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Danish Cartoons of Mohammed
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The thing I think is the problem here, is that they're shouting about how awful those cartoons are and how they're being persecuted and how everyone's out to get them, but really they're only upset because they're the victims this time. If it were cartoons about christianity or judaism, I'm betting they would be the first ones to be laughing and putting them up on the wall of their cubicle or whatever.
The problem is that these people only care that something wrong is happening because it's happening to them.
Or atleast that's my view of the situation. And I'm not trying to generalize all muslisms or anything like that. What I'm saying is, in general, people like this care about right and wrong only as far as it benefits them. If you show me those same people rioting in the streets over an insulting cartoon about Australians, or Mail-men, or Lutherans, and then I'll believe they care about free speech going too far. Until then, they're just freaking out because someone picked them to make fun of instead of any other random group of people.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
This may sound good for a news sound byte, but it couldn't be further from the truth... Mainstream Islam is very comparable to Mormons or Latter Day Saints church goers... Puligamy, mistreatment of women, zealous views of who goes to heaven/hell and etc...
So please spare us from this legitimization of a flawed value/belief system... I won't go as far to say that all Muslims are scavengers, but almost all of them do behave in a manner that isn't consistent with globally accepted morals and values...
Please notice, you responded to a generalization with a generalization that is just as wrong, ironic huh?
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Nope...Doesn't sound like Islam to me. Sorry.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Thats kinda funny since those teachings are a part of islam. Islam encompasses all of judaism and christianity. Thats why its so hypocritical that they currently look down on those 2 religions. In the past Islam was a unifying force in the middle east. Under the old Caliphates all religions were tolerated and judaism and christianity actually embraced.
I'm not religous in the least. I don't believe theres a god anymore than i believe theres a magic purple bunny rabbit that restocks my tequila but tolerance and respect are the precursors and pre-requisites to freedom.
Make a difference!
puhleze aldaron. I can find a few really nasty bible versus too. Posting bible versus doesn't prove anything.
==========================
Well, Mohammad did intend for the Koran to kind of accompany the New & Old testament. Spoke about how they(Muslims) should look to the Bible for extra guidance.
So yah, it is messed up that they hate Jews and Christians so much, and how much they distorted it: Mohammad was a warlord, but even he did not intend for them to hate so many people.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
I think it's important to note something here...If it can be proven that the artists intent was to incite rioting then i would agree with you. However, there has to be a clear intent. As I understand it, those images were an artistic expression printed as satire from an artist.
shouting fire in a crowded theater when there is not fire is not artistic expression nor is it satire. It's one thing only, trying to incite a riot. The U.S. courts agree with this.
The original artist intention was not to incite but given the initial reaction the only plausible motive for the rest of the printings is to do exactly that.
I have a very very hard time believing that the artist and newspaper actually wanted to cause a riot.
Even the Denmark government apologized for the offensivness of the articles but they still maintain it is a matter of free speech. Bushie called Denmark today to give our support to Denmark. Clearly the civilized part of the world sees this as a free speech issue too.
If you don't agree then we'll agree to disagree...but I really think denmark and us are on the right side of this issue.
==========================
puhleze aldaron. I can find a few really nasty bible versus too. Posting bible versus doesn't prove anything.
Like the gluttonous king who has his belly cut open by Isiah, I believe? Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth and etc...
People, reading the entire post really helps with a hot-button topic like this... It has been explained by a rather profound post of mine that Judaism and Islam are still largely in the 'Old Ways', or the 'Old Testament' if you will... They never had their 'softening of the scripture' like Christians did...
Caps that are used in this post are for EMPHASIS ONLY and is not used for yelling as I dont like using itallics.
Oh by the way I would love for someone to take this reply and pick it apart for me good or bad.
As much as we (Americans) think that the world is getting smaller due to telecommunications and the internet. We tend to think that most of the world is up to speed with current events as much as we are. Sadly most of the world isn't. I highly doubt that all these protesters get CNN,Foxnews, BBC or any other media outlet other than Aljazzer. <----sorry for the butchered spelling of that. Also its kinda hard for the protesting people (muslems) not to get mad at exploits of Mohammeed when for all intensive purposes there not even allowed BY THERE OWN GOVERNMENT to have free speech and to make fun of Mohammed themselves. Who knows maybe thats forbidden in the Koran though im not sure.
IF YOUR JUST GLANCING AT THIS REPLY THAN JUST READ THIS PLEASE <---caps emphasis not yelling
Maybe these riots are just the expulsion of angst toward there respective governments. example.....
Here in America its quite different as most of you already know. I'd bet you that if you took those same protesters and asked them if they would want to live in the U.S.A. even with T.V. companies that air shows like American Dad, Family Guy, and The Simpsons which all depict muslems in a degrading way. ( YES ITS DEGRADING BUT I PERSONALY THINK ITS PRETTY DANMED FUNNY TOO) I'm sure those protesting muslems if they were allowed over here would get some raised eyebrows, and maybe even some harrassment from completely ignorant people. I'm sure that some of them think were ignorant too about somethings, but they would be free to talk about it as well. I'd bet you they all would want to live here anyway because they could warship there God in whatever way they would want too and they could interpret the Koran anyway they see fit REGARDLESS of the views of there religious peers. Do you see the disparity.... why are these muslems so mad at the cartoon makers when if they were given a chance to live in America they would even if this sort of "Muslem Bashing" happens every single day in the U.S.A.???? Sounds kinda interesting to me.
"raises an eyebrow"
So who are these angry protesters TRULY mad at..... some danish reporter who put up some degrading cartoons about Mohammed in there own press LEGALLY MIND YOU or are they really mad at their own government and are just letting out their frustrations on people because they dont have the same rights as the Danish people do. Yes there are other ways of getting out frustrations but I really sincerely doubt that most contries in the middle east even have a place of discourse for people to be heard. So when people in those countries get mad they just riot. After all I dont think the countries in which these protestors reside even want to stop them anyhow.
One other thing too as Christians in the U.S.A. are constantly being bashed in the media (Family Guy, Robot Chicken, etc) do you see Christians causing riots... nope. Someone else replied to this post above and its true... (THIS IS NOT AN EXACT QUOTE) "every religion has is fanatics" yes I agree christians as well as other people of other religous affiliations have caused acts of violence. (David Koresh anyone) But I do think my point is valid. Its hypocrifal to start a riot on one hand but wouldnt do it in another country if the curcumstances were the same. (even worse in some cases If you've seen the the cartoon american dad where the dad in the episode goes to the middle east you would see what I mean, or the episode of Robot Chicken with Noah and the ark pretty damned funny though I would consider myself beliving in Jesus yet I even laugh at some of that stuff I mean I'm only human
I'll give you all who patiently read all of this a quote that I've searched long and hard for on the net hope you like it......
"Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."
Jefferson, Thomas 3rd President of the United States (1801-1809)
http://www.learningtogive.org/search/quotes/Display_Quotes.asp?subject_id=71&search_type=subject thats the site I got this quote from thank you wholehartedly for reading this reply
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Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Looks like you got caught in your own trap I'm afraid. Mainstream 'Latter Day Saints' church goes, who call themselves Mormons because that the name of the testament they follow, actually DONT practice polygamy, and abolished it a long time ago. It's the extremists that practice polygamy, mistreat women, and act zealously.
The Mormons practiced polygamy in the pioneer days because there were far more many women than men, and it was a way for the men to look after the women so they didn't have to go live on their own. (Which made great sense during those times, if you think about it.) However, the practice of polygamy was abolished once things settled down and there was no need for women to be watched over so much by the men. The people you made your generalization about, are infact the extremists who broke off from the church.
Didn't mean to go off on a rant or anything, heh. Just make sure that if you're gonna chastise someone for making a generalization, don't do it yourself.
Edit: edited to make it sound less like an attack, just wanted to point out a flaw, not insult anyone, heh
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Looks like you got caught in your own trap I'm afraid. Mainstream 'Latter Day Saints' church goes, who call themselves Mormons because that the name of the testament they follow, actually DONT practice polygamy, and abolished it a long time ago. It's the extremists that practice polygamy, mistreat women, and act zealously.
The Mormons practiced polygamy in the pioneer days because there were far more many women than men, and it was a way for the men to look after the women so they didn't have to go live on their own. (Which made great sense during those times, if you think about it.) However, the practice of polygamy was abolished once things settled down and there was no need for women to be watched over so much by the men. The people you made your generalization about, are infact the extremists who broke off from the church.
Didn't mean to go off on a rant or anything, heh. Just make sure that if you're gonna chastise someone for making a generalization, don't do it yourself.
Edit: edited to make it sound less like an attack, just wanted to point out a flaw, not insult anyone, heh
I stand corrected, I should have stated: "Islams are more like the extreme instances of Mormons and Latter Day Saints church goers"... This would have been more accurate... Just because puligamy was done away with, this doesn't take away the fact that the Mormons still have some pretty sordid views on reality...
You know absolutely nothing about mormons. Yes, some mormons are extreme and almost fanatic, but they don't hurt others. One of their beliefs is that the claim right to freely pratice mormonisme, while recognizing other the same right. Another one is that you have to follow the laws of the land.
--------------------------------------------
David Koresh never caused acts of violence. It was called a siege for a reason. He was the defender, not the attacker.
I just had to point that out.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
i think the whole thing is silly. imo, people take everything (especially religion) way to seriously. but lets look at this from a different point of view shall we?
if a paper in a muslim country printed caricatures (sp?!) if jesus and all around the world christians violently rioted in the streets and attacked that countries embassies...how would the world react? my first inclination would be that everyone would go "hey! sit down and shut up! its not that bad! its a freakin picture!" talks would ensue and everything would work itself out. look what happened when sinead o'connor tore up a picture of the pope on live television all those years ago. yeah people were mad, BUT they weren't rioting in the streets of ireland over it.
however, since the muslims are upset everyone kinda expects them to riot and get violent so we dont say anything for fear of drawing their attention to ourselves. so we just sit back and let them trash whatever and hurt or kill however many "innocents" they need to in order for the whole thing to blow over. which is just ridiculous.
the muslim leaders in the more "civilized" regions of the world keep crying foul because everyone else looks at their follows like you would a rabid dog...with caution and fear. i know that most muslims in the world arent like that but unfortunately for them the "fringe minority" seems to be getting all the press. so that is how the world views them. if they truely want to be seen for what their leaders say they are, peace-loving and non-violent, then they need to step up and tell their extremist buddies to chill out. their refusal to do so acts like a silent endorsement to the outside world.
course that just my opinion...i coule be wrong.
Edit: Edited to take out the stuff in reference to the deleted post above.
Lets just say that I think it's best if people know what they're talking about before they bash a religion. Which may or may not be one of the central points of the whole problem with the cartoons
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
i get really quite pissed off with islamic extremists. i've got no problem with normal religious people, but these pillocks trying to fight a jihad in this day and age make me laugh! how primitive do they want to be? islam is a very young religion, and is currently going through its 'teething' phase, whereby it feels it should kill everyone and generally act like a 3 year old kid (just as christianity did in the crusades).
it just surprises me that in this day and age, with all the scientific and historical knowledge we now hold, that people can still use a religion as an excuse to act like maniacs.
part of me says "why the hell cant we take the piss out of their religion, they're extremists continuously attack the western way of life both physically and verbally, so why cant we do the same?" and the other part of me does think it was a stupid move by the danish. its not because i think its something we shouldnt joke about, its more because i feel asthough its giving idiots and excuse to act like idiots, and theres nothing we can do about it.
Great Debate guys THANKS! Im always pleased at the level of discussion that can be had here with so little genuine animosity. We are a bloody credit to our respective cultures and an example for the mindless loonies we are discussing in this thread.
FT you have got me thinking as usual. Your quite right about the office example, but Im glad you see the point Im trying to make, however badly I do it LOL
I liked some of the bible quotes, especially since I got to thinking last night. What would Jesus have to say about this ?
Im inclined to think he would have a giggle at the cartoons, but advise the creators that its not a good idea to show them to anyone who might be offended. I think hed say to the extremists who are killing anyone in sight, because they can... Chill the $#@% out! except in a more Jesus kind of way.
Im really worried that the world seems to be a on a one way ride to a religious war. The poeple at both ends of the spectrums seem very ok with the idea of whipping their followers into a frenzy from which there is only one way out.
I guess I see this cartoon as just "putting out the fire with gasoline" and I know that things are never going to calm down as long as both sides keeping poking each other.
Why cant we all just get long ?
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http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I take that post as a kind of closure of the thread. But I will add this. This is a statement released by Eu, Un and Organization of the Islamic Conference (57 Islamic countries).
S042/06
JOINT STATEMENT BY THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE UNITED
NATIONS, THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE ORGANIZATION OF THE
ISLAMIC CONFERENCE AND THE HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR
COMMON FOREIGN AND SECURITY POLICY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION
We are deeply alarmed at the repercussions of the publication in Denmark several months
ago of insulting caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed and their subsequent republication
by some other European newspapers and at the violent acts that have occurred in reaction
to them.
The anguish in the Muslim World at the publication of these offensive caricatures is
shared by all individuals and communities who recognize the sensitivity of deeply held
religious belief. In all societies there is a need to show sensitivity and responsibility in
treating issues of special significance for the adherents of any particular faith, even by
those who do not share the belief in question.
We fully uphold the right of free speech. But we understand the deep hurt and widespread
indignation felt in the Muslim World. We believe freedom of the press entails
responsibility and discretion, and should respect the beliefs and tenets of all religions.
But we also believe the recent violent acts surpass the limits of peaceful protest. In
particular, we strongly condemn the deplorable attacks on diplomatic missions that have
occurred in Damascus, Beirut and elsewhere. Aggression against life and property can
only damage the image of a peaceful Islam. We call on the authorities of all countries to
protect all diplomatic premises and foreign citizens against unlawful attack.
These events make the need for renewed dialogue, among and between communities of
different faiths and authorities of different countries, all the more urgent. We call on them
to appeal for restraint and calm, in the spirit of friendship and mutual respect.
Kofi A. Annan
Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu
Javier Solana
7 February 2006
Found:
http://ue.eu.int/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/en/declarations/88344.pdf
I have always liked Kofi Anan....
Seems to me like he summed things up pretty well yet again.
Nice post Pheonixs
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http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
While it's certainly within the rights of the press to publish such a cartoon, it definately shows extremely poor judgement. Why antagonize a community we so desperately need to gain good relations with?
Far be it from me to speak against humanity's sense of humor, but defacing Mohammad is one of the worst insults you can throw at a Muslim- I'm talking about 1300 years of tradition.
David Koresh never caused acts of violence. It was called a siege for a reason. He was the defender, not the attacker.
I just had to point that out.
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Well I guess that time.com you know that little magazine called TIME reported this...
"By 1991 Koresh was also traveling to La Verne, California, where in a gated house he established what police called a ''women's dormitory'' for 18 ''wives.'' When neighbors reported that one of them was 12 years old, police launched a child-molestation investigation against Koresh that is still open."
This this the site I got the info from
http://www.time.com/time/daily/newsfiles/waco/031593.html
Yes I would consider David Koresh a VIOLENT extremist. To have sex with 12 yr old girls is violent. I cant believe that you could actually try to point that out that he was the defender. Having sex with little girls is offending and he was on the offense if you would read the whole article. Should have David Koresh and his followers got burned alive NO. Janet Reno had no idea of what she was doing. Having the swat dudes or whoever were attacking the compound use incinedary(<--sorry for the spelling) grenades instead of tear gas was plain stupid. Yes the U.S. government acted completely wrong in the situation and innocent lives were lost. All David Koresh had to do was turn himself in and get his day in court but he was crazy anyways. Having multple wives is bad enough having 12 yr old girls as wives/sex partners is just plain sick. I would really like a post back from this Aldaron dude.
The whole reason why I mentioned David Koresh in my other post is.............
David Koresh had no excuse to act the way he did for the cause of religion just as these protesters dont have the right to harm individuals to promote a religious cause. The crusades were violent yes but also that was a time when people were heavily ignorant and used religion PRIMARILY as an excuse to wage wars.
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
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Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Well if anyone has done any reading about Denmark is that the Muslims were stupid enough to go there.. No offence but Denmark is a Liberal open society, and is very secular society to add. Also the Danish are know for thier drinking which the muslims obviously dont like very much. All it is a clash of Culture and religion, plus the muslims are making a very bad reputation, and most of the world do think muslims are terriost, but thats not true they are peaceful.. Alll im trying to say is that the muslims really need to change thier act and kick out the religios leaders because they arnt teaching the true basis of Islam..
double post
So far i have seen a lot of different readers letters from a lot of newspapers here in Denmark when it comes to drawing Mohammed,and i'm not sure which one is right.
Some say it's totally out of the question to draw mohammed.
Some say muslims can draw him as a nonprophet,but muslims is not allowed to draw him after he became a prophet and everyone else can do as they please because it's not mentioned in the quoran that Christians or any other religions is not allowed to draw him.
Personally i think the last one is the most accurate.
It sounds most logical to me that it's the muslims who is or is not allowed to draw him.Why would the Quoran refuse every other religion not to draw him,because they most likely don't care about what the Quoran says.
So if that's the case nothing wrong has happened because the drawings were drawn by an "infidel" from Denmark,so again it all boils down to bad jugdement or not.
The cartoons are not directed at the majority of all muslims,those who live a normal life like the rest of us,but they are directed towards those sick people blowing up people using suicidebombs,terroism and so on.
Islam under the influence of radical fundementalists is indeed a violent religion but so were the Christians during the crusades.
Christianity grew up and moved on and maybe it's time for Islam to move on too and stop all those nutcases that is killing in Islams name.
It's quite simple.
As long as those Islamic fanatics continue to suicidebomb the world in the name of Islam,most people are going to keep questioning Islam as a peaceful religion.
And if there were no fanatic suicidebombers there would not have been any cartoons published like Jyllands Posten did.
___________________________________________
David Koresh never caused acts of violence. It was called a siege for a reason. He was the defender, not the attacker.
I just had to point that out.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I guess that time.com you know that little magazine called TIME reported this...
"By 1991 Koresh was also traveling to La Verne, California, where in a gated house he established what police called a ''women's dormitory'' for 18 ''wives.'' When neighbors reported that one of them was 12 years old, police launched a child-molestation investigation against Koresh that is still open."
This this the site I got the info from
http://www.time.com/time/daily/newsfiles/waco/031593.html
Yes I would consider David Koresh a VIOLENT extremist. To have sex with 12 yr old girls is violent. I cant believe that you could actually try to point that out that he was the defender. Having sex with little girls is offending and he was on the offense if you would read the whole article. Should have David Koresh and his followers got burned alive NO. Janet Reno had no idea of what she was doing. Having the swat dudes or whoever were attacking the compound use incinedary(<--sorry for the spelling) grenades instead of tear gas was plain stupid. Yes the U.S. government acted completely wrong in the situation and innocent lives were lost. All David Koresh had to do was turn himself in and get his day in court but he was crazy anyways. Having multple wives is bad enough having 12 yr old girls as wives/sex partners is just plain sick. I would really like a post back from this Aldaron dude.
The whole reason why I mentioned David Koresh in my other post is.............
David Koresh had no excuse to act the way he did for the cause of religion just as these protesters dont have the right to harm individuals to promote a religious cause. The crusades were violent yes but also that was a time when people were heavily ignorant and used religion PRIMARILY as an excuse to wage wars.
The moral equivalist Democrats still trying to prosecute the dead Koresch huh? Just like Milosovich still hasnt been prosecuted of anything yet.
Lets review:
-War started by Clinton (Democrat), no prosecution of wrongdoing of Milosovich in the Hague.
-Murdering a bunch of christians, Koresch still havent been found guilty of anything.
Democrats=evil.