Star wars...with laser guns instead of swords. Would've been another crappy sci-fi.
This pretty much nailed it.
I hate to keep saying this but there's nothing romantic about a blaster.
Swords or magic on the other hand elicit a sense of wonder and bring conflict to a much more personal level.
This:
If you go to Nexus Mods for Skyrim and search for "saber" there is a page full of lightsaber variations. There are at least 2 more full pages of mods dealing with the "force" And 4 mods came up under "jedi" But out of almost 30K mods for skyrim, there is only 1 that comes up under "blaster"
It does seem that any MMO that relies upon Science Fiction as its backbone is failing at present. Why? … well I think it is because everybody or rather the majority find the notion of having a breathing avatar existing in a world ruled by the wielding of metal and the practice of dark magic more wantingly tangible with its heroic and 'romantic' ideology than living in a world of rockets and high-tech machinery, residing in lesser considered environments and often inhabited by the most unfeasible of creatures or landscapes.
I think weapons brimming with the harnessed power of scientific invention and manmade discovery are possibly less attractive than say a manmade sword imbued with powers of witchcraft or sorcery.
Blizzards latest announcement cancelling Titan echoes this along with the huge slap in the face that Wildstar is seemingly subject to. I really liked the premise of this game and in many ways its promise is fantastic … if only the story and darkness of the Elder could start happening quicker then we could be plunged into a world of the satirical satanic where the dark humour and horror of the suggested story could really become captivating. I still think Wildstar will get this second wave but only when it becomes more ‘earthy’and sinister.
Warcraft going back to its roots with Warlords of Dreanor is all about the clashing of metal and the summoning of learned sorcery and with such has allowed for a far more poetic and dramatic storyline . Which like it or not will certainly succeed in getting folks back into the game. .Pandas are cuddly and humorous … and as such have become realized as a ‘S... not no good... decision’.
I realize EVE is popular.. but you have to love the notion of endless space and spaceships for it to engulf you, along with the pursuit of complex trade and political agreements. It is a proven and solid choice if such things are your bag. But if a breathing avatar is what your after ... nope.
Being more basic I hate worlds of intangibility … I reckon that Destiny will ultimately fall short once the flash and bang has become normality. Without a sense of a well written history or residence why would any MMO player want to ‘live’ there.
And ‘live’ is the point….or alternative living. Load up screens or an online world populated or invested by the invented organically intangible, or tentacled stupid’s just make your eyes roll.
Religion is still feasible ... so lets go to hell and back, along with warmongery and the fear of an impending mace were all quids in...
Outside of WoW, fantasy games aren't doing any better than Sci-Fi games.
One of my biggest issues with the current crop of Sci-Fi games is how they stick to fantasy tropes and try to shoehorn them into the gameplay. Destiny for instance is absolutely terrible about this. That game would have been 10x better if they would have stuck to a pure science genre instead of the goofy fantasy nonsense they went with.
The best ones are the ones that separate themselves from Fantasy altogether and stick to hard science (Eve, Star Trek, Elite Dangerous).
I tried Faces of Mankind once, but the RNG gun damage turned me off. Shoot someone in the face, point-blank range, and do 8 damage wtf is that nonsense
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
There is no need for sci-fi stories to take place in a wasteland like Wall-E or in a sterile looking environment. It can be full of live and nature and personal contact.
Take Star Wars. Instead of a regular spear, they had so called "electropoles". So what, thats just a lighting enchantment. They still used shields you had to wear on one arm that had a clear shape, instead of a shield projected by a generator. They did use the later for projecting the army as a whole, but they still had a clear source. Like a wizard casting a shield sphere.
They even used horns and animals to ride into battle etc.
Or take two Jedi (or Sith) fighting in the forest of Endor or in the swamps of Dagobah.
Heck, Jedi Kights *are* magicians for all intents and purposes. Casting lighting, telekinesis, both clairvoyance as well as noticing events that take place far away the moment they do happen, fighting with a magical sword. While it does require some complex mechanics, the power source is utlimately still the force. And even while crafting it, the force is required.
So, the problem is not sci-fi per se, but that many sci-fi games actively seek to distinquish themselves from fantasy.
Simplified, it's like Star Wars vs Star Trek. Star Wars is often up close and personal, everything is dirty and mostly functional. The main characters have lots of different backgrounds and act and dress accordingly. Star Trek uses a lot of long range fights, wether it's in space or on ground. The Enterprise is incredibly clean, the main characters mostly have the same (major) background of going through Starfleet Academy etc. and all wear uniform.
Describing Star Wars as being about surviving doesn't really do it, but compared to Star Trek, where they first discuss for two episodes whether they should actually engage, Star Wars is dark and gritty.
They just have to translate that to video games, and it would be fantasy in space.
There are also quite a lot of different stories that actually use "fantasy in space" or cross the border, depends on how you see it. Long time ago (probably 15-20 years or so) i read a series of books that was your typical fantasy saga. Knights, mages, dragons etc. One day, they ended up in space, fighting with the alien pope from outer space against said dragons (or something like that). And it worked!
Given that a lot of time passed, and it was just a small sample of all existing stories, there should now be millions of stories that cross the border, but they all get ignored to serve as the the same old.
And don't forget the Spelljammer setting. AD&D is the epitomy of high fantasy, and yet, there is a setting that lets us explore space.
It's only matter of human imagination/creativity, not a limitation of the genre or anything.
Star Wars is not science fiction, but fantasy in a futuristic setting (well, actually its the past far far away)
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some of the replies have some really impressive depth and really echoes the fact that no developer as of yet has sufficiently introduced a Sci-Fi MMO.
I agree that Star Wars has it's roots in Fantasy and the depth of story with the Jedi and Sith is as solid as any in it's potential for the proposition of a 'good' game. But with SWTOR I think that it is the environments that fall short and seem empty and the endless clanking of running on metal and 'not' being able to sit down in a Cantina for instance, dissolves the real world aspect and things start feeling a little barren.
I also think that because science fiction conjures up vast travel and the visitation of multiple worlds it reduces the chance that any singular environment will get the attention to detail so desperately needed in order to create the depth of exploration that people yearn for when walking their avatar out into that online 'real world' setting.
The reason I think that a High Fantasy world is more appealing at this point in the MMO evolution is, as many have already pointed out, that any game developer has possibly less to build when not engaging into the endless and unseen universe with it's design palette of endless options and too many opinions that is Science Fiction.
Maybe with any new Sci Fi MMO on the horizon they should concentrate on the smaller things first and travel gradually rather than atempting too much too soon and ultimately spreading themselves too thin.
Along with strong environments I think that fear and awe grab your attention, this can only be achieved through a decent sense of story to capture your imagination. I know when having conversations over the years with a friend who has also been playing PC gmaes online for years he always thought that that Diablo would make a great MMO. We discussed at great length how you could literally be on the side of the angels though of course we are not talking cutesy and my little pony... more of the fallen variety. The exploration of the sinister carved into a meaningful landscape would certainly grab you, particularly one with no loading screens and a proper sense of travel, villages and towns. I think that games that rely on one huge faction city and nothing else is a 'huge' floor ... not a big fan of Thayd in this respect and thought that even a smaller 'Las Vegas' inspired Township with real gambling and dueling more suitable to the Wildstar story than a huge Megaville with it's horrible shanty aspects. With towns you might actually see someone.
Really like the potential 'doom' aspect of the Eldar story though.
Starcraft has often been suggested as a good basis for an MMO but possibly it is the lack of world knowledge that is the issue here. I do think that with the reboot of WOW with the Warlords of Draenor and revisiting of the portal suggests that Blizzard may possibly be launching Orcs into Space sometime in the future and who knows they may very well come face to face with the Zerg.
Well I can't see all of that Titan research going to waste ....
Sci-Fi then low fantasy games and then my least favourite are high fantasy games.
As for Sci-Fi mmorpgs not donig so good.. well there has only really been one good sci-fi mmo for some time now and thats Eve and I guess thats doing just fine.
SWG was amazing before LA broke it, Anarachy Online was really good after they fixed the launch issues but its very old now and really needs the engine update they have been going on about haha.
The upcoming mmorpg The Repopulation looks like its going to be awesome but will have to wait and see..
I feel most fantasy games are pretty dire bar the few exceptions like LotRO, TSW etc. Story and engagement have gone out the window in favour of dolly-dress-up.
I'm a big fan of Elite because of its hard sci-fi vibe, EVE also scores well especially when you look past the more obvious goings-on.
I personally prefer sci-fi as a setting, but here is my run-down on several games and why I think your argument is based on incomparable examples: -
First of all I will handle fantasy games: -
WOW is wildly successful and an anomaly within the genre.
The likes of LOTRO, Rift, DDO, AoC, Allods etc are moderately successful at best.
There are many, many fantasy games that have been released and just sunk below the radar.
Now Sci-fi games: -
By all accounts since turning 'F2P' SWTOR has been a huge success. (Although as someone else said SW is more fantasy in space than real sci-fi.)
Games such as Firefall and Defiance are fairly limited shooters and do not incorporate a lot of core mmo features.
Games such as Eve and Perpetuum aim for a specific and limited FFA PVP audience.
Games such as Wildstar have far more in common with generic fantasy than Sci-fi. It may have a sci-fi label but there is very little sci-fi about it.
There is no doubt that sci-fi has been neglected as a setting in the post-WOW years, and there are still few examples of sci-fi mmorpg's providing all the features that have come to be expected of the acronym; far fewer than the those with a fantasy setting.
So in conclusion I think it is difficult to make a comparison of the two settings without taking into account the manner in which one has been saturated with releases and the other largely neglected.
for Mmorpgs? yeah nothing beat fantasy , Swords , magic , dragons , castles , cool looking enviroments, u can add some technology but not too much or u break it.
i love sci-fi too but for single rpg/movies/series/
Originally posted by Anireth "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think this is why Fantasy is better, for me. Sci-Fi tends to take the "wonder" out of things by explaining everything in a scientific matter.
I'd rather have magic than technology. But technology can be fun, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Anireth "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think this is why Fantasy is better, for me. Sci-Fi tends to take the "wonder" out of things by explaining everything in a scientific matter.I'd rather have magic than technology. But technology can be fun, too
I strongly dislike magic (I include Jedi type powers as magic), usually because: -It is usually horribly inconsistent; so much so it breaks all immersion.It is often used as filler for major plot holes.It is a poor alternative to exposition (the 'it happened because of .... magic' thing). Which is why I lean more towards sci-fi.
I certainly can not dispute that. I've seen these problems too many times, myself
Star Trek: TNG had a series of "Oh, it's just a holodeck scenario!" plots. Very disappointing, too. Sci-Fi is not immune
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I like SciFi a little, I like the idea of checking new planets and solar systems but that's it. Fantasy for me is just on another level though. I really like GW1 world and the timeline.
People who claim Star Wars as sci-fi really have no clue what they are talking about. Star Trek is soft sci-fi at best, and while fun to watch their adventures, the premise itself is always the same, much like any western, just a different setting. StarWars is considered a space-opera genre of sci-fi but personally I wouldn't say that's sci-fi, but fantasy in space.
Eve backstory is proper sci-fi, I dont mean spaceships, but the world, lives, characters, tech etc. Make a game in that world and you have sci-fi, but stay true to it.
Last decent sci-fi mmo was Anarchy Online.
Quiet a cool sci-fi setting but not really an MMO is Warframe.
I didnt play Neocron - the Matrix mmo.
Zombi-apocalypse sci-fi isn't what I personally consider as sci-fi, more a fantasy setting with less options.
Space is not boring, with space there is so much possibility, you have freedom to be creative and it is great for a more darker, mature, explorative environment.
Fantasy is so dull, if I read another fantasy novel or play another fantasy game I will shoot myself, I cant do it.
People who claim Star Wars as sci-fi really have no clue what they are talking about. Star Trek is soft sci-fi at best, and while fun to watch their adventures, the premise itself is always the same, much like any western, just a different setting. StarWars is considered a space-opera genre of sci-fi but personally I wouldn't say that's sci-fi, but fantasy in space.
Eve backstory is proper sci-fi, I dont mean spaceships, but the world, lives, characters, tech etc. Make a game in that world and you have sci-fi, but stay true to it.
Last decent sci-fi mmo was Anarchy Online.
Quiet a cool sci-fi setting but not really an MMO is Warframe.
I didnt play Neocron - the Matrix mmo.
Zombi-apocalypse sci-fi isn't what I personally consider as sci-fi, more a fantasy setting with less options.
Space is not boring, with space there is so much possibility, you have freedom to be creative and it is great for a more darker, mature, explorative environment.
Fantasy is so dull, if I read another fantasy novel or play another fantasy game I will shoot myself, I cant do it.
Star Wars is a re-telling of the Battle of Britain but transferred into space. It is nothing more or less than that.
People who claim Star Wars as sci-fi really have no clue what they are talking about. Star Trek is soft sci-fi at best, and while fun to watch their adventures, the premise itself is always the same, much like any western, just a different setting. StarWars is considered a space-opera genre of sci-fi but personally I wouldn't say that's sci-fi, but fantasy in space.
Eve backstory is proper sci-fi, I dont mean spaceships, but the world, lives, characters, tech etc. Make a game in that world and you have sci-fi, but stay true to it.
Last decent sci-fi mmo was Anarchy Online.
Quiet a cool sci-fi setting but not really an MMO is Warframe.
I didnt play Neocron - the Matrix mmo.
Zombi-apocalypse sci-fi isn't what I personally consider as sci-fi, more a fantasy setting with less options.
Space is not boring, with space there is so much possibility, you have freedom to be creative and it is great for a more darker, mature, explorative environment.
Fantasy is so dull, if I read another fantasy novel or play another fantasy game I will shoot myself, I cant do it.
Star Wars is a re-telling of the Battle of Britain but transferred into space. It is nothing more or less than that.
Shakespeare once wrote that only 7 stories exist in the world, everything else is a variation or a retelling in a different wrapper.
Star Wars is a re-telling of the Battle of Britain but transferred into space. It is nothing more or less than that.
I would love to know who is Luke, Hansolo, Leia and which nation would you say are the woookies, chewbacca?
Well, I wasn't planning on going into that much detail, but look at the story arc, the nazi uniforms and U-boat space ships, the dog-fights, the dam buster raids etc.
Actually it was Dan Dare that was the Battle of Britain transferred into space. Now there's an idea! Bring back the Treens! To the Platinum Planet! Dear me, i'm showing my age ...
For me Sci-Fi has a lot of flavors that are not miscible within the genre.
-Star Wars vs. Traveller for instance. One is basically fantasy, the other more like hard science fiction.
-Then you have something like Warhammer 40k which is dark and a fantasy hybrid,
-or something like Firefly which is just a themed derivative of Traveller.
-Dune is the philosophy student's favorite, and has anti-technology themes.
-Alien/Aliens universe would be great because the low tech level and serious EVE like attitude that you could have in corporate police actions. Interstellar travel in Aliens setting is sleep time, as they have inverse time dilation so Players would be knocked out for travel.
-Star Trek, kind of the light hearted Tom Clancy novel in space (I know it pre-dates Clancy)
-Starship Troopers (Book, not the terrible movies), which would allow the player to be a powerful vehicle of destruction.
The generic Sci-Fi still has to choose its particulars in order to have continuity with itself, which can be harder to do than a Fantasy setting where you can mix elements pretty seamlessly in a low-ish tech environment. There is generally more kinds of exposition in Sci-Fi, where Fantasy normally has Historical, Mythology, and Cultural alone.
In addition that exposition can be (and is generaly more successful as) loopy and magical in Fantasy. In Sci-Fi it has to be more palatable to a modern sensibility.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Comments
This:
If you go to Nexus Mods for Skyrim and search for "saber" there is a page full of lightsaber variations. There are at least 2 more full pages of mods dealing with the "force" And 4 mods came up under "jedi" But out of almost 30K mods for skyrim, there is only 1 that comes up under "blaster"
Outside of WoW, fantasy games aren't doing any better than Sci-Fi games.
One of my biggest issues with the current crop of Sci-Fi games is how they stick to fantasy tropes and try to shoehorn them into the gameplay. Destiny for instance is absolutely terrible about this. That game would have been 10x better if they would have stuck to a pure science genre instead of the goofy fantasy nonsense they went with.
The best ones are the ones that separate themselves from Fantasy altogether and stick to hard science (Eve, Star Trek, Elite Dangerous).
Star Wars is not science fiction, but fantasy in a futuristic setting (well, actually its the past far far away)
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some of the replies have some really impressive depth and really echoes the fact that no developer as of yet has sufficiently introduced a Sci-Fi MMO.
I agree that Star Wars has it's roots in Fantasy and the depth of story with the Jedi and Sith is as solid as any in it's potential for the proposition of a 'good' game. But with SWTOR I think that it is the environments that fall short and seem empty and the endless clanking of running on metal and 'not' being able to sit down in a Cantina for instance, dissolves the real world aspect and things start feeling a little barren.
I also think that because science fiction conjures up vast travel and the visitation of multiple worlds it reduces the chance that any singular environment will get the attention to detail so desperately needed in order to create the depth of exploration that people yearn for when walking their avatar out into that online 'real world' setting.
The reason I think that a High Fantasy world is more appealing at this point in the MMO evolution is, as many have already pointed out, that any game developer has possibly less to build when not engaging into the endless and unseen universe with it's design palette of endless options and too many opinions that is Science Fiction.
Maybe with any new Sci Fi MMO on the horizon they should concentrate on the smaller things first and travel gradually rather than atempting too much too soon and ultimately spreading themselves too thin.
Along with strong environments I think that fear and awe grab your attention, this can only be achieved through a decent sense of story to capture your imagination. I know when having conversations over the years with a friend who has also been playing PC gmaes online for years he always thought that that Diablo would make a great MMO. We discussed at great length how you could literally be on the side of the angels though of course we are not talking cutesy and my little pony... more of the fallen variety. The exploration of the sinister carved into a meaningful landscape would certainly grab you, particularly one with no loading screens and a proper sense of travel, villages and towns. I think that games that rely on one huge faction city and nothing else is a 'huge' floor ... not a big fan of Thayd in this respect and thought that even a smaller 'Las Vegas' inspired Township with real gambling and dueling more suitable to the Wildstar story than a huge Megaville with it's horrible shanty aspects. With towns you might actually see someone.
Really like the potential 'doom' aspect of the Eldar story though.
Starcraft has often been suggested as a good basis for an MMO but possibly it is the lack of world knowledge that is the issue here. I do think that with the reboot of WOW with the Warlords of Draenor and revisiting of the portal suggests that Blizzard may possibly be launching Orcs into Space sometime in the future and who knows they may very well come face to face with the Zerg.
Well I can't see all of that Titan research going to waste ....
For me its
Sci-Fi then low fantasy games and then my least favourite are high fantasy games.
As for Sci-Fi mmorpgs not donig so good.. well there has only really been one good sci-fi mmo for some time now and thats Eve and I guess thats doing just fine.
SWG was amazing before LA broke it, Anarachy Online was really good after they fixed the launch issues but its very old now and really needs the engine update they have been going on about haha.
The upcoming mmorpg The Repopulation looks like its going to be awesome but will have to wait and see..
I feel most fantasy games are pretty dire bar the few exceptions like LotRO, TSW etc. Story and engagement have gone out the window in favour of dolly-dress-up.
I'm a big fan of Elite because of its hard sci-fi vibe, EVE also scores well especially when you look past the more obvious goings-on.
I personally prefer sci-fi as a setting, but here is my run-down on several games and why I think your argument is based on incomparable examples: -
First of all I will handle fantasy games: -
i love sci-fi too but for single rpg/movies/series/
I'd rather have magic than technology. But technology can be fun, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I strongly dislike magic (I include Jedi type powers as magic), usually because: -
Star Trek: TNG had a series of "Oh, it's just a holodeck scenario!" plots. Very disappointing, too. Sci-Fi is not immune
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
haha very true. But Star Trek (although entertaining) is poor sci-fi.
People who claim Star Wars as sci-fi really have no clue what they are talking about. Star Trek is soft sci-fi at best, and while fun to watch their adventures, the premise itself is always the same, much like any western, just a different setting. StarWars is considered a space-opera genre of sci-fi but personally I wouldn't say that's sci-fi, but fantasy in space.
Eve backstory is proper sci-fi, I dont mean spaceships, but the world, lives, characters, tech etc. Make a game in that world and you have sci-fi, but stay true to it.
Last decent sci-fi mmo was Anarchy Online.
Quiet a cool sci-fi setting but not really an MMO is Warframe.
I didnt play Neocron - the Matrix mmo.
Zombi-apocalypse sci-fi isn't what I personally consider as sci-fi, more a fantasy setting with less options.
Space is not boring, with space there is so much possibility, you have freedom to be creative and it is great for a more darker, mature, explorative environment.
Fantasy is so dull, if I read another fantasy novel or play another fantasy game I will shoot myself, I cant do it.
Star Wars is a re-telling of the Battle of Britain but transferred into space. It is nothing more or less than that.
Shakespeare once wrote that only 7 stories exist in the world, everything else is a variation or a retelling in a different wrapper.
Star Wars is a re-telling of the Battle of Britain but transferred into space. It is nothing more or less than that.
I would love to know who is Luke, Hansolo, Leia and which nation would you say are the woookies, chewbacca?
Well, I wasn't planning on going into that much detail, but look at the story arc, the nazi uniforms and U-boat space ships, the dog-fights, the dam buster raids etc.
For me Sci-Fi has a lot of flavors that are not miscible within the genre.
-Star Wars vs. Traveller for instance. One is basically fantasy, the other more like hard science fiction.
-Then you have something like Warhammer 40k which is dark and a fantasy hybrid,
-or something like Firefly which is just a themed derivative of Traveller.
-Dune is the philosophy student's favorite, and has anti-technology themes.
-Alien/Aliens universe would be great because the low tech level and serious EVE like attitude that you could have in corporate police actions. Interstellar travel in Aliens setting is sleep time, as they have inverse time dilation so Players would be knocked out for travel.
-Star Trek, kind of the light hearted Tom Clancy novel in space (I know it pre-dates Clancy)
-Starship Troopers (Book, not the terrible movies), which would allow the player to be a powerful vehicle of destruction.
The generic Sci-Fi still has to choose its particulars in order to have continuity with itself, which can be harder to do than a Fantasy setting where you can mix elements pretty seamlessly in a low-ish tech environment. There is generally more kinds of exposition in Sci-Fi, where Fantasy normally has Historical, Mythology, and Cultural alone.
In addition that exposition can be (and is generaly more successful as) loopy and magical in Fantasy. In Sci-Fi it has to be more palatable to a modern sensibility.
The wookies would be Poland. A bow and arrow vrs tank didn't work out well for either of them.