Why any player will prefer to play vs mobs instead vs other players? I can understand so called pve players if we are talking about a game without fight, some kind of Sims or Farmville. But we are talking about fight vs AI or vs other human player.
The difference is, you cannot lose in fight with AI. There is no losers in solo games. There is no losers in fights with mobs. If the mob kills the player, that does not mean the player is weak, stupid or noob. It just happens. It is even acceptable to lose gear and experience in pve, but not in PvP. But to win vs AI is totally delusional.
What changes, when instead vs AI, you fight vs other player? It is simple, you can lose, and the other player can win. You can be a weak, stupid, noob loser. Of course you can be a winner too. So why so called pve players do not want PvP or ask only for "fair" PvP in arenas. Because they are cowards. They are so afraid not to lose, and they ask for games without losers. But if there is no losers, there is no winners too.
The only difference among AI and human opponent is the risk. In both cases you fight with some pixels. But when the pixels are controlled from another player, they are more dangerous and my be cruel to losers.
This makes me wish I was a dev. If I knew how to program I could make an AI that no real person could ever defeat. It would move so chaotically, so quickly, that you wouldnt even be able to target it. So to say that you cannot lose a fight with an A.I. is just wrong. There is no losers in solo games? PLay skyrim on the highest difficulty, with fully moddeed AI and using Skyre, with no followers, no gear, no spells and lets see you defeat almost any mob. even a wolf. Cannot be done without cheating.
Now I realize my stupidity: following this thread.
This is already possible. They passed the point where AIs had to cheat to win years ago. The reasons for making AI as simple as they are or as predictable as they are pretty much all fall under the category of "players enjoy it more". The difference is in the experience.
Players can either spend time thinking about how to beat the boss, coming up with ways to win inside a defined framework, or they can mindlessly grind away at the system until they have enough resources to zerg the boss. Both require an investment of time and effort, but only the one gets the players to think about what they are doing and only the first one provides a framework where players can gradually improve both their game play and character stats.
That and AI calculations for any proper AI takes a lot of processing power from the server. The number of AI agents a server has to handle in an average MMO is substantial. If people are happy with less, it is all the more reason not to invest in AI. Hence we have the loathsome aggro systems.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Obviously not true because every MMO since WoW has come out and flopped, apparently they weren't delivering what players wanted at all.
What?
How is Marvel Heroes a flop when it is continuing to thrive and adding content?
How is TOR a flop when it makes more than $200M just in 2013?
How is GW2 a flop when it sold 3.5M copies in the first 2 weeks?
You have a weird definition of "flop".
By this logic Original Everquest is the Greatest MMO around. Servers have been up and running longer then any other MMO and they are getting ready to release what , their 22 expansion. Must make them the king ... ALL HALE EQ !
I couldn't get into UO back in the day. Just too crappy of graphics for my liking and for the time. But it seemed fun. And to tell you the truth i thought EQ was a pretty stupid waste of time also ... until the PvP servers went live.
I couldn't get into UO back in the day. Just too crappy of graphics for my liking and for the time. But it seemed fun. And to tell you the truth i thought EQ was a pretty stupid waste of time also ... until the PvP servers went live.
nah .. "fun" is subjective.
And
... newbie being killed where they spawn is not fun for me ...
... clicking stones 10000 times to up mining skills is not fun for me ....
.... UO combat is not fun for me ....
I won't play that game even if the graphics is improved.
Everyone wants to be the hunter, no one wants to be the prey.
Only reason it existed was due to the limited choices available.
Now, not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My thought is that the time you played didn't have those people who weren't dissuaded by what was a more aggressive pvp system.
Remember, the heyday when I played had a more aggressive pvp/pk system. It was then lessened as time went by.
So the people who were die hard reds weren't even dissuaded by them dropping a lot of items for so few pk's.
My other thought is the other game you mentioned, EVE. Though I was pk'ed in the high sec (that's the less pk area correct?), and I have very little idea of how that happened (I was mining while another ship hovered about me, I went to get my canister and I was dead. at least that's how I remember it) it seems that at least EVE has a more regulated system.
I do not thing you are right about the PK system. It became more punishable for PKers with every Chronicle. In H5 there was a perfect balance for me. And PK became a limited and usually rational act as the risk/reward factor worked well. In GoD that balance was broken, the PK system was so punishable, that players became perma red, because they could not clean the karma. So it is a question of balance between risk and reward, because most of the players try to play rational.
That is why I do not like EVE system with zones. There is no PK in EVE, so killing of other player is always rewarding. But different security zones create some balance among PvP and pve. No matter there is no 100% safe zone.
hmmm, that's not how I remember it but then again I didn't play much after a certain point so I can only defer to your experience in the later game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
1) optional PvP, like DAOC or ESO. If you want to, you can level in the PvP zones, and can be jumped and killed at any time. That should satisfy the thrill seekers. These games are popular, and allow the player to do PvP or engage in some other safe activities. The choice is up to the player.
2) forced PvP. These games force PvP on the player, whether he wants to fight or not. They are not very popular, and none of these types of games has broken into the top tier of gaming.
Many people enjoy PvP, as DAOC showed. It is very popular, the idea of building up your character, getting into the PvP zone, and capturing a keep or a relic. And you can just play all the time in the PvP zones if you want to be attackable all the time.
But that doesn't seem to satisfy a segment of gamers; they want to always be able to attack unwilling players, and won't be satisfied with consensual PvP. And many of these players turn out to be griefers, like camping the respawn spot and killing noobs as they try to respawn, over and over.
So yes, there is plenty of PK'ing, unless you mean PK'ing is only PvP against unwilling players. And of course, that is not very popular.
But that doesn't seem to satisfy a segment of gamers; they want to always be able to attack unwilling players, and won't be satisfied with consensual PvP. And many of these players turn out to be griefers, like camping the respawn spot and killing noobs as they try to respawn, over and over.
See .. here is the good news. It takes 2 to pvp. "Unwilling" players, by definition, won't play such a game.
go play eve(and jump to zero security zones) or planet side 2 or any of the other pvp centric games thn n yull get plenty of pk opportunities if thts what yu seek
or just go play on a pvp server in games w optional pvp and just set yur pvp flag to always b on wouldnt tht help yu get yur thrills op? or a 2nd much harder choice make a game yurself if yu cant find any with a pk system yu want
go play eve(and jump to zero security zones) or planet side 2 or any of the other pvp centric games thn n yull get plenty of pk opportunities if thts what yu seek
or just go play on a pvp server in games w optional pvp and just set yur pvp flag to always b on wouldnt tht help yu get yur thrills op? or a 2nd much harder choice make a game yurself if yu cant find any with a pk system yu want
Would have to be EVE. Planetside 2 is not really about griefing people. You can be spawn room camped, but u just spawn somewhere else and grab a tank or aircraft. There is also no loss in PS2, and no character to set back.
EVE has the sort of pediacidal thrill that griefers need in order to reach climax. You can invest tons of time in a non-combat activity and the douche ray will burn you down as soon as you feel like it. It's perfect. I don't know why the hardcore crowd want a different game.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Some of you love it. A lot of you hate it. But let's be honest Pkers adds a thrilling element to any game. It also makes room for anti-pking, and the battle rages on.
You probably aren't aware of this but your post is the "umpteenth" post proclaiming that "it adds a thrilling element to any game".
What about the people who aren't thrilled about it?
As for me, I have no problems with pk'ers unless they are "dicks" about it.
And that's what happened. Some people used the mechanic to work out their issues or essentially be jerks about it because they could, people complained and then developers started separating, adding battle grounds, putting in "flags" if you wanted to pvp, etc.
Still, there are games that have added it so you should be able to find something.
This guy has only made nine posts so he is clearly a newbie to our forums. give him a break. you have like 140000 posts so you have probably read and ran off any thread makers in regards to pvp. Well, guess what people like pvp and want a pure form of pvp. he's posting about how he likes it. ok? that's how these things get put into games. people talk about what they like developers get the point and put it in. so for example like you said, people complain about pvp, and the more they do so developers take it out. Well guess what???? people say they like it and the more they do, developers might put it in their games.
its like a tug of war of complaining/voicing out/speaking about what you like and don't like. Yes carebears make up the majority of the mainstream or are the loudest voices, but pvp'ers can post they want a xyz style of game with xyz pvp rulesets without you trying to "stamp out the flames" of their voice. get it?
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Some of you love it. A lot of you hate it. But let's be honest Pkers adds a thrilling element to any game. It also makes room for anti-pking, and the battle rages on.
You probably aren't aware of this but your post is the "umpteenth" post proclaiming that "it adds a thrilling element to any game".
What about the people who aren't thrilled about it?
As for me, I have no problems with pk'ers unless they are "dicks" about it.
And that's what happened. Some people used the mechanic to work out their issues or essentially be jerks about it because they could, people complained and then developers started separating, adding battle grounds, putting in "flags" if you wanted to pvp, etc.
Still, there are games that have added it so you should be able to find something.
This guy has only made nine posts so he is clearly a newbie to our forums. give him a break. you have like 140000 posts so you have probably read and ran off any thread makers in regards to pvp. Well, guess what people like pvp and want a pure form of pvp. he's posting about how he likes it. ok? that's how these things get put into games. people talk about what they like developers get the point and put it in. so for example like you said, people complain about pvp, and the more they do so developers take it out. Well guess what???? people say they like it and the more they do, developers might put it in their games.
its like a tug of war of complaining/voicing out/speaking about what you like and don't like. Yes carebears make up the majority of the mainstream or are the loudest voices, but pvp'ers can post they want a xyz style of game with xyz pvp rulesets without you trying to "stamp out the flames" of their voice. get it?
The really amusing part of this guys admonishment is that he represents the vocal majority that have cried and bitched so much to get developers to remove any features that actually challenge or punish gamers that all new mainstream MMORPGs have started looking like this. . .
Yet at the same time its these very same vocal majority that come here and endlessly trash every new AAA MMORPG because its generic, bland, cookie cutter, and boring. And again, looks exactly like this. . .
Congratulations friends and babies. You've made developers decide that trying anything new or innovative is too risky so they'll just keep giving us this watered down horse shit time and time again. You casuals have won. ENJOY IT.
EVE has the sort of pediacidal thrill that griefers need in order to reach climax. You can invest tons of time in a non-combat activity and the douche ray will burn you down as soon as you feel like it. It's perfect. I don't know why the hardcore crowd want a different game.
Because playing just a single game over and over is boring to many?
And yet as pointed out, the prospect of another MMO with real PKing is too unprofitable for most companies to bother making another game with it, let alone invest a lot into making sure its' high quality.
I guess that means that once the (relatively small amount of) people who want real open world ganking with their victims occurring actual losses tire of Eve, they're screwed when it comes to new options. Given that many of them seem to have personalities where they call others "snot-nosed brats" and other worser explicitives, I can't say I have much sympathy for their plight.
And yet as pointed out, the prospect of another MMO with real PKing is too unprofitable for most companies to bother making another game with it, let alone invest a lot into making sure its' high quality.
I guess that means that once the (relatively small amount of) people who want real open world ganking with their victims occurring actual losses tire of Eve, they're screwed when it comes to new options. Given that many of them seem to have personalities where they call others "snot-nosed brats" and other worser explicitives, I can't say I have much sympathy for their plight.
As opposed to the other side of the coin that continually calls people who enjoy open world pvp, neckbeards, troglodytes and cellar dwellers, I'm not really sure I follow your logic.
And yet as pointed out, the prospect of another MMO with real PKing is too unprofitable for most companies to bother making another game with it, let alone invest a lot into making sure its' high quality.
I guess that means that once the (relatively small amount of) people who want real open world ganking with their victims occurring actual losses tire of Eve, they're screwed when it comes to new options. Given that many of them seem to have personalities where they call others "snot-nosed brats" and other worser explicitives, I can't say I have much sympathy for their plight.
As opposed to the other side of the coin that continually calls people who enjoy open world pvp, neckbeards, troglodytes and cellar dwellers, I'm not really sure I follow your logic.
And yet as pointed out, the prospect of another MMO with real PKing is too unprofitable for most companies to bother making another game with it, let alone invest a lot into making sure its' high quality.
I guess that means that once the (relatively small amount of) people who want real open world ganking with their victims occurring actual losses tire of Eve, they're screwed when it comes to new options. Given that many of them seem to have personalities where they call others "snot-nosed brats" and other worser explicitives, I can't say I have much sympathy for their plight.
As opposed to the other side of the coin that continually calls people who enjoy open world pvp, neckbeards, troglodytes and cellar dwellers, I'm not really sure I follow your logic.
nah .. just call them niche.
And funnily enough we both actually agree on that description. However seeing how many new AAA MMOs have launched in the past few years with much adoration and fanfare, only to then fall flat on their face as players see it's just more of the same old shit, I'm betting that in a few years most MMO gamers as we know them are going to be called niche players. And its going to be the player base themselves that are at fault.
Please understand I'm not saying that adding full loot hardcore pvp to all, or even any, new MMORPG will make them better or popular. What I'm saying is the death of open world pvp is just part of the disturbing trend of the industries continuous trimming of MMO features, and just sticking with the safe and boring choices.
So the majority didn't like some features so game companies took them out. I'm fine with that. What I am not ok with is that they then never bothered to replace them with anything else. So every new MMO just seems to be the same dull tiny room with different wallpaper.
And funnily enough we both actually agree on that description. However seeing how many new AAA MMOs have launched in the past few years with much adoration and fanfare, only to then fall flat on their face as players see it's just more of the same old shit, I'm betting that in a few years most MMO gamers as we know them are going to be called niche players. And its going to be the player base themselves that are at fault.
Please understand I'm not saying that adding full loot hardcore pvp to all, or even any, new MMORPG will make them better or popular. What I'm saying is the death of open world pvp is just part of the disturbing trend of the industries continuous trimming of MMO features, and just sticking with the safe and boring choices.
So the majority didn't like some features so game companies took them out. I'm fine with that. What I am not ok with is that they then never bothered to replace them with anything else. So every new MMO just seems to be the same dull tiny room with different wallpaper.
wait .. what are you talking about? There are *many* new MMOs (in the past couple of years) that make it big. MOBAs, World of Tanks, Destiny.
And yes, the industry is trimming down on MMO features (or shall we say classical MMO features) because they are not that popular (like open world this or that ...) But what do you mean they never bothered to replace them with anything else?
They created a new sub-genre MOBA, they created focused pvp instanced games (like World of Tanks), pve games (like PoE or Marvel Heroes), and lots of other alternatives. If you are complaining that the new crops of MMOs are very much unlike the old ones .. then sure, it is true. They are replacing MMOs with other types of online games (which i suspect since all the MMO websites are broadening the term MMO, all of them will be categorized as MMO at some point).
As it should be, mmorpg's should be niche and stop trying to be all things to all men - that's just stupidity and greed. Maybe then people who don't get mmorpg's will no longer feel the need to complain in forums that are aimed at mmorpg as mmorpg's will stop trying to aim at fans fro Multiple genre including non- rpg.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom As it should be, mmorpg's should be niche and stop trying to be all things to all men - that's just stupidity and greed. Maybe then people who don't get mmorpg's will no longer feel the need to complain in forums that are aimed at mmorpg as mmorpg's will stop trying to aim at fans fro Multiple genre including non- rpg.
Yeah! Companies like to make less money because this guy says so.....
Comments
That and AI calculations for any proper AI takes a lot of processing power from the server. The number of AI agents a server has to handle in an average MMO is substantial. If people are happy with less, it is all the more reason not to invest in AI. Hence we have the loathsome aggro systems.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You are right there, Darkfall is still probably the best PvP game out there ..... and that's not saying much.
By this logic Original Everquest is the Greatest MMO around. Servers have been up and running longer then any other MMO and they are getting ready to release what , their 22 expansion. Must make them the king ... ALL HALE EQ !
UO, best mmorpg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSk32gbeK5E
I couldn't get into UO back in the day. Just too crappy of graphics for my liking and for the time. But it seemed fun. And to tell you the truth i thought EQ was a pretty stupid waste of time also ... until the PvP servers went live.
nah .. "fun" is subjective.
And
... newbie being killed where they spawn is not fun for me ...
... clicking stones 10000 times to up mining skills is not fun for me ....
.... UO combat is not fun for me ....
I won't play that game even if the graphics is improved.
This is not string theory.
Everyone wants to be the hunter, no one wants to be the prey.
Only reason it existed was due to the limited choices available.
Now, not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmm, that's not how I remember it but then again I didn't play much after a certain point so I can only defer to your experience in the later game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There's really 2 kinds of PvP:
1) optional PvP, like DAOC or ESO. If you want to, you can level in the PvP zones, and can be jumped and killed at any time. That should satisfy the thrill seekers. These games are popular, and allow the player to do PvP or engage in some other safe activities. The choice is up to the player.
2) forced PvP. These games force PvP on the player, whether he wants to fight or not. They are not very popular, and none of these types of games has broken into the top tier of gaming.
Many people enjoy PvP, as DAOC showed. It is very popular, the idea of building up your character, getting into the PvP zone, and capturing a keep or a relic. And you can just play all the time in the PvP zones if you want to be attackable all the time.
But that doesn't seem to satisfy a segment of gamers; they want to always be able to attack unwilling players, and won't be satisfied with consensual PvP. And many of these players turn out to be griefers, like camping the respawn spot and killing noobs as they try to respawn, over and over.
So yes, there is plenty of PK'ing, unless you mean PK'ing is only PvP against unwilling players. And of course, that is not very popular.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
See .. here is the good news. It takes 2 to pvp. "Unwilling" players, by definition, won't play such a game.
go play eve(and jump to zero security zones) or planet side 2 or any of the other pvp centric games thn n yull get plenty of pk opportunities if thts what yu seek
or just go play on a pvp server in games w optional pvp and just set yur pvp flag to always b on wouldnt tht help yu get yur thrills op?
or a 2nd much harder choice make a game yurself if yu cant find any with a pk system yu want
Would have to be EVE. Planetside 2 is not really about griefing people. You can be spawn room camped, but u just spawn somewhere else and grab a tank or aircraft. There is also no loss in PS2, and no character to set back.
EVE has the sort of pediacidal thrill that griefers need in order to reach climax. You can invest tons of time in a non-combat activity and the douche ray will burn you down as soon as you feel like it. It's perfect. I don't know why the hardcore crowd want a different game.
This guy has only made nine posts so he is clearly a newbie to our forums. give him a break. you have like 140000 posts so you have probably read and ran off any thread makers in regards to pvp. Well, guess what people like pvp and want a pure form of pvp. he's posting about how he likes it. ok? that's how these things get put into games. people talk about what they like developers get the point and put it in. so for example like you said, people complain about pvp, and the more they do so developers take it out. Well guess what???? people say they like it and the more they do, developers might put it in their games.
its like a tug of war of complaining/voicing out/speaking about what you like and don't like. Yes carebears make up the majority of the mainstream or are the loudest voices, but pvp'ers can post they want a xyz style of game with xyz pvp rulesets without you trying to "stamp out the flames" of their voice. get it?
The really amusing part of this guys admonishment is that he represents the vocal majority that have cried and bitched so much to get developers to remove any features that actually challenge or punish gamers that all new mainstream MMORPGs have started looking like this. . .
Yet at the same time its these very same vocal majority that come here and endlessly trash every new AAA MMORPG because its generic, bland, cookie cutter, and boring. And again, looks exactly like this. . .
Congratulations friends and babies. You've made developers decide that trying anything new or innovative is too risky so they'll just keep giving us this watered down horse shit time and time again. You casuals have won. ENJOY IT.
Because playing just a single game over and over is boring to many?
And yet as pointed out, the prospect of another MMO with real PKing is too unprofitable for most companies to bother making another game with it, let alone invest a lot into making sure its' high quality.
I guess that means that once the (relatively small amount of) people who want real open world ganking with their victims occurring actual losses tire of Eve, they're screwed when it comes to new options. Given that many of them seem to have personalities where they call others "snot-nosed brats" and other worser explicitives, I can't say I have much sympathy for their plight.
As opposed to the other side of the coin that continually calls people who enjoy open world pvp, neckbeards, troglodytes and cellar dwellers, I'm not really sure I follow your logic.
nah .. just call them niche.
And funnily enough we both actually agree on that description. However seeing how many new AAA MMOs have launched in the past few years with much adoration and fanfare, only to then fall flat on their face as players see it's just more of the same old shit, I'm betting that in a few years most MMO gamers as we know them are going to be called niche players. And its going to be the player base themselves that are at fault.
Please understand I'm not saying that adding full loot hardcore pvp to all, or even any, new MMORPG will make them better or popular. What I'm saying is the death of open world pvp is just part of the disturbing trend of the industries continuous trimming of MMO features, and just sticking with the safe and boring choices.
So the majority didn't like some features so game companies took them out. I'm fine with that. What I am not ok with is that they then never bothered to replace them with anything else. So every new MMO just seems to be the same dull tiny room with different wallpaper.
wait .. what are you talking about? There are *many* new MMOs (in the past couple of years) that make it big. MOBAs, World of Tanks, Destiny.
And yes, the industry is trimming down on MMO features (or shall we say classical MMO features) because they are not that popular (like open world this or that ...) But what do you mean they never bothered to replace them with anything else?
They created a new sub-genre MOBA, they created focused pvp instanced games (like World of Tanks), pve games (like PoE or Marvel Heroes), and lots of other alternatives. If you are complaining that the new crops of MMOs are very much unlike the old ones .. then sure, it is true. They are replacing MMOs with other types of online games (which i suspect since all the MMO websites are broadening the term MMO, all of them will be categorized as MMO at some point).
Multiple genre including non- rpg.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yeah! Companies like to make less money because this guy says so.....
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
shouldn't game players be realistic and understand that companies are in it for the money?