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What is a Living Breathing World MMO? Any examples of one of these MMOs talked about here?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Living Breathing World MMO. I know this is figuratively talked about around here.
But what does that even mean in terms of MMOs?
Are there any examples of such a MMO being this "Living Breathing World" that people here been scratching and begging for?
I been thinking about this request, when it hit me. What the heck is a Living Breathing World MMO feature?
Seems like a heavy requested feature, but doesnt really seem to have ever been done before. So I been confused about where this request even started from.
School me on this you all.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
What game are you talking about?
EQ certainly wasn't "living and breathing" with slow static spawn, and camping.
I've only heard of Anet using that slogan for GW2. I've never really heard it before that. I've heard of people talk about persistence vs. permanence though.
Permanence would be a static world of course, where npcs, quests, and environment never change, etc.
Persistence would be an ever-changing environment though which includes mobs, npcs, etc.
I cringe to say it but swg was the last one I can think of that was " living and breathing" It's the last time I was in an mmo where people did things because they wanted to. They had house parties or went to explore a cave, or just hung out and talked in a mall.
I don't really consider a quest hub mmo living and breathing. It's just a game you play. SWG you could actually live in there to some extent. It's really hard to explain if you've never experienced it or are not looking for it. Eve is probably like that for the people playing it. There's no real content for them to follow. They sort of live in there and things happen because people do things.
Being a sandbox or having a lot of sandbox features probably has a lot to do with why they're so rare now and why so many of the older games had it and new ones don't.
"Living, Breathing World"
WoW comes to mind when I think living breathing world. I remember my first steps into Meridian 59, UO then DAoC vs EQ. Those games mentioned filled a partial void most gamers look for, for some time. Then came WoW which took all the best concepts of those games besides the player looting and housing and made something that felt great. I remember camping in a hollow log by the Ashenvale crossroads, first time I PvP'd in WoW which was awesome on Shadowmoon server. The world feels alive and with the new garrisons it feels even more alive, all the followers walking around with stories and what not. I know WoW is not what it use to be and never will be as we have played for over 10 years. When I play with new people to the game they comment on how the world feels so alive. I don't notice it as the novelty has woren (not sure on spelling and google was not sure). At the end of the day it still has the best game world it feels so living and breathing compared to most mmo's since.
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To me it's really simple. In a living world I can affect the course of the game's story in a way not planned for or anticipated by the devs (synonym although not completely identical to sandbox). So the politics in EVE pretty much qualifies in my mind as living universe. Can't think of many other current MMOs that are like that though. Wurm maybe? Definitely not GW2 (by my definition anyway) ArcheAge seems like it qualifies as well though.
A lot of MMOs in development are *promising* a living world, we'll see how many deliver.
Siphaed's post hits the mark in so many respects. He describes unique (one-off) events that occured in the world that had profound and lasting effects.
I would add that a "living breathing world" has something very few mmorpgs have, a dedicated team of intelligent and creative game masters. Game masters can spawn random events and encounters (a good example is Planeshift).
This makes the world "feel" that it does respond to the acts and impact of its players. If your mmorpg has game masters, you are very fortunate indeed.
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It mean the game broad (world) have it own cycle (of life) and not roll around player's action .
For example.
The cycle are 7 days "in game time" or farmer's farm
Day 1 he plan the seeds ,
at day 4 the seeds grow and rats start appears
at day 7 , if he manage to kill the rats , it time for him to harvest .
Base on the cycle there are many possible "future" depend on player's "chose"
Basically it kind of design where the game world roll around independent with players.
It difference with current the world roll around players (main character of the story line)
"living world" are kind of design where the game world still run even if player join it or not . While "hero design" game world "stop" when player don't play it anymore.
Ryzom was pretty living, where the animals would roam around, some alone some in herds, while predators would go around hunting the pray animals, and then wandering off.. made the world really seem alive, as opposed to the traditional static spawn mobs..
Some animals would come up to you, check you out, then wander away.. that was some amusing AI
So to me a living world is one where the design of the game makes it seem like things are happening regardless of the players, as opposed to a world where things are always pinned to one spot or following a set rail path over and over (the usual mmo spawns)
Ryzom and Wurm also have seasonal changes - Ryzom changes the trees and moves the mine-able deposits around, Wurm changes the trees, ground, and the weeds from which seeds can be gathered. I think season also affects the way gardens behave. Tale In The Desert doesn't have seasons, it has waves of invisible weather that affect where mushrooms would spawn and vegetable growing, especially the all-important ability to get an extra seed. I think time of day affected papyrus growing. Tale In The Desert also had pollution at some point, which was caused by players and faded over time if the cause was removed; pollution mainly interfered with flax growing, which is the main activity of low level players. Pollution wasn't well liked though, so it was either moderated or removed. Beyond that, Tale In The Desert is a resetting MMO where every time the server resets all players start from scratch, and work together to evolve the technology of "Egypt", including server-wide opportunities and goals that are triggered by the players' accomplishments. One of the most notable is the way at a certain point in the progression pyramid blocks will start appearing on the sand for players to excavate and transport to build the first pyramid. IIRC this was dependent on having unlocked the tech to make glass rods, used to sound the sand to find the buried blocks.
Personally I'm a lot more interested in worlds which respond to the individual player's accomplishments. Wizard 101 for example has blank walls where usable doors appear permanently when a player completes the quest to gain access to them. Other games have a type of monster which has a "plagued" appearance that changes permanently after a player completes the quest to apply medicine to the monsters. And some games have low-level NPCs that move or vanish when the player completes the quests given by that NPC in that location.
Agreed, Guild Wars 2 is the best example of it. Although WoW didn't do a bad job at it either with Cataclysm and the constantly changing political situation thanks to major NPCs dying or taking off, the phasing also helped there - as it at least made it feel like the world changed around you.
I haven't played it very far, but ESO's also done a good thing with the phasing as far as I've seen it.
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I dont think people really talk about it much on here it was something used as marketing by some of the more recent MMORPGs.. of course none of those ended up being a living breathing world hehe..
Can they exist.. yaeh sure why not but it depends what you mean by living and breathing i guess.. games like second life could be considered a living breathing world as everything is made by the players and changes all the time, new things added old things remvoed and so on..
In response to the OP I think that the phrase 'living, breathing world' is a bit of a misnomer. For me the fundamental quality of a living, breathing world is that it is populated and promotes the lost social aspects mmo's are capable of. Obviously some sandbox elements such as an ability to build, or some mechanics that facilitate group play would assist.
Too many games are designed around a strictly zoned levelling system which leaves entire portions of the map as ghost towns one month after release. This is exacerbated by all-pervasive fast-travel, group finders and dungeon finders which turn most mmo's into hub games with oddly vacant tranches of land surrounding said hub.
I find it odd that a developer would go to so much effort to build a world, and then go to so much effort to remove players from it.
Well actually Meridian59 and UO where my first but trust me I was completely unaware of it's terms MMORPG.
But..
Star Wars Galaxies was a MMORPG that I felt was the closest living breathing world experiance I have ever experiance in a MMORPG. Anything was possible it was going far beyond just being a game, whole community's where made and no not meant as today's community of raid/pvp guilds, but a true society was formed with so many different classes you could truly be unique. Shame many dislike being unique as that has made a hugh impact in the amount of choices we the players are given with today's very limited MMORPGames.
Wrong. What people are talking about is a persistent world that changes in line with player actions. Such sandbox elements as player built cities, fully player controlled economy, crafting systems that actually matter and are not just a second rate add-on etc. In short, all of the things that theme park MMO's do not have.
An example, at least part way, would be the original SWG which had all of the above and more besides.
What you are talking about is different from the world where changes have an effect. What you are talking about is a persistent world that gave you the feeling you were part of that world like Everquest and FFXI. What the OP is discussing is a changing world that changes with events. GW 2 comes closest I guess.
Sorry mate but what you are describing there is a series of carefully crafted and scripted events created by the devs, the end result of each known before the first blow is struck. These are not examples of a living world, just examples of dev created events.
A living world changes as the players do things within it as part of the everyday cycle of the game, not just when the devs decide that it will change.
So what's examples?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The "living, breathing world" never actually existed. People read about VRML, watched a couple of movies and maybe played Ultima Online and thought that a "living, breathing world" was going to be a natural result of everything that was happening in the 90s. It just didn't happen.
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+1 You nailed it.
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It's all about interconnectedness of the game's systems. To feel like you're just one part of a bigger mechanism. This is in stark contrast with the typical themepark MMO that is more focused on YOUR story, typically one revolving around you being "the hero." It's why quests don't fit too well into sandbox games. It's not about YOU, it's about the world and then it's up to you to figure out how you want to fit into that world. Basically it's trying to emulate real life, except with magic and monsters etc.
If you're asking if any game has ever perfectly emulated a living, breathing world, the answer is no. And nobody has ever expected a game like this to exist, at least not in the foreseeable future. As is the case with all of these discussions, it's a sliding scale between two extremes. A game can either be MORE or LESS like a living, breathing world.
EverQuest was designed as if it was a functioning real life fantasy city first. That includes such inconveniences as 15 minute boat rides, NPC factions fighting one another. Dungeons layered within dungeons. Things like, the rogue's trainer having an invisible pit infront of him that only rogues can cross, that would drop you into the sewers.
They build the world first. They didn't game-ify it.
It can also refer to worlds that get people to move around and live in them, like Star Wars Galaxies, where it simulated life on a planet, with player cities and harvesting, and player activities impacting the cities on the planet.
Or my favorite example, Asheron's Call. A giant seamless world, again built first, with monthly updates that, based on what the players did, would change the game world. Not pre scripted GW2 "stories". but actual chances for the players to make a choice, and if they failed, the world changed one way or another.