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Release 9 combat feedback
Aragon100
Member RarePosts: 2,686
Combos have arrived to SotA card combat system.
DarkStarr descibe it like this -
- Combos: The ability to execute combos by combining two glyphs is now functional along with 8 combos. Combos are created by dragging a glyph on top of another glyph which creates a new glyph in your toolbar. These include new icons that combine the source glyphs.
This combat system is still by far the worst combat mechanic I have played of any game, ever. It is not innovative, or fun, it is pure crap. I say this having been with the game right from R1 until now, and having played many other MMORPG's including UO and Tablua Rasa, as well as many single player games including the Ultima series. I am a huge Garriott fan and have no problem saying that this combat system is some of his absolute worst work.
It has been said many times already, and i'm sure it will be said again, but having random control over your skills makes no logical sense, is not intuitive at all, and is not at all a fun mechanic to play with.
Both R8 and R9 now I have had to walk my guild members through the process of setting up and using the decks, and answering the questions such as:
"why can't I use ranged/melee skills when I want to?"
"why can't I cast 'X' spell once i've learned it?"
"why can't I use when it's actually appropriate?"
"why is coming up when I cant even use it in these circumstances?"
and so on and so on...
There is absolutely nothing good about a combat system that takes away control from the player. There is nothing intuitive about this system, there is nothing logical about this system, and there is nothing that makes this system any more fun than a traditional combat system.
I constantly see people saying they don't want a static hot-bar system because its... boring, or old, or takes no skill, or whatever, and I agree with that in general. Yet there is not one good argument that makes this randomized card system better than a traditional one. If you are going to innovate, at least make a system that is slightly better than the norm!
As of right now, though my guild has a number of high level pledges and has even purchased a metropolis, we will not be participating very often in combat if this is the broken system we have to deal with.
Not a single person in my guild has yet found the randomized card combat system to be fun.
- It removes your control from your own learned skills and abilities.
- It puts your focus and attention squarely on your hot-bar for the duration of the fight, rather than the actual fight itself.
- It is not intuitive or logical or at all approaching any sort of realistic combat simulation.
That said, I don't like to complain without offering solutions, and I don't like to be accused of complaining without having a solution.
So my solution, as well as a more in-depth analysis of everything I think is wrong with this system and why, can be found at https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...y-card-combat-feedback-and-suggestions.13383/
It is my feedback from R8, and having tested through R8 and now R9, my criticisms of the combat system and my suggestions for improving it remain exactly the same. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/r9-overall-feedback.14183/
Random card combat have become even more complex. With combos (combine skills/spells) you need even more focus on your combat hotbar where skills/spells randomly pop up. This will successfully remove most focus of the battle field and what your opponent 's are doing.
KingRoland had this to say -
[quote] i have watched a stream yesterday and chated with the streamer.
i asked him to show melee combos by combining 2 melee attack glyphes.but what we find out....
-its horrible to be a melee fighter in a world of mages and fireballs (there is no Jump/charge)
-non stop removing cards with right mouse click to get 2 meelee cards , at the same time ,to make a melee combo is horrible. when you stand right infront of your enemy you should be able to attack him instead of removing cards
-we got the idea to make a 7 hand deck, for a pure melee fighter
so we can have 6 melee attack glyphes fixed, to be able to combine them to 3 different combos when we need them, and the last slot should rotate heal and stun immunity
-but it wasnt possible !!!!! you cant combine fixed melee glyphes !!!!!! just the random selected appearing gyphes can be combined
To me it look more and more obvious that SotA developers need to scratch the random card combat system since beta player's simply don't like it. A future more successful SotA game don't include this random card combat experiment.
Comments
yep.. combat system in shroud will make the game fail bigtime together with plots selling for real money..
He should have made it very simple and just remake an uo in 3d with better grafhics..
Agree. UO combat system was good and i see no reason to reinvent the wheel. Having access to all skills/spells all time is fundamental for any combat system.
A UO game with better graphics would have become way more successful.
I didn't even bother with R9 due to the combat system.
Yes, I admit I am one of those who complain about gazilion hotbars, and there is nothing wrong in trying something else, but if it is no good, perhaps stick to systems that do work - say Skyrim/TESO/WS as a modern example, not putting any weight into them if being good or bad.
--------------------------------------------
Youtube newb:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC96N3cxBuqKTPV2BQNlzGUw
I am still not completely sold on the combat system either. But, I think it can be fun. I had fun with it and understood what it was trying to achieve. The Focus skills and combos adds another layer of interesting complexity to the deck building strategy. I'm definitely not as skilled as some of the players I saw in combat. Some of those guys really put some thought into their deck builds and it was obvious with how they were attacking and what they were attacking with that they truly understood the system and were in complete control.
How could that be when the deck system deals skills (glyphs) out randomly? It's all about understanding how to balance random deals against noble (locked) skills, Focus skills, and combos. The guys that understood this were absolutely killing everyone.
And this is just the basic skeleton of combat, as the entire system isn't in place yet, especially not all of the skills and combos.
But if you still hate the whole random dealing thing, they let you use a fully locked hotbar, so you can just assign whatever skills you want, so you can use them whenever you want. Just like every other MMO. So I'm not sure why people aren't using that if they hate the new system. I know I played using it for a while but was enticed into trying the new system (and found it damn fun).
It's been said the focus hit / penalty and cooldowns for using a fully locked hotbar are only temporary in these pre-Alpha releases and will be removed entirely or greatly reduced. Most likely the Focus hit will be gone, but cooldowns will be present, just like every other generic MMO that has static hotbars.
So there you have it, if you want to try the new system, go for it. And if you hate it, the fully locked hotbar option is there too. Best of both worlds, I guess.
Using a locked hotbar will be a disadvantage (nerfing yourself) since using random skills/spell combos will be more powerful and use less focus.
Why even have random combos if they don't boost anything?
Skill and spell combos will force players to look even more on their hotbar and miss out what is going on in the battlefield. It seems developers don't desire a PvP game that promote response depending on what is going on in the battlefield but instead promote player response cause the hotbar your watching gave you a combo,that is not a good combat system.
UO gave players all desirable skills available on their keyboard accessable all the time and you know what, players had their focus on the opponent and the battle going on and werent looking at their hotbar that produced random skills/spells. UO had superb combat flow which is something SotA definetly never will have.
It's not that simple. First, most of the combos are underwhelming, with the one exception of the Fire Arrow/Death Ray combo. Since they nerfed Death Ray for being too powerful in this release, that's probably to be expected.
I tried 6 different combo deck builds and none of them (except that overpowered Fire/Death) felt appreciably more powerful than a mage 100% locked build.
The key behind a locked build is all the extra points you reclaim by not buying multiple copies of the same skill (to get it to come up in the deck more often) and not spending points on the skills to improve hand size, increase draw rate and slow discard rate. Instead, you can pile points into passives.
For example, I was able to add passives to mostly offset the increased focus costs (+50% to 150% for locked -25% for the locked glyph passive and -10% all glyph passives equals 101.25% focus cost) AND add 45% stun/knockdown/root resistance.
On top of that, you don't need to worry about slugs with a locked build. There are situations where random is stronger, but there's also situations where locked is stronger (particularly for melee).
Stop trolling. One you havent played Ulitma Online, if you think houses being sold for money is a thing that makes games fail. I just got done playing that, and houses still sell for money. To get a castle in that game you would have to spend 1600 plus, back when it was newer, the prices got up there into 10000+.
The only thing that is different, instead of that money going into the guys pocket who did nothing, but wake up early and get to the plot faster, the people making the game get the money.
As for the combat system, saying a broad statement like that for a game that is pre alpha is terrible. The combat when it comes out will be nothing like it is now.
Not to mention the fact, that a house in no way stops you from playing the game. Not to mention just like uo you can get a house with out buying one. Not to mention........... Stop making up stories.
Game will be out in 6 months and it might change a bit like you claim but if they decide to keep the random card combat it will be close to the combat system we see today. Randomness that is a foundation in this combat system will be there and also the never ending watch of your hotbar. Developers even claimed they would scrap the card combat system all together if it were not likable but that was nothing but empty words from beginning.
Here is feedback from Kal_Alyenare -
[quote] I've been playing combat games, MMOs in particular since Median59. I've also designed a number of user interfaces, including one what was fairly popular in the BBS days when I wrote Trade Wars 2002.
That being said, the R9, "Combat as a Deck of cards" design has to be the worst thing I've encountered in FRPG game to date. Attempting to have a plate wearer fight some skeletons was amazingly frustrating, non intuitive and worst of all, a huge disconnect in the immersion of the game world.
I can certainly appreciate that they're trying to do something different and I applaud that, but this deck concept ruins the immersion in a fight and takes the skill out of the hands of the player an leaves it to the whims of the Random Number Generator.
If they are dead set on this MTG style Deck of Cards interface, then I am damned sorry I pledged at Knight level for this game. What a waste. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/who-hates-the-combat-system.14194/page-6
Seems next release will be a non-combat release -
KingRoland - [quote] combat system 70 percent done !!! next release will be a non combat release !!
im dissapointed , poletarium wasted half of there time, to make ice elements and stuff which are not necessary , or have something to do with combat in release 9 and tell , that the combat system is 70 percent done.
no fresh ideas ? read the forums !!!
i cant beleave they not take there time to develop an awesome combat system over 5-6 releases long .
when they not have the time to develop new mechanics properly and are forced to rush them , why not implementing the old ones like the ultima online spellbook ?? [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/melee-combat-system-is-the-deck-system-just-not-work-to-make-a-melee-fighter-fun.14066/
Oh, I thought people here were complaining about what a huge disadvantage the random skills were...
I think you have to read up a bit better............
More and more people get frustrated over this random card combat system. How many pledgers have as me left this game is anybodies guess but if they keep this random card game as combat system this game will become a lot more unsuccessful then it could have been. SotA developers even said they would ditch this random card combat system if players didn't like it but still no word on that promise.
Is it economy or some stupid pride that prevent developers from creating a PvP game that is fun and also demand some player skills?
Here are some spot on feedback from Kal_Alyenare -
[quote]
I tried it again this evening as the server was open for Dev+ I made sure there were no slugs in my base deck, but I still have to contend with 5 of them due to my plate armor. That means a full deck still gives me, a melee character in plate, a 20% change for a slug.
In actual play that would *often* mean a hotkey bar full of nothing but slugs. I lock a healing potion in the first slot, have to, to even have a chance to survive and a focus potion in the last slot because focus is vanishing at an alarming rate, likely because I'm wasting it on skills that were dealt that I'd rather NOT use but when that's my only choice it's better to trigger *anything* positive instead of just discarding it.
I still don't like this interface for combat.
Even if I got all of the cards I wanted, I'm looking away from the nice 3D graphics of what's going on to concentrate on the comparatively dull things happening on the hotkey bar. I'm not paying any attention to where the other mobs might be or what danger I may be getting into. This is just in single player mode, imagine being in a party, who's going to be able to keep up on how your party-mates are doing? "Sorry, I can't help you at the moment, I'm busy discarding slugs...."
It is just a bad design of an interface system. Sometimes you have to abandon initial programming ideas if they are too big of a step backwards. That is exactly what this deck play interface system is. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/who-hates-the-combat-system.14194/page-8
Skwal say -
[quote] As much as I actually like the deck system, this is so true. My attention is focused at the bottom of my screen. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/who-hates-the-combat-system.14194/page-8
Shadoweawer say -
[quote]
I did not play R8 so I can not compare. However I have to say my first annoyance is the extremely limited time I have had to try to get used to this new system. I really wish single player was available between releases so I could absorb and get used to these changes. That being said, I obviously far from mastered the new combat system and did not enjoy the limited time I had playing with it. As others have said It seemed ranged skills worked quite well with the cards but any kind of melee was random and for the most part unusable. I am in Japan so I never PVP'd with anyone as the areas were empty when I was there probably due to time zones but I did fight my share of monsters.
I found the cards so clumsy. You have to chase your opponent, your sword randomly swings when in range, all the while trying to keep an eye on him with your mouse and then also keeping an eye on what cards come up and where at the bottom of the screen to then hot key into.
I found it all very disenchanting and not fun. I much prefer controlling my sword swings etc with the mouse, timing things myself. I was under the impression that basic combat would be manual and that special focus attacks would be then based on the cards. I do not see why things could not work that way. I really disliked how offensive and defensive spells/potions were mixed and would show up randomly. Heal is #1 then #5 then #3. Would it be possible to have the ability to hotkey potions or bandages separately?
I found switching weapons during combat cumbersome. Perhaps there is an easier way than drag and drop that I am not aware of.
To summarize. I am not sure what is alpha and what is my lack of understanding. I would really like more in game time (OFFLINE?) to try to sort things out. I do not hate the idea of having cards but hate the idea of everything being SO random. I really felt like my input was almost useless. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/who-hates-the-combat-system.14194/page-8
Only one's that seem to like this random card combat system are the diehard fanbois with their pink coloured glasses.
i think the card-system sounds interesting, just sounds like it's been poorly implemented.
if pure random chance is determining your attack and you cannot build decks to take into combat it seems like it's abandoned one of the primary aspects of TCG's that's fun and rewarding.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
The problem isn't the implementation, it is the combat system that is the problem. With the implemented combos they will never avoid randomness in cards and they will never get away from the never ending staring at a hotbar and miss what is actually going on in the battlefield.
Looking at cards remove immersion and also prevent a view of the battle going on. You have to remember you just don't have to watch what cards pop up on the hotbar you also need to remove unwanted cards manually.
If you need a heal and the game prevent you from healing yourself cause the cards available on the hotbar dont show a heal option then it is a failure.
If you want to use a melee skill and there is no melee skill available then it is a failed combat system.
Learned skills or spells should be on the aassigned buttons on the keyboard and available when you want to use them.
This combat system experiment is created by newbie developers and it becomes more and more obvious they miss a important UO developer in their team, Raph Koster.
If they want to implement a proper deck combat system they should take a long, hard look at the system used by the now cancelled Chronicles of Spellborn. Now THAT was proper implemented combat. Still glad I back Garriotts project on Kickstarter but not overtly excited about this.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Afaik, it differed from their system by not being random in anyway. It added a strategic element to the combat by placing your spells/skills to give the best synergy or flexibilty. But then TCoS combat system was one of the first, maybe the first, successfully implemented dynamic combat system in an mmo, and they had a challenging AI. All things SotA will not have.
Are you suggesting SotA should start all over again from the start?
It takes one to know one.
Personally, and that is just my own view from what i played so far, I think the whole game is a disaster. Unity engine, mini zones, crappy animations, bad lighting, ugly shaders, weird game play and combat. I just can't seem to enjoy it at all.
----
I regret backing it on Kickstarter. I really do.
Your definetly not the only one and the real important question for developers is - how many pledgers do they still have left after this combat fiasco?
Keeping pledgers is important.
I dont think they have many left and that is also what you can read on SotA forums, many have a hard time finding anyone else when they're in the game.
Fanbois with pink coloured glasses also have a huge responsibility why developers continue with this fiasco of combat system.
@Astraeis,
I guess it is more a 'power of hindsight'' thing, it is not realistic to expect them to change the entire combat system this far down the line but it would have been more appropriate imo, more exciting too. And you are right, the combat was not random but you did 'build' your deck. For a more random approach they could have taken a look at Baten Kaitos, an older rpg for the gamecube. It used a card based battle system where some cards would even evolve over time, milk going sour for instance.
it is a fine line between flexible and random and I think both TCOS and Baten Kaitos had better combat systems then Shroud of the Avatar. Can it be saved? I don't know. I do know that so far it is all a bit frustrating.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Yea, and thats gonna lead to NO EPISODE 2. I had sent private messages to the DEVs. months ago, pleading with them to scrap this system. These people don't realize that outside of their niche community, there is no support for this type of combat system.
I mean, just look at all the discussion about the combat system, its a disaster. And why did they have to reinvent combat on a 4 mil budget ? Makes no sense. That should never have been the focus of this project., now its interfering with the rest of the development and content.
I am an Avid Backer of Shroud of the Avatar. to address how many backers left NONE!
There are over 34,000 backers at this moment and more coming in every day.
We understand that this is still Pre-Alpha.. It is still under development. That means NOTHING is Set in Stone.
Any of the General Public are Welcome to view the videos that we have posted and do their own fact finding.
As I read some of these comments, I shudder to think what their experience with RPGS have done to them.
i will point out Again , the game is STILL under development..It gets better every time they allow us to participate in the testing
of this Game.
I agree with the combat system and IMO there is a fix for the Plots. You can still use that system and only sell virtual plots but still have some sort of instanced plots for housing for other players. Project Gorgon is doing that and I like it.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Your wrong. I pledged and i left, and i am not the only one.
Many that wanted the next Richard Garriott "UO" also left since the combat system is very bad.
Wether it is pre-alpha or not can be discussed. There isn't that long until game is released.
This sums up SotA combat system well -
Feedback from Jackrabbit -
[quote] What part of :
a) random availability of skills not based on any in game reason other than just to make it 'interesting'
b) random placement of said skill cards in the skill bar like whack a mole
c) the combination of these two requiring the user to constantly stare at the skill bar during all combat
do you not understand is:
a) not skillful based at all, its all about luck of the draw and twitch clicking
b) not interesting to a large quantity of players who enjoy being 'skillful' at what they do
c) will be a cumbersome and disappointing system for some people to enjoy (as evidenced already)
Are you really going to feel good when you slay that leet dragon or other player when:
a) it wasn't your skill as a player that carried the battle, it was luck of the draw and fast clicking
b) you can't replicate it with any consistency on your part, because of the random factor
c) no one respects what you did because anyone could get 'lucky' like you did
Actually, this system is not very challenging at all to players who are used to actually being 'good' at something. Just watch the pretty cards (like you could watch anything else) and click the pretty colors
Deck building before a battle hardly quantifies as skillful, and the system they have planned so far, doesn't either. [/quote]
https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/balanacing-an-un-balanced-combat-system.14361/#post-240066
I haven't played the game to be honest but I wouldn't mind chiming in a little. I like the idea of a little randomness in combat. Makes it interesting. Only issue I really have is that I will have to look at my hotbar all the time. I like games where I don't have to look at my bar and I can look at what is happening around me and position myself accordingly.
I was kind of hoping that r9 would show a more dynamic system e.g. Move around a bit and you'll be hit a bit less. But how can I move around my enemy when I need to look at my hotbar all the time? Not asking for a pure action combat game, Gw2 did a hybrid tab target game and so did DDO (And I rather enjoy DDO's combat) so I was kind of hoping for that.
They will probably have to make some changes to the UI in order to allow for less looking on the hot bar and more looking at what your character is doing. Maybe allowing for the icons to appear above your character or something? (don't take that suggestion too seriously) but I will honestly not appreciate looking at my hotbar all the time in combat.
Random elements could be fine though. I look forward to seeing how they tweak it. I can see some interesting potential in the system still. I mean people play Hearthstone and Poker. Those games require luck but also skill. They would have to change the way pvp is done in tournaments to make it more fair though. So every team fights each other team once and the one with the most amount of wins takes the trophy. Rather than a traditional tournament system. I'm not sure if they have done that already as I haven't really looked at the PVP stuff and just at the PVE interaction.
And pardon if I said anything a bit off, I haven't been keeping up 100% with the game.