But I like the old ways

EQAbner · July 2014

I see people frequently calling the old ways outdated and/or boring.

I for one like the trinity system.

I also like grinding (some anyway).

Perhaps I am in the minority but that's just the way it is.

I'm not saying I won't try new things. I try almost every MMORPG that comes out. I just don't agree with poo-pooing the old ways.

FelixMajor · July 2014

It keeps coming up because the people who never understood why the RPGs and MMORPGs were initially designed these ways was to allow a playstyle more similar to DnD playsets and rules. Ex. The roll of the dice determining an outcome. The RPGs like this were more of a semi cinematic, and more strategic. You would need to think about the fight, think about your options and the outcomes/consequences.

It wasn't until Kyle, 4 year CoD veteran, started playing WoW and said - "What the hell man I can't shoot this guy in the head?!?!?!!111/". Kyle from CoD thinks because he has an M4a1 he should be able to headshot everyone in WoW.

The demand for action and 'pew pew' rose and the entire foundation of RPG games was lost and now pointless systems like "leveling" and "XP gainz" and "skillz pointz" are implemented in nearly EVERY game because that is a feature from these RPGs that get people like Kyle from CoD hooked on a game they never even understood in the first place.

PioneerStew · July 2014

Originally posted by EQAbner
I see people frequently calling the old ways outdated and/or boring.

I for one like the trinity system.

I also like grinding (some anyway).

Perhaps I am in the minority but that's just the way it is.

I'm not saying I won't try new things. I try almost every MMORPG that comes out. I just don't agree with poo-pooing the old ways.

I like having specific roles (whether or not that is the trinity), so I certainly agree with you there.

I can only stomach grinding if the combat is enough fun, and the world sufficiently interesting and immersive to sustain it; and lets face it, a lot of mmo quests simply provide a framework for grinding anyhow. Unfortunately the worlds in many new games allow little room for immersion or exploration as they are filled with trivial crap and pointless achievements.

Kyleran · July 2014

Originally posted by DMKano
There's nothing wrong with liking a particular style of game.

For me personally it comes down to games and not specific features.

Example I loved EQ1 - but I also really liked AoC, and a shooter like Defiance, Terraria, MK series, SWG, ArcheAge, Diablo series, etc.... a lot of my favorite games have completely different features.

Isolating a specific feature (like tab target or action combat etc...) is fine, but IMO just because I liked it one game, doesn't mean I'll like it another game.

I loved mob grinding in EQ1, I hated it in many other games.

So in the end - for me - games as a whole far outweigh their individual features.

While the features of a specific MMORPG are important, how they work together is what delivers a good experience, and while to this day I don't mind mob grinding in DAOC, (even solo) I find L2 to be way over the top and I hate it there.

Now there are some mechanic that made older titles more entertaining for me, because they basically slowed the game play down so players had time to interact with each other, especially by typing rather than voice comms.

I think that's the one big change, or missing component of modern MMO's, they are so fast paced that there's really not much time to interact with others, especially while you are involved in questing or combat. (crafting of course provides some socialization time)

Of course, if you are not looking to socialize in your MMO's, then this is a welcome change in design, but for me, not so much.

And like the OP, I like tab target combat, though I've never really tabbed to a target in a game, I always deliberately select them via mouse normally, not by cycling through the tab button.

Yeah, I like the old ways too.

Dibdabs · July 2014

Each to their own, but I find The Trinity boring, uninspired, limited in scope and really suited for people who can't think and adapt quickly. It's the mmorpg equivalent of Painting By Numbers.

DamonVile · July 2014

Gaming should be more about finding what you like, not sitting around on a forum talking about what you hate.

Caskio · July 2014

Originally posted by FelixMajor
It keeps coming up because the people who never understood why the RPGs and MMORPGs were initially designed these ways was to allow a playstyle more similar to DnD playsets and rules. Ex. The roll of the dice determining an outcome. The RPGs like this were more of a semi cinematic, and more strategic. You would need to think about the fight, think about your options and the outcomes/consequences.

It wasn't until Kyle, 4 year CoD veteran, started playing WoW and said - "What the hell man I can't shoot this guy in the head?!?!?!!111/". Kyle from CoD thinks because he has an M4a1 he should be able to headshot everyone in WoW.

The demand for action and 'pew pew' rose and the entire foundation of RPG games was lost and now pointless systems like "leveling" and "XP gainz" and "skillz pointz" are implemented in nearly EVERY game because that is a feature from these RPGs that get people like Kyle from CoD hooked on a game they never even understood in the first place.

When I think of the old ways I think of the role play and social aspects of the MMORPG. I want that with action combat. I'm not a big fan of tab-target.

Fingz · July 2014

I like GW2 but the boss fights reminded me of those Benny Hill, Yakitty Sax chase scenes where Benny and his cohorts are running away from the police. It's chaos.

I like to grind when I'm in the mood. I don't like grinding when it's very extreme, like when you have to kill 20,000 of something to gain faction.

Dibdabs · July 2014

[mod edit]

AlBQuirky · July 2014

Originally posted by DMKano
There's nothing wrong with liking a particular style of game.For me personally it comes down to games and not specific features.Example I loved EQ1 - but I also really liked AoC, and a shooter like Defiance, Terraria, MK series, SWG, ArcheAge, Diablo series, etc.... a lot of my favorite games have completely different features.Isolating a specific feature (like tab target or action combat etc...) is fine, but IMO just because I liked it one game, doesn't mean I'll like it another game.I loved mob grinding in EQ1, I hated it in many other games.So in the end - for me - games as a whole far outweigh their individual features.

I agree with this. It is more about how a game fits together that matters most to me.

If I may ask, what was it about EQ mob grinding that it enjoyed? I'm just curious

AlBQuirky · July 2014

Originally posted by DamonVile
Gaming should be more about finding what you like, not sitting around on a forum talking about what you hate.

If only I could find an MMO I liked...

Wizard101, which I am playing currently, I expect to last maybe 4-6 months. Then I'll be bored with their questing system.

Cephus404 · July 2014

While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

PioneerStew · July 2014

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by DamonVile
Gaming should be more about finding what you like, not sitting around on a forum talking about what you hate.

If only I could find an MMO I liked...

Wizard101, which I am playing currently, I expect to last maybe 4-6 months. Then I'll be bored with their questing system.

Have you tried P101? Its a lot of fun.

EQAbner · July 2014

Originally posted by Dibdabs
Each to their own, but I find The Trinity boring, uninspired, limited in scope and really suited for people who can't think and adapt quickly. It's the mmorpg equivalent of Painting By Numbers.

"Each to their own, but I find the Trinity boring, uninspired, limited in scope" = Your opinion

"really suited for people who can't think and adapt quickly" = Your trolling

"It's the mmorpg equivalent of Painting by Numbers" = Bonus trolling

You deserve your exp penalty. /neener

EQAbner · July 2014

Originally posted by Cephus404
While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

Well hey thanks for your speech. It doesn't really address the OP but oh well. Perhaps you weren't addressing the OP. /shrug

Torik · July 2014

Originally posted by FelixMajor
It keeps coming up because the people who never understood why the RPGs and MMORPGs were initially designed these ways was to allow a playstyle more similar to DnD playsets and rules. Ex. The roll of the dice determining an outcome. The RPGs like this were more of a semi cinematic, and more strategic. You would need to think about the fight, think about your options and the outcomes/consequences.

The problem with this line of thinking is that MMORPG's do not really play like PnP RPGS in the long run. PnP campaigns do not have a grind since if the campaign gets too repetive and boring, the players simply threaten to replace the GM and the pace improves. The reliance for grinds a filler will always differentite MMORPGs from old school PnP RPGs.

Cephus404 · July 2014

Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Cephus404
While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

Well hey thanks for your speech. It doesn't really address the OP but oh well. Perhaps you weren't addressing the OP. /shrug

It exactly addressed the OP. You like the old ways but the marketplace has voted against you. Too bad, so sad. The majority always wins in these situations. The sooner you deal with the way reality actually works and not how you wish it worked, the happier you'll be. You still won't get your way, but at least you'll understand why it happened.

Cephus404 · July 2014

Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by FelixMajor
It keeps coming up because the people who never understood why the RPGs and MMORPGs were initially designed these ways was to allow a playstyle more similar to DnD playsets and rules. Ex. The roll of the dice determining an outcome. The RPGs like this were more of a semi cinematic, and more strategic. You would need to think about the fight, think about your options and the outcomes/consequences.

The problem with this line of thinking is that MMORPG's do not really play like PnP RPGS in the long run. PnP campaigns do not have a grind since if the campaign gets too repetive and boring, the players simply threaten to replace the GM and the pace improves. The reliance for grinds a filler will always differentite MMORPGs from old school PnP RPGs.

Ding ding ding ding! We have a winnah!

Computer RPGs and PnP RPGs have nothing whatsoever in common. This is especially true of MMOs, where the developers have to keep you coming back and paying your monthly fee or buying things out of the cash shop so they can stay in business. When you're sitting around a table and things get boring, you can change things up or heck, get up and go do something else. There's nothing forcing you to keep playing the same game if you're not having fun. With an MMO though, they have to keep you playing without incurring a lot of cost (ie. programmers making new content) and that's where the grind comes in. It's carrot and stick, you come back and repeat the same content time and time again because you want the reward at the end and you're willing to pay to get some digital doohickey or online title.

In a PnP game, if things get dull, the GM can just skip all the unfun stuff and move on to something enjoyable. You don't get that in an MMO, you have to grind through all the dull, obnoxious nonsense.

Kyleran · July 2014

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Cephus404
While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

Well hey thanks for your speech. It doesn't really address the OP but oh well. Perhaps you weren't addressing the OP. /shrug

It exactly addressed the OP. You like the old ways but the marketplace has voted against you. Too bad, so sad. The majority always wins in these situations. The sooner you deal with the way reality actually works and not how you wish it worked, the happier you'll be. You still won't get your way, but at least you'll understand why it happened.

Yeah, no doubt, that's why the only cars we can buy today are 4 door sedans like Accords and Camreys, oh wait, that's not true, there is a wide plethora of automobiles from Mini-Coopers to Escalades to F1-150's to BMW's to Lambos, some with very small markets compared to the sedans.

Or how the only place to eat out at is McDonalds or other fast food, ....no wait, there is a wide variety of restaurants, at all price ranges, so the theory fails there too.

How about movies, they're all the same right? Hey, they cost millions of dollars to make, yet there is considerable variety for a movie goer to chose from, so again, your theory fails once again. Many movies only appeal to a very small niche market.

OK, so maybe it's just MMORPG's that fall into this theory, and it shows by the only successful games being WOW clones, wait, but what about EVE, or some of the new titles coming out from a host of indie developers like CU, SA, SC etc...... darn, again your theory fails.

While the majority will always be catered to in greatest number, there is always room for the niche market in almost any product you can name.

OK, maybe not the electric power generation market, but that's a rare exception.

Cephus404 · July 2014

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Cephus404
While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

Well hey thanks for your speech. It doesn't really address the OP but oh well. Perhaps you weren't addressing the OP. /shrug

It exactly addressed the OP. You like the old ways but the marketplace has voted against you. Too bad, so sad. The majority always wins in these situations. The sooner you deal with the way reality actually works and not how you wish it worked, the happier you'll be. You still won't get your way, but at least you'll understand why it happened.

Yeah, no doubt, that's why the only cars we can buy today are 4 door sedans like Accords and Camreys, oh wait, that's not true, there is a wide plethora of automobiles from Mini-Coopers to Escalades to F1-150's to BMW's to Lambos, some with very small markets compared to the sedans.

Or how the only place to eat out at is McDonalds or other fast food, ....no wait, there is a wide variety of restaurants, at all price ranges, so the theory fails there too.

How about movies, they're all the same right? Hey, they cost millions of dollars to make, yet there is considerable variety for a movie goer to chose from, so again, your theory fails once again. Many movies only appeal to a very small niche market.

OK, so maybe it's just MMORPG's that fall into this theory, and it shows by the only successful games being WOW clones, wait, but what about EVE, or some of the new titles coming out from a host of indie developers like CU, SA, SC etc...... darn, again your theory fails.

While the majority will always be catered to in greatest number, there is always room for the niche market in almost any product you can name.

OK, maybe not the electric power generation market, but that's a rare exception.

For all of those vehicles, there is a significant and financially viable market. The manufacturers make money selling their vehicles to the public. If they didn't, they'd go out of business. There is not a market for selling jetpacks or flying cars though and even though companies like Moller has tried for many years to make a flying car that people will buy, they're still failing.

Find a market, make a product, sell that product, make a profit. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's how business works. Even in movies, the ones that come out in theaters every week, those are made to appeal to an established audience. Sure, there are art house directors who make movies that play in bathrooms and never make a profit, but those people don't tend to last long, do they? They certainly don't produce a widely well-received product. You can find a niche product but you have to find a niche that can afford to pay for the product to be made. Where's the data that supports the production of a multi-million dollar niche MMO? I haven't seen it and apparently, neither have the majority of developers, that's why they're not making them.

Your fantasies just don't map to reality, sorry.

jmcdermottuk · July 2014

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by DMKano
There's nothing wrong with liking a particular style of game.

For me personally it comes down to games and not specific features.

Example I loved EQ1 - but I also really liked AoC, and a shooter like Defiance, Terraria, MK series, SWG, ArcheAge, Diablo series, etc.... a lot of my favorite games have completely different features.

Isolating a specific feature (like tab target or action combat etc...) is fine, but IMO just because I liked it one game, doesn't mean I'll like it another game.

I loved mob grinding in EQ1, I hated it in many other games.

So in the end - for me - games as a whole far outweigh their individual features.

I agree with this. It is more about how a game fits together that matters most to me.

If I may ask, what was it about EQ mob grinding that it enjoyed? I'm just curious

I also agree with DMKano and I'd like to offer my answer. It was the social side of the game, something that's completely gone today. The slower pace, the downtime and the resulting conversations which varied from the sublime to the rediculous to the downright hilarious at times. It was a completely different approach to the gameplay to what we see today, with the dungeon finders, 10 minute sweeps and no conversation apart from abuse and everyone calling each other noobs when things go wrong.

I started playing MMO's for a change of pace from my very hectic, adrenalin filled competetive FPS games. I played in several tournament ladders at CS and TFC in the late 90's and it was great rush, but to relax I wanted something slower and EQ was a perfect solution. It wasn't so much of a "game" and more of a world to inhabit and experience.

That tab target, auto attack, relaxed gameplay was what drew me in at first and as I get to know more people on my server and make more friends that enhanced the experience. A player's reputation was known, if he was good at his job or a ninja etc. When you log in and within 10 minutes you have 10 invites to join friends somewhere or join a raid for another guild because they're missing one of their key players, that's when you realise that you're known as a good player and people trust you. These days with the cross server LFG tools none of that matters. Call it rose coloured glasses if you want but I miss those days.

It was the same in DAoC, people actually had realm pride and everyone knew the heroes and villains. Just not the same today and I think a lot of that is down to them being games first and foremost, too little room to get off the rails and the ever quickening pace,both in gameplay and the time it takes to reach the level cap. But that's what today's market wants apparently. So unless I win the Euro Lottery and get enough to make my own MMO I'm kinda left hanging, hoping that the next one will be worth the effort. Fat chance of that.

iridescence · July 2014

Difference between games vs. cars or food or whatever whatever: Car buyers are willing to pay more for quality. No one expects to get a Lamborghini for the same price as a Toyota. Most gamers though, especially today ,want all kinds of features, complete with the most state of the art graphics but they want it to be free to play because why should you have to actually have to pay to enjoy a game? If we could have luxury games they would probably be of awesome quality but most people prefer free or really cheap and you get what you pay for.

Gestankfaust · July 2014

Originally posted by DamonVile
Gaming should be more about finding what you like, not sitting around on a forum talking about what you hate.

^This

EQAbner · July 2014

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Cephus404
While you're certainly welcome to like what you like, you have to understand that game mechanics change and evolve based on the preferences of the overall MMO-playing community, not just you. These companies are in business to make money, they always have been and they always will be. They need to cater to as many paying customers, or at least potentially paying customers, as they can so they can keep their investors and stockholders happy. The reason a lot of those old school elements went away is because the tastes of the majority changed and they don't want to play with those elements. The fact that you still do is irrelevant because you do not represent the majority. Nobody owes you a game that you want to play. You can only pick from the games that are available and choose one that you will spend your time and money on. If none appeal, you can go find something else to do.

Welcome to the real world.

Well hey thanks for your speech. It doesn't really address the OP but oh well. Perhaps you weren't addressing the OP. /shrug

It exactly addressed the OP. You like the old ways but the marketplace has voted against you. Too bad, so sad. The majority always wins in these situations. The sooner you deal with the way reality actually works and not how you wish it worked, the happier you'll be. You still won't get your way, but at least you'll understand why it happened.

Nope sorry. The response to the OP reads like it is trying to educate the OP by stating facts that everyone knows and no one disputes. Perhaps some superiority complex that manifests itself on forums. /shrug

The OP merely states that the old way is my preference, that I may be in the minority, I still try all the new games and that I dislike the poo-pooing of the old ways. Pretty simple and easy to understand.

nariusseldon · July 2014

Originally posted by EQAbner
I see people frequently calling the old ways outdated and/or boring.

I for one like the trinity system.

I also like grinding (some anyway).

Perhaps I am in the minority but that's just the way it is.

I'm not saying I won't try new things. I try almost every MMORPG that comes out. I just don't agree with poo-pooing the old ways.

and i don't like the old ways (particularly the time consuming raid + social + down time)

Yes, they are boring and by definition out-dated.

Oh, i do like grinding .. but combat needs to be fun like D3.

You like what you like, i like what i like. Let the market decide what to produce.

Kyleran · July 2014

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Cephus404

It exactly addressed the OP. You like the old ways but the marketplace has voted against you. Too bad, so sad. The majority always wins in these situations. The sooner you deal with the way reality actually works and not how you wish it worked, the happier you'll be. You still won't get your way, but at least you'll understand why it happened.

Yeah, no doubt, that's why the only cars we can buy today are 4 door sedans like Accords and Camreys, oh wait, that's not true, there is a wide plethora of automobiles from Mini-Coopers to Escalades to F1-150's to BMW's to Lambos, some with very small markets compared to the sedans.

Or how the only place to eat out at is McDonalds or other fast food, ....no wait, there is a wide variety of restaurants, at all price ranges, so the theory fails there too.

How about movies, they're all the same right? Hey, they cost millions of dollars to make, yet there is considerable variety for a movie goer to chose from, so again, your theory fails once again. Many movies only appeal to a very small niche market.

OK, so maybe it's just MMORPG's that fall into this theory, and it shows by the only successful games being WOW clones, wait, but what about EVE, or some of the new titles coming out from a host of indie developers like CU, SA, SC etc...... darn, again your theory fails.

While the majority will always be catered to in greatest number, there is always room for the niche market in almost any product you can name.

OK, maybe not the electric power generation market, but that's a rare exception.

For all of those vehicles, there is a significant and financially viable market. The manufacturers make money selling their vehicles to the public. If they didn't, they'd go out of business. There is not a market for selling jetpacks or flying cars though and even though companies like Moller has tried for many years to make a flying car that people will buy, they're still failing.

Jetpacks and flying cars are beyond today's technology, making MMO's with old school designs is not, invalid comparision.

Find a market, make a product, sell that product, make a profit. Lather, rinse, repeat. That's how business works. Even in movies, the ones that come out in theaters every week, those are made to appeal to an established audience. Sure, there are art house directors who make movies that play in bathrooms and never make a profit, but those people don't tend to last long, do they? They certainly don't produce a widely well-received product.

The Purge - $3 Million to make, $76M in revenues, resulted in a successful spin-off. Who would ever watch a movie about a group of people hiding in their house during a mythical night where murder is legal in the US? I assume the initial budget was based on the producer being unable to convince major studios that a greater investment was worthwhile, yet, due to his persistance and vision, he hit the jackpot. MMORPG developers could too if they moved off of the standard model they are obsessed with currently.

You can find a niche product but you have to find a niche that can afford to pay for the product to be made. Where's the data that supports the production of a multi-million dollar niche MMO? I haven't seen it and apparently, neither have the majority of developers, that's why they're not making them.

If no one ever attempts anything different, then the world will never find out if something different, and potentially better might be possible. Sometimes people need to take risks, even very expensive risks to achieve success.

Your fantasies just don't map to reality, sorry. My reality is just fine, yours on the other hand is so very dark, do you even play MMORPG's anymore?

Originally posted by iridescence

Difference between games vs. cars or food or whatever whatever: Car buyers are willing to pay more for quality. No one expects to get a Lamborghini for the same price as a Toyota. Most gamers though, especially today ,want all kinds of features, complete with the most state of the art graphics but they want it to be free to play because why should you have to actually have to pay to enjoy a game? If we could have luxury games they would probably be of awesome quality but most people prefer free or really cheap and you get what you pay for.

And this is a great point, in my examples, there is a cost variance, so people's willingness to pay more for luxury sportscars, or a certain utility found in something like a pick-up truck enable the market to provide more options. Perhaps if only the concept of a luxury MMORPG could be developed and sold we'd have some true variety.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

Originally posted by DamonVile
Gaming should be more about finding what you like, not sitting around on a forum talking about what you hate.

^This

I may quote this for a while, +1

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But I like the old ways

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV