While I largely agree with you (remyburke) I don't at all see the need to take a stance against the games in existence today. Let them live as long as they might.
What we need to do is look for those people who dare trying something else, and when we find them: Make sure they know we're with them, that there is a meaning to all their toil. And do what we can to help them out (which does not mean showing up from nowhere one day and telling them in so many words how they should be doing things because you know so well - I almost fell into that one because I was so full of my own ideas).
So... I've got mine, it's Adellion.
And you could check out that thing Ragosh is working at (you might find it discussed in the developer's corner under one of the top sub-forums).
And obviously these are not the only ones.
Many good games die or change completely before they see the light of day. Maybe we can change that by letting developers (and the people with the cash) know you're there. If there is a survey somewhere asking what kind of game you'd like to play: Tell them!
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I don't think permadeath is the answer. As others stated you can get a lag spike or an emergency may happen in real life that could cost you hundreds of hours of time. I do think a stiff death penalty should be added to force people to think before acting, however, before you can do this you need to cut the griefers out of the picture. To do this you simply need to have griefing penalties. You could make it where a player loses xp and even levels everytime he kills a lower player. Groups should not be excluded from this. If a group kills a lone person out there they should be penalized by the same methods. I would like to see how many people would want to have huge penalties with pvp if this were implemented. I think most of the people wanting stiff penalties prefer to grief other players rather than fight someone their own level. If you cut griefers out of the equation I have a feeling you will see a more cautious pvp enviroment and a more accepting community towards harsh death penalties.
As a rule I am for a death penalty in MMORPGs because it adds a bit of tension and zest to a game. I was rather dissapointed when EQ2 eliminated death shards and nerfed the xp penalty when you die. I think it took a little bit of the soul out of the game.
I also believe there ia a legitimate place for pvpers in MMORPGs. That said however, I don't like suffering a death penalty by getting ganked by some adolescent kid who spends hours after school leveling his warrior while I'm at work.
There are many compromises that can be worked into a game that allows a death penalty from NPCs and Pvprs while simultaneously while preventing pvpers from taking advantage of lower level players. For example:
If you gank peeps way below your level you incur a price on your head that makes you an irresistible target to other pvpers.
No one is allowed to loot your body if you are killed by an NPC. (Offsets the vulture instinct)
Pvpers are only allowed to loot bodies of players they have killed who are around their level. In other words a level 50 is not allowed to loot a level 20 character he has just ganked.
If a lowbie gets killed by a high level player, he/she does not suffer a death penalty but the killer suffers an xp penalty proportional to the difference in their levels.
If you kill someone around your own level they DO suffer a death penalty and you can loot their corpse of a SPECIFIC number of items.
These are just a few examples and obviously not all of them could be used in a single gamework in a single game. My point is that there is no reason that games cannot be balanced so that pvpers are forced to pick on someone their own size. This would result in keeping the game challenging and fair for players of all levels.
I started playing MMOs back wtih EQ1, before their first expansion. Back then I didnt like the death penalty, I could loose hours of work because of 1 mistake. But after time I began to understand it, then like it. The death penalty would cause you to become excited about the combat, you had the fear of death, you wouldnt just sit there thinking "oh no im gonna get killed again, guess ill just run back." it was more like "Is there anyway to get out of this situation wiht my life intact?"
My biggest problem is that most MMOs now just seem like the players are getting lower and lower quality. What skill does it take to get high lvl if you can just keep attacking the same mob over and over again untill they are dead, even if it takes 50 or more deaths. This trend in MMOs make me want to stop playing them and going back to something that has meaning.
Please NO Permadeath and NO long agonizing corpse runs.
I deal with enough grief and frustration in daily life and don't need to come home to game to deal with it too. Yes, a penalty is fair, yes xp debt or item decay is fine, i don't even mind short corpse runs, but to make it more painful than that is just too much. Again, I think the number one factor that makes a great game is F U N. Perm death, getting ganked over and over, losing items to other players or corpse runs that take you across a continent = no fun.
Sorry for saying but garret is a carebear and frank is right WoW pvp suks there is no risk its total joke.
A mmoprg need adraline rush and wow dont have it its tailor made for casual player EAYS AND PVP WITH NO RISK BG is a joke outdoor pvp almost dead its fps type of gameplay over and over again save to instance farm with no skill needed just for farm hp.
No wow is a joke a kids game who cant think and think there uber with easy gameplay and no risk lol no chellenge:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
For all of you out there who want to say that PvP/Death Penalty advocates don't get that it's "a game", what we are trying to say is that we want the PVP/Death Penaly because tat is what is fun for US.
And games = fun, right? So where are they for us?
Again, where are the choices?
Diablo HC and 98' UO illegal shards????? What else?
Permadeath and environmental challenges are the next great step in the evolution of MMORPGs. Only through true adversity will one feel accomplished. Only in truly knowing you can die will true adversity present itself.
SWG went to no DP with the NGE ( latest game "adjustment") No item decay, no wounds nothing.
If you don't know, SWG "was" a player driven economy.
Now it's down the toilet.
Without decay you only ever need one weapon, one set of armor until you hit a level to get the next higher/better items.
But it's hardly the need to replace on a regualr basis. It also killed out Musician and the Dancer professions.
So now we have Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Tailor, Dancer, Musician professions killed from no DP.
They foolishly implemented shipwright with a player repairable ability that killed that profession beyond intitial sales.
I'm playing and board of where I'm at so I just let the creature kill me and then allow the cloning aspect be my teleporter to a StarPort, lol.
It's as good as a recall spell !
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Ok well I have outlined my thoughts about death penaly/full loot in another thread and I'll quickly rehash alot of what I said.
Perma-death = big time no no. First of all lets say I get disconnected for some reason (power outage) and I get killed by some mob or other player while my character was logging out. This is extremely harsh and would cause many many players to quit, depending on the time it takes to lvl up a character. Now lets say they put in a system where if you lost connection then your character instantly logs out. If this were the case, what stops a player from pulling the wire on his connection to force an instant log out so that he does not have to deal with perma-death. That type of system would cause a severe balance problem for the game.
Death penalties should be based on the type of game you are playing. It has a lot to do with the type of economy the game uses. For instance in WoW, a game based on gear, a full loot system would really be hard to deal with. Some of the gear in this game takes monthes to aquire and would be unrealistic to impose a full loot system where all of that time would be lost. Now in UO, in a game that was driven more by player crafted items, it was not so bad to get killed and lose all your gear, because you could quickly and fairly cheaply resupply.
I dont feel that an experience penalty is a good ideal. I would rather lose gear, than lose time I spent developing my character. By devoloping my character I am refering more to the UO system of actually gaining skill. Compare that to WoW where one lvl 60 character can be exponentially greater than another lvl 60 just because of the gear he has. In UO it had more to do with player skill than the actual gear that he was wearing. Granted I am refering to pre UO-R and all the item insuring and the gear that allowed you to cast without reagents etc.
For a game to be able to impose a full loot system like pre UO-R then the economy needs to be based off of player crafted items so that if a player dies to either a mob or a PK then that player has a steady supply of competetive goods in which to reequip so that he is not a useless toon. Games based off of "uber" gear can not impose this strict of a penalty. While there was good magic gear in UO, the gear that was created by Grand Master crafters could compete with the magic gear found as loot in the game. For example on a scale of 1 to 100, if the best gear in the game was a 100, then the player crafted gear would be about a 90.
I am a big fan of full loot games and player driven economies in which player crafted gear matches or can at least compete with gear found as loot. I think that a full loot system is death penalty enough and that no skill loss is necesarry. I think this gives players that white knuckled edge that keeps them craving player interaction and combat. Its the rush that comes with combat, and while griefing may occur, it also means that if that player is griefing you, that if and when you kill him that he has to go through the same loss that you did. In games such as WoW, if a group of lvl 40's team up and kill the lvl 60 that is griefing them, then all the lvl 60 has to do is respawn and continure to be a pain in the ass. If that lvl 60 had to go and get new gear (granted I dont like the ideal of losing end game gear in WoW because of the non-availability of fairly cheap competetive gear) then at least the lvl 40's would have a reprieve from the constant bagering of the lvl 60. If I am an alliance lvl 60 why would i bother going help some lvl 40's to kill a lvl 60 horde, if I know I am not inflicting any real damage to the horde player. In a game that has penalties for death I am more willing to help other players in need because I know that I am actually helping them because that player will not be able to harass the other alliance players, at least for as long as it takes for that player to go back to town get new gear and run back to wherever he was harassing the lower lvl alliance players.
I completely aggree with the risk vs reward ideal. If certain gears gives you an overwhelming advantage in PvP, then there should be a risk in using that gear. I think this is just another reason to reduce the dependency on gear rather than player skill. Although I may be upset about the loss of my gear, its not going to make me quit the game. I would rather know that my victory over an oponent came from my skills as a player, not from some exponential advantage I had because I had better gear.
I know there are some spots I missed in this post and other things that I did not explain as fully as I would have like, but I dont need this post to be a 10 page thesis on what I think makes for the best PvP environment.
I think the light death penalty or lacks of death penaltys are designed to accomidate the maximum number of players but this is not necesarily good. Without fear of loosing something players can go wild and greif or easily earn experience. If they can loose stats or items then they will not only have to work hard but they will feel more satisfaction from the levels they have and people will proberly respect them for it. People become too powerful for the game because there is not risk involved they cant loose anything.
Death penalties are necessary, otherwise what's the point in having hitpoints at all? Or healing classes for that matter? If death is meaningless, you can just keep doing the same thing over and over until you either get lucky or give up. There absolutely must be something to keep you on your toes, to add excitement and to make the struggle worth it. If something comes too easy, there's no sense of accomplishment and the reward might as well have been given for logging on.
However, no death penalty should cost you countless hours of play time. Losing XP for instance, is one way. But how much do you take away? If you can get some kind of resurrection and get most of it back then okay, but what if you can't? That might be 2 days play time for nothing.
Players need to feel like they're progressing all the time. There is no point playing a game where you do the same things over and over and there's no noticable advancement.
Finding your corpse is a definite must in a DP system. I think almost every game has this, whether it be respawning at a graveyard or at the nearest binding area or whatever. So let's take that as a given.
The question is what punishment? I think it should depend on the way you died or in what situation. PvP first, I think. If someone 50 levels higher than you kills you, I don't think you should get much of a penalty at all, because that loss is a given. You were ganked. No big deal really, loot your stuff and get on with life. But if you lose to someone 50 levels lower than you, you deserve to lose something. Maybe they should be allowed to loot one item from your body, irrelevant of whether it's normally tradable or not. If you tried to gank someone and got wasted, that's your own fault.
PvE now. It's a tough call. How abotu combining a standard XP loss with the WoW style of equipment damage. If you get stomped by a big creature your armour takes a hit. Maybe your new breastplate drops from 60 armour to 59. Maybe your sword drops from 50 damage to only 48. Seems logical to me - equipment takes natural damage from a big fight. BUT (and here's the cool part) to save people complaining about their gear being crap because the healer was a little slow, give the armour an XP bar of it's own and as you kill stuff it earns back it's original stats. Maybe even take a percentage of their regular XP earnings until the gear is fixed. So the player doesn't lose any XP themselves (unless their equipment is all at 0XP!) and they can continue to level as normal, getting their equipment stats back as they do it.
I now wish to take out a patent on this idea before some dev comes and steals it!
BTW, I like the idea of perma-death like in ToA, but it needs some tweaking. I understand that it's going to be pretty hard to actually 100% die in ToA. Maybe instead of standard deaths they'll have periods of unconsciousness or something to emulate standard game death.
I happen to appreciate WoWs system. Some may think that its weak but who the hell wants to run up and die, make a 5 min run and die, make a 5 min run and die, make a 5 min run and die, untill you eventually get it done. To say it detracts from community is a little presumptious.
In the end it just depends on what your looking for. I can have just as much fun (and have) playing in WoWs system as I can in EQ1s system. Only in EQ1 it was quite a bit more annoying.
I just think that if you people want to talk about a strict death penalty as being good then you need to make a game with perma death and see how well it goes over. Several mmo's toyed with the idea and it nearly always (in my experience) gets shot down overwhelmingly by the community. If you think the chance to lose everything you have worked for is a great idea more power too you, your probably a power gamer and have time for that. Just remember that there a lot of people that would like to play but more casually and with out risk of losing everying in 5 minutes that took you 2 weeks of play to gain. Wich that 2 weeks equates to only about 10 hours tops. So then the casual gamer is faced with a daunting task, they don't have time to regain that lost gear in a few days of power gamming. It would take weeks.
It was said that the weak death penalties accomodate the most people and I agree with that. Thats not to say I wouldn't mind trying a game with perma-death either
Perma death can not work. If you think so, then you are most likely the person saying that just to spite the people who want full loot pvp etc. The most typical responce I see is "well if your so hardcore and want full loot, then make death permanent". This ideal is absurd. Any player no matter if you are a hardcore power gamer, pvp, or roleplayer, you will be very pissed off if you died because of disconnection or sudden power outage. How fair is it to spend monthes or years playing a character only to have it lost forever because of something you have zero control over?
If the game puts in mechanics to prevent death due to disconnect or power outage, then players will take advantage of it. Example, if im in a fight with either a player or mob, and it starts to go bad then all i do is pull the connection on my internet.
While im all for full loot, I understand that games such as EQ or WoW, do not lend themselves to that system because of the difficulty in obtaining competetive gear. However games such as UO made perfect use of this system. While there was good magic gear that people did not want to lose, it was not so bad that it would cause you to quit the game. (im speaking of pre UO-R, before item insuring and gear based game play)
I think games in general now put too much emphasis on gear rather than player skill. I not saying that games such as WoW or EQ do not take skill, im just saying that they are more dependent on gear than player skill.
Having a harsh death penalty makes the game much more exciting. Whats the point of working hard to perfect your character if you can't actually have pvp. Also, whats the point of having great pvp if nothing happens when you die? I understand that having too harsh of a penalty can discourage players but it keeps people from rushing head first into every situation. Also having some kind of an alignment penalty would solve people completely ganking low levels. Cmon, after a certain level, its got to be more exciting being outside of a "safe zone".
Recently I have quit WoW after making a level 60 priest just 2 months after the game came out I sold that account and then a few months later I started again when I hit level 56 on my druid I quit again... What was it I quit for this time besides boredom of trying to get that uber weapon that is actually useless once you get it.. well I quit to play ULTIMA ONLINE again!!
Its been 2 weeks now and I literally have NOT stopped playing, I play till 6am in the morning usually then go to bed for about 6 hours and Im back at it again! You see, WoW is too carebear for me.. I can't even talk crap to the horde if im alliance all I can do is /chicken... so frickin lame!
In UO there is always a risk, there is a thrill, a rush! OMG if you guys could have gotten on UO anytime before UO: AOS you'd have loved it! I now play a free shard that is in the UO:R period and its just as good as it used to be!
I cannot stand all of these games with NO death penalty.. it sickens me! You see in UO I dont have to do any work because I am actually skilled in PvP.. I let everyone else go hunt and get me those vanquishing weapons and I steal them with my disarm thief and give them to my warrior.. its just that awesome! I camp vendors with friends and kill people after they buy stuff off of them to get what I want! I make my living by killing people!! I dont have to go kill monsters all day or go into instances all day like on WoW.. Instead I kill people and I risk dying myself.
Yes I get mad when I die, I get furious if I had something valuable on me.. And yes when I played OSI (Pay to play UO) I must have said "I QUIT UO" like 50 times, but I never did.. I kept coming back for more, I had to get revenge.. I got it plenty of times! I can go on and on how thrilling a death penalty makes the game but thats not going to change anything because there will ALWAYS be more newbs in games that whine about losing their stuff to people like me and that is why they have made all new MMO's "carebear" games. Thanks for ruining MMO's as we know it newbs!
Originally posted by Morketh there will ALWAYS be more newbs in games that whine about losing their stuff to people like me and that is why they have made all new MMO's "carebear" games. Thanks for ruining MMO's as we know it newbs!
The irony of that statement could not escape even you could it Morketh?
Ok, I have read a lot from this thread, but not all. I play EVE, where the penalty is severe, the gain for the killer is minimal and he usually gets a status hit for it. The tention is incredible. I have friends not being able to log on for 3 days after being killed, before they regain their nerves. So you learn and go on. Experience, real experience, of how to avoid most situations and having friends nearby is the key here. You can even set bounties on these bastards..heh. In fantasy, being the killer is harder to kontrol in a realistic way. I come to that at the end of this post.
I also play WOW-PVP and it is just not enough. Its like, oh well, up again. It feels like an empty threat . Often, in contempt, I sit down while I get killed by someone. In EVE you try to run, plea for your life, anything. How can you be proud of your accomplishments, being a big 60th lvl orcwarrior, if any 8 year old can manage this as well.
Of course, both options should exist, but I am pretty sure, that longterm commitment from players comes from real challenges, real cooperation, real immersion. My guess as to why EVE won over WOW is, that while EVE is from 2003 its still getting bigger and better, while WOW already is on the decline. WOW is a "kids game", having you on a tight leash, even controlling aspects, that should be free (soulbound items, sure it works from the technical side, but honestly...). Nothing wrong with kids game, mind you, but adults will turn to other things eventually.
Im not trying to sell EVE, as this game has its own bad sides and there is a reason I needed a break from it and tried WOW. Its so much more slowpaced then WOW for one thing. And the roleplaying part is just not there, sadly and I have played RPG for over 20 years...
Anyway, here is a suggestion for the fantasykills. You are not killing, but defeating another player. This presents some options. He's at your mercy - you could settle for a token or anything, or kill the other, take the stuff and get a statushit for being a killer or something. Being able to bounty people helps too, but only if the deathpenalty is severe. I am aware, that some people would love to be the nastiest bastard around and have the status to prove it. But what good is this, when you cant be around cities anymore, as the guards will come after you at once? You become an outlaw, just as in EVE, but you pay a real price for it. Sure, this is all depending on which kind of setting you got to begin with, but there should be a penalty for killing as well as a bonus.
So nice to see that so many people are for stricter death penalties. Remember when these games were a challenge? In WoW for example, it is simply inevitable to get to levle 60: anyone can do it, even solo! I remember in EQ when if you died a few times you could tread water exp. wise for days not gaining anything because of stupid mistakes.
My first MMORPG was UO, infact I played it really as my first online game. Wow, what an experiance, some might say life changing. I'm not going to go on about it, but death penalties is needed.
The death penalty just makes everything so much more fun, whether people directly realise this or not. You would be scared to leave town incase you were attacked. Someone might argue as to why someone would enjoy this - well it's for the same reason people enjoy roller coasters, the fear factor.
Also it gives a greater sense of "owning" things for me. If you know an item could be stolen, then you will trasure it more, than something that is just always yours. People will always opt for the easy route and demand it, but they need to realise it's not the best thing for them.
Of course there is also the fact with strict penalties, you can steal things from people and so on. Which is really good fun if you want to. (There is always consequences though).
I played UO until trammel came around; which sucked the life out of the game- and I have NEVER played another MMORPG since. I looked at EverQuest as I look at softcore porn; not my bag- where's the action?
I'm somewhere in the middle.
I don't agree with many of the perma-death ideas that are constantly being tossed around by people who come off as complete quacks.
I also don't agree with the care-bears who feel you should take a slap on the wrist.
I feel full loot is a place to start, leaving room for one additional penaty- I wouldn't mind temporary stat loss, temporary- like not an hour; but not a few minutes... but I think XP loss is gay. Then again I think grinding for XP is gay. I'm all grown up now and really don't have time for that grinding crap again.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
To be quite honest I love PvP; however, the type of PvP I enjoy is roleplayed PvP. The best example of this type of PvP is found if a select few of the free shards of Ultima Online. In the shard that I frequented you had to actually have a reason for PvP and both people knew what type of situation was comming around. The penalty for loosing a roleplayed PvP battle (unless it was just a competition between friends or to see who was the better fighter) was permadeath. Straight up, if you had PvP that was started up b/c of hurt feelings and you lost - you were dead and your character was erased. Now that's a death penalty. Of course, this made that sort of PvP very rare - but it still happened every once in a while and the whole shard usually turned up to watch the competition. The winner celebrated with his friends in a pub and the looser had a burial ceremoney, sure it was a complete uber nerd event - but I still enjoyed it.
I agree with Frank Mignone 100%. MMO is for massive.. if you do not want to fight with others then MMO's are not for you. That is just MY opinion. However.. game companies now give you the option to play on NON-PVP servers etc.. and if you choose to get on a pvp or partial pvp server and you get killed.. do not call it being ganked or griefed.. you choose to be on the server then deal with it. I hear people complain that I am being griefed etc.. well you know what go play on a damn none pvp server... and if you get ganked alot.. then its time to make some friends and allies now isnt it.. its called socializing!
I love PvP.. its the only TRUE end game if you ask me... and its always fun and its always new.!
MMO's don't have to involve such events as getting killed at all.
In most games, it would be a semi-requirement, but every now and then games are made in a setting that makes it differently. And a game could run on such premises as "everybody have always cooperated and never knew any different concept" and simply rule out PvP. It could even be done well, if cooperation was rewarding, exciting... That only rules out PvP death, though, not death.
There is no single true MMO concept for me. I have favoured concepts only.
Favoured: Roleplaying. Reason for using MMO: More flexible and dynamic response in dialogue, as it is actually made up by another human mind in response to your actions.
Favoured: Combat, open PvP. Reason for using MMO: More randomness, more strategies, possibility of betrayal.
Also, the presence of other real people is interesting in a game.
However, these are ideals, not true standards of existing games. The point is: MMO isn't this or that only.
The use of the word 'gay' though... Please don't.
It is
Offensive and at best inaccurate (some people might not want to have part of their life used as a negative term like that)
Easily replaced by better words
Right out of South Park
Irrelevant and completely void of any constructive information
I am tempted to add points, but it isn't to the topic. I simply get frustrated with the use of certain words.
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Comments
While I largely agree with you (remyburke) I don't at all see the need to take a stance against the games in existence today. Let them live as long as they might.
What we need to do is look for those people who dare trying something else, and when we find them: Make sure they know we're with them, that there is a meaning to all their toil. And do what we can to help them out (which does not mean showing up from nowhere one day and telling them in so many words how they should be doing things because you know so well - I almost fell into that one because I was so full of my own ideas).
So... I've got mine, it's Adellion.
And you could check out that thing Ragosh is working at (you might find it discussed in the developer's corner under one of the top sub-forums).
And obviously these are not the only ones.
Many good games die or change completely before they see the light of day. Maybe we can change that by letting developers (and the people with the cash) know you're there. If there is a survey somewhere asking what kind of game you'd like to play: Tell them!
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
Sorry?? You want permadeath and twitch-based combat??
In the immortal words of Enigma, maybe you should try a DIFFERENT genre.
As a rule I am for a death penalty in MMORPGs because it adds a bit of tension and zest to a game. I was rather dissapointed when EQ2 eliminated death shards and nerfed the xp penalty when you die. I think it took a little bit of the soul out of the game.
I also believe there ia a legitimate place for pvpers in MMORPGs. That said however, I don't like suffering a death penalty by getting ganked by some adolescent kid who spends hours after school leveling his warrior while I'm at work.
There are many compromises that can be worked into a game that allows a death penalty from NPCs and Pvprs while simultaneously while preventing pvpers from taking advantage of lower level players. For example:
If you gank peeps way below your level you incur a price on your head that makes you an irresistible target to other pvpers.
No one is allowed to loot your body if you are killed by an NPC. (Offsets the vulture instinct)
Pvpers are only allowed to loot bodies of players they have killed who are around their level. In other words a level 50 is not allowed to loot a level 20 character he has just ganked.
If a lowbie gets killed by a high level player, he/she does not suffer a death penalty but the killer suffers an xp penalty proportional to the difference in their levels.
If you kill someone around your own level they DO suffer a death penalty and you can loot their corpse of a SPECIFIC number of items.
These are just a few examples and obviously not all of them could be used in a single gamework in a single game. My point is that there is no reason that games cannot be balanced so that pvpers are forced to pick on someone their own size. This would result in keeping the game challenging and fair for players of all levels.
I started playing MMOs back wtih EQ1, before their first expansion. Back then I didnt like the death penalty, I could loose hours of work because of 1 mistake. But after time I began to understand it, then like it. The death penalty would cause you to become excited about the combat, you had the fear of death, you wouldnt just sit there thinking "oh no im gonna get killed again, guess ill just run back." it was more like "Is there anyway to get out of this situation wiht my life intact?"
My biggest problem is that most MMOs now just seem like the players are getting lower and lower quality. What skill does it take to get high lvl if you can just keep attacking the same mob over and over again untill they are dead, even if it takes 50 or more deaths. This trend in MMOs make me want to stop playing them and going back to something that has meaning.
Please NO Permadeath and NO long agonizing corpse runs.
I deal with enough grief and frustration in daily life and don't need to come home to game to deal with it too. Yes, a penalty is fair, yes xp debt or item decay is fine, i don't even mind short corpse runs, but to make it more painful than that is just too much. Again, I think the number one factor that makes a great game is F U N. Perm death, getting ganked over and over, losing items to other players or corpse runs that take you across a continent = no fun.
No bitchers.
Sorry for saying but garret is a carebear and frank is right WoW pvp suks there is no risk its total joke.
A mmoprg need adraline rush and wow dont have it its tailor made for casual player EAYS AND PVP WITH NO RISK BG is a joke outdoor pvp almost dead its fps type of gameplay over and over again save to instance farm with no skill needed just for farm hp.
No wow is a joke a kids game who cant think and think there uber with easy gameplay and no risk lol no chellenge:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Gungadin: www.trialsofascension.com
For all of you out there who want to say that PvP/Death Penalty advocates don't get that it's "a game", what we are trying to say is that we want the PVP/Death Penaly because tat is what is fun for US.
And games = fun, right? So where are they for us?
Again, where are the choices?
Diablo HC and 98' UO illegal shards????? What else?
Permadeath and environmental challenges are the next great step in the evolution of MMORPGs. Only through true adversity will one feel accomplished. Only in truly knowing you can die will true adversity present itself.
here's an example of no DP in an mmorpg.
SWG went to no DP with the NGE ( latest game "adjustment") No item decay, no wounds nothing.
If you don't know, SWG "was" a player driven economy.
Now it's down the toilet.
Without decay you only ever need one weapon, one set of armor until you hit a level to get the next higher/better items.
But it's hardly the need to replace on a regualr basis. It also killed out Musician and the Dancer professions.
So now we have Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Tailor, Dancer, Musician professions killed from no DP.
They foolishly implemented shipwright with a player repairable ability that killed that profession beyond intitial sales.
I'm playing and board of where I'm at so I just let the creature kill me and then allow the cloning aspect be my teleporter to a StarPort, lol.
It's as good as a recall spell !
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Ok well I have outlined my thoughts about death penaly/full loot in another thread and I'll quickly rehash alot of what I said.
Perma-death = big time no no. First of all lets say I get disconnected for some reason (power outage) and I get killed by some mob or other player while my character was logging out. This is extremely harsh and would cause many many players to quit, depending on the time it takes to lvl up a character. Now lets say they put in a system where if you lost connection then your character instantly logs out. If this were the case, what stops a player from pulling the wire on his connection to force an instant log out so that he does not have to deal with perma-death. That type of system would cause a severe balance problem for the game.
Death penalties should be based on the type of game you are playing. It has a lot to do with the type of economy the game uses. For instance in WoW, a game based on gear, a full loot system would really be hard to deal with. Some of the gear in this game takes monthes to aquire and would be unrealistic to impose a full loot system where all of that time would be lost. Now in UO, in a game that was driven more by player crafted items, it was not so bad to get killed and lose all your gear, because you could quickly and fairly cheaply resupply.
I dont feel that an experience penalty is a good ideal. I would rather lose gear, than lose time I spent developing my character. By devoloping my character I am refering more to the UO system of actually gaining skill. Compare that to WoW where one lvl 60 character can be exponentially greater than another lvl 60 just because of the gear he has. In UO it had more to do with player skill than the actual gear that he was wearing. Granted I am refering to pre UO-R and all the item insuring and the gear that allowed you to cast without reagents etc.
For a game to be able to impose a full loot system like pre UO-R then the economy needs to be based off of player crafted items so that if a player dies to either a mob or a PK then that player has a steady supply of competetive goods in which to reequip so that he is not a useless toon. Games based off of "uber" gear can not impose this strict of a penalty. While there was good magic gear in UO, the gear that was created by Grand Master crafters could compete with the magic gear found as loot in the game. For example on a scale of 1 to 100, if the best gear in the game was a 100, then the player crafted gear would be about a 90.
I am a big fan of full loot games and player driven economies in which player crafted gear matches or can at least compete with gear found as loot. I think that a full loot system is death penalty enough and that no skill loss is necesarry. I think this gives players that white knuckled edge that keeps them craving player interaction and combat. Its the rush that comes with combat, and while griefing may occur, it also means that if that player is griefing you, that if and when you kill him that he has to go through the same loss that you did. In games such as WoW, if a group of lvl 40's team up and kill the lvl 60 that is griefing them, then all the lvl 60 has to do is respawn and continure to be a pain in the ass. If that lvl 60 had to go and get new gear (granted I dont like the ideal of losing end game gear in WoW because of the non-availability of fairly cheap competetive gear) then at least the lvl 40's would have a reprieve from the constant bagering of the lvl 60. If I am an alliance lvl 60 why would i bother going help some lvl 40's to kill a lvl 60 horde, if I know I am not inflicting any real damage to the horde player. In a game that has penalties for death I am more willing to help other players in need because I know that I am actually helping them because that player will not be able to harass the other alliance players, at least for as long as it takes for that player to go back to town get new gear and run back to wherever he was harassing the lower lvl alliance players.
I completely aggree with the risk vs reward ideal. If certain gears gives you an overwhelming advantage in PvP, then there should be a risk in using that gear. I think this is just another reason to reduce the dependency on gear rather than player skill. Although I may be upset about the loss of my gear, its not going to make me quit the game. I would rather know that my victory over an oponent came from my skills as a player, not from some exponential advantage I had because I had better gear.
I know there are some spots I missed in this post and other things that I did not explain as fully as I would have like, but I dont need this post to be a 10 page thesis on what I think makes for the best PvP environment.
First I play on EQ, after DAoC (4years) and I think daoc has the best death system...
maybe when mmorpg will be as complete as role game...
Death penalties are necessary, otherwise what's the point in having hitpoints at all? Or healing classes for that matter? If death is meaningless, you can just keep doing the same thing over and over until you either get lucky or give up. There absolutely must be something to keep you on your toes, to add excitement and to make the struggle worth it. If something comes too easy, there's no sense of accomplishment and the reward might as well have been given for logging on.
However, no death penalty should cost you countless hours of play time. Losing XP for instance, is one way. But how much do you take away? If you can get some kind of resurrection and get most of it back then okay, but what if you can't? That might be 2 days play time for nothing.
Players need to feel like they're progressing all the time. There is no point playing a game where you do the same things over and over and there's no noticable advancement.
Finding your corpse is a definite must in a DP system. I think almost every game has this, whether it be respawning at a graveyard or at the nearest binding area or whatever. So let's take that as a given.
The question is what punishment? I think it should depend on the way you died or in what situation.
PvP first, I think. If someone 50 levels higher than you kills you, I don't think you should get much of a penalty at all, because that loss is a given. You were ganked. No big deal really, loot your stuff and get on with life. But if you lose to someone 50 levels lower than you, you deserve to lose something. Maybe they should be allowed to loot one item from your body, irrelevant of whether it's normally tradable or not. If you tried to gank someone and got wasted, that's your own fault.
PvE now. It's a tough call. How abotu combining a standard XP loss with the WoW style of equipment damage. If you get stomped by a big creature your armour takes a hit. Maybe your new breastplate drops from 60 armour to 59. Maybe your sword drops from 50 damage to only 48. Seems logical to me - equipment takes natural damage from a big fight.
BUT (and here's the cool part) to save people complaining about their gear being crap because the healer was a little slow, give the armour an XP bar of it's own and as you kill stuff it earns back it's original stats. Maybe even take a percentage of their regular XP earnings until the gear is fixed. So the player doesn't lose any XP themselves (unless their equipment is all at 0XP!) and they can continue to level as normal, getting their equipment stats back as they do it.
I now wish to take out a patent on this idea before some dev comes and steals it!
BTW, I like the idea of perma-death like in ToA, but it needs some tweaking. I understand that it's going to be pretty hard to actually 100% die in ToA. Maybe instead of standard deaths they'll have periods of unconsciousness or something to emulate standard game death.
I happen to appreciate WoWs system. Some may think that its weak but who the hell wants to run up and die, make a 5 min run and die, make a 5 min run and die, make a 5 min run and die, untill you eventually get it done. To say it detracts from community is a little presumptious.
In the end it just depends on what your looking for. I can have just as much fun (and have) playing in WoWs system as I can in EQ1s system. Only in EQ1 it was quite a bit more annoying.
I just think that if you people want to talk about a strict death penalty as being good then you need to make a game with perma death and see how well it goes over. Several mmo's toyed with the idea and it nearly always (in my experience) gets shot down overwhelmingly by the community. If you think the chance to lose everything you have worked for is a great idea more power too you, your probably a power gamer and have time for that. Just remember that there a lot of people that would like to play but more casually and with out risk of losing everying in 5 minutes that took you 2 weeks of play to gain. Wich that 2 weeks equates to only about 10 hours tops. So then the casual gamer is faced with a daunting task, they don't have time to regain that lost gear in a few days of power gamming. It would take weeks.
It was said that the weak death penalties accomodate the most people and I agree with that. Thats not to say I wouldn't mind trying a game with perma-death either
Perma death can not work. If you think so, then you are most likely the person saying that just to spite the people who want full loot pvp etc. The most typical responce I see is "well if your so hardcore and want full loot, then make death permanent". This ideal is absurd. Any player no matter if you are a hardcore power gamer, pvp, or roleplayer, you will be very pissed off if you died because of disconnection or sudden power outage. How fair is it to spend monthes or years playing a character only to have it lost forever because of something you have zero control over?
If the game puts in mechanics to prevent death due to disconnect or power outage, then players will take advantage of it. Example, if im in a fight with either a player or mob, and it starts to go bad then all i do is pull the connection on my internet.
While im all for full loot, I understand that games such as EQ or WoW, do not lend themselves to that system because of the difficulty in obtaining competetive gear. However games such as UO made perfect use of this system. While there was good magic gear that people did not want to lose, it was not so bad that it would cause you to quit the game. (im speaking of pre UO-R, before item insuring and gear based game play)
I think games in general now put too much emphasis on gear rather than player skill. I not saying that games such as WoW or EQ do not take skill, im just saying that they are more dependent on gear than player skill.
-My 2 cents.
Having a harsh death penalty makes the game much more exciting. Whats the point of working hard to perfect your character if you can't actually have pvp. Also, whats the point of having great pvp if nothing happens when you die? I understand that having too harsh of a penalty can discourage players but it keeps people from rushing head first into every situation. Also having some kind of an alignment penalty would solve people completely ganking low levels. Cmon, after a certain level, its got to be more exciting being outside of a "safe zone".
I agree with Frank 100%!!
I have played UO, SWG, Lineage, DAOC, and WoW.
Recently I have quit WoW after making a level 60 priest just 2 months after the game came out I sold that account and then a few months later I started again when I hit level 56 on my druid I quit again... What was it I quit for this time besides boredom of trying to get that uber weapon that is actually useless once you get it.. well I quit to play ULTIMA ONLINE again!!
Its been 2 weeks now and I literally have NOT stopped playing, I play till 6am in the morning usually then go to bed for about 6 hours and Im back at it again! You see, WoW is too carebear for me.. I can't even talk crap to the horde if im alliance all I can do is /chicken... so frickin lame!
In UO there is always a risk, there is a thrill, a rush! OMG if you guys could have gotten on UO anytime before UO: AOS you'd have loved it! I now play a free shard that is in the UO:R period and its just as good as it used to be!
I cannot stand all of these games with NO death penalty.. it sickens me! You see in UO I dont have to do any work because I am actually skilled in PvP.. I let everyone else go hunt and get me those vanquishing weapons and I steal them with my disarm thief and give them to my warrior.. its just that awesome! I camp vendors with friends and kill people after they buy stuff off of them to get what I want! I make my living by killing people!! I dont have to go kill monsters all day or go into instances all day like on WoW.. Instead I kill people and I risk dying myself.
Yes I get mad when I die, I get furious if I had something valuable on me.. And yes when I played OSI (Pay to play UO) I must have said "I QUIT UO" like 50 times, but I never did.. I kept coming back for more, I had to get revenge.. I got it plenty of times! I can go on and on how thrilling a death penalty makes the game but thats not going to change anything because there will ALWAYS be more newbs in games that whine about losing their stuff to people like me and that is why they have made all new MMO's "carebear" games. Thanks for ruining MMO's as we know it newbs!
Ok, I have read a lot from this thread, but not all. I play EVE, where the penalty is severe, the gain for the killer is minimal and he usually gets a status hit for it. The tention is incredible. I have friends not being able to log on for 3 days after being killed, before they regain their nerves. So you learn and go on. Experience, real experience, of how to avoid most situations and having friends nearby is the key here. You can even set bounties on these bastards..heh. In fantasy, being the killer is harder to kontrol in a realistic way. I come to that at the end of this post.
I also play WOW-PVP and it is just not enough. Its like, oh well, up again. It feels like an empty threat . Often, in contempt, I sit down while I get killed by someone. In EVE you try to run, plea for your life, anything. How can you be proud of your accomplishments, being a big 60th lvl orcwarrior, if any 8 year old can manage this as well.
Of course, both options should exist, but I am pretty sure, that longterm commitment from players comes from real challenges, real cooperation, real immersion. My guess as to why EVE won over WOW is, that while EVE is from 2003 its still getting bigger and better, while WOW already is on the decline. WOW is a "kids game", having you on a tight leash, even controlling aspects, that should be free (soulbound items, sure it works from the technical side, but honestly...). Nothing wrong with kids game, mind you, but adults will turn to other things eventually.
Im not trying to sell EVE, as this game has its own bad sides and there is a reason I needed a break from it and tried WOW. Its so much more slowpaced then WOW for one thing. And the roleplaying part is just not there, sadly and I have played RPG for over 20 years...
Anyway, here is a suggestion for the fantasykills. You are not killing, but defeating another player. This presents some options. He's at your mercy - you could settle for a token or anything, or kill the other, take the stuff and get a statushit for being a killer or something. Being able to bounty people helps too, but only if the deathpenalty is severe. I am aware, that some people would love to be the nastiest bastard around and have the status to prove it. But what good is this, when you cant be around cities anymore, as the guards will come after you at once? You become an outlaw, just as in EVE, but you pay a real price for it. Sure, this is all depending on which kind of setting you got to begin with, but there should be a penalty for killing as well as a bonus.
Norden
So nice to see that so many people are for stricter death penalties. Remember when these games were a challenge? In WoW for example, it is simply inevitable to get to levle 60: anyone can do it, even solo! I remember in EQ when if you died a few times you could tread water exp. wise for days not gaining anything because of stupid mistakes.
I miss difficulty.
I'm for strict death penalties.
My first MMORPG was UO, infact I played it really as my first online game. Wow, what an experiance, some might say life changing. I'm not going to go on about it, but death penalties is needed.
The death penalty just makes everything so much more fun, whether people directly realise this or not. You would be scared to leave town incase you were attacked. Someone might argue as to why someone would enjoy this - well it's for the same reason people enjoy roller coasters, the fear factor.
Also it gives a greater sense of "owning" things for me. If you know an item could be stolen, then you will trasure it more, than something that is just always yours. People will always opt for the easy route and demand it, but they need to realise it's not the best thing for them.
Of course there is also the fact with strict penalties, you can steal things from people and so on. Which is really good fun if you want to. (There is always consequences though).
I played UO until trammel came around; which sucked the life out of the game- and I have NEVER played another MMORPG since. I looked at EverQuest as I look at softcore porn; not my bag- where's the action?
I'm somewhere in the middle.
I don't agree with many of the perma-death ideas that are constantly being tossed around by people who come off as complete quacks.
I also don't agree with the care-bears who feel you should take a slap on the wrist.
I feel full loot is a place to start, leaving room for one additional penaty- I wouldn't mind temporary stat loss, temporary- like not an hour; but not a few minutes... but I think XP loss is gay. Then again I think grinding for XP is gay. I'm all grown up now and really don't have time for that grinding crap again.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I agree with Frank Mignone 100%. MMO is for massive.. if you do not want to fight with others then MMO's are not for you. That is just MY opinion. However.. game companies now give you the option to play on NON-PVP servers etc.. and if you choose to get on a pvp or partial pvp server and you get killed.. do not call it being ganked or griefed.. you choose to be on the server then deal with it. I hear people complain that I am being griefed etc.. well you know what go play on a damn none pvp server... and if you get ganked alot.. then its time to make some friends and allies now isnt it.. its called socializing!
I love PvP.. its the only TRUE end game if you ask me... and its always fun and its always new.!
Blackcoat
MMO's don't have to involve such events as getting killed at all.
In most games, it would be a semi-requirement, but every now and then games are made in a setting that makes it differently. And a game could run on such premises as "everybody have always cooperated and never knew any different concept" and simply rule out PvP. It could even be done well, if cooperation was rewarding, exciting... That only rules out PvP death, though, not death.
There is no single true MMO concept for me. I have favoured concepts only.
Favoured: Roleplaying. Reason for using MMO: More flexible and dynamic response in dialogue, as it is actually made up by another human mind in response to your actions.
Favoured: Combat, open PvP. Reason for using MMO: More randomness, more strategies, possibility of betrayal.
Also, the presence of other real people is interesting in a game.
However, these are ideals, not true standards of existing games. The point is: MMO isn't this or that only.
The use of the word 'gay' though... Please don't.
It is
I am tempted to add points, but it isn't to the topic. I simply get frustrated with the use of certain words.
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)