactly why I made this thread. This is a common argument that uses a lot of bad logic, which you've perpetuated.
You know you are in a sandbox game when the first thing you say to yourself is "WTF do I do to get started" lol
The problem is, that's exactly how EQ started. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that EQ is a sandbox, there just wasn't the conveniences that we now enjoy in games.
Likewise, having a kick in the right direction to get you started does not make something less of a sandbox.
There's always going to be evolution in the way things are presented to us. This is what advances in technology and design affords.
You could still do a sandbox by throwing someone in the world and saying "here you go, piss off". But that doesn't mean it's the only, or best way to do it.
the issue with EQ was you couldn't do almost anything you wanted....you had farming and dungeons....dont even remember if there was a crafting system :P
The idea of a sandbox is that the world is yours, if you can take it...but I strongly believe that you know you are in a sandbox the minute you are in-game...if you dont see it from onset, it's not truly a sandbox.
AA doesn't just give you a kick in the right direction, as all the level 50 fans can attest to, things don't kick up until level 30....that's a bit more than a kick....
When I was dumped in Wurm, I knew it was a sandbox
when I was dumped in Xyson, I knew it was a sandbox
Same with Salem (is that the name of that game)
MO and DF, although not 100% sandboxy because of limitations, felt like sandboxes when you were dumped in them.
Rust (not truly an MMO) felt like a sandbox when I was dumped in it....in just underwear...and a rock...and people with rifles trying to kill me.
Being dumped in AA, did not feel like any of those experiences
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
I can't speak to SWG, never played it, but AA does not feel very much like a sandbox, at least as how I measure them which is against EVE, the only one I've played with any regularity.
I recently started a new character/account in EVE, to see how the new player experience went. I completed all of the tutorials, then ran the first Epic Arc Mission when they sort of direct you to. Upon completion of that, I literally had a moment where I went, "OK, now what do I do?"
The game provided no direction, didn't point me towards a single path, in fact, despite being an EVE veteran, I had to sit back and ask myself what I wanted this character to do.
You can't do it all in EVE, (well, at least not all at once or at the same time) so I chose the path of mining, and began training my skills towards it.
Now I did start off mining, and running mining missions, but I could have chosen so many other paths. I could have started a career as a market trader, or an explorer, or joined up in the Faction Wars, or perhaps Red vs Blue combat, found myself a 0.0 corp, become a pirate or a host of other tasks.
Perhaps the biggest difference with AA is I wasn't limited to specific areas in the world based on my "level"
AA has level appropriate content, you are expected to remain in a specific area until your level is high enough to move to the next region. EVE is really not like that. I could move out to null sec from the end of the tutorial. Now, could I take down the NPC's out in null sec, no, but with the help of my corp, or if I had a few friends with me, and yes, we could have beaten down the content even out in the wilds.
AA isn't like this, and staring you in the face is this well defined golden path of questing that takes you from place to place from the time you first log in.
I've always though sand-box is more of a feeling, and less based on specific features, and EVE feels much more like a sandbox than AA.
Now I like AA, (I enjoy questing btw), and I do appreciate that it has a wider variety of progression activities than most theme parks so it feels a bit sandboxy, but it is nothing much like EVE, at least IMO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's the MMORPG.com forums, logic doesn't typically do well here.
AA is a sandbox, however this is the holy temple for trolls & sandbox fans alike. There are a lot of sandbox 'purists' here, who believe anything that isn't 110% sandbox in features (no linear skill lines in a skill tree for example), doesn't count. If anything has even a small linear component to it, it's disqualified. Does it make sense? Nope. But that's how things are around here.
SWG is basically chuck norris on these forums. You just aren't allowed to point out the flaws. The games perfect because we said so, and anyone who says otherwise is a hater we didn't play 'the right' version, because we said so.
Shortly put, it's ignorance. And these forums have a ton of that. There's always a reason to hate on a game; some more than others, and AA is not immune. There's not a whole lot you can do to enlighten these folks. Most rational people know the game is a sandbox. It might not have all the sandbox features we want, but that doesn't prevent it from being one.
I dont think people are saying that AA is not a Sandbox, but its more of a Sandpark than a Sandbox. I got that feeling from the minute I stepped into the Beta. The game right away felt as a game on Rails. That bored me fast because I have played UO and SWG and I can be dropped in a random city in the game and learn my way. I dont need the rails because I been there done that. I think what the core problem is, is that the game is on rails until later into the game and you really dont get a chance to see it early. Most players who enjoy sandboxes enjoyed Starting somewhere and not having a preset path.
This, 1000 times this.
Was very turned off by the linear questing start.
Been playing Darkfall instead now, way more what I had hoped ArcheAge would be.
So you're saying that you can't just go out to some area with level appropriate mobs and farm without doing quests in AA.
Thats all you're saying by mentioning darkfall, because the only difference is that AA allows you to do quests if you want, and DF is only now in the process of writing up quests (they even asked the players to submit their own to be added to the game) for people that don't want to just go out and kill with no purpose other than raising stats.
OP, you clearly havent played the old games people are refering to as sandboxes. Go play it, UO and SWG are still there. Heres another example, last time i played UO a few years ago. I started up in minoc, mined my self enough to buy a small house. Went and placed my house, and like 10 people surrounded my house and told me if i didnt bow to them they would kill me. I just laughed at them and called them names, of course they killed me lol.
Last time i played SWG which was like 3 months ago, i went into Tant to get my self healed from a medic there training. Some one decided it was funny, and brought a Dragon to the town, which killed the whole town lol.
I havent played arche age, but from what i have see with the guys first impressions video, and what i have read its a themepark. If i looked a video as already stated, or read a story from some one starting the game, they are going to almost be the same story. As for those 2 stories i just told you, no one had them, but me.
I dont think people are saying that AA is not a Sandbox, but its more of a Sandpark than a Sandbox. I got that feeling from the minute I stepped into the Beta. The game right away felt as a game on Rails. That bored me fast because I have played UO and SWG and I can be dropped in a random city in the game and learn my way. I dont need the rails because I been there done that. I think what the core problem is, is that the game is on rails until later into the game and you really dont get a chance to see it early. Most players who enjoy sandboxes enjoyed Starting somewhere and not having a preset path.
This, 1000 times this.
Was very turned off by the linear questing start.
Been playing Darkfall instead now, way more what I had hoped ArcheAge would be.
So you're saying that you can't just go out to some area with level appropriate mobs and farm without doing quests in AA.
Thats all you're saying by mentioning darkfall, because the only difference is that AA allows you to do quests if you want, and DF is only now in the process of writing up quests (they even asked the players to submit their own to be added to the game) for people that don't want to just go out and kill with no purpose other than raising stats.
OP, you clearly havent played the old games people are refering to as sandboxes. Go play it, UO and SWG are still there. Heres another example, last time i played UO a few years ago. I started up in minoc, mined my self enough to buy a small house. Went and placed my house, and like 10 people surrounded my house and told me if i didnt bow to them they would kill me. I just laughed at them and called them names, of course they killed me lol.
Last time i played SWG which was like 3 months ago, i went into Tant to get my self healed from a medic there training. Some one decided it was funny, and brought a Dragon to the town, which killed the whole town lol.
I havent played arche age, but from what i have see with the guys first impressions video, and what i have read its a themepark. If i looked a video as already stated, or read a story from some one starting the game, they are going to almost be the same story. As for those 2 stories i just told you, no one had them, but me.
/big massive facepalm
First of all, that's not even the OP you're quoting, I'm the OP and I didn't type that. And we've already been over SWG ad nauseum, and so far I'm more knowledgeable than anyone on this thread about it. I'd wager it will stay that way. I practically invented that move you're talking about by dragging DJM to the MOP on the 3rd day of launch on eclipse (probably someone did it before me, but I invented it because I said so), much fun was had., it never died and stayed there until server restart with 245k out of 246k ham still left, such is life for something with 90% resists going against noob weapons. So no that story is not yours, surely not if it just happened 3 months ago. That's a fable we tell all SWG-preCU children, by subjecting them to it as often as possible.
And that story about UO could completely happen in AA, so not seeing the point there either.
AA is an MMO, and anyone that's stressing about the kind of gameplay they will experience in their first few days should probably reconsider playing AA.
Once you hit L50, which will happen very quickly, you have to have to amuse yourself pretty much. If you're expecting the game to provide you with "consumable content" after that point, you're in for a hard time. You'll have to set your own goals and figure out how you're going to attain them. There's no vast store of daily's and end-game raids to keep you amused, and there most likely never will be. Waiting for next month's "content patch" is not a thing in AA...
I dont think people are saying that AA is not a Sandbox, but its more of a Sandpark than a Sandbox. I got that feeling from the minute I stepped into the Beta. The game right away felt as a game on Rails. That bored me fast because I have played UO and SWG and I can be dropped in a random city in the game and learn my way. I dont need the rails because I been there done that. I think what the core problem is, is that the game is on rails until later into the game and you really dont get a chance to see it early. Most players who enjoy sandboxes enjoyed Starting somewhere and not having a preset path.
This, 1000 times this.
Was very turned off by the linear questing start.
Been playing Darkfall instead now, way more what I had hoped ArcheAge would be.
So you're saying that you can't just go out to some area with level appropriate mobs and farm without doing quests in AA.
Thats all you're saying by mentioning darkfall, because the only difference is that AA allows you to do quests if you want, and DF is only now in the process of writing up quests (they even asked the players to submit their own to be added to the game) for people that don't want to just go out and kill with no purpose other than raising stats.
OP, you clearly havent played the old games people are refering to as sandboxes. Go play it, UO and SWG are still there. Heres another example, last time i played UO a few years ago. I started up in minoc, mined my self enough to buy a small house. Went and placed my house, and like 10 people surrounded my house and told me if i didnt bow to them they would kill me. I just laughed at them and called them names, of course they killed me lol.
Last time i played SWG which was like 3 months ago, i went into Tant to get my self healed from a medic there training. Some one decided it was funny, and brought a Dragon to the town, which killed the whole town lol.
I havent played arche age, but from what i have see with the guys first impressions video, and what i have read its a themepark. If i looked a video as already stated, or read a story from some one starting the game, they are going to almost be the same story. As for those 2 stories i just told you, no one had them, but me.
/big massive facepalm
First of all, that's not even the OP you're quoting, I'm the OP and I didn't type that. And we've already been over SWG ad nauseum, and so far I'm more knowledgeable than anyone on this thread about it. I'd wager it will stay that way. I practically invented that move you're talking about by dragging DJM to the MOP on the 3rd day of launch on eclipse (probably someone did it before me, but I invented it because I said so), much fun was had., it never died and stayed there until server restart with 245k out of 246k ham still left, such is life for something with 90% resists going against noob weapons. So no that story is not yours, surely not if it just happened 3 months ago. That's a fable we tell all SWG-preCU children, by subjecting them to it as often as possible.
And that story about UO could completely happen in AA, so not seeing the point there either.
I can tell you haven't played it.
I quoted them because you werent listening to them. in fact it doesnt seem you are listening to any one lol. I dont even know why you posted this. No matter what any one types here your just going to tell them how they are wrong and your right,. I said i havent played AA, I wasent going to pay 50-150 bucks to play a free to play game.
I didnt see how that could happen from the videos. It looked like the guy went from quest to quest, following it. As for the last post the guy just made, maybe that could happen once you finish leveling up. So the point then would be what is the point of the quests, and the leveling up. If the game doesnt even start till your max level.
Sandbox is just a blanket term to help generalize. As soon as you start using it to compare and downgrade other products for comparison you need to stop and reevaluate the conversation.
i personally haven't seen a lot of people claiming AA isn't sandbox and can fully state with major confidence, AA is a sandbox. Now is it as broad of a sandbox as SWG? No. It has a bit more themeparks than SWG and doesn't focus as much on community driven PvE.
Again the boy reason we use this terms is to generalize products for certain audiences to recognize them. Kinda like how you would call Enders Game a science fiction novel but also do the same for a Steven King novel in the genre of "science fiction". They are both under that term because publishers want to attract a similar crowd.
Theres plenty of talk on these forums about AA not being a sandbox, on the first and second page of the Archeage general forums for example, there are threads, yes that's plural. I guess selective reading.
Community driven PVE? We've already established everything in SWG was soloable. That doesn't even make sense.
I think you need to reevaluate what has already been established on the forums and this thread if you want to bring anything of relevance to the table.
I will agree that it's a blanket statement, that everybody wishes to meticulously define, therein lies the problem. It can't be both. You even say SWG is more sandbox with no real relevant points to say why, other than something that has already been proven false.
This misinformation is exactly why I made this thread. This is a common argument that uses a lot of bad logic, which you've perpetuated.
You know you are in a sandbox game when the first thing you say to yourself is "WTF do I do to get started" lol
The problem is, that's exactly how EQ started. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that EQ is a sandbox, there just wasn't the conveniences that we now enjoy in games.
Likewise, having a kick in the right direction to get you started does not make something less of a sandbox.
There's always going to be evolution in the way things are presented to us. This is what advances in technology and design affords.
You could still do a sandbox by throwing someone in the world and saying "here you go, piss off". But that doesn't mean it's the only, or best way to do it.
the issue with EQ was you couldn't do almost anything you wanted....you had farming and dungeons....dont even remember if there was a crafting system :P
The idea of a sandbox is that the world is yours, if you can take it...but I strongly believe that you know you are in a sandbox the minute you are in-game...if you dont see it from onset, it's not truly a sandbox.
AA doesn't just give you a kick in the right direction, as all the level 50 fans can attest to, things don't kick up until level 30....that's a bit more than a kick....
When I was dumped in Wurm, I knew it was a sandbox
when I was dumped in Xyson, I knew it was a sandbox
Same with Salem (is that the name of that game)
MO and DF, although not 100% sandboxy because of limitations, felt like sandboxes when you were dumped in them.
Rust (not truly an MMO) felt like a sandbox when I was dumped in it....in just underwear...and a rock...and people with rifles trying to kill me.
Being dumped in AA, did not feel like any of those experiences
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
there is a vast difference between logging onto a sandbox MMO and logging onto a themepark...whether that's justifiable or not, it's the truth for me and obviously another poster who said it right after me. You can immediately tell that AA is not a sandbox game. It's an open world themepark with gadgets.
I can't speak to SWG, never played it, but AA does not feel very much like a sandbox, at least as how I measure them which is against EVE, the only one I've played with any regularity.
I recently started a new character/account in EVE, to see how the new player experience went. I completed all of the tutorials, then ran the first Epic Arc Mission when they sort of direct you to. Upon completion of that, I literally had a moment where I went, "OK, now what do I do?"
The game provided no direction, didn't point me towards a single path, in fact, despite being an EVE veteran, I had to sit back and ask myself what I wanted this character to do.
You can't do it all in EVE, (well, at least not all at once or at the same time) so I chose the path of mining, and began training my skills towards it.
Now I did start off mining, and running mining missions, but I could have chosen so many other paths. I could have started a career as a market trader, or an explorer, or joined up in the Faction Wars, or perhaps Red vs Blue combat, found myself a 0.0 corp, become a pirate or a host of other tasks.
Perhaps the biggest difference with AA is I wasn't limited to specific areas in the world based on my "level"
AA has level appropriate content, you are expected to remain in a specific area until your level is high enough to move to the next region. EVE is really not like that. I could move out to null sec from the end of the tutorial. Now, could I take down the NPC's out in null sec, no, but with the help of my corp, or if I had a few friends with me, and yes, we could have beaten down the content even out in the wilds.
AA isn't like this, and staring you in the face is this well defined golden path of questing that takes you from place to place from the time you first log in.
I've always though sand-box is more of a feeling, and less based on specific features, and EVE feels much more like a sandbox than AA.
Now I like AA, (I enjoy questing btw), and I do appreciate that it has a wider variety of progression activities than most theme parks so it feels a bit sandboxy, but it is nothing much like EVE, at least IMO.
I dont think people are saying that AA is not a Sandbox, but its more of a Sandpark than a Sandbox. I got that feeling from the minute I stepped into the Beta. The game right away felt as a game on Rails. That bored me fast because I have played UO and SWG and I can be dropped in a random city in the game and learn my way. I dont need the rails because I been there done that. I think what the core problem is, is that the game is on rails until later into the game and you really dont get a chance to see it early. Most players who enjoy sandboxes enjoyed Starting somewhere and not having a preset path.
This, 1000 times this.
Was very turned off by the linear questing start.
Been playing Darkfall instead now, way more what I had hoped ArcheAge would be.
So you're saying that you can't just go out to some area with level appropriate mobs and farm without doing quests in AA.
Thats all you're saying by mentioning darkfall, because the only difference is that AA allows you to do quests if you want, and DF is only now in the process of writing up quests (they even asked the players to submit their own to be added to the game) for people that don't want to just go out and kill with no purpose other than raising stats.
OP, you clearly havent played the old games people are refering to as sandboxes. Go play it, UO and SWG are still there. Heres another example, last time i played UO a few years ago. I started up in minoc, mined my self enough to buy a small house. Went and placed my house, and like 10 people surrounded my house and told me if i didnt bow to them they would kill me. I just laughed at them and called them names, of course they killed me lol.
Last time i played SWG which was like 3 months ago, i went into Tant to get my self healed from a medic there training. Some one decided it was funny, and brought a Dragon to the town, which killed the whole town lol.
I havent played arche age, but from what i have see with the guys first impressions video, and what i have read its a themepark. If i looked a video as already stated, or read a story from some one starting the game, they are going to almost be the same story. As for those 2 stories i just told you, no one had them, but me.
/big massive facepalm
First of all, that's not even the OP you're quoting, I'm the OP and I didn't type that. And we've already been over SWG ad nauseum, and so far I'm more knowledgeable than anyone on this thread about it. I'd wager it will stay that way. I practically invented that move you're talking about by dragging DJM to the MOP on the 3rd day of launch on eclipse (probably someone did it before me, but I invented it because I said so), much fun was had., it never died and stayed there until server restart with 245k out of 246k ham still left, such is life for something with 90% resists going against noob weapons. So no that story is not yours, surely not if it just happened 3 months ago. That's a fable we tell all SWG-preCU children, by subjecting them to it as often as possible.
And that story about UO could completely happen in AA, so not seeing the point there either.
I can tell you haven't played it.
I quoted them because you werent listening to them. in fact it doesnt seem you are listening to any one lol. I dont even know why you posted this. No matter what any one types here your just going to tell them how they are wrong and your right,. I said i havent played AA, I wasent going to pay 50-150 bucks to play a free to play game.
I didnt see how that could happen from the videos. It looked like the guy went from quest to quest, following it. As for the last post the guy just made, maybe that could happen once you finish leveling up. So the point then would be what is the point of the quests, and the leveling up. If the game doesnt even start till your max level.
So you're not reading the post you're quoting, or who wrote it, when it isn't even an argument against AA being a sandbox, and now you're saying you quoted it because I didn't read it.
Right.
The reason I'm not listening to you and I'm telling you I'm right and you're wrong is you're talking out of your ass. You're not even making sense.
Plus you're talking about a game you haven't even played, which kind of reinforces the point.
An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a true sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
I can't speak to SWG, never played it, but AA does not feel very much like a sandbox, at least as how I measure them which is against EVE, the only one I've played with any regularity.
I recently started a new character/account in EVE, to see how the new player experience went. I completed all of the tutorials, then ran the first Epic Arc Mission when they sort of direct you to. Upon completion of that, I literally had a moment where I went, "OK, now what do I do?"
The game provided no direction, didn't point me towards a single path, in fact, despite being an EVE veteran, I had to sit back and ask myself what I wanted this character to do.
You can't do it all in EVE, (well, at least not all at once or at the same time) so I chose the path of mining, and began training my skills towards it.
Now I did start off mining, and running mining missions, but I could have chosen so many other paths. I could have started a career as a market trader, or an explorer, or joined up in the Faction Wars, or perhaps Red vs Blue combat, found myself a 0.0 corp, become a pirate or a host of other tasks.
Perhaps the biggest difference with AA is I wasn't limited to specific areas in the world based on my "level"
AA has level appropriate content, you are expected to remain in a specific area until your level is high enough to move to the next region. EVE is really not like that. I could move out to null sec from the end of the tutorial. Now, could I take down the NPC's out in null sec, no, but with the help of my corp, or if I had a few friends with me, and yes, we could have beaten down the content even out in the wilds.
AA isn't like this, and staring you in the face is this well defined golden path of questing that takes you from place to place from the time you first log in.
I've always though sand-box is more of a feeling, and less based on specific features, and EVE feels much more like a sandbox than AA.
Now I like AA, (I enjoy questing btw), and I do appreciate that it has a wider variety of progression activities than most theme parks so it feels a bit sandboxy, but it is nothing much like EVE, at least IMO.
thanks, you explained that way better than me
If that is what you ever meant then you need to redo some education as Ky points out neutrally and reasonably what his opinion is while you start off aggressively and push that you are speaking truth not a opinion because of your experiences in the past. As a reviewer this is a horrific mistake especially with a woefully incomplete idea of how the game is. If you want to review a game it is your duty to try it for at least 60% of its content if it is not mechanically impossible to do so by broken mechanics or paywalls ( means cash or gtfo ). Does not matter if mini or normal that is what you do if you review. A preview is much more lenient and a first impression is as easy as you can get, your mini review is actually a first impressions article really.
Sandbox is just a blanket term to help generalize. As soon as you start using it to compare and downgrade other products for comparison you need to stop and reevaluate the conversation.
i personally haven't seen a lot of people claiming AA isn't sandbox and can fully state with major confidence, AA is a sandbox. Now is it as broad of a sandbox as SWG? No. It has a bit more themeparks than SWG and doesn't focus as much on community driven PvE.
Again the boy reason we use this terms is to generalize products for certain audiences to recognize them. Kinda like how you would call Enders Game a science fiction novel but also do the same for a Steven King novel in the genre of "science fiction". They are both under that term because publishers want to attract a similar crowd.
Theres plenty of talk on these forums about AA not being a sandbox, on the first and second page of the Archeage general forums for example, there are threads, yes that's plural. I guess selective reading.
Community driven PVE? We've already established everything in SWG was soloable. That doesn't even make sense.
I think you need to reevaluate what has already been established on the forums and this thread if you want to bring anything of relevance to the table.
I will agree that it's a blanket statement, that everybody wishes to meticulously define, therein lies the problem. It can't be both. You even say SWG is more sandbox with no real relevant points to say why, other than something that has already been proven false.
This misinformation is exactly why I made this thread. This is a common argument that uses a lot of bad logic, which you've perpetuated.
You know you are in a sandbox game when the first thing you say to yourself is "WTF do I do to get started" lol
The problem is, that's exactly how EQ started. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that EQ is a sandbox, there just wasn't the conveniences that we now enjoy in games.
Likewise, having a kick in the right direction to get you started does not make something less of a sandbox.
There's always going to be evolution in the way things are presented to us. This is what advances in technology and design affords.
You could still do a sandbox by throwing someone in the world and saying "here you go, piss off". But that doesn't mean it's the only, or best way to do it.
the issue with EQ was you couldn't do almost anything you wanted....you had farming and dungeons....dont even remember if there was a crafting system :P
The idea of a sandbox is that the world is yours, if you can take it...but I strongly believe that you know you are in a sandbox the minute you are in-game...if you dont see it from onset, it's not truly a sandbox.
AA doesn't just give you a kick in the right direction, as all the level 50 fans can attest to, things don't kick up until level 30....that's a bit more than a kick....
When I was dumped in Wurm, I knew it was a sandbox
when I was dumped in Xyson, I knew it was a sandbox
Same with Salem (is that the name of that game)
MO and DF, although not 100% sandboxy because of limitations, felt like sandboxes when you were dumped in them.
Rust (not truly an MMO) felt like a sandbox when I was dumped in it....in just underwear...and a rock...and people with rifles trying to kill me.
Being dumped in AA, did not feel like any of those experiences
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
there is a vast difference between logging onto a sandbox MMO and logging onto a themepark...whether that's justifiable or not, it's the truth for me and obviously another poster who said it right after me. You can immediately tell that AA is not a sandbox game. It's an open world themepark with gadgets.
You can immediately tell and yet it can't be described in ways that are tangible. Or in ways that can't be refuted by arguing the point objectively, like with your "chuck you in the middle of no where and have a go" mechanic that is apparently vital to sandboxes. I've addressed that. What other points are there?
We all know AA has a quest chain. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with a reason why the fact that quest chain exists makes AA any less of a sandbox. It has all the sandbox mechanics that were present in a game like SWG, which also had quests. If I take popcorn and put caramel all over it, it's still popcorn, and you can't claim that it isnt. You can't win with that, because it would be false, so instead were debating how it tastes.
The same mechanics exist there, but it's presented in a different way.
So to people like yourself it matters more how it is presented rather than the substance. I find that reasoning shallow and inconsequential.
I'll repeat, every vital sandbox element that was present in a game like SWG is also present in AA.
That's a fact. And if that's a fact, they're both equally sandbox.
An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a true sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Neither game does that so shut it!
Actually, they both do that
Placing a house is modifying the world. Creating a niche in an ingame economy and filling it is creating the way you play.
An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a true sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Neither game does that so shut it!
Actually, they both do that
Placing a house is modifying the world. Creating a niche in an ingame economy and filling it is creating the way you play.
By that loose definition they're both sandboxes.
GG.
Placing a cookie cutter house built by the Dev;s is in no way shape or form of being a modification, you are placing a game item, like dropping a barrel..Building your own house to your design within the specifications of game play and skill thats sandbox....dropping these cookie cutter houses in set locations(AA) to a set design..is just more open world HYPE blinding you to the real possibilities....
Games like:
Everquest(landmark)
Wurm Online
Second life(if it's still around)
Very few games where you could build what "YOU" want, not what was given to you to just drop somewhere in the world.
How does Economy even fit into Sandbox. Unless it actually changes the world. Meaning if one side has a better economy then the other factions or sides suffer? Have never seen that in any game..
Cute when people try to denegrate SWG. Either they are going off of what the read somewhere or what someone told them. See, the proof is in the details.
1) PVE in SWG was not as easy as you seem to make it out to be. Did it become that way? Yes, but only after Smedley and Cao decided to try and turn SWG into a WOW clone.
1a) Nightsisters were a guild event, and it took 15+ people to clear the nightsister town, in SWG.
1b) Krayts were not soloable in SWG. Neither were Rancors.
1c) Hell not even Tusken Village on Tatooine could be solo'd, it required several people and usually not without a great deal of difficulty including one time that I recall running all the way back to town (Mos Espa I think? Maybe Entha) and having to pay an entertainer to be escorted by us back to Tusken Village to heal everyone.
1d) All of the above became false with the CURB. The CURB is not SWG and is not considered SWG by anyone but an ahole SOE fanboi.
2) Buffs came about to be super awesome because of changes made to the game by SOE because people bitched and cried about having to stop and go sit in a cantina and watch or listen to entertainers, because people bitched about needing healers, because people bitch.
3) Dant and Dath missions did not become popular for grinding until well into the Jedi Grind and CURB.
4) Did you even play any version of SWG? At the time of the ObiWan expansion you still had to monitor your harvesters and move them because resource quantity and quality shifted after every maintenance period. Before the CURB crafters hired adventurer players like myself to guard them as they found their harvesters and would pay to use our lots because you were limited to what you could build.
Everything you talk about is not SWG, but the changed piece of shit game that died an ignominious death. Whether it was because of age or funding or what but you, if you played at all, obviously came in well after Jedi's were released and the game transformed from an adventure to an afk macro grind. When people compare SWG to other pretenders to the Sandbox crown they aren't comparing what Smedley turned the game into, but what Koster had first released. And if you don't know what I am talking about concerning Smedley and Koster then you prove my point that you are a curb baby not an SWG vet.
I'd advise you to at least do a little research before attempting to tell someone like myself about SWG. I played from launch up until well after the CU, I played a little NGE off on and on for nostalgia, not much. I remember toting around 3 AT-ST's at a time and killing anything that looked funny at me in PVE, and this is before 90% comp armor and 2k buffs became the norm. You're coming across as someone entirely clueless about the game, who maybe played it for a week or two early on and never experienced what SWG was after the power of the different systems were harnessed by the player base, in other words a complete and total nub at best. You jumped the gun far far too much and you have a limited understanding about the subject matter, and you're coming off basically as you have no idea what you're on about, while trying to act like a condescending little punk about it which makes your ignorance even more hilarious.
So with that, I'll address what's wrong with your post, there's a lot. Let me educate you:
1. PVE in SWG is everything I said and more, or less, depending on how you want to view "easy". Anyone who says it isn't either didn't play, smoked too much weed since then, sucked really bad at the game, or just didnt have a clue to start with and should just stop talking. I still play SWG precu son, I know what I'm talking about.
1a. Anyone with Master swords/Fencer/Medic hybrid could kill the shit out of any Nightsister, and so could plenty of other builds like TKA/Fencer/Medic. Basically as long as you stack melee classed and medic and have 90% comp and even marginal buffs this is a no brainer. Even the named Nightsister Axkva Min could be soloed, and she's arguably the toughest mob in the game. I should know, I did it post publish 9 Pre-CU as part of my jedi trials, this means no armor. What are you on about?
A pretty decent guide on how to solo krayts, this is archived from PRE-cu, dated 2005. Anyone who denies Krayts were not soloable when there was such easily available documentation about it has no clue what they're talking about. You've totally discredited yourself.
1c. LoL Tusken Village, that thing was tough, for the first 2 weeks of the game maybe when bone armor was OP and scout blaster was weapon of choice. Please, how retarded. Clearly the opinion of someone who couldn't last at the game. Strange you'd come back trumping it up when you clearly were out of your league playing it. This is evident by the fact you say you had to "run" back to town. lol whatsamatta no speedah? These were released not far into the game dude, clearly you didn't stick around long enough to use one.
Things actually got tougher with the first combat revamp, or CURB, where buffs and armor were toned down and hard capped. Jedi were the main benefactors of that. So again, insisting that PVE actually got easier with the CURB is 100% false and you couldn't possibly be more wrong.
2. Buffs were at their peak about a month and a half into the game, depending on server. As long as good avian meat was available, you could get 2k-2.2k buffs. They never got higher than that with any of the revamps, patches, or upgrades to the game. This was in the original system designed by Raph Koster's team, not part of any late change. SOE simply underestimated the power that buffs and armor were capable of, players literally broke the system, and then cried that the game was too easy. You say people cried that the game was too hard. Lol how moronic. Trust me, you have not a single leg to stand on here.
3. Dant missions were again at their peak just a couple of months in the game. Solo missions were readily available, in SWG's original instance. This was the norm for combat players making money. You obviously quit playing before that, and believe that this is all some NGE evil, again showing your ignorance.
4. I find it ironic that you're asking me if I ever played SWG, when everything you've mentioned in your bumbling incoherent post is 100% inaccurate.
You admittedly never soloed a rancor, because you think it was impossible. Mate I soloed my first rancor within the first month of the game being released, unbuffed, with torso shot, bleed shot, body shot spamming with a stock 150 min 220 max damage scatter pistol, which was AP1 and the rancor had vunerability to acid damage which means I did multiplied damange on them, they were so insanely easy.
I bet you don't even know what I'm talking about there, anyone who played SWG for more than a month would cue in all the things I just mentioned. You are utterly lost, get off the thread now.
EDIT: By the way I mastered 33 professions on SWG. That's right I said 33, including politician. I ran my own city on Talus (which on my server was considered "my" planet.) I mastered Jedi on two seperate servers under the holocron system. I mastered BH, the longest and hardest mastery class other than Jedi, 3 times. I mastered marksman and brawler and all the novice classes untold dozens of times. I killed everything that breathed or walked in that game, and I killed it again and again until it knew well enough to make a wide berth when I got anywhere near it. I took down the best Jedi knights on the server with a looted (exceptional) t-21 rifle that was one of the best weapons known to man on that game. So when I tell you I know something about SWG, you can be like Moses and bust out the stone tablets, because I've spoken.
But it's still not anymore sandbox than what I've seen of AA.
Kiako....is that you? lol
I played SWG from pre Pub 9 throught to just after they added Hoth....I still play Pre CU every other day. I know what I am talking about.
This man (along with Distopias comment earlier about god buffs) speaks the truth.
Sandbox is just a blanket term to help generalize. As soon as you start using it to compare and downgrade other products for comparison you need to stop and reevaluate the conversation.
i personally haven't seen a lot of people claiming AA isn't sandbox and can fully state with major confidence, AA is a sandbox. Now is it as broad of a sandbox as SWG? No. It has a bit more themeparks than SWG and doesn't focus as much on community driven PvE.
Again the boy reason we use this terms is to generalize products for certain audiences to recognize them. Kinda like how you would call Enders Game a science fiction novel but also do the same for a Steven King novel in the genre of "science fiction". They are both under that term because publishers want to attract a similar crowd.
Theres plenty of talk on these forums about AA not being a sandbox, on the first and second page of the Archeage general forums for example, there are threads, yes that's plural. I guess selective reading.
Community driven PVE? We've already established everything in SWG was soloable. That doesn't even make sense.
I think you need to reevaluate what has already been established on the forums and this thread if you want to bring anything of relevance to the table.
I will agree that it's a blanket statement, that everybody wishes to meticulously define, therein lies the problem. It can't be both. You even say SWG is more sandbox with no real relevant points to say why, other than something that has already been proven false.
This misinformation is exactly why I made this thread. This is a common argument that uses a lot of bad logic, which you've perpetuated.
You know you are in a sandbox game when the first thing you say to yourself is "WTF do I do to get started" lol
The problem is, that's exactly how EQ started. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that EQ is a sandbox, there just wasn't the conveniences that we now enjoy in games.
Likewise, having a kick in the right direction to get you started does not make something less of a sandbox.
There's always going to be evolution in the way things are presented to us. This is what advances in technology and design affords.
You could still do a sandbox by throwing someone in the world and saying "here you go, piss off". But that doesn't mean it's the only, or best way to do it.
the issue with EQ was you couldn't do almost anything you wanted....you had farming and dungeons....dont even remember if there was a crafting system :P
The idea of a sandbox is that the world is yours, if you can take it...but I strongly believe that you know you are in a sandbox the minute you are in-game...if you dont see it from onset, it's not truly a sandbox.
AA doesn't just give you a kick in the right direction, as all the level 50 fans can attest to, things don't kick up until level 30....that's a bit more than a kick....
When I was dumped in Wurm, I knew it was a sandbox
when I was dumped in Xyson, I knew it was a sandbox
Same with Salem (is that the name of that game)
MO and DF, although not 100% sandboxy because of limitations, felt like sandboxes when you were dumped in them.
Rust (not truly an MMO) felt like a sandbox when I was dumped in it....in just underwear...and a rock...and people with rifles trying to kill me.
Being dumped in AA, did not feel like any of those experiences
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
there is a vast difference between logging onto a sandbox MMO and logging onto a themepark...whether that's justifiable or not, it's the truth for me and obviously another poster who said it right after me. You can immediately tell that AA is not a sandbox game. It's an open world themepark with gadgets.
You can immediately tell and yet it can't be described in ways that are tangible. Or in ways that can't be refuted by arguing the point objectively, like with your "chuck you in the middle of no where and have a go" mechanic that is apparently vital to sandboxes. I've addressed that. What other points are there?
We all know AA has a quest chain. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with a reason why the fact that quest chain exists makes AA any less of a sandbox. It has all the sandbox mechanics that were present in a game like SWG, which also had quests. If I take popcorn and put caramel all over it, it's still popcorn, and you can't claim that it isnt. You can't win with that, because it would be false, so instead were debating how it tastes.
The same mechanics exist there, but it's presented in a different way.
So to people like yourself it matters more how it is presented rather than the substance. I find that reasoning shallow and inconsequential.
I'll repeat, every vital sandbox element that was present in a game like SWG is also present in AA.
That's a fact. And if that's a fact, they're both equally sandbox.
Just no, i think your missing the point, if a game has quest chains that are defined from your character class etc, that follow a very definite path, and you are then led through a series of 'level appropriate' areas, then that is the exact definition of a Themepark, i think where you are getting confused, is that SWG was only a sandbox for a short while, once the CU hit and the game acquired levels, it become more of a 'sandpark' and eventually with the NGE, completely themepark. it did ruin the game, but thats a whole other story. But basically, if the game world itself is seperated into level appropriate areas, then it is by definition, a Themepark game, you follow the path and do the things your supposed to do, and admittedly they are fun, but its also not Sandbox, because in a sandbox the game world is not seperated into neat little boxes with level appropriate content.
For the record you don't have to follow a single quest line in Archeage. You can go do your own thing immediately. The game isn't really at fault for any players inability to step off a path because they see [!]. IMO If you're such a sandbox type, that's the first thing you would do. Insinuating that you're some hardcore sandbox player but not being able to go off the beaten path means you're not as "sandbox" as you think.
[!] Look at you. You can't help it.
[!] Hey follow me.
[!] You're not really about that sandbox life.
[!] Stop blaming games for your hangups. Bye.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Now if I made a thread, I would have called it "How is AA not a sandbox and Asheron's Call was?"
Themepark, Asherons Call was a game world seperated into level based areas, it had some fun mechanics originally, where you had to try and learn spells, they oversimplified it eventually, but it was to all intents and purposes, a Themepark game.
first i love archeage and yes its a sandbox(id except sandpark too even though i would actually just say it a sandbox with a structured quest system for poeple that would be lost without it) but please don't compare it too swg because you will fail everyday of the week. swg had the deepest crafting system i've ever seen, deepest resource system, deepest class system(basically pick 2.5 of 33 profs to master, largest maps(i remember before they added speeders) and the greatest faction system i've ever seen work pc or npc. i just want to leave you with this swg was way ahead of its time and we probably won't see another sandbox like it. oh and please don't talk to me about broken swgemu.
An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a true sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Neither game does that so shut it!
Actually, they both do that
Placing a house is modifying the world. Creating a niche in an ingame economy and filling it is creating the way you play.
By that loose definition they're both sandboxes.
GG.
Placing a cookie cutter house built by the Dev;s is in no way shape or form of being a modification, you are placing a game item, like dropping a barrel..Building your own house to your design within the specifications of game play and skill thats sandbox....dropping these cookie cutter houses in set locations(AA) to a set design..is just more open world HYPE blinding you to the real possibilities....
Games like:
Everquest(landmark)
Wurm Online
Second life(if it's still around)
Very few games where you could build what "YOU" want, not what was given to you to just drop somewhere in the world.
How does Economy even fit into Sandbox. Unless it actually changes the world. Meaning if one side has a better economy then the other factions or sides suffer? Have never seen that in any game..
Placing a house in the game world, is by default modifying the game world. When you place the house, the game (and hence the world) is instantly modified to reflect the house is there. If it was a permanent or superficial modification is irrelevant. All of it is superficial modification, even the beloved EQ landmark. Any change you make to the world can be undone, it's not permanent.
Also they're too distinctly different requirements, they're mutually exclusive. The requirement in your definition was "create how you play" not "play how you want in a way that effects the game world in some way."
The original SWG had no quests to speak of. Closest thing were the mission terminals where you could pick and choose missions to go on. In AA the quest chains toy want to follow. For example choose the main storyline to get gilda stars, if you want to be a miner follow the mining crafting chain and you will get armor that helps that craft, same with farmer, alchemist etc. Don't care for mining , don't bother with that chain. Don't want a farm, then ignore the farm quests.
If you try and be a jack of all trades don't expect to succeed in anything in this game. Choose and choose wisely and you will be far better off. Bearing that in mind if you think you just want combat, you will still need something to give you a sustainable source of income so don't shrug off the craftring entirely or you will end up a poor as dirt with less than optimum gear. Dropped gear is second class gear in this game just like it was in SWG
Sandbox is just a blanket term to help generalize. As soon as you start using it to compare and downgrade other products for comparison you need to stop and reevaluate the conversation.
i personally haven't seen a lot of people claiming AA isn't sandbox and can fully state with major confidence, AA is a sandbox. Now is it as broad of a sandbox as SWG? No. It has a bit more themeparks than SWG and doesn't focus as much on community driven PvE.
Again the boy reason we use this terms is to generalize products for certain audiences to recognize them. Kinda like how you would call Enders Game a science fiction novel but also do the same for a Steven King novel in the genre of "science fiction". They are both under that term because publishers want to attract a similar crowd.
Theres plenty of talk on these forums about AA not being a sandbox, on the first and second page of the Archeage general forums for example, there are threads, yes that's plural. I guess selective reading.
Community driven PVE? We've already established everything in SWG was soloable. That doesn't even make sense.
I think you need to reevaluate what has already been established on the forums and this thread if you want to bring anything of relevance to the table.
I will agree that it's a blanket statement, that everybody wishes to meticulously define, therein lies the problem. It can't be both. You even say SWG is more sandbox with no real relevant points to say why, other than something that has already been proven false.
This misinformation is exactly why I made this thread. This is a common argument that uses a lot of bad logic, which you've perpetuated.
You know you are in a sandbox game when the first thing you say to yourself is "WTF do I do to get started" lol
The problem is, that's exactly how EQ started. You'd be hard pressed to convince people that EQ is a sandbox, there just wasn't the conveniences that we now enjoy in games.
Likewise, having a kick in the right direction to get you started does not make something less of a sandbox.
There's always going to be evolution in the way things are presented to us. This is what advances in technology and design affords.
You could still do a sandbox by throwing someone in the world and saying "here you go, piss off". But that doesn't mean it's the only, or best way to do it.
the issue with EQ was you couldn't do almost anything you wanted....you had farming and dungeons....dont even remember if there was a crafting system :P
The idea of a sandbox is that the world is yours, if you can take it...but I strongly believe that you know you are in a sandbox the minute you are in-game...if you dont see it from onset, it's not truly a sandbox.
AA doesn't just give you a kick in the right direction, as all the level 50 fans can attest to, things don't kick up until level 30....that's a bit more than a kick....
When I was dumped in Wurm, I knew it was a sandbox
when I was dumped in Xyson, I knew it was a sandbox
Same with Salem (is that the name of that game)
MO and DF, although not 100% sandboxy because of limitations, felt like sandboxes when you were dumped in them.
Rust (not truly an MMO) felt like a sandbox when I was dumped in it....in just underwear...and a rock...and people with rifles trying to kill me.
Being dumped in AA, did not feel like any of those experiences
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
there is a vast difference between logging onto a sandbox MMO and logging onto a themepark...whether that's justifiable or not, it's the truth for me and obviously another poster who said it right after me. You can immediately tell that AA is not a sandbox game. It's an open world themepark with gadgets.
You can immediately tell and yet it can't be described in ways that are tangible. Or in ways that can't be refuted by arguing the point objectively, like with your "chuck you in the middle of no where and have a go" mechanic that is apparently vital to sandboxes. I've addressed that. What other points are there?
We all know AA has a quest chain. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with a reason why the fact that quest chain exists makes AA any less of a sandbox. It has all the sandbox mechanics that were present in a game like SWG, which also had quests. If I take popcorn and put caramel all over it, it's still popcorn, and you can't claim that it isnt. You can't win with that, because it would be false, so instead were debating how it tastes.
The same mechanics exist there, but it's presented in a different way.
So to people like yourself it matters more how it is presented rather than the substance. I find that reasoning shallow and inconsequential.
I'll repeat, every vital sandbox element that was present in a game like SWG is also present in AA.
That's a fact. And if that's a fact, they're both equally sandbox.
Just no, i think your missing the point, if a game has quest chains that are defined from your character class etc, that follow a very definite path, and you are then led through a series of 'level appropriate' areas, then that is the exact definition of a Themepark, i think where you are getting confused, is that SWG was only a sandbox for a short while, once the CU hit and the game acquired levels, it become more of a 'sandpark' and eventually with the NGE, completely themepark. it did ruin the game, but thats a whole other story. But basically, if the game world itself is seperated into level appropriate areas, then it is by definition, a Themepark game, you follow the path and do the things your supposed to do, and admittedly they are fun, but its also not Sandbox, because in a sandbox the game world is not seperated into neat little boxes with level appropriate content.
Again someone wants to argue with me about SWG? It's folly folks, I will school you in that games lore, history, gameplay elements, tactics, crafting mechanics, whatever you want to talk about. It's complete ill advised at this point, I can't grasp why people want to do it. But whatever, I'll bite.
The original SWG Pre-CU had the con system. It had adventure planets that you should not adventure on until you had "leveled up" sufficiently on the less hostile planets. Sure you could beg for 10k, get a buff, and go run around Dant, you were still way out of your league and likely going home in a body bag as a novice marksman, or at least taking 14 minutes to kill a dog if you had some decent armor. I can go adventuring in high level areas in AA as well, with no doubt a similar amount of risk vs reward, reward being small because you're not proficient enough in abilities to kill stuff, risk being a similar amount.
SWG=theoretically the same. Just without a number, and instead you had a red, yellow, white, blue, or green dot, real big difference.
The fact remains, every vital sandbox element that was present in SWG is also present in AA. So just no, you entirely missed the point, not myself.
Comments
I didn't make your criteria for you, you said "being chucked into a game with no direction" is the definition of a sandbox, which by its definition can be applied to EQ, which is arguably the most notable themepark in history next to WoW.
You can get to level 30 in one day in AA with minimal effort. If one day is a large part of the time you plan to spend in an MMO, then you're doing it wrong. Levels in AA are insanely easy. So yes, it is a kick in the right direction, if you play the game for a month you'll be spending the vast majority of time enjoying sandbox elements. Not seeing the problem, with the ratio of time invested on "sandpark" stuff.
Again it's all just nitpicking. A few hours of questing isn't make or break, every person who played SWG spent way more on repetitive boring missions than that. Way way more.
I'm still looking for a substantial difference there, that apparently doesn't exist.
Every other term or feeling you describe I can easily apply to Archeage, but your retort is you just don't "feel it". That's not an argument that it's not a sandbox, it's you just not feeling it.
I can't speak to SWG, never played it, but AA does not feel very much like a sandbox, at least as how I measure them which is against EVE, the only one I've played with any regularity.
I recently started a new character/account in EVE, to see how the new player experience went. I completed all of the tutorials, then ran the first Epic Arc Mission when they sort of direct you to. Upon completion of that, I literally had a moment where I went, "OK, now what do I do?"
The game provided no direction, didn't point me towards a single path, in fact, despite being an EVE veteran, I had to sit back and ask myself what I wanted this character to do.
You can't do it all in EVE, (well, at least not all at once or at the same time) so I chose the path of mining, and began training my skills towards it.
Now I did start off mining, and running mining missions, but I could have chosen so many other paths. I could have started a career as a market trader, or an explorer, or joined up in the Faction Wars, or perhaps Red vs Blue combat, found myself a 0.0 corp, become a pirate or a host of other tasks.
Perhaps the biggest difference with AA is I wasn't limited to specific areas in the world based on my "level"
AA has level appropriate content, you are expected to remain in a specific area until your level is high enough to move to the next region. EVE is really not like that. I could move out to null sec from the end of the tutorial. Now, could I take down the NPC's out in null sec, no, but with the help of my corp, or if I had a few friends with me, and yes, we could have beaten down the content even out in the wilds.
AA isn't like this, and staring you in the face is this well defined golden path of questing that takes you from place to place from the time you first log in.
I've always though sand-box is more of a feeling, and less based on specific features, and EVE feels much more like a sandbox than AA.
Now I like AA, (I enjoy questing btw), and I do appreciate that it has a wider variety of progression activities than most theme parks so it feels a bit sandboxy, but it is nothing much like EVE, at least IMO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's the MMORPG.com forums, logic doesn't typically do well here.
AA is a sandbox, however this is the holy temple for trolls & sandbox fans alike. There are a lot of sandbox 'purists' here, who believe anything that isn't 110% sandbox in features (no linear skill lines in a skill tree for example), doesn't count. If anything has even a small linear component to it, it's disqualified. Does it make sense? Nope. But that's how things are around here.
SWG is basically chuck norris on these forums. You just aren't allowed to point out the flaws. The games perfect because we said so, and anyone who says otherwise is a hater we didn't play 'the right' version, because we said so.
Shortly put, it's ignorance. And these forums have a ton of that. There's always a reason to hate on a game; some more than others, and AA is not immune. There's not a whole lot you can do to enlighten these folks. Most rational people know the game is a sandbox. It might not have all the sandbox features we want, but that doesn't prevent it from being one.
OP, you clearly havent played the old games people are refering to as sandboxes. Go play it, UO and SWG are still there. Heres another example, last time i played UO a few years ago. I started up in minoc, mined my self enough to buy a small house. Went and placed my house, and like 10 people surrounded my house and told me if i didnt bow to them they would kill me. I just laughed at them and called them names, of course they killed me lol.
Last time i played SWG which was like 3 months ago, i went into Tant to get my self healed from a medic there training. Some one decided it was funny, and brought a Dragon to the town, which killed the whole town lol.
I havent played arche age, but from what i have see with the guys first impressions video, and what i have read its a themepark. If i looked a video as already stated, or read a story from some one starting the game, they are going to almost be the same story. As for those 2 stories i just told you, no one had them, but me.
/big massive facepalm
First of all, that's not even the OP you're quoting, I'm the OP and I didn't type that. And we've already been over SWG ad nauseum, and so far I'm more knowledgeable than anyone on this thread about it. I'd wager it will stay that way. I practically invented that move you're talking about by dragging DJM to the MOP on the 3rd day of launch on eclipse (probably someone did it before me, but I invented it because I said so), much fun was had., it never died and stayed there until server restart with 245k out of 246k ham still left, such is life for something with 90% resists going against noob weapons. So no that story is not yours, surely not if it just happened 3 months ago. That's a fable we tell all SWG-preCU children, by subjecting them to it as often as possible.
And that story about UO could completely happen in AA, so not seeing the point there either.
I can tell you haven't played it.
AA is an MMO, and anyone that's stressing about the kind of gameplay they will experience in their first few days should probably reconsider playing AA.
Once you hit L50, which will happen very quickly, you have to have to amuse yourself pretty much. If you're expecting the game to provide you with "consumable content" after that point, you're in for a hard time. You'll have to set your own goals and figure out how you're going to attain them. There's no vast store of daily's and end-game raids to keep you amused, and there most likely never will be. Waiting for next month's "content patch" is not a thing in AA...
I quoted them because you werent listening to them. in fact it doesnt seem you are listening to any one lol. I dont even know why you posted this. No matter what any one types here your just going to tell them how they are wrong and your right,. I said i havent played AA, I wasent going to pay 50-150 bucks to play a free to play game.
I didnt see how that could happen from the videos. It looked like the guy went from quest to quest, following it. As for the last post the guy just made, maybe that could happen once you finish leveling up. So the point then would be what is the point of the quests, and the leveling up. If the game doesnt even start till your max level.
there is a vast difference between logging onto a sandbox MMO and logging onto a themepark...whether that's justifiable or not, it's the truth for me and obviously another poster who said it right after me. You can immediately tell that AA is not a sandbox game. It's an open world themepark with gadgets.
thanks, you explained that way better than me
So you're not reading the post you're quoting, or who wrote it, when it isn't even an argument against AA being a sandbox, and now you're saying you quoted it because I didn't read it.
Right.
The reason I'm not listening to you and I'm telling you I'm right and you're wrong is you're talking out of your ass. You're not even making sense.
Plus you're talking about a game you haven't even played, which kind of reinforces the point.
Here maybe people need a definition:
An "open world" game does not necessarily imply a true sandbox. In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.
Neither game does that so shut it!
If that is what you ever meant then you need to redo some education as Ky points out neutrally and reasonably what his opinion is while you start off aggressively and push that you are speaking truth not a opinion because of your experiences in the past. As a reviewer this is a horrific mistake especially with a woefully incomplete idea of how the game is. If you want to review a game it is your duty to try it for at least 60% of its content if it is not mechanically impossible to do so by broken mechanics or paywalls ( means cash or gtfo ). Does not matter if mini or normal that is what you do if you review. A preview is much more lenient and a first impression is as easy as you can get, your mini review is actually a first impressions article really.
You can immediately tell and yet it can't be described in ways that are tangible. Or in ways that can't be refuted by arguing the point objectively, like with your "chuck you in the middle of no where and have a go" mechanic that is apparently vital to sandboxes. I've addressed that. What other points are there?
We all know AA has a quest chain. So far I haven't seen anyone come up with a reason why the fact that quest chain exists makes AA any less of a sandbox. It has all the sandbox mechanics that were present in a game like SWG, which also had quests. If I take popcorn and put caramel all over it, it's still popcorn, and you can't claim that it isnt. You can't win with that, because it would be false, so instead were debating how it tastes.
The same mechanics exist there, but it's presented in a different way.
So to people like yourself it matters more how it is presented rather than the substance. I find that reasoning shallow and inconsequential.
I'll repeat, every vital sandbox element that was present in a game like SWG is also present in AA.
That's a fact. And if that's a fact, they're both equally sandbox.
Actually, they both do that
Placing a house is modifying the world. Creating a niche in an ingame economy and filling it is creating the way you play.
By that loose definition they're both sandboxes.
GG.
Placing a cookie cutter house built by the Dev;s is in no way shape or form of being a modification, you are placing a game item, like dropping a barrel..Building your own house to your design within the specifications of game play and skill thats sandbox....dropping these cookie cutter houses in set locations(AA) to a set design..is just more open world HYPE blinding you to the real possibilities....
Games like:
Everquest(landmark)
Wurm Online
Second life(if it's still around)
Very few games where you could build what "YOU" want, not what was given to you to just drop somewhere in the world.
How does Economy even fit into Sandbox. Unless it actually changes the world. Meaning if one side has a better economy then the other factions or sides suffer? Have never seen that in any game..
Kiako....is that you? lol
I played SWG from pre Pub 9 throught to just after they added Hoth....I still play Pre CU every other day. I know what I am talking about.
This man (along with Distopias comment earlier about god buffs) speaks the truth.
Just no, i think your missing the point, if a game has quest chains that are defined from your character class etc, that follow a very definite path, and you are then led through a series of 'level appropriate' areas, then that is the exact definition of a Themepark, i think where you are getting confused, is that SWG was only a sandbox for a short while, once the CU hit and the game acquired levels, it become more of a 'sandpark' and eventually with the NGE, completely themepark. it did ruin the game, but thats a whole other story. But basically, if the game world itself is seperated into level appropriate areas, then it is by definition, a Themepark game, you follow the path and do the things your supposed to do, and admittedly they are fun, but its also not Sandbox, because in a sandbox the game world is not seperated into neat little boxes with level appropriate content.
AA to me at best is what SWG-NGE wanted to be.
Now if I made a thread, I would have called it "How is AA not a sandbox and Asheron's Call was?"
For the record you don't have to follow a single quest line in Archeage. You can go do your own thing immediately. The game isn't really at fault for any players inability to step off a path because they see [!]. IMO If you're such a sandbox type, that's the first thing you would do. Insinuating that you're some hardcore sandbox player but not being able to go off the beaten path means you're not as "sandbox" as you think.
[!] Look at you. You can't help it.
[!] Hey follow me.
[!] You're not really about that sandbox life.
[!] Stop blaming games for your hangups. Bye.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Themepark, Asherons Call was a game world seperated into level based areas, it had some fun mechanics originally, where you had to try and learn spells, they oversimplified it eventually, but it was to all intents and purposes, a Themepark game.
Placing a house in the game world, is by default modifying the game world. When you place the house, the game (and hence the world) is instantly modified to reflect the house is there. If it was a permanent or superficial modification is irrelevant. All of it is superficial modification, even the beloved EQ landmark. Any change you make to the world can be undone, it's not permanent.
Also they're too distinctly different requirements, they're mutually exclusive. The requirement in your definition was "create how you play" not "play how you want in a way that effects the game world in some way."
Like I said, GG.
For the record, rowboats are rewarded from a quest . Gardens and farms are rewarded from quests. Becoming a juror is rewarded from a quest chain.
Unless they made such things no longer require quests in 1.2 (doubtful), then no, you can't do your own thing immediately if it requires those.
The original SWG had no quests to speak of. Closest thing were the mission terminals where you could pick and choose missions to go on. In AA the quest chains toy want to follow. For example choose the main storyline to get gilda stars, if you want to be a miner follow the mining crafting chain and you will get armor that helps that craft, same with farmer, alchemist etc. Don't care for mining , don't bother with that chain. Don't want a farm, then ignore the farm quests.
If you try and be a jack of all trades don't expect to succeed in anything in this game. Choose and choose wisely and you will be far better off. Bearing that in mind if you think you just want combat, you will still need something to give you a sustainable source of income so don't shrug off the craftring entirely or you will end up a poor as dirt with less than optimum gear. Dropped gear is second class gear in this game just like it was in SWG
I miss DAoC
Again someone wants to argue with me about SWG? It's folly folks, I will school you in that games lore, history, gameplay elements, tactics, crafting mechanics, whatever you want to talk about. It's complete ill advised at this point, I can't grasp why people want to do it. But whatever, I'll bite.
The original SWG Pre-CU had the con system. It had adventure planets that you should not adventure on until you had "leveled up" sufficiently on the less hostile planets. Sure you could beg for 10k, get a buff, and go run around Dant, you were still way out of your league and likely going home in a body bag as a novice marksman, or at least taking 14 minutes to kill a dog if you had some decent armor. I can go adventuring in high level areas in AA as well, with no doubt a similar amount of risk vs reward, reward being small because you're not proficient enough in abilities to kill stuff, risk being a similar amount.
SWG=theoretically the same. Just without a number, and instead you had a red, yellow, white, blue, or green dot, real big difference.
The fact remains, every vital sandbox element that was present in SWG is also present in AA. So just no, you entirely missed the point, not myself.