Like I have said in my first post I support neither of the sides. I think it was very stupid to start all this with the drawings. It wasn't correct to print those drawings. It should have been done in a more friendly way. It's also stupid to react like that. It's one of the bad sides of Islam, the extreme side that comes out now. I in no way support actions like that. And then we have the people with comments like you, that keep on fueling the fire.
I'm not a muslim. I'm not religious at all. The fact is that I despise religion. I have said it time after time, that religion is bad for us. The world keeps on showing me day after day that I'm right. But I also believe in the equal values of humans, and I want people to show each other repect. That is why comments like yours piss me of really bad. I doesn't piss me off that you posted it, it's more the fact that I know there are millions/billions of people out there that think the same and say the same. You keep on blaming everything on the others, but never look back and think about if these comments are that what makes it go like this.
There are ceratin things and thoughts that people need to leave behind, before this world can move on.
I will give some background information on this before I weigh in with my opinion. Muslims believe that depicting pictures of important religious figures is bad because it encourages idolatry. Mohammed is only a prophet to them, not the son of God or anything along those lines. To direct prayer to a prophet is blasphemous to them. For an example closer to home you can see this when many Protestants look at Catholics or Orthodox Christians. Both groups have a lot of Saints and Angels, and many Orthodox sects are big into icons (depictions of Jesus or the Saints). An outsider might assume the worshipper is actually directing worship to these objects/individuals, when in the practice of the religion they are merely asking for their help in praying to God. But you see how it's easy to get into conflict over the issue, and there's alot of Christians who believe Catholics and Orthodox Christians are idolators. Muslims tend to be very wary of the idolatry issue. So, that's where alot of the offense is coming from.
Now to my opinion. Has the Danish government at any point come out and said it supports fully these cartoons and really enjoys insulting Muslims? If they have, I missed it. Demonizing an entire race of people because a couple of them decided to draw and publish a cartoon you find horribly offensive is just as absurd as declaring every Muslim is a terrorist. This entire episode is a grand display of hypocrisy, on both sides.
I understand the anger some of our Danish members must feel, but remain level-headed and remember your dignity. You can't think of yourself as better than an angry mob if you lower yourself to its tactics. On the Muslim side, they are easily offended when their faith is concerned, but there are alot of things in the world that offend people. Muslims believe that Jesus was only a prophet and that to worship a prophet as a God, as the son of God, is blasphemous. Are Christians around the world to stop practising their faith because it offends someone? The issue is absurd, if a few Danish people are horribly offensive to your faith, it is their sin, not yours.
I would not personally endorse or draw such a cartoon, nor would I draw one insulting to other faiths for no apparent reason. It's not a matter of my being compassionate and understanding, I'm just very polite most of the time. I'll go on record as saying that I intensly distrust Islam, not because of the actions of fanatics in the modern age, but because I am familiar with the life and works of Mohammed. That is another debate. Given this distrust, I'm still polite, I do not go parading down the streets calling Muslims blasphemers, I do not attempt to kill someone who wantonly breaks the rules of faith I live my life by. If Muslim nations want Western nations to respect their faith and leave them to their own affairs, then they should respect the beliefs of Western nations and leave them alone to their affairs as well. This entire episode reminds me of a time, not so long ago, when Jerry Falwell (not a man I respect by any means) called Mohammed a violent man of war. That comment triggered a riot in India that killed more than ten people.
And now another important issue. Where the hell do these rioters get all the flags to burn? I figure the radicals have U.S. flags stockpiled somewhere, but where did they get a Danish flag on such short notice? I don't think I could find one in a 24 hour period if I tried!
Your comment just pisses me more of.(to phonix) I've already said I didn't want this situation. I didn't want those drawings to be posted. But nothing to do about that now. I've taken my side.
It's not the "bad" side of Islam. We see it everyday. Holy war, killings and massacre, torture and shit. Because of drawings, we don't know how bad some christians in Beirut have been injured, or perhaps even murdered. They've set the consulate and the ambassy ablaze. They are threatning danes. They are encouraging the militia and the mob to attack danish military forces in Basra.
By not taking a stance or a side, you can't do anything about it. Then you must not consider it a problem. It's people like you who makes the world sit still while people are being hurt, because of some goddamn drawings.
You say I don't recognize our errors, but that's simply stupid. I do recognize that a newspaper printet images which shouldn't have been printet. I also do recognize that the newspaper is in it's full right to do so, but still says "I'm sorry" to islamic nations. I also recognize that islamic nation thinks that the whole of the western part of the world must say I'm sorry in a islamic way. Again recognize that nothing is good enough for them, and now they start hurting us and destroy our property.
It really makes my blood boil, when people like you don't recognize this a problem which needs be solved. People who doesn't take a stance against this actions indirectly support the enemy, by not supporting those who attempt to solve this problem. It also really makes my blood boil when you somehow indicate that it's my fault that the middle east is rising, and that people like me are the ones responsible for them acting all enraged. Obviously you don't know jack about the situation. Why were the consulate in Syrien destroyed? Because some ISLAMIC priest send sms and email about the Koran being torched in Copenhagen(the capital of denmark), which were, confirmed by the police, not true. It's their own people encouraging each other to attack our property and our people. Not us.
Have they only acted in a more reasonable way, we wouldn't have to see buildings being destroyed, and people being harmed.
I don't say that you said that you did want the pictures posted. I just don't see how taking a side, and the screaming that the other side should be carpet bombed with Napalm, can possibly help more. That is what I'm talking about. There are people like that on both sides, and many of them make it to the media. No wonder the extremists on both sides manage to get people to follow their orders. Comments like your make angry people even more angry, and the actions of these angry people make you come with worse comments wich again makes them even more angry. If we keep on doing this it will never stop. Even if the other side does stupid and bad things, doesn't make it acceptable for you to come with offending comments. If that is the case, what makes "us" better than the "evil" people.
The actions by the extremists in the middleeast, I see on the news everyday. And I find them very bad. So far we have avoided human injuries, atleast in Norway. Though a muslim man was stabbed with a knife by some people last night.
Yeah you got a point. It's also in my rage I write these things. It's because reading about it pisses me off. I don't really mean that the muslims should be carpet bombed, nor that I wouldn't care if somebody commited genocide on them. Besides, I'm not demostrating against them. And people who are demostrating against them in the very same matter as they do are arrested(We've seen that in denmark already)
My only point is, that it's themselves that have geared em up to this level of rage.
Originally posted by Darkchronic. Where can I actually see these pictures? Because I have no idea what to think about this right now.
This site has drawings and paintings with mohammed that is 700 years old and also the 12 cartoonish drawings from Jyllands Posten. They also show the 3 drawings that the danish Imams brought to egypt saying that Jyllands posten published which they never did. The 12 drawings is far down the page.
This one is one of those that various Imams and muftis said is blasfemic. http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6337/2188/1600/kw.2.jpg Blasfemic? Have you heard about Christian suicide bombers? I haven't so there is some truth to that picture.
Go make a T Shirt out of it, how far do think youll get down the street before someone who doesnt see it as funny attacks you ?
Is it worth it ?
Some of you just need to picture a set of scales in your mind. On one side you have the "fun" of making a joke about something others take VERY seriously. On the other you have the certain knowledge that your "fun" will result in something bad happening, maybe ven as bad as you getting hurt or killed.
Is it worth it ?
How about instead. Saying to yourself. I am above making fun of the beliefs of others. I am able to have a giggle at a cartoon that someone else has done, but beyond that Id rather leave this whole thing to others who have genuine concerns, beliefs and vested interests in the situation.
I promise you, you will feel a better, bigger person for rising above it.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
[quote]Originally posted by Phoenixs [b]I think it was outrageous of the newspapers to post the pictures. Don't come with the shit of "freedom of speech" and all that. [/quote]
all what? it is a freedom of speech issue and most of the civilized world knows and recognizes this. a few select of theocratic crazies don't.
Even if I have the right to say what I want, I don't go around insulting everyone, or scream racistic messages in the streets. Everyone knows that it's the worst thing for a muslim.
so what...screw them. they're adults too, if they can't take a little satire, that's their problem.
The only purpose of these pictures is a insult. And the pictures aren't even "proper" pictures, it's cartoons.
who the hell are you to make this judgement? those pics say exactley what the artist who drew them intended them to say. it's called art, it's called satire, look it up.
Some website in USA have even started to post pictures where Muhammed is pictured as a pedofile. If you want to take the debate around the muslims and their way of life, you can atleast do it in a proper and repectful way.
that would be nice...but certainly not necessary.
How would the christians react if New York Times printed a picture of Jesus raping Mariah on the frontpage?
if they reacted by rioting and burning shit, they'd be in the wrong. if they reacted by protesting, more power to them.
It's not right that the muslims now want to hurt Norwegian and Danish people. Both Norway and Denmark had to withdraw people from the middleeast. A Norwegian council was also closed today when 2 extreme groups threathened to even it with the ground.
It has been done bad things on both sides. And I will not support any of the sides.
So Freedom of speech is only for people who support violence, disrespect and no common sence? Or wait, do I only deserve freedom of speech if I agree with you?
Originally posted by Phoenixs So Freedom of speech is only for people who support violence, disrespect and no common sence?
c'mon, knock off the strawmen. who would take this position? (except for maybe an iranian...j/k of course)
Or wait, do I only deserve freedom of speech if I agree with you?
again, whether you agree with me or not is irrelevent. The only issue i had is when you stated:
It has been done bad things on both sides. And I will not support any of the sides.
If you honestly think that what that artist did (drawing satire pics) is just as bad as rioting and burning shit then I stand by my comment. If I've misunderstood what you meant then I apologize...please clarify.
I think the method used to "defend" freedom of speech in this case was wrong. I think it should have been done in a more respectful and friendly way. If we in the west are the defenders of freedom, respect and equality, this debate could be taken based on those values. The pictures itself are not terrible. But the decition to post them was not right. I believe you should show other people respect, even in matters like this. Even if the other part responds with extreme measures. This is what for me defines good values. And since we are the "good" side, we should show that we are exactly that. No mather how low the others sink. Not much to say about the muslims to say here. Reactions like that belong to the medival ages.
So I don't support that the pictures where posted, and I neither support the reactions from the muslims. The world is not a 2 dimensional place, it's not only black & white and good & evil. It's possible to take a position outside the 2 fighting parties. A position based on my values and beliefs.
Comments
Like I have said in my first post I support neither of the sides. I think it was very stupid to start all this with the drawings. It wasn't correct to print those drawings. It should have been done in a more friendly way.
It's also stupid to react like that. It's one of the bad sides of Islam, the extreme side that comes out now. I in no way support actions like that. And then we have the people with comments like you, that keep on fueling the fire.
I'm not a muslim. I'm not religious at all. The fact is that I despise religion. I have said it time after time, that religion is bad for us. The world keeps on showing me day after day that I'm right. But I also believe in the equal values of humans, and I want people to show each other repect. That is why comments like yours piss me of really bad. I doesn't piss me off that you posted it, it's more the fact that I know there are millions/billions of people out there that think the same and say the same. You keep on blaming everything on the others, but never look back and think about if these comments are that what makes it go like this.
There are ceratin things and thoughts that people need to leave behind, before this world can move on.
Now to my opinion. Has the Danish government at any point come out and said it supports fully these cartoons and really enjoys insulting Muslims? If they have, I missed it. Demonizing an entire race of people because a couple of them decided to draw and publish a cartoon you find horribly offensive is just as absurd as declaring every Muslim is a terrorist. This entire episode is a grand display of hypocrisy, on both sides.
I understand the anger some of our Danish members must feel, but remain level-headed and remember your dignity. You can't think of yourself as better than an angry mob if you lower yourself to its tactics. On the Muslim side, they are easily offended when their faith is concerned, but there are alot of things in the world that offend people. Muslims believe that Jesus was only a prophet and that to worship a prophet as a God, as the son of God, is blasphemous. Are Christians around the world to stop practising their faith because it offends someone? The issue is absurd, if a few Danish people are horribly offensive to your faith, it is their sin, not yours.
I would not personally endorse or draw such a cartoon, nor would I draw one insulting to other faiths for no apparent reason. It's not a matter of my being compassionate and understanding, I'm just very polite most of the time. I'll go on record as saying that I intensly distrust Islam, not because of the actions of fanatics in the modern age, but because I am familiar with the life and works of Mohammed. That is another debate. Given this distrust, I'm still polite, I do not go parading down the streets calling Muslims blasphemers, I do not attempt to kill someone who wantonly breaks the rules of faith I live my life by. If Muslim nations want Western nations to respect their faith and leave them to their own affairs, then they should respect the beliefs of Western nations and leave them alone to their affairs as well. This entire episode reminds me of a time, not so long ago, when Jerry Falwell (not a man I respect by any means) called Mohammed a violent man of war. That comment triggered a riot in India that killed more than ten people.
And now another important issue. Where the hell do these rioters get all the flags to burn? I figure the radicals have U.S. flags stockpiled somewhere, but where did they get a Danish flag on such short notice? I don't think I could find one in a 24 hour period if I tried!
Your comment just pisses me more of.(to phonix) I've already said I didn't want this situation. I didn't want those drawings to be posted. But nothing to do about that now. I've taken my side.
It's not the "bad" side of Islam. We see it everyday. Holy war, killings and massacre, torture and shit. Because of drawings, we don't know how bad some christians in Beirut have been injured, or perhaps even murdered. They've set the consulate and the ambassy ablaze. They are threatning danes. They are encouraging the militia and the mob to attack danish military forces in Basra.
By not taking a stance or a side, you can't do anything about it. Then you must not consider it a problem. It's people like you who makes the world sit still while people are being hurt, because of some goddamn drawings.
You say I don't recognize our errors, but that's simply stupid. I do recognize that a newspaper printet images which shouldn't have been printet. I also do recognize that the newspaper is in it's full right to do so, but still says "I'm sorry" to islamic nations. I also recognize that islamic nation thinks that the whole of the western part of the world must say I'm sorry in a islamic way. Again recognize that nothing is good enough for them, and now they start hurting us and destroy our property.
It really makes my blood boil, when people like you don't recognize this a problem which needs be solved. People who doesn't take a stance against this actions indirectly support the enemy, by not supporting those who attempt to solve this problem. It also really makes my blood boil when you somehow indicate that it's my fault that the middle east is rising, and that people like me are the ones responsible for them acting all enraged. Obviously you don't know jack about the situation. Why were the consulate in Syrien destroyed? Because some ISLAMIC priest send sms and email about the Koran being torched in Copenhagen(the capital of denmark), which were, confirmed by the police, not true. It's their own people encouraging each other to attack our property and our people. Not us.
Have they only acted in a more reasonable way, we wouldn't have to see buildings being destroyed, and people being harmed.
--------------------------------------------
sry double post.
--------------------------------------------
I don't say that you said that you did want the pictures posted. I just don't see how taking a side, and the screaming that the other side should be carpet bombed with Napalm, can possibly help more. That is what I'm talking about. There are people like that on both sides, and many of them make it to the media. No wonder the extremists on both sides manage to get people to follow their orders. Comments like your make angry people even more angry, and the actions of these angry people make you come with worse comments wich again makes them even more angry. If we keep on doing this it will never stop. Even if the other side does stupid and bad things, doesn't make it acceptable for you to come with offending comments.
If that is the case, what makes "us" better than the "evil" people.
The actions by the extremists in the middleeast, I see on the news everyday. And I find them very bad. So far we have avoided human injuries, atleast in Norway. Though a muslim man was stabbed with a knife by some people last night.
Yeah you got a point. It's also in my rage I write these things. It's because reading about it pisses me off. I don't really mean that the muslims should be carpet bombed, nor that I wouldn't care if somebody commited genocide on them. Besides, I'm not demostrating against them. And people who are demostrating against them in the very same matter as they do are arrested(We've seen that in denmark already)
My only point is, that it's themselves that have geared em up to this level of rage.
--------------------------------------------
This site has drawings and paintings with mohammed that is 700 years old and also the 12 cartoonish drawings from Jyllands Posten.
They also show the 3 drawings that the danish Imams brought to egypt saying that Jyllands posten published which they never did.
The 12 drawings is far down the page.
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
Some of them are fun,some of them are not.
This one i find very funny showing suicidebombers at the gates of heaven.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6337/2188/1600/Muhammed_Jens_Julius_Hansen_Jyllands-Posten_Cartoons.0.jpg
This one is one of those that various Imams and muftis said is blasfemic.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6337/2188/1600/kw.2.jpg
Blasfemic? Have you heard about Christian suicide bombers?
I haven't so there is some truth to that picture.
This one has not been printed in any danish paper,but i find it so funny,that i consider reprinting it on a T-shirt
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/2006-01-26.jpg
___________________________________________
Well that last cartoon is funny as hell!!
TO ME!!
And thats the point.
Go make a T Shirt out of it, how far do think youll get down the street before someone who doesnt see it as funny attacks you ?
Is it worth it ?
Some of you just need to picture a set of scales in your mind. On one side you have the "fun" of making a joke about something others take VERY seriously. On the other you have the certain knowledge that your "fun" will result in something bad happening, maybe ven as bad as you getting hurt or killed.
Is it worth it ?
How about instead. Saying to yourself. I am above making fun of the beliefs of others. I am able to have a giggle at a cartoon that someone else has done, but beyond that Id rather leave this whole thing to others who have genuine concerns, beliefs and vested interests in the situation.
I promise you, you will feel a better, bigger person for rising above it.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
[quote]Originally posted by Phoenixs
[b]I think it was outrageous of the newspapers to post the pictures. Don't come with the shit of "freedom of speech" and all that. [/quote]
all what? it is a freedom of speech issue and most of the civilized world knows and recognizes this. a few select of theocratic crazies don't.
so what...screw them. they're adults too, if they can't take a little satire, that's their problem.
who the hell are you to make this judgement? those pics say exactley what the artist who drew them intended them to say. it's called art, it's called satire, look it up.
that would be nice...but certainly not necessary.
if they reacted by rioting and burning shit, they'd be in the wrong. if they reacted by protesting, more power to them.
then you don't deserve your freedom of speech IMO
==========================
So Freedom of speech is only for people who support violence, disrespect and no common sence? Or wait, do I only deserve freedom of speech if I agree with you?
c'mon, knock off the strawmen. who would take this position? (except for maybe an iranian...j/k of course)
again, whether you agree with me or not is irrelevent. The only issue i had is when you stated:
It has been done bad things on both sides. And I will not support any of the sides.
If you honestly think that what that artist did (drawing satire pics) is just as bad as rioting and burning shit then I stand by my comment. If I've misunderstood what you meant then I apologize...please clarify.
==========================
I think the method used to "defend" freedom of speech in this case was wrong. I think it should have been done in a more respectful and friendly way. If we in the west are the defenders of freedom, respect and equality, this debate could be taken based on those values. The pictures itself are not terrible. But the decition to post them was not right. I believe you should show other people respect, even in matters like this. Even if the other part responds with extreme measures. This is what for me defines good values. And since we are the "good" side, we should show that we are exactly that. No mather how low the others sink.
Not much to say about the muslims to say here. Reactions like that belong to the medival ages.
So I don't support that the pictures where posted, and I neither support the reactions from the muslims. The world is not a 2 dimensional place, it's not only black & white and good & evil. It's possible to take a position outside the 2 fighting parties. A position based on my values and beliefs.
Well I think all religion is bullshit, burn me for I'm a heretic! Mankind will still be fighting each other in 1000 years because of it.