ED is so much better with the online interactions anyways.
I can understand this for people who wanted an offline game but personally I'm happy that everyone is forced into the same ED universe. (Beta backer)
Agreed.
And I would like to add that I am disappointed with those who wish Frontier and E:D to fail, just because the game is a little different from its ancient origins. Computer video game development is software development, things change along the way. Software is never finished, only released, and eventually abandoned in favor of something better, this is to be expected.
Wars aren't waged due to anything BUT ethics, but I can tell you've really got a bee up your bum about this, but I don't, so I'll just sit back and watch the fire from the comfort of my couch
ED is so much better with the online interactions anyways.
I can understand this for people who wanted an offline game but personally I'm happy that everyone is forced into the same ED universe. (Beta backer)
Agreed.
And I would like to add that I am disappointed with those who wish Frontier and E:D to fail, just because the game is a little different from its ancient origins. Computer video game development is software development, things change along the way. Software is never finished, only released, and eventually abandoned in favor of something better, this is to be expected.
Gads, but I need to get my bindings set up...
The reason that many people backed this game was because of the offline option, many of thoes early backers are people older than 20, people that for years have looked for a good game in space, but now many of them are married and have familes and jobs and rather have the option of offline playing so they can play at their leisure.
ED is so much better with the online interactions anyways.
I can understand this for people who wanted an offline game but personally I'm happy that everyone is forced into the same ED universe. (Beta backer)
Agreed.
And I would like to add that I am disappointed with those who wish Frontier and E:D to fail, just because the game is a little different from its ancient origins. Computer video game development is software development, things change along the way. Software is never finished, only released, and eventually abandoned in favor of something better, this is to be expected.
Gads, but I need to get my bindings set up...
The reason that many people backed this game was because of the offline option, many of thoes early backers are people older than 20, people that for years have looked for a good game in space, but now many of them are married and have familes and jobs and rather have the option of offline playing so they can play at their leisure.
It does not matter what the reason was that they donated.
Its been said here already. A donation does not in any way, dictate how the game will be made. Now if you were an investor, it might be a different story.
Read the fine print.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So finally they said they will refund my full order. The initial message basically said I screw you. It was only after I said I was posting on mmorpg and other forums that they offered the refund.
The refund message starts with:
"Firstly we want to clarify and re-iterate that the announcement of no offline play does NOT affect the existing single player / Solo mode. Single player / Solo mode is and will be still in the game, and requires a relatively low bandwidth online connection. Around 10 kbps average. In single player / Solo mode you will not come into contact with another human player."
Yeah it means you need to be connected to the INTERNET all the time to play the game. It's really simple and a huge game changer for some people. Others are still having issues getting refunds but I think my approach might have helped.
So what exactly is the problem? You liked the game enough to play it, your pc is booted up to play it, you don't disconnect you network card when you don't use it normally. This irrational fear of connectivity (?) and angry ranting is ridiculous, next it will be smart phone connectivity and your cable tv connectivity.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom So what exactly is the problem? You liked the game enough to play it, your pc is booted up to play it, you don't disconnect you network card when you don't use it normally. This irrational fear of connectivity (?) and angry ranting is ridiculous, next it will be smart phone connectivity and your cable tv connectivity.
Lets not forget that not everyone is well-connected as you might think. Many people even in remote cities of USA have terrible internet connections. These people prefer offline games and this is a valid rant in my opinion. No dev on this planet could convince me that multiplayer is easier to make than singleplayer. Just no.
Hell some people's connections are not even stable. In one moment you have superfast 100+ mbps connection and in the nxt you don't ... what then? Get disconnected and lose progress? Idk, defending such a move is quite frankly retarded.
Also your TV is connected to your in-house WiFi and it could care less if there is WAN access or not. Home streaming will work. Your smartphone loses connection all the time and most games are designed with this in mind. I highly doubt E:D is designed this way.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So what exactly is the problem? You liked the game enough to play it, your pc is booted up to play it, you don't disconnect you network card when you don't use it normally. This irrational fear of connectivity (?) and angry ranting is ridiculous, next it will be smart phone connectivity and your cable tv connectivity.
Always wonder what the problem was. Yes you might get downtime....SO!?!?! Or is it you think they are stealing your personal info from your brainpan?
Seems to me the biggest outcry is from the piracy crowd. PC only means we can crack it. Awww...poor crackers
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Mm fair enough I guess, I assumed most people in first world countries day in this day and age would have a stable connection local issues aside. l believe the game has a fairly robust recovery system, and it was fairly obvious that having an economy with more than 1 real person would require a connection.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom So what exactly is the problem? You liked the game enough to play it, your pc is booted up to play it, you don't disconnect you network card when you don't use it normally. This irrational fear of connectivity (?) and angry ranting is ridiculous, next it will be smart phone connectivity and your cable tv connectivity.
Always wonder what the problem was. Yes you might get downtime....SO!?!?! Or is it you think they are stealing your personal info from your brainpan?
Seems to me the biggest outcry is from the piracy crowd. PC only means we can crack it. Awww...poor crackers
The so what is that you pay 60$ for a game and you can't play it whenever you want.
The so what is that those companies eventually go bankrupt and close shop and do you know what happens to the game servers? They get scraped.
The so what is that you pre-order a singleplayer game and receive a half-baked MMO.
And cut the piracy crap. You are talking as if there is no piracy on consoles. Piracy has nothing to do with it. Companies are trying to have you rent your games for 60$, not own then, like you did in the past 20 years.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So what exactly is the problem? You liked the game enough to play it, your pc is booted up to play it, you don't disconnect you network card when you don't use it normally. This irrational fear of connectivity (?) and angry ranting is ridiculous, next it will be smart phone connectivity and your cable tv connectivity.
I think a lot of these 'offline way or the highway' are pseudo-luddites :-) What they seem to want is a game they can pause, a game they can manually save, a game that doesn't have any market changes influenced by other people so on and so on.
The network stuff doesn't hold much water for solo online, 10Kbp/s = 350MB for 90 hours of gaming.
I do not understand you guys. I’m living in such a third world for most of you, and I have 200Mbit limitless Internet connection for less than 20 bucks a month. How it is that modern western household cannot afford similar line? How much is it? 5xBig Mac Menu?
Originally posted by Torvaldr What do they need 10k of my bandwidth for when I'm in single player mode. It sounds like they want to use my resources for torrenting or some p2p resource sharing. No thanks. If they want to do online validation periodically, ala Steam, okay, but I'm not okay with an always on connection that sucks up my bandwidth for nothing.
My understanding is that this allows for a lot of the calculation/simulation to be done server-wise, enabling a richer world and dynamic content delivered to you.
Its also likely that it serves to prevent cheating/duping by requiring constant validation with the server.
These are all things which, without them, your game experience would suck.
I don't want some game sucking up bandwidth that serves me no purpose.
If you do not think what I mentioned above serves you any purpose, then this game isn't for you, I would think. Not every game caters to everyone. They've had to make design decisions and it these tends to leave some people out. Seems like your demographics and/or player type didn't make the cut. Sorry about that
Originally posted by leway21 "I would have had no issue with the ethics of Frontier and David Braben if they had offered full refunds to anyone who wanted them after announcing that they were pulling offline support. But they didn't do that. They are nitpicking legal loopholes so they can keep their backers' money after kicking them to the curb. THAT is what is unethical and the source of the backlash."
Nitpicking legal loopholes is a bit loaded.
They are operating in the word of the law, terms people agreed to when donating or purchasing aka hard but fair. If it bothers you that much the last option is to sell your account.
You are probably right although in some countries they might run into issues depending on how they worded the original feature.
Regradless they would have saved themselves a lot of headaches and bad press if they had offered refunds for those that wanted them over this. They didn't have to do it clearly but is it really worth the bad word of mouth this close to launch not to? I guess that depends on how the developers are doing financially and it might be they are scraping the bottom of the barrel to launch.
Originally posted by leway21 "I would have had no issue with the ethics of Frontier and David Braben if they had offered full refunds to anyone who wanted them after announcing that they were pulling offline support. But they didn't do that. They are nitpicking legal loopholes so they can keep their backers' money after kicking them to the curb. THAT is what is unethical and the source of the backlash."
Nitpicking legal loopholes is a bit loaded.
They are operating in the word of the law, terms people agreed to when donating or purchasing aka hard but fair. If it bothers you that much the last option is to sell your account.
You are probably right although in some countries they might run into issues depending on how they worded the original feature.
Regradless they would have saved themselves a lot of headaches and bad press if they had offered refunds for those that wanted them over this. They didn't have to do it clearly but is it really worth the bad word of mouth this close to launch not to? I guess that depends on how the developers are doing financially and it might be they are scraping the bottom of the barrel to launch.
Originally posted by Torvaldr What do they need 10k of my bandwidth for when I'm in single player mode. It sounds like they want to use my resources for torrenting or some p2p resource sharing. No thanks. If they want to do online validation periodically, ala Steam, okay, but I'm not okay with an always on connection that sucks up my bandwidth for nothing.
My understanding is that this allows for a lot of the calculation/simulation to be done server-wise, enabling a richer world and dynamic content delivered to you.
Its also likely that it servers to prevent cheating/duping by requiring constant validation with the server.
These are all things which, without them, your game experience would suck.
And yet other mmos do fine with calculations without pigging out on bandwidth. That sounds like a lot of excuse making to me. What "richer world and dynamic" experience or features are you talking about. The more work done server side and the more data transfer and bandwidth required then the more latency affects player interaction. Plus I thought a major point of this games server model was distributed computing so whatever bluster you're trying to argue with makes no sense.
All MMOs require you to be online and uses a bit of bandwidth, usually more than this game is taking. It's no different here.
Why generate stuff on the server? Because it knows stuff your client doesn't, such as what thousands of other players are doing, and it uses it to generate the unfolding storyline and economics. For your client to simulate that is doable (mostly, although real humans tend to get more creative) but a completely different game to develop.
If you think that will prevent exploits and cheating you're either naive or being dishonest. Many games have tried both server and client side methods to combat cheating and neither have prevented it.
I agree with you. I didn't mean to say that it was an end-all be-all solution, but it is A LOT (several orders of magnitude) easier to cheat a single-player game than it is to cheat an online game, where you have to fool the server about what you're doing (i.e. did Soandso really found that magical sword of +5 in that instance or did he not? how would the server know if he didn't speak to that client for a long time?).
Also, when you do cheat an online game, you also impact gameplay for everyone else in that game.
By the way, none of that online overhead is necessary for a single player experience. So why are they foisting it on the player.
Because its an online game at the core.
My gaming experience is just fine how most mmos deliver it and with relatively low bandwidth requirements. You're right though, the game isn't for me and they can live without my money. I'm not alone in that one for sure. It's not like there is no competition out there for new space games and an established behemoth they have to contend with.
They did say it will require low bandwidth, not sure what you mean.
Kind of reminds me of what happened with Firefall making a major change before release. Players went nuts over it. It goes to show you its a risk you take when you kickstater any of these games. They can promise the moon and change their mind and you have zero say in anything.
I see you got suspended or banned with only 6 posts on Frontier's forums.. I also see that you only started posting today and that all of your posts are shouting about being scammed. One has to wonder if you're simply trolling.
There is always an element of risk with crowd-funding or pre-ordering. Knowing this, you should have waited until release before buying the game.
Umm seems like the timing is fair,he started voicing opinion AFTER being mislead,seems fair to me.
Morals are something i have seen changed in society quite a bit over the years,i remember when our elders told us the same thing,now i see it for myself.
People in this world are just living a dog eat dog world,many would step on their own family member to save their skin.
IMO if this developer portrayed one thing and then changed it,it would seem VERY obvious to at least offer a refund.It really baffles me or maybe it shouldn't but gaming laws seem to protect the owner far more than the consumer which is not the case in any other consumer purchase.
Unless a third world country it is BY LAW ILLEGAL to mislead a customer and misrepresent your product,however seems the gaming industry put in a loophole stating that once a package or product is open they are off the hook because of the irregularity of a game purchase.The reason is obvious,once you have the product you could simply return it after making a copy.This however is ancient software piracy protection,you NEED a keycode or a valid account to play these games now a days so not like the customer has any advantage at all by asking for a refund.
Well sorry i missed one valid point, a consumer COULD play the game for a lengthy time then ask for a refund which would be unfair of course,this is why LAW usually allows 30 days or so for refunds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Hariken Kind of reminds me of what happened with Firefall making a major change before release. Players went nuts over it. It goes to show you its a risk you take when you kickstater any of these games. They can promise the moon and change their mind and you have zero say in anything.
I don't think it was a major change. It is a promise unfulfilled which pisses off a fringe of their fanbase, but it is in no way a major change.
I see you got suspended or banned with only 6 posts on Frontier's forums.. I also see that you only started posting today and that all of your posts are shouting about being scammed. One has to wonder if you're simply trolling.
There is always an element of risk with crowd-funding or pre-ordering. Knowing this, you should have waited until release before buying the game.
So he was wronged and then started to complain AFTER he has wronged?
You must have really rose-tinted glasses to view this as unusual.
Originally posted by Torvaldr What do they need 10k of my bandwidth for when I'm in single player mode. It sounds like they want to use my resources for torrenting or some p2p resource sharing. No thanks. If they want to do online validation periodically, ala Steam, okay, but I'm not okay with an always on connection that sucks up my bandwidth for nothing.
My understanding is that this allows for a lot of the calculation/simulation to be done server-wise, enabling a richer world and dynamic content delivered to you.
Its also likely that it servers to prevent cheating/duping by requiring constant validation with the server.
These are all things which, without them, your game experience would suck.
And yet other mmos do fine with calculations without pigging out on bandwidth. That sounds like a lot of excuse making to me. What "richer world and dynamic" experience or features are you talking about. The more work done server side and the more data transfer and bandwidth required then the more latency affects player interaction. Plus I thought a major point of this games server model was distributed computing so whatever bluster you're trying to argue with makes no sense.
If you think that will prevent exploits and cheating you're either naive or being dishonest. Many games have tried both server and client side methods to combat cheating and neither have prevented it.
By the way, none of that online overhead is necessary for a single player experience. So why are they foisting it on the player.
My gaming experience is just fine how most mmos deliver it and with relatively low bandwidth requirements. You're right though, the game isn't for me and they can live without my money. I'm not alone in that one for sure. It's not like there is no competition out there for new space games and an established behemoth they have to contend with.
Why do you keep posting that ED takes a lot of bandwidth?
Playing solo online takes very little. Here someone did a test using their PC tethered to a phone. 100MB over the course of 4-5 hours is not exactly that much.
Originally posted by Hariken Kind of reminds me of what happened with Firefall making a major change before release. Players went nuts over it. It goes to show you its a risk you take when you kickstater any of these games. They can promise the moon and change their mind and you have zero say in anything.
Exactly.
I also find it strange seeing threads created by new accounts just for the purpose of complaining. No one cares. Buy the game or don't buy the game. Whining on a website means nothing.
Originally posted by Hariken Kind of reminds me of what happened with Firefall making a major change before release. Players went nuts over it. It goes to show you its a risk you take when you kickstater any of these games. They can promise the moon and change their mind and you have zero say in anything.
Exactly.
I also find it strange seeing threads created by new accounts just for the purpose of complaining. No one cares. Buy the game or don't buy the game. Whining on a website means nothing.
seems to me they have the same right you do. So guess if you dont like there opinion maybe not read it?
Comments
Agreed.
And I would like to add that I am disappointed with those who wish Frontier and E:D to fail, just because the game is a little different from its ancient origins. Computer video game development is software development, things change along the way. Software is never finished, only released, and eventually abandoned in favor of something better, this is to be expected.
Gads, but I need to get my bindings set up...
Wars aren't waged due to anything BUT ethics, but I can tell you've really got a bee up your bum about this, but I don't, so I'll just sit back and watch the fire from the comfort of my couch
The reason that many people backed this game was because of the offline option, many of thoes early backers are people older than 20, people that for years have looked for a good game in space, but now many of them are married and have familes and jobs and rather have the option of offline playing so they can play at their leisure.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
It does not matter what the reason was that they donated.
Its been said here already. A donation does not in any way, dictate how the game will be made. Now if you were an investor, it might be a different story.
Read the fine print.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So finally they said they will refund my full order. The initial message basically said I screw you. It was only after I said I was posting on mmorpg and other forums that they offered the refund.
The refund message starts with:
"Firstly we want to clarify and re-iterate that the announcement of no offline play does NOT affect the existing single player / Solo mode. Single player / Solo mode is and will be still in the game, and requires a relatively low bandwidth online connection. Around 10 kbps average. In single player / Solo mode you will not come into contact with another human player."
Yeah it means you need to be connected to the INTERNET all the time to play the game. It's really simple and a huge game changer for some people. Others are still having issues getting refunds but I think my approach might have helped.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Lets not forget that not everyone is well-connected as you might think. Many people even in remote cities of USA have terrible internet connections. These people prefer offline games and this is a valid rant in my opinion. No dev on this planet could convince me that multiplayer is easier to make than singleplayer. Just no.
Hell some people's connections are not even stable. In one moment you have superfast 100+ mbps connection and in the nxt you don't ... what then? Get disconnected and lose progress? Idk, defending such a move is quite frankly retarded.
Also your TV is connected to your in-house WiFi and it could care less if there is WAN access or not. Home streaming will work. Your smartphone loses connection all the time and most games are designed with this in mind. I highly doubt E:D is designed this way.
Always wonder what the problem was. Yes you might get downtime....SO!?!?! Or is it you think they are stealing your personal info from your brainpan?
Seems to me the biggest outcry is from the piracy crowd. PC only means we can crack it. Awww...poor crackers
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The so what is that you pay 60$ for a game and you can't play it whenever you want.
The so what is that those companies eventually go bankrupt and close shop and do you know what happens to the game servers? They get scraped.
The so what is that you pre-order a singleplayer game and receive a half-baked MMO.
And cut the piracy crap. You are talking as if there is no piracy on consoles. Piracy has nothing to do with it. Companies are trying to have you rent your games for 60$, not own then, like you did in the past 20 years.
I think a lot of these 'offline way or the highway' are pseudo-luddites :-) What they seem to want is a game they can pause, a game they can manually save, a game that doesn't have any market changes influenced by other people so on and so on.
The network stuff doesn't hold much water for solo online, 10Kbp/s = 350MB for 90 hours of gaming.
I do not understand you guys. I’m living in such a third world for most of you, and I have 200Mbit limitless Internet connection for less than 20 bucks a month. How it is that modern western household cannot afford similar line? How much is it? 5xBig Mac Menu?
My understanding is that this allows for a lot of the calculation/simulation to be done server-wise, enabling a richer world and dynamic content delivered to you.
Its also likely that it serves to prevent cheating/duping by requiring constant validation with the server.
These are all things which, without them, your game experience would suck.
If you do not think what I mentioned above serves you any purpose, then this game isn't for you, I would think. Not every game caters to everyone. They've had to make design decisions and it these tends to leave some people out. Seems like your demographics and/or player type didn't make the cut. Sorry about that
You are probably right although in some countries they might run into issues depending on how they worded the original feature.
Regradless they would have saved themselves a lot of headaches and bad press if they had offered refunds for those that wanted them over this. They didn't have to do it clearly but is it really worth the bad word of mouth this close to launch not to? I guess that depends on how the developers are doing financially and it might be they are scraping the bottom of the barrel to launch.
Maybe they can't do it, too.
All MMOs require you to be online and uses a bit of bandwidth, usually more than this game is taking. It's no different here.
Why generate stuff on the server? Because it knows stuff your client doesn't, such as what thousands of other players are doing, and it uses it to generate the unfolding storyline and economics. For your client to simulate that is doable (mostly, although real humans tend to get more creative) but a completely different game to develop.
I agree with you. I didn't mean to say that it was an end-all be-all solution, but it is A LOT (several orders of magnitude) easier to cheat a single-player game than it is to cheat an online game, where you have to fool the server about what you're doing (i.e. did Soandso really found that magical sword of +5 in that instance or did he not? how would the server know if he didn't speak to that client for a long time?).
Also, when you do cheat an online game, you also impact gameplay for everyone else in that game.
Because its an online game at the core.
They did say it will require low bandwidth, not sure what you mean.
Umm seems like the timing is fair,he started voicing opinion AFTER being mislead,seems fair to me.
Morals are something i have seen changed in society quite a bit over the years,i remember when our elders told us the same thing,now i see it for myself.
People in this world are just living a dog eat dog world,many would step on their own family member to save their skin.
IMO if this developer portrayed one thing and then changed it,it would seem VERY obvious to at least offer a refund.It really baffles me or maybe it shouldn't but gaming laws seem to protect the owner far more than the consumer which is not the case in any other consumer purchase.
Unless a third world country it is BY LAW ILLEGAL to mislead a customer and misrepresent your product,however seems the gaming industry put in a loophole stating that once a package or product is open they are off the hook because of the irregularity of a game purchase.The reason is obvious,once you have the product you could simply return it after making a copy.This however is ancient software piracy protection,you NEED a keycode or a valid account to play these games now a days so not like the customer has any advantage at all by asking for a refund.
Well sorry i missed one valid point, a consumer COULD play the game for a lengthy time then ask for a refund which would be unfair of course,this is why LAW usually allows 30 days or so for refunds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't think it was a major change. It is a promise unfulfilled which pisses off a fringe of their fanbase, but it is in no way a major change.
So he was wronged and then started to complain AFTER he has wronged?
You must have really rose-tinted glasses to view this as unusual.
Why do you keep posting that ED takes a lot of bandwidth?
Playing solo online takes very little. Here someone did a test using their PC tethered to a phone. 100MB over the course of 4-5 hours is not exactly that much.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71760
Exactly.
I also find it strange seeing threads created by new accounts just for the purpose of complaining. No one cares. Buy the game or don't buy the game. Whining on a website means nothing.
seems to me they have the same right you do. So guess if you dont like there opinion maybe not read it?