Danish Cartoons of Mohammed

Razorback · February 2006

I know its "free speech" but when does the "right" to communicate something get over ridden by the common sense and decency NOT TO ? Not in this case obviously.

All i can say is... the cartoonist is a dumbass and I hope hes happy with the results of his exercise in free speech. Was it worth it ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4567940.stm

stone-seraph · February 2006

Just recently in the Seed (based in Denmark) forums there was a terrorist threat in the form of a bunch of images depicting bombs, guns, blood, and explosions with phrases about how "they will regret this". The thread was obviously deleted and the user banned so I can't link to it but the message was clear.

my point of view: no they shouldn't have insulted the religion, but it has been blown way out of proportion. It's not like it hasn't been done before, family guy, SNL, Daily show, about every comedian ever, has poked fun at some religion or another but now since it's being poked at Islam in a newspaper, there are riots and death threats.

Razorback · February 2006

Yes the reaction has been over the top.....

But I dont think anyone who has not lived under a rock for the last few years would have expected anything different. Thats the main reason I think the cartoonist is a dumbass... he must have know the trouble it would cause and defending it under the guise of "free speech" is just an insult to the inteligence of anyone who understand that rights come with responsibilities.

Very bad timing.... very bad....

Rufius · February 2006

I just think some old people just got bored and want to raise hell.

Phoenixs · February 2006

There is already another thread about this.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/488/loadthread/66221/setstart/1/loadclass/35

::::20::

I agree with you Razorback. If you want to debate Freedom of speech within Islam, there are much better ways to do it.

Razorback · February 2006

"Raising Hell" is not a bad description for whats likely to happen.

I dont understand why a few people want to pi$$ off 1/5th of the worlds population for a "bit of a laugh" coz they "live in countries where you can"

I just wish all these loonies and the loonies that want to antagonise other loonies would go do it somewhere away from us normal people that just want to live....

Sorry about doubling up on the threads btw....

Just trying to make the point that Freedom to do something, doesnt mean you HAVE TO! Especially when its just DUMB!

Aldaron · February 2006

If people who did/said dumb things, over-ruling their natural instinct to common sense, weren't suppose to speak -- Then by now we would have duct taped 99% of all the worlds politicians.

BUT, frankly. These Islamic extremists are hypocrites. They get their turbans in a bunch over the fact that a nation, that allows them to peacefully dwell there, also allows freedom of speech.

Now if a Christian waltzed into those Extremist's countries and started practicing their belief openly. They'd get more than a mild drawing that pokes fun at them.

Was this antagonizing? Sure, but when is something in the newspaper not antagonizing?

But the Muslims sure as hell don't have any high ground on this matter.

This whole situation is absurd.

If I went on a tangent against everyone who spoke out against my religion, did something that broke one of it's rules, mocked it, etc. etc.

I'd have more body counts than all of the crazy dictators in the past 200 years.

Razorback · February 2006

Yup I wouldnt argue with any of that Aldaron...

I think the best way to prove your above all this, is not to take the pi$$ out of someones religion, then aruge your allowed to, but to just not take the pi$$ in the first place.

Everyone knows that we have good freedoms in Western Countries, abusing those freedoms is not helpful.

seabass2003 · February 2006

As the old saying goes "F**k 'em if they can't take a joke!"

The real question is "What horrible movie did I take that quote from?"

Razorback · February 2006

Well its quite simple GB.....

There is a big difference between genuinely taking issue with a religion that "eats babies" for example and making a cartoon of them that serves absolutely no purpose other than to antagonise them. If you cant see the difference..... I cant explain it to you.

And Seabass..... being able to take a joke... and being able to grow up enough to get over making fun of people is what this is all about.

Making a joke is your right, making a joke is exercising your freedom of communication, making a joke is a cool and fun thing to do. But is it necessary when the consequences are so dire ?

People of western appearance in Islamic countries are now even less safe walking the streets than they were before (which isnt saying much I admit). Is it still funny when someone from a western country gets thier head sawn off with a kukri over this ? Someone who may even agree with me that this was a bad judgement call may still die because of it. Was it still worth excercising those all important freedoms over, when someone loses thier life ?

Id say no.... but thats just me....

seabass2003 · February 2006

I put these pics in as links instead of thumbs just in case anyone is easily offended DO NOT CLICK THE LINKS if you are one of these people. Also to the moderators if you find these pics offensive just let me know and I will edit the post or you can just delete it.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7058/christgun4zr.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5097/jesusbush7fl.jpg

I don't see any rioting over these pics. Its just an EXCUSE to do so. Also no matter how distasteful something is it doesn't give anyone the right to do what they are doing.

billie · February 2006

recall they wanted to lock US 'citizens' away for burning or flying it upsidedown in the 70s...
recall they wanted to kill the artist that had portrated Christ in a pool of urin and feces...
notice the "catholic" NT is a redacted fabrication, over 2/3s of which is from authors that never knew 'christ' and that same "catholic" church branded all other practicioners of "christanity" that did not obey the dictates of the rcc (roman catholic church) as 'heritics.' And even burned many of them at the stake (of cource not until the rcc had 'confiscated' all assets of those "heritics" [ie. protestants, jews, moslems, witches, any that did buy into the rcc's editing of the OT 10 commandments {eg. idols and savbboth}...] )
notice the same rcc intentionally mistranslated the actual Name of the presumed Christ as jesus and to this day still maintain that is His actual name... this is the same church that has covered up priest child molesters for HUNDREDS of years, the same church that put scientist to death for insisting the earth revolved around the sun... the same church that dug up corpses to burn them for presenting translated into english bibles (wyclif 14th century.)

Recal when the huns went through persia, they found them so contemptable they basically exterminated all of them, slowing down the region's development for a thousand years.
Notice the sunni and wahabe moslems in a grab for power displaced Mohamud's grandson and instaled their own calif causing the sheite/sunni schism and to this day maintain it is ok to kill fellow muslem if they are sheite because they do not answer to their strict wahabe interpretation of dogma...

Notice three to five times all moslems bow and pray to a covered rock with various symbols/names inscribed on the Kaaba
* El or Ilah (meaning 'God')
* Bel or Belshamin (akkadian[E. Semitic vs NW Ba'al]) Enlil (sumerian), Marduk (assyrian/babylonia)
* Yarhibol or Malakbel
* Aglibol
* a number of astral and local deities
* Sin (or Nanna[moon g]-Suen, Babylonian) lunar g
([Harran]24m SE of Sanli Urfa, SE Turkey/[Ur]Nasiriyah, S. Baghdad Iraq) crescent symbol, #30,
* Athtar (related to Ishtar)
* Shams (Samas or Utu) sumerian offspring of Nanna/Ningal,sun g & justice.
* Orotalt
* Alilat (al-Lat?) A stone idol to Allat was later placed in the Ka'abah in Mecca.
* Nergal
* Nabu (or Nebo)
* Bes (Egypto-Arabic)
* Uzza
* Yaghuth
* Manat or Manah
* Atargatis (Syrian)
* Astarte (cyprus-phoenician)(gk. aphrodite), Ishtar(semitic/babylonia), Ashtoreth(heb[boshet:abomination])
* Beltis (possibly)
In addition there is a fragmented meteorite encased in silver attached to one of the corners.

Islamic conflicts worldwide:
War in Kosovo (christain serbs/muslim albanians,) Israeli/arab conflict, Iraq(shi'a/sunni,) Sudan/Nigeria civil war (christain/muslim sunni,) Ethiopia (c/m eritrea,) Uzbekistan (Chechnya and Daghestan,) W. Chineese subversion of Uighur m, Kashmir (india-hindu/pakistan-m sunni,) Mindanao (Philippine c/m sunni,) E. Timor (Indonesian m sunni/c.)

Notice all moslems justify a paramount hatred for jews because (1800bc) Ismael's birthright was stolen at the insistance of Sarah, Abraham's wife due to the birth of her own son Isaac and fearing the birthright legally going to the firstborn, conspired to have Abraham evict Harar and Ismael into the desert with a bag of water ONLY !!

So, Mohamud (612ad) unable to read nor write, maintained for 23 years to have heard voices and that was transcribed into the Qur'an. So now, moslems insist any belittlement of their religion and especially it's founder an unforgivable sin.

Similarly most any 'christain' presented with evidence their bible is a fabrication will instantly resort to near fanatical thumping of their "bible" as the one and only "true" word of G (of course you have to remove the 'jewish' OT since the rcc's NT continues where the OT [160bc] left off.)

Phoenixs · February 2006

What I don't understand now, is that they keep on printing the pictures. Just heard on the radio that one of the biggest Israeli papers are printing the pictures. As if there isn't enough trouble in Israel right now ::::03::

What I also think is abit interesting in this case is that the danish newspaper who printed these first, in 1993 refused to print similar cartoons of Jesus. Because it might offend people's religion.

The magazines have made their points, they have created hell, massive amounts of trouble and made the situation in the world even worse. So why can't they stop now? Why keep fueling the fire?

zeboath · February 2006

Yeah I don't get it. Why would papers keep on printing it? And why would the media down in the middle eastern country work against peace. They are also fuelling the fire, by not informing of various excuses and messages released by the prime minister in denmark and by the newspaper. They've done nothing but enraging the people.

Imperatorian · February 2006

Oh, and the irony of the double-standard in reverse...

So it's okay to publish a cartoon which goes well beyond the standards of decency, because of freedom of speech, but it isn't okay to protest that speech (even with calls of killing people, which, sorry to say, is also protected speech at least in the US, and I assume in the UK as well), despite it being protected speech?

Talk about a double-standard.

The cartoon was wrong. Yes the press had freedom of the press, but it should have shown restraint. Freedom of the press allows some wonderful things, but it also allows for tabloids. I wouldn't suggest restricting free speech because of tabloids (or because of this cartoon), but I would also suggest that free press isn't all wonderful.

The protests were wrong. Yes there is the freedom to protest, but the protestors should have shown restraint in their message. Freedom of protest allows some wonderful things, but it also allows for veiled death threats. I wouldn't suggest restricting the right to protest because of hate rallies (or because of the current threats in the protests over this cartoon), but I would also suggest that the right to protest isn't all wonderful.

I think that the paper should have simply apologized for not excercising restraint in what they published. I think what's more despicable than this one paper publishing it is that it was reprinted all across Europe just to thumb their bloody noses at Muslims everywhere. It's disgusting.

While it's disgusting that an Embassy was torched over this, I don't think that extremist Christians (the same ones that have murdered abortion doctors/delivered death threats/bombed clinics) would do too well with a cartoon of Jesus being sodomized by Paul or somesuch.

The irony of all sides here is overwhelming.

MUHzzxK0 · February 2006

No one understand danish humor...

Arremus · February 2006

Meh, I get a:
No. No. No.

These are way to volatile, and for the most part are not allowed on the boards.

*locked*
response from starting a poll on Evolution vs Intelligent Design, yet there's a thread going here which contains Islamic bashing, Christian bashing, religious discussion etc...
Double standards any? ::::35:: Or maybe it's just cos my post might end up debating Christianity. ::::12::

But for the record, I think the great Mother Earth should just rise up and wipe out all symbols and worshipers of extremist religion (Western and Eastern), and the world will be a much, much healthier place.

In my opinion, publishing those cartoons the [i[first time[/i] was about testing the boundaries of freedom of speech and making a political-religious statement. They well knew it was against Islamic law to do so, so it was done to be offensive without a doubt. I do not, however, think they expected the street parades in their honour.
But any time they were printed after that was about stirring the massive shit pot that is religious turmoil in the world at present, with an aim to create controversy and nothing more.
I mean, why would a paper in Israel print them (if they did) than any other reason to offend the Palestinians and to start more crap with them.

Meh. Religion in general deserves a bullet in the head in my opinion. Not faith. Religion.

JoHosephat · February 2006

Originally posted by Imperatorian
Oh, and the irony of the double-standard in reverse...

So it's okay to publish a cartoon which goes well beyond the standards of decency, because of freedom of speech, but it isn't okay to protest that speech (even with calls of killing people, which, sorry to say, is also protected speech at least in the US, and I assume in the UK as well), despite it being protected speech?

To peacably assemble and protest is one thing: To make death threats, bombing threats, and practically call a Jihad on their heads, is another.

While it's disgusting that an Embassy was torched over this, I don't think that extremist Christians (the same ones that have murdered abortion doctors/delivered death threats/bombed clinics) would do too well with a cartoon of Jesus being sodomized by Paul or somesuch.

What does this even have to do with Christians?

And I don't think anyone would do "too well" with even the idea of such a revoltingly damnable picture: You have a really distorted view of reality if you think that would be REMOTELY the same as just some picture of Mohammad.

The irony of all sides here is overwhelming.

SonOfAGhost · February 2006

Rzorback, you obviously haven't actually seen the cartoons in question. Indeed, most of them aren't making fun of mohammed so much as the circumstances that led to their creation.

A Danish author, K

wouldzey · February 2006

Originally posted by Dis_Ordur
While the rioting and uproar over the cartoons are indeed tragic and painful for certain parts of the world, it is also and indicator of how ass-backwards their societies are... If we rioted everytime someone poked fun at Bush, Jesus or any other westernized figureheads or dieties, this place would look like Iraq daily...

I cant agree more mate.

Im just glad that the Muslim leaders over here in England have condemed the riots and sadistic comments some muslim groups are coming out with. How are law abiding Muslims suposed to convince the world that their religion is one of peace when so many Muslims are taking to the streets and calling for not only violence but murder whenever someone has a differing opinion about the religion they base their lives around? (all cartoons aside, people should be allowed freedom to express their opinions just as long as it doesnt call for, promote or gloryfy violence and hatred towards others).

Also a great development has been a British Newspaper called the Sun including a 'name a shame' feature in today's paper showing the scum that took to the london streets yesterday calling for attacks against Europe, murder on a grand scale and terrorist strikes against Europe. Scum of the earth they are and reflect so negativly on the rest of the Muslim community. Scotland Yard says that they are looking to arrest the protesters who called for violence and murder through the use of banners and posters. If the minority keep acting like savages then how are Muslims ever going to fit into western culture? The few spoil it for the many as usual and its sad.

wouldzey · February 2006

[quote][i]Originally posted by Imperatorian

Oh, and the irony of the double-standard in reverse...
So it's okay to publish a cartoon which goes well beyond the standards of decency, because of freedom of speech, but it isn't okay to protest that speech (even with calls of killing people, which, sorry to say, is also protected speech at least in the US, and I assume in the UK as well), despite it being protected speech?
[/quote]

No its illegal in the UK to incite hate and violence against others, good job too. The fact that for years sick fanatics have been shouting without consequence dirt on the streets of not only the UK but elsewhere too of how 9/11 was justified and glorious and that the london bombings should only the beggining with calls for more strikes.

The laws were changed last year (atleast in the uk) so these sick lunatics cannot call for terrorist attacks and preach their deluded ways to others. They get deported or detained under the terrorism act and good ridance to the lot of them.

Freedom of speach is one thing, but this isnt speach, this is motivating others to be violent and spread hate about another culture and other ways of life.

Dis_Ordur · February 2006

Originally posted by wouldzey

Scum of the earth they are and reflect so negativly on the rest of the Muslim community. Scotland Yard says that they are looking to arrest the protesters who called for violence and murder through the use of banners and posters. If the minority keep acting like savages then how are Muslims ever going to fit into western culture? The few spoil it for the many as usual and its sad.

Well put... I will however challenege your point about Muslim acceptance... Certain beliefs are of 'core values' in the Muslim faith... Islam, like Judaism never had their 'New Testament' and by and large live life by the 'ways of old'... This is not a good thing at all...

Think about this, what if present day Christians reverted from the teachings of Jesus, and went straight to the likes of Moses, Job or any of the other Old Testament prophets... You would find such extreme and fundamentalist sayings as "Eye for an Eye", "Strike Terror into Hearts of Enemies", "Cast down the sinners" and etc... Lots of real violent stuff in the Old Testament... The Islam holy book of the Koran has a lot of this type of rhetoric, and guess what, over 50% of Muslims let their faith dictate immoral decisions that lead to destructive behavior... As globalization continues, we will be forced to legitimize or illegitimize certain belief systems as a whole, and Muslims by and large do NOT make the grade...

Chopping off a shoplifter's hand for justice? Treating women as inferior property? Not believing in accrued interest or banking? Aboloshing movie theatres and contact with the west? Ruthlessly running economies based off of the 'Good Ole' Boy' system using the Royal Family as the pinnacle? Are these belief and value systems you consider to be legit? These aren't instances of random extremism, this is by and large how Muslims live... A very smal minority, like less than 10% would ever act different... A lot of orthodox Jews are just as bad... Real messed up over there, at least 100 years behind in some parts of the Middle East, I mean, we are still dealing with Monarchies for Christ's sake!!!

Oh, and one more thing... Show me one piece of information or article that claims the Nation of Islam as a whole wishes to assimilate into world culture... You won't find any, because they simply do not want to be a part of the rest of the world... This is why Jews have had a rough go of it throughout history, always retaining the old ways, always segregating and separating themselves from the rest of the world...

Razorback · February 2006

Ill keep it short.

I HAVE seen the cartoons. Even though I am a TOTAL atheist, I can still see why Muslims would be so upset by them. Maybe Im too sensitive too then.

I will just close with a comment from the Prime Minister of New Zealand Helen Clarke

"This has nothing to do with freedom of speech, its not an argument about freedom of speech, it is simply a question of judgement"

Thats all I have been trying to say. Why upset people ?

wouldzey · February 2006

I understand exactly where you'r coming from, i also think its not so black and white.

We have so many Muslims in this country (UK) that our culture has somewhat changed and evolved to accept them, in turn there is a large number of Muslims who have also 'given' a little and that has helped lots fit into our way of life. Unfortunatly a lot have not and this is where the conflicting cultures really cause trouble.

Simply put, the traditional Muslim way of life is incompatible with our western culture, they just dont meet eye to eye. Instead both sides need to give and in some cases have given well creating a more united culture.

I hate the idea of multicultural societies simply because its not a united society, its collective voice of many. Like in Britain the Government talk about us being multicultural, i think this is the wrong way to go about things. Britain should only have one culture, British culture, this should be made up of parts of every other culture out there, not everyone doing their own thing as it currently is.

Like you mentioned in your post, the beliefs are so contrasting their is oftentimes conflict and each side looks at each other as the evil or the messed up side. Its a no win situation. On both sides we have communities hell-bent on not willing to evolve and blending to get on with each other to a greater degree. Its the minority instances that manage to pull off a blended culture to great effect. The biggest issue is that so many Muslims out there are damaging the chances of both cultures blending in the long term.

I think in the recent past the west has been quiet open to looking at other cultures and trying to work them into their own. I also believe that many Muslims are wanting to integrate, just not wash their hands of their past and religion. With the rising terrorist threats we face the doors are closing and the way a large part of the Muslim community reacts to comments, differing opinions and non-believers just makes it worse. The cultures and communities that are really trying to change and evolve to fit into our own evolving culture are then torn between two sides and from their development is slow, even stagnent.

Its believed by a large number of eastern communities that they are at war with the west, they are often told this at birth. They want a fight and are happy to give it. With people being born into that type of life, i supose its no suprise that the more the east attacks, the more closed off and isolated the west becomes.

The time when the east realises that we are not at war with them, start acting in a civilized way we will see lots of improvment and integration. But in order for integration, the muslim community need to change too.

virtuella · February 2006

I live in Denmark and there is a lot of misunderstandings floating around.
Sorry for the bad grammar but i hope you understand most of it

As Sonofaghost mentioned,some Danish Imams traveled to the middleeast more than 4 months after the 12 drawings was printed the first time in Jyllands posten.

Those Imams brought the 12 original Drawings but also had 3 other drawings that were sent to them by anonymous emails so those 3 drawings never have been published by Jyllands posten.
1 showed Muhammed with a pigs nose, 1 where a dog humped a praying muslim and the last showing muhammed as pedofile.
The Imams also spread a false rumor that we in Denmark would reprint a censored version of the Koran which is not true.
That trip more or less lit the fuse starting various Boycots etc.

The Danish Imam Abu Laban later said to danish news that he didn't support the danish boycot in the middleeast but when he later same day gave an interview to an arabic TV station he said the opposite.
The next day he excused himself by saying he didn't know that the microphone was on when he said that to the Arabic station!
I'm quite sure it's allowed for muslims to lie and speak with 2 tounges to nonbelievers of islam if it helps islams cause.So in his head he didn't do anything wrong.
I can't remember the correct word for it,but it's mentioned in the Koran.

Last week several SMS messages were sent around mentioning a demonstration on Copenhagen where Danish people would burn the Koran.
Those news reached Syria the same day they burned the Building housing 3 embassies.
No demonstrations in Denmark happened where the Koran were burned.
The socalled SMS rumored Koranburning demonstration in Copenhagen never took place.
It was most likely a false SMS rumor spread by groups in Denmark who is to the most right (neo nacists etc who wanted to stir the pot)
Mostly police and second generation immigrants showed up where the demonstration was supposed to start,but again nothing happened.

And now today our Queen got quoted in an Arabic newpapers from a 1 year old interview which was wrongly translated from Danish to English and that made a huge difference.

This whole thing just shows there is huge difference between our cultures.
Middleeastern newpapers and tabloids regulary publish "comic" drawings that is anti-christian and anti-semetic but that never rises a chaos like this.
It's like reversed Racism.They can mock me and my religion but if i mock them or Islam,i'm just a racist that hate muslims and Islam.
Freedom of speech goes both ways but some seems to have a hard way understanding this.

It might have been stupid by Jylland posten to print those drawings because they might touch a sensible issue,but they are allowed to do it here in Denmark.
Even muslim lawyers said to the imams that they don't have a case if they brought it to court.

Missunderstandings,lies and false rumors maded this thing explode.

What i really can't understand is why those Imams in the first place travelled to Egypt with cartoons that have never been published by Jyllands Posten and also spread false rumors about Denmark would reprint a censored version of the Koran.
Looks to me like some radical Muslims here in Denmark is interested in a confrontation between our 2 cultures.
That's like biting the hand that feeds them.

Personally i think Europe will get bigger and bigger problems with Immigrants and muslims and at a time we will have racial riots like US had years back.
We saw it happening in small scale in France,Holland and England.
Something has to be done or else our 2 cultures will never learn to live side by side.

Respect for others religion would be a good start,but i can't help myself to dislike the fanatic islamic fundementalists.
Every suicide bomber i heard about is a Muslim.
Most terrorists are muslims.
Freedom of speech and peace is not the first thing that comes into my mind when i hear the word Islam.

The moderat muslims needs to start take control over their countries instead of letting radical fanatics rule them,but that's just my personal oppinion.

Saudi arabia withdrew their ambassadeur from Denmark because of those 12 drawings.
That action comes from a country that does not allow women to drive cars,the Bible is illegal,it's illegal to wear or import any Christian religion symbols such as Crosses,Christmastrees etc and they base their law on the Sharialaw.

Maybe the cultural barries are just to big allready?
They sure didn't become smaller the last week or two,but no islamic country shall tell us what we are allowed to print or publish in Denmark.

That's just my 2 cent of various missunderstandings and my own personal oppinion about the drawings and islam in general.
The line between love and hate is really thin these days.

Razorback · February 2006

Originally posted by virtuella

The line between love and hate is really thin these days.

Which is why we should value the line more than the ability to cleverly dance around it

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Danish Cartoons of Mohammed

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Danish Cartoons of Mohammed

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