Originally posted by NitthTruth is "P2W" (although this isn't) sells.
So wait, P2W is inevitable, yet this isn't pay to win. That is what you are saying?
Huh?
Why isn't this pay to win? It seems like honestly the people who are saying it is are winning by a landslide right now.
This isn't pay to win because its falls into the same category as convenience items.
Pay to win is where you can directly pay for "power" and/or isn't available by normal game mechanisms.
People will buy these boxes. For every person that says they despise pay to win there is 5 more that will shut their trap and spend. Why do you think gold sellers are still in business if everyone despises them? Because there is demand.
That's why every business tries to push the tolerance of whats "pay to win". because its good for business.
It really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Originally posted by GeezerGamerIt really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Exactly.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
Originally posted by Laughing-man Originally posted by GeezerGamerIt really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Exactly.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
And yet its not as bad as the guys that buy $1000 swords that own everything in eastern games.
If i had my way there would be a flat sub fee or box price and that would be that, But thats not the age we live in anymore.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by GeezerGamerIt really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Exactly.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
And yet its not as bad as the guys that buy $1000 swords that own everything in eastern games.
If i had my way there would be a flat sub fee or box price and that would be that, But thats not the age we live in anymore.
comparing something bad with something worse is not an indication that something is in any way good. Personally i can't help but think that Trion has been taken over by the beancounters, when Rift first launched things looked pretty good, and Trion were looking like 'one of the good guys' in MMO gaming, but now, its like a Jekyl and hyde. In some ways it reminds me of SW;TOR, which also has the F2P/P2P/Cash shop, only instead of the P2P players getting full access, they have a 'less nerfed' experience than the F2P player, unless they too buy certain items from the cash shop, the difference between Archeage and SW;TOR though, is that rather than being predominantly cosmetic items on sale, Trion are selling 'gambling boxes' that 'may' contain needed materials for high end crafting, at least in SW;TOR getting the high end crafting materials was an 'in game currency' and 'time' sink as you had to send your companions off to get them.. which is why i think that Trion is now in the hands of the beancounters rather than people who you know, actually care about the game and the players
Originally posted by GeezerGamerIt really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Exactly.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
And yet its not as bad as the guys that buy $1000 swords that own everything in eastern games.
If i had my way there would be a flat sub fee or box price and that would be that, But thats not the age we live in anymore.
As a one time purchase? It's actually not any better. Sure the publishers would love a 1K loot drop from the player base. But they'd also love it if you subbed and then spent another 30-100/mo in the cash shop. At the end of a year or maybe 2, what's the difference? The publisher has your 1000 bucks and the player has their 1000 worth of"WIN"
The hype around AA is totally insane. I decided to finally peak into these forums to see if it truely is the second coming of MMO's - when I read a thread like this,it just confirms all my suspicions. All hype, no deliver. Cash shops? Nope, you can have it. Even though the sandbox and open world pvp elements initially intriqued me, The second I see cash shops and confirmed P2W, the game becomes instant sewer garbage.
Good luck and have fun being the elite garbage man in this dumpster shop game.
I enjoy undercutting people in the market place - it's the only PvP a crafter gets.
Trion's just copying Anet's "Nerf the loot, oh, and buy gold from our cash shop!".
Now, if Trion, Anet & EA were to merge... We could have the evilest, greediest mega corp. even! /darkside pts +10,000!
I can't agree with Anet. I didn't buy gems a single time, yet i have 4 characters at max level fully equipped with exotics with one set of ascended jewellery. I still have shitload of boosters / mystic forge stones / other cash shop crap that came out for free from dailies / boxes / whatever. Actually it is even opposite, since I have already converted like 200 gold into gems so I could get character tabs and bank tabs for free. All that playing the game casually like 2-3 hours a day for approximately 4 months. That includes playing at the release, one year after release and this summer for like 2 months. Only lazy people that wants everything handed them on a silver platter whine about Anet's way of doing things, while in reality they have one of the most ethical f2p (or rather b2p) models out there when it comes to mmo's.
This game is now officially a pile of crap. Thanks Trion, job well done.
Was pretty obvious where this was going after i saw the LP system and the excuses of the fan base that it is to "balance the economy".
----
the only thing this LP system balances is the check book of Trion.
The LP system is nice to balance the economy and make everthing that takes LP to produce sell in AH.
I really like it and i wich more games come with equal systems, the big question is if it is well implemented or not, the implementation can be discuss, alot of details can be balance, but the base propose is nice.
Nah, im not even remotely a fanboy of AA. 've completely forgot about it until i recieved a beta invitation last month (which i've missed).
At the other hand, im sick of people crying about stuff they can't do anything about. You knew the game will be F2P, what did you expect? They will sell costumes and mounts only in the shop? Ofc they said the shop won't be P2W and in a sense it truly isn't.
And honestly, is the tax certificate such a problem? When anyone can get patron, even for ingame cash, and the ability to pay tax with it?
I can't say anything about the labor pots, as i don't know how much use i will have it playing casually.
Though i should be used to all the qq by now.
-
And i never said anywhere that AA will takes any subscriber from wow.
The debate was about wow free trial. And how they timed it on AA release.
Perhaps you should not talk about logic and reason, if you can't understand simple things.
---
Edit.
If you say Trion is a horrible company, you obviously haven't played any games handled by Nexon and Gameforge just to mention two.
There is 2 option for anyone being upset about what's in the shop.
A: Don't play the game.
B: Deal with it.
Arguing about it, will fix nothing.
But spending money in the cash shop and rewarding Trion for pulling this crap is going to? Change nothing.
I fixed it for you. If tomorrow half of the players wouldn't login in order to protest against recent changes. Then something might would happen. But that's what won't happen, because most of the players will just accept it.
You can't get a community to stand up for their beliefs. If people who really desperate to see changes, would unite, and petition them then that would slightly increase the chance. The other way around is publicity. But most likely you won't see anything like that in the near future. Forum posts are forum posts, it might represent the opinion of the majority, yet still being heard from that few whos posting.
This game is now officially a pile of crap. Thanks Trion, job well done.
Was pretty obvious where this was going after i saw the LP system and the excuses of the fan base that it is to "balance the economy".
----
the only thing this LP system balances is the check book of Trion.
The LP system is nice to balance the economy and make everthing that takes LP to produce sell in AH.
I really like it and i wich more games come with equal systems, the big question is if it is well implemented or not, the implementation can be discuss, alot of details can be balance, but the base propose is nice.
Man. After the LP pot reduction yesterday, you still that naive and still think the Labor Point system is there to Balance the economy? Really??
And this is not some new invention! Just replace Labor Points with Energy, Crystals, etc, etc and voila! Exactly the same system as you see in all those so called F2P Facebook and mobile games these days.
EA already got slapped by the EU Commision not too long ago for their F2P practices. Gonna be funny to see what's gonna happen when ArgeAge releases here in Europe and TRION advertising it as F2P lol.
I am not surprised at all and i have said it soo many times, sadly this is only the beginning. It will be a full blown p2w game if Trion doesnt make as much money as planned for mid to long term (1y+). When you promise that you wont put anything in your cash shop that is even remotely close to pay to win and you do this even before release, you best believe that they do want and will milk you guys as much as possible.
People should undestand one thing: ¨MMOs are not free¨, ¨Games are not free¨. Companies and Devs create games to EARN money, thats how the MMO world Works and F2P games are the best way to do that, where the guy who spend more money will have more things and faster that you.
I think Valve is making a decent amount of money with DOTA2, without selling anything that has any effect on the gameplay.
This out of the first 2 pages is about the only thing that makes sense. There are a lot of games that make money with out adding stuff like that.
At least they arent as greedy as shrouds of avatar, and will sell you a house for 500 dollars- 27000 dollars lol.
As for no one buying gambling boxes hahah. Just look at SWTOR, Uncharted waters online, and there are more I am sure. In SWTOR, when a new box comes out there will be people that dump 100s to get the thing they want. When i played Uncharted waters, there was a guy i played with who spent over 5 grand, to get a boat he wanted. I dont agree with any of it, and quit both games. Must of been a sign that my download stopped, and restarted and i didnt redownload it lol.
Gamble boxes for cash, are worse than real life casnios
This game is now officially a pile of crap. Thanks Trion, job well done.
Was pretty obvious where this was going after i saw the LP system and the excuses of the fan base that it is to "balance the economy".
----
the only thing this LP system balances is the check book of Trion.
The LP system is nice to balance the economy and make everthing that takes LP to produce sell in AH.
I really like it and i wich more games come with equal systems, the big question is if it is well implemented or not, the implementation can be discuss, alot of details can be balance, but the base propose is nice.
Man. After the LP pot reduction yesterday, you still that naive and still think the Labor Point system is there to Balance the economy? Really??
Im saying that i like the LP system in-game, didnt mentioned the business model around it, i even left open if it is well implementd or not. And yes, it balance the economy whatever was the inicial real reason of implementation.
And this is not some new invention! Just replace Labor Points with Energy, Crystals, etc, etc and voila! Exactly the same system as you see in all those so called F2P Facebook and mobile games these days.
I dont play that games so i dont comment. LP is a chalenge in-game where we need to learn to use it wise to reach some objectives. Again, im only talking about pure gameplay and not the business model. Buy and sell in AH is a huge part of the game to those who want to maximize the LP consume.
I dont like CS, for me it shouldnt exist, only care about what i can do with 13 euros per month. I did that playing in RU with half of the current LP regen and i was happy.
I dont play that games so i dont comment. LP is a chalenge in-game where we need to learn to use it wise to reach some objectives. Again, im only talking about pure gameplay and not the business model. Buy and sell in AH is a huge part of the game to those who want to maximize the LP consume.
I dont like CS, for me it shouldnt exist, only care about what i can do with 13 euros per month. I did that playing in RU with half of the current LP regen and i was happy.
The LP system is not a Challenge. It's an artificial Energy gauge system to frustrate dedicated (addicted) players and make them buy LP pots in the store to continue.
It has nothing to do realism. It has nothing to do with balancing crafting, harvesting and selling nor protecting the ingame economy.
As people with big wallets keep on buying LP pots over multiple Patron status accounts and characters, race to the top, flood and corner the entire market in no time when the game releases. They can exhaust over 8000 LP per character per day!
Everyone else will be out of the Picture and won't stand a chance against these practices.
And this my friend. Is the text book example of Pay 2 Win.
It doesn't have to be endgame gear in the store. That is a very narrowminded way of thinking (by many People here on these forums) that that only is Pay 2 Win. There are many ways (much better disguisable ways) of putting P2W items in the Cash Shop.
Putting gambling boxes in the store, that have a chance to drop ultra rare high end crafting materials. Is just another of many examples.
LP balances nothing. It doesn't apply to anyone trading in RMT Cash Shop goods. So, the economy is totally out of balance in favor or those who spend real money. So how does LP balance anything if it only limits certain players and doesn't apply to everyone across the board?
People should undestand one thing: ¨MMOs are not free¨, ¨Games are not free¨. Companies and Devs create games to EARN money, thats how the MMO world Works and F2P games are the best way to do that, where the guy who spend more money will have more things and faster that you.
The need for a company to earn money does not excuse all methods of attempting to earn money. It's not hard to get a sense of what the consumers in this market feel are acceptable ways to get revenue. For me, Trion fucked up with the labor point pots. You recognize that people want more LP and your solution is to sell it to them for cash rather than increasing the regen rate? No, get fucked.
Comments
It really doesn't matter how you decide to define "Pay to Win" . What matters is that this will be a game where those who spend the most money each month will be the ones with the most power. Call that convenience if you want to, it won't change the reality that they bought their way there.
Exactly.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
You can pretty up the term however you like, the simple fact of the mater is you gain in game advantage with real money.
It even has gambling essentially with the treasure boxes, that's pretty sketchy right there too, gambling innately in a game like that seems like a major red flag.
And yet its not as bad as the guys that buy $1000 swords that own everything in eastern games.
If i had my way there would be a flat sub fee or box price and that would be that, But thats not the age we live in anymore.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
comparing something bad with something worse is not an indication that something is in any way good. Personally i can't help but think that Trion has been taken over by the beancounters, when Rift first launched things looked pretty good, and Trion were looking like 'one of the good guys' in MMO gaming, but now, its like a Jekyl and hyde. In some ways it reminds me of SW;TOR, which also has the F2P/P2P/Cash shop, only instead of the P2P players getting full access, they have a 'less nerfed' experience than the F2P player, unless they too buy certain items from the cash shop, the difference between Archeage and SW;TOR though, is that rather than being predominantly cosmetic items on sale, Trion are selling 'gambling boxes' that 'may' contain needed materials for high end crafting, at least in SW;TOR getting the high end crafting materials was an 'in game currency' and 'time' sink as you had to send your companions off to get them.. which is why i think that Trion is now in the hands of the beancounters rather than people who you know, actually care about the game and the players
As a one time purchase? It's actually not any better. Sure the publishers would love a 1K loot drop from the player base. But they'd also love it if you subbed and then spent another 30-100/mo in the cash shop. At the end of a year or maybe 2, what's the difference? The publisher has your 1000 bucks and the player has their 1000 worth of"WIN"
The hype around AA is totally insane. I decided to finally peak into these forums to see if it truely is the second coming of MMO's - when I read a thread like this,it just confirms all my suspicions. All hype, no deliver. Cash shops? Nope, you can have it. Even though the sandbox and open world pvp elements initially intriqued me, The second I see cash shops and confirmed P2W, the game becomes instant sewer garbage.
Good luck and have fun being the elite garbage man in this dumpster shop game.
I enjoy undercutting people in the market place - it's the only PvP a crafter gets.
You forget the worst of all. PWE! Add those to the list and Your darkside Points will jump another +10000!
In my humble oppinion they are paying more to play less.
were is the fun in that?
I can't agree with Anet. I didn't buy gems a single time, yet i have 4 characters at max level fully equipped with exotics with one set of ascended jewellery. I still have shitload of boosters / mystic forge stones / other cash shop crap that came out for free from dailies / boxes / whatever. Actually it is even opposite, since I have already converted like 200 gold into gems so I could get character tabs and bank tabs for free. All that playing the game casually like 2-3 hours a day for approximately 4 months. That includes playing at the release, one year after release and this summer for like 2 months. Only lazy people that wants everything handed them on a silver platter whine about Anet's way of doing things, while in reality they have one of the most ethical f2p (or rather b2p) models out there when it comes to mmo's.
With the crap drop rate these boxes have you'll be spending tons of money on it (formatting is not amazing so better check the link)
http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?36190-Initial-estimated-cost-to-quot-P2W-quot-on-AA...-1-346-765
GL with your supposed p2w item...
Tomorrow somebody will make a p2w thread about exclusive hairstyles i'm sure.
It seems that some of their board members likes to gamble but the sad thing is that they lost what they had.
And they had a good reputation in the past.
Snailgame > trion .
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Gotto love that CD reduction on LP pots!
This game is now officially a pile of crap. Thanks Trion, job well done.
Was pretty obvious where this was going after i saw the LP system and the excuses of the fan base that it is to "balance the economy".
----
the only thing this LP system balances is the check book of Trion.
The LP system is nice to balance the economy and make everthing that takes LP to produce sell in AH.
I really like it and i wich more games come with equal systems, the big question is if it is well implemented or not, the implementation can be discuss, alot of details can be balance, but the base propose is nice.
I fixed it for you. If tomorrow half of the players wouldn't login in order to protest against recent changes. Then something might would happen. But that's what won't happen, because most of the players will just accept it.
You can't get a community to stand up for their beliefs. If people who really desperate to see changes, would unite, and petition them then that would slightly increase the chance. The other way around is publicity. But most likely you won't see anything like that in the near future. Forum posts are forum posts, it might represent the opinion of the majority, yet still being heard from that few whos posting.
No, it was already p2w.
Man. After the LP pot reduction yesterday, you still that naive and still think the Labor Point system is there to Balance the economy? Really??
And this is not some new invention! Just replace Labor Points with Energy, Crystals, etc, etc and voila! Exactly the same system as you see in all those so called F2P Facebook and mobile games these days.
EA already got slapped by the EU Commision not too long ago for their F2P practices. Gonna be funny to see what's gonna happen when ArgeAge releases here in Europe and TRION advertising it as F2P lol.
This out of the first 2 pages is about the only thing that makes sense. There are a lot of games that make money with out adding stuff like that.
At least they arent as greedy as shrouds of avatar, and will sell you a house for 500 dollars- 27000 dollars lol.
As for no one buying gambling boxes hahah. Just look at SWTOR, Uncharted waters online, and there are more I am sure. In SWTOR, when a new box comes out there will be people that dump 100s to get the thing they want. When i played Uncharted waters, there was a guy i played with who spent over 5 grand, to get a boat he wanted. I dont agree with any of it, and quit both games. Must of been a sign that my download stopped, and restarted and i didnt redownload it lol.
Gamble boxes for cash, are worse than real life casnios
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Im saying that i like the LP system in-game, didnt mentioned the business model around it, i even left open if it is well implementd or not. And yes, it balance the economy whatever was the inicial real reason of implementation.
I dont play that games so i dont comment. LP is a chalenge in-game where we need to learn to use it wise to reach some objectives. Again, im only talking about pure gameplay and not the business model. Buy and sell in AH is a huge part of the game to those who want to maximize the LP consume.
I dont like CS, for me it shouldnt exist, only care about what i can do with 13 euros per month. I did that playing in RU with half of the current LP regen and i was happy.
The LP system is not a Challenge. It's an artificial Energy gauge system to frustrate dedicated (addicted) players and make them buy LP pots in the store to continue.
It has nothing to do realism. It has nothing to do with balancing crafting, harvesting and selling nor protecting the ingame economy.
As people with big wallets keep on buying LP pots over multiple Patron status accounts and characters, race to the top, flood and corner the entire market in no time when the game releases. They can exhaust over 8000 LP per character per day!
Everyone else will be out of the Picture and won't stand a chance against these practices.
And this my friend. Is the text book example of Pay 2 Win.
It doesn't have to be endgame gear in the store. That is a very narrowminded way of thinking (by many People here on these forums) that that only is Pay 2 Win. There are many ways (much better disguisable ways) of putting P2W items in the Cash Shop.
Putting gambling boxes in the store, that have a chance to drop ultra rare high end crafting materials. Is just another of many examples.
The need for a company to earn money does not excuse all methods of attempting to earn money. It's not hard to get a sense of what the consumers in this market feel are acceptable ways to get revenue. For me, Trion fucked up with the labor point pots. You recognize that people want more LP and your solution is to sell it to them for cash rather than increasing the regen rate? No, get fucked.