Originally posted by Distopia I don't think the game failed, don't think the game is awful, nor do I see it as something I wouldn't play. Yet you lumped me in with this category of poster yesterday... Simply because I shared a thought on FFA PVP.
All you got pulled up on yesterday was for talking down about parts of the game that you have no personal first hand experience of.
I will leave it to you if you think what I say above includes you. I make no personal attacks on individuals in it and was making general observations.
Look, the simple truth is that if people just spoke about the parts of the game that they actually knew about, and stuck to questions rather than statements about the rest, then there wouldn't be a fraction of the bad feeling and those views and questions would be respected.
The problem mainly comes from those that have read 'what some guy said that read what another guy posted that only himself played to L20' expressing rock solid 'facts'.
It just gets tiresome explaining to those stuck in that kind of self reinforcing echo chamber.
If someone was to say, "well I played to L16 and found that part of the game to not be my thing because the quests put me off", I would consider that valid enough and the basis for a decent reasonable conversation. It's the guys that say, "I played to L16 and here is my expert opinion on every facet of the rest of the game that I never even saw" that cause the issues.
I honestly don't mind people not liking this game, I have acknowledged again and again that it isn't for everyone and it's a niche title and that's fine, I have agreed it had a rotten launch. What I don't like is parroted untruths being put out there, because that just creates white noise and makes it impossible to have an actual conversation.
I can understand feeling bad for them because they get blamed for some things which are really in XLs lane, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
As far as feeling bad for them because they bet on a bad investment, there is no data to suggest that it was a poor investment. No data to suggest it was a good investment either.
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Trion is on track to making back it's investment. I have a couple of reasons for this. The first is that there was a very large surge at the games beginning. Often, games receive a large initial cash flow from this. The second is that the servers still seem pretty full. I play on two different servers and they seem robust. Of course, all the other servers could be empty, and I happened to get lucky, but I doubt it. If I'm correct, then there is a good chance they are making some decent coin. Third, I got a feeling. I comes from the fact that there are still people writing the 'I'm quitting' threads. Generally people don't do this to games that are no longer contenders. The third point really goes to the second point.
Like I said, it's a guess, and I could be way off. But I figure, my guess is as good as anyone elses... hold... probably better
Bottom line, is that feeling sorry for Trion being blamed for somethings that should belong to XL, agree. Feeling sorry for profit, hold that thought until actual data gets out.
Originally posted by Distopia I don't think the game failed, don't think the game is awful, nor do I see it as something I wouldn't play. Yet you lumped me in with this category of poster yesterday... Simply because I shared a thought on FFA PVP.
All you got pulled up on yesterday was for talking down about parts of the game that you have no personal first hand experience of.
I will leave it to you if you think what I say above includes you. I make no personal attacks on individuals in it and was making general observations.
Look, the simple truth is that if people just spoke about the parts of the game that they actually knew about, and stuck to questions over rock solid 'opinions' about the rest, then there wouldn't be a fraction of the bad feeling and those views and questions would be respected.
The problem mainly comes from those that have read 'what some guy said that read what another guy posted that only himself played to L20' expressing rock solid 'facts'.
It just gets tiresome explaining to those stuck in that kind of self reinforcing echo chamber.
If someone was to say, "well I played to L16 and found that part of the game to not be my thing because the quests put me off", I would consider that valid enough and the basis for a decent reasonable conversation. It's the guys that say, "I played to L16 and here is my expert opinion on every facet of the rest of the game that I never even saw" that cause the issues.
I honestly don't mind people not liking this game, I have acknowledged again and again that it isn't for everyone and it's a niche title and that's fine, I have agreed it had a rotten launch. What I don't like is parroted untruths being put out there, because that just creates white noise and makes it impossible to have an actual conversation.
"TBH, your 'insight' into this is irrelevant. You haven't any first hand experience of how this works in game and because of that seem to just be parroting negativity and trying to make it personal and about me. You just seem to jump with glee to support any criticism that's posted. "
That's what I was referring to, mainly the last sentence. WHat I support is people sharing how they feel about something, good or bad. You made it sound as though I'm running around agreeing with every single gripe made toward the game. I am not, just because I support someones position doesn't mean I agree with it, I just feel they do no wrong by sharing it in a lot of cases (but not all).
Anyway fair enough, I was just pointing out that not everyone who writes a thought or observation is doing it to be a negative Nancy, I certainly don't, as I have nothing against any game, company or model, I will play most of what's out there in the RPG space as long as something about it appeals to me. I'm not one of those "bitter vets" that hate on everything.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Distopia I'm not one of those "bitter vets" that hate on everything.
Very well, I accept that in the spirit of putting this to bed and not carrying on a running war. I don't take anything back, but I do think it's a good idea to draw a line under these things and look for a better way.
Trion showed their shadyness long before AA's release and i felt bad for the company Trion formerly was when they went into desperation mode with Rift, i.e. selling 12 month subs two weeks before going F2P and other at least "questionable" moves to dodge the wrecking ball.
With Defiance they showed their new attitude and AA just further confirmed that.
If it took you until AA's launch to feel sorry for them, you have missed that Trion's transformation happened long before that. My guess is that they got a strong taste of bankruptcy around the release of the Storm Legion addon that made them go "cash in on promises first, delivery later...if ever".
i do believe that if Trion had control over AA the game would have been at least better monetized through a similar system like Rift does. Not even keeping my second Trion account logged in gaining LP with my alt while playing with my main account was worth it. Besides the boring questing to level up i think the way LP is implemented is the worst part of the game. If Trion had any control over AA they could have fixed that for the West. Designing the game to send people to the cash shop to progress is a free ticket to failure. And there is no incentive to even spend a dime.
Originally posted by Yamota Is there any data indicating that this game flopped in Asia?
It depends on what you mean by flopped. Some only consider it f the game shuts down. The game did go F2P in South Korea and Japan as well as having a large server merge. Russia isn't doing all that great either. I've posted the links before, I could post them again if you want the specifics.
The reality of the situation is that failing is equated to underachieving. And in that respect, very few MMOs *don't* fail. IMHO, the best way to show failure is for an MMO to peak on Day 1. Games like AOC, TESO, Wildstar - and yes, Archeage - and many others who will never have more player than they had on the first day... that's a failure of an MMO.
Games that have shown steady growth over the average life expectancy of an MMO (3-4 years), like EVE and WoW, are both examples of successes in their own relative ways.
For one thing that's your opinion not "the reality". Also, unless the company is giving you access to their private financial data I don't see how you can make an informed judgement. When people say this game "failed" it usually just mean that they didn't like it and it's not WoW (because even among people who dislike WoW no one could call it a failure with a straight face).
The only way to know for 100% sure that an MMO failed is when the servers shut down unless the company comes out and says it failed to live up to expectations which they never do for PR reasons.
I kind of feel sad for Trion, since most of the problems with this game isnt really their fault. They Published the game of course but it was a failure before coming to the West.
I bealive the messy launch is Trions fault. All the problems related to:
-Low numbers of servers when game open when they were allready packed in headstart.
-Patron status problem.
- Not attacking gold spammers and bots right from day 1, like they are doing or trying atm.
launch could be way better and i beliave its Trions fault
it had a lot of hype which is likely why Trion jumped on the bandwagon to support the game. But the game flopped in the east hard, and Trion was pretty much forced to try to nickle/dime as much of their invested money back out the Western Release before the Western version flops.
Im sure Trion allready made money enouph to call a good deal atm.
I know I may be coming off as defending them, but thats only because I am looking at the current situation from all sides here.
Lets be honest here, ArcheAge was one of the biggest hyped up MMOs for a few years now in the West that is. Even though it was a East built MMO.
Most of the Development for ArcheAge is in the Eastern Developer's hand. This isnt Rift people. Trion had control of Rift. Not so much here.
like I said before, it just seems like Trion is trying to get their bad investment back before the Western Version flops like the Eastern counterpart has already done.
I believe the game in the west could have been a lot better if Trion had full control, and more financial support and stability from the ArcheAge community in the West, that they would feel comfortable investing deeper into the game and making bigger changes to separate the Western and Eastern version of ArcheAge's development into different directions.
again, lets be honest with ourselves for once. Western MMO gamers and Eastern MMO gamers have different taste. No point sticking to one Development over all versions. Agreed?
Maybe to payment models and cash shopt management but never ever change ruleset core of the game. Game A should remain Game A were ever the game is publish.
Feel sad for them? Why? Is it because they are fleecing idiots without the development costs?
I don't even feel sorry for XL; they designed a game that was P2W from the ground up and half-assed every other aspect. In fact, the most brilliant thing about the game is its engine... but neither Trion nor XL developed it.
It's an exploitation of the elitists that constitute a non-empty subset of the whales and there's nothing wrong about it.
The only thing I do feel sorry for is the "failure" of Defiance, Rift etc. that didn't enjoy the success they deserved in my opinion, but Trion still did well with both (they had to lay off many for defiance, but that's how managing operating costs is done).
Feeling sorry for a company is stupid. Feel sorry for the people who earn a living trying to make the company profitable by doing the actual development.
They tricked thousands out of there money......All the big money for mmos is made up front, most all of them don't give a rats butt about retention like many of you think.
Trion took part in this scam, they knew what they were doing from the start, and it worked for them. Now will see others release following the same path.
I never even tried Archeage. As I got more and more information on the game it sounded like a mediocre MMO that would never live up to the hype.
The hype for Archeage in the west started early, it was voted top 3 here from the start, which is why I created an account on Archeagesource back in 2011 just to know what kind of game it was. Even though noone really knew much about the game it was clear that lots of people would play it. Trion bought the rights to publish the game because of the hype, in what should be viewed as a business decision.
Even though AA quickly ended up f2p in korea the hype kept growing for the game. What had been described as a sandpark was suddenly described as a sandbox and the game became one to play. Lots of people bought alpha and beta pass for the game just to try it and for some reason the hype kept growing. At release all servers are full and people start paying for subscriptions just to enter the game quicker.
Trion didn't do that much of promotion, they did some streaming, and promoted it at different gaming conventions like any other publisher. What's extraordinary is the hype created by the community. If it hadn't been for the community the game would most likely have flopped.
Archeage is a massive success for Trion as a publisher.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
They knew what they were buying. They also had their model well thought out a long time ago. This game is a cash flow for Trion, nothing more. There's no passion, no commitment and certainly no attempt to support the game from a development point of view.
It's why they ripped people off for so long with their "closed beta" and continuous "alpha" server.
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All you got pulled up on yesterday was for talking down about parts of the game that you have no personal first hand experience of.
I will leave it to you if you think what I say above includes you. I make no personal attacks on individuals in it and was making general observations.
Look, the simple truth is that if people just spoke about the parts of the game that they actually knew about, and stuck to questions rather than statements about the rest, then there wouldn't be a fraction of the bad feeling and those views and questions would be respected.
The problem mainly comes from those that have read 'what some guy said that read what another guy posted that only himself played to L20' expressing rock solid 'facts'.
It just gets tiresome explaining to those stuck in that kind of self reinforcing echo chamber.
If someone was to say, "well I played to L16 and found that part of the game to not be my thing because the quests put me off", I would consider that valid enough and the basis for a decent reasonable conversation. It's the guys that say, "I played to L16 and here is my expert opinion on every facet of the rest of the game that I never even saw" that cause the issues.
I honestly don't mind people not liking this game, I have acknowledged again and again that it isn't for everyone and it's a niche title and that's fine, I have agreed it had a rotten launch. What I don't like is parroted untruths being put out there, because that just creates white noise and makes it impossible to have an actual conversation.
I can understand feeling bad for them because they get blamed for some things which are really in XLs lane, but that's about as far as it goes for me.
As far as feeling bad for them because they bet on a bad investment, there is no data to suggest that it was a poor investment. No data to suggest it was a good investment either.
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Trion is on track to making back it's investment. I have a couple of reasons for this. The first is that there was a very large surge at the games beginning. Often, games receive a large initial cash flow from this. The second is that the servers still seem pretty full. I play on two different servers and they seem robust. Of course, all the other servers could be empty, and I happened to get lucky, but I doubt it. If I'm correct, then there is a good chance they are making some decent coin. Third, I got a feeling. I comes from the fact that there are still people writing the 'I'm quitting' threads. Generally people don't do this to games that are no longer contenders. The third point really goes to the second point.
Like I said, it's a guess, and I could be way off. But I figure, my guess is as good as anyone elses... hold... probably better
Bottom line, is that feeling sorry for Trion being blamed for somethings that should belong to XL, agree. Feeling sorry for profit, hold that thought until actual data gets out.
I self identify as a monkey.
"TBH, your 'insight' into this is irrelevant. You haven't any first hand experience of how this works in game and because of that seem to just be parroting negativity and trying to make it personal and about me. You just seem to jump with glee to support any criticism that's posted. "
That's what I was referring to, mainly the last sentence. WHat I support is people sharing how they feel about something, good or bad. You made it sound as though I'm running around agreeing with every single gripe made toward the game. I am not, just because I support someones position doesn't mean I agree with it, I just feel they do no wrong by sharing it in a lot of cases (but not all).
Anyway fair enough, I was just pointing out that not everyone who writes a thought or observation is doing it to be a negative Nancy, I certainly don't, as I have nothing against any game, company or model, I will play most of what's out there in the RPG space as long as something about it appeals to me. I'm not one of those "bitter vets" that hate on everything.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Very well, I accept that in the spirit of putting this to bed and not carrying on a running war. I don't take anything back, but I do think it's a good idea to draw a line under these things and look for a better way.
Trion showed their shadyness long before AA's release and i felt bad for the company Trion formerly was when they went into desperation mode with Rift, i.e. selling 12 month subs two weeks before going F2P and other at least "questionable" moves to dodge the wrecking ball.
With Defiance they showed their new attitude and AA just further confirmed that.
If it took you until AA's launch to feel sorry for them, you have missed that Trion's transformation happened long before that. My guess is that they got a strong taste of bankruptcy around the release of the Storm Legion addon that made them go "cash in on promises first, delivery later...if ever".
It depends on what you mean by flopped. Some only consider it f the game shuts down. The game did go F2P in South Korea and Japan as well as having a large server merge. Russia isn't doing all that great either. I've posted the links before, I could post them again if you want the specifics.
For one thing that's your opinion not "the reality". Also, unless the company is giving you access to their private financial data I don't see how you can make an informed judgement. When people say this game "failed" it usually just mean that they didn't like it and it's not WoW (because even among people who dislike WoW no one could call it a failure with a straight face).
The only way to know for 100% sure that an MMO failed is when the servers shut down unless the company comes out and says it failed to live up to expectations which they never do for PR reasons.
I bealive the messy launch is Trions fault. All the problems related to:
-Low numbers of servers when game open when they were allready packed in headstart.
-Patron status problem.
- Not attacking gold spammers and bots right from day 1, like they are doing or trying atm.
launch could be way better and i beliave its Trions fault
Im sure Trion allready made money enouph to call a good deal atm.
Maybe to payment models and cash shopt management but never ever change ruleset core of the game. Game A should remain Game A were ever the game is publish.
Feel sad for them? Why? Is it because they are fleecing idiots without the development costs?
I don't even feel sorry for XL; they designed a game that was P2W from the ground up and half-assed every other aspect. In fact, the most brilliant thing about the game is its engine... but neither Trion nor XL developed it.
It's an exploitation of the elitists that constitute a non-empty subset of the whales and there's nothing wrong about it.
The only thing I do feel sorry for is the "failure" of Defiance, Rift etc. that didn't enjoy the success they deserved in my opinion, but Trion still did well with both (they had to lay off many for defiance, but that's how managing operating costs is done).
Feeling sorry for a company is stupid. Feel sorry for the people who earn a living trying to make the company profitable by doing the actual development.
Feel sad for them ?
They tricked thousands out of there money......All the big money for mmos is made up front, most all of them don't give a rats butt about retention like many of you think.
Trion took part in this scam, they knew what they were doing from the start, and it worked for them. Now will see others release following the same path.
Score :
Trion 1
Population 0
I never even tried Archeage. As I got more and more information on the game it sounded like a mediocre MMO that would never live up to the hype.
The hype for Archeage in the west started early, it was voted top 3 here from the start, which is why I created an account on Archeagesource back in 2011 just to know what kind of game it was. Even though noone really knew much about the game it was clear that lots of people would play it. Trion bought the rights to publish the game because of the hype, in what should be viewed as a business decision.
Even though AA quickly ended up f2p in korea the hype kept growing for the game. What had been described as a sandpark was suddenly described as a sandbox and the game became one to play. Lots of people bought alpha and beta pass for the game just to try it and for some reason the hype kept growing. At release all servers are full and people start paying for subscriptions just to enter the game quicker.
Trion didn't do that much of promotion, they did some streaming, and promoted it at different gaming conventions like any other publisher. What's extraordinary is the hype created by the community. If it hadn't been for the community the game would most likely have flopped.
Archeage is a massive success for Trion as a publisher.
They knew what they were buying. They also had their model well thought out a long time ago. This game is a cash flow for Trion, nothing more. There's no passion, no commitment and certainly no attempt to support the game from a development point of view.
It's why they ripped people off for so long with their "closed beta" and continuous "alpha" server.