If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
Gambling is very clearly defined... and it F2P games are not it. Did you know that in Korea, before launch, Diablo III was determined to be gambling, and had to be modified to operate legally? (i.e. a P2P game was gambling, but F2P was not).
Tricks for getting consumers to buy are common, here is a recent article on this:
I am not saying that this type of behavior is always good. However, I am saying that it is common, for all sorts of business. F2P is generally less problematic than many others, and is mostly guilty of crimes imagined by its accusers (i.e. the facts do not back up the claims).
Nice BS answer there, as you just happened to leave out this Google search worth of answers WHY KOREA HAD AN ISSUE WITH DIABLO III... but yeah, try another example...
How does that go against GeezerGamer's post in the first place? "Free to Play' generally is worse than gambling to begin with, as there is no winning any money back at all. The Diablo III example is worse still, as real life money is directly being involved.
At some point in the next 10 to 20 years, it is likely governments will be stepping in on these "Free to Play" business model companies and their practices. With any luck, it will be to curb the exploitative nature of said practices. In the worst case scenario, governments will simply want their cut. At some point however, some company or companies will take note of the proper way to implement the "Free to Play" business model. Those companies will do very well given the current climate.
If you understand what gambling is, you would understand why F2P games are not gambling. I have gone as far as linking you to a google search for information on an actual real world case where this was recently decided. You don't have to take my word for it, you can look at an actual example.
The definition of gambling is quite old. It is older than video games (or computers for that matter). It is very clear how this old definition is applied to modern technology, and is not likely to change.
As for F2P companies... well, I have given you a well documented example of how P2P has a gambling problem... so perhaps you should reconsider whether this issue has any relation to F2P (or rather is it actually a relation to ALL gaming).
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
Gambling is very clearly defined... and it F2P games are not it. Did you know that in Korea, before launch, Diablo III was determined to be gambling, and had to be modified to operate legally? (i.e. a P2P game was gambling, but F2P was not).
Tricks for getting consumers to buy are common, here is a recent article on this:
I am not saying that this type of behavior is always good. However, I am saying that it is common, for all sorts of business. F2P is generally less problematic than many others, and is mostly guilty of crimes imagined by its accusers (i.e. the facts do not back up the claims).
Nice BS answer there, as you just happened to leave out this Google search worth of answers WHY KOREA HAD AN ISSUE WITH DIABLO III... but yeah, try another example...
How does that go against GeezerGamer's post in the first place? "Free to Play' generally is worse than gambling to begin with, as there is no winning any money back at all. The Diablo III example is worse still, as real life money is directly being involved.
At some point in the next 10 to 20 years, it is likely governments will be stepping in on these "Free to Play" business model companies and their practices. With any luck, it will be to curb the exploitative nature of said practices. In the worst case scenario, governments will simply want their cut. At some point however, some company or companies will take note of the proper way to implement the "Free to Play" business model. Those companies will do very well given the current climate.
People hope for governments to step in, but there not so many business model out there are free and open people get explored like facebook is one. Even if it happen governments step in, how marketing works, there find new way to make money.
Only way to stop practices is changing how we look at games and is content, do we want to spend or slave away are time each week grinding away, that both free to play and sub model have a problem atm and not changing.
Like free to play make people spend more money if there game play is all about that spend more.
Then Sub, slave away missing out work and real life just to spend 80 or more hours a week just to get a new epic item.
Even way business model of many types is to in trap people in for more there money there many people can't stop.
I feel like a lot of you don't understand why the government even cares at all about gambling and casinos. It's because they can charge the casinos taxes and permits fees and then they can tax any winnings someone takes home with them. They get to continuously tax the same money because usually gamblers come back the next week and use that same money they won to win more money. Online and underground gambling is usually illegal because it's difficult to tax, that the only reason. It's not to save the people from their stupidity, after all the government themselves run their own "stupid tax" (The Lottery).
Online free to play games is not gambling because you are not winning taxable income by games of chance, until that changes the government could care less.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
If you look up gamble in the dictionary, the 1st example specifically references "for money" However, the 2nd example does not. "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result." Seems to me that these F2P items do fit the definition of gambling according to the dictionary. But loopholes in the law allow it.
Let's cut the shit. These companies are preying on the same psychological response in people that casinos use. Let's not even bring up that many of these games are preying on minors.
Well isn't that every single mmo period, and nearly every other game too. Ever hear of risk vs reward?
Raiding: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Dungeon runs: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Fight mobs: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Try for superior crafting result: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Open a trading card game pack: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Buy a new console box: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Buy a console game:"Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Play any Ubisoft title the first week it launches: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
PvP: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Buy a sub game before getting to try it: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Open the front door: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Cook food: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Go to sleep in hopes of waking up: "Take risky action in the hope of a desired result."
Good grief. Life is a gamble and is preying on the same psychological response casinos use. It should be regulated by the EU! Think of the children and antitrust!
Let's do please cut the shit and stop the posturing like there are a bunch of helpless victims here. A video game is a waste of time and money. It's a the epitome of a first world leisure activity. Stop trying to moralize it.
You have completely missed the context here. The context is "Cash Shop" i.e. "cash" i.e. real money. You have omitted that aspect of the game from your examples. Let alone how they targets minors. If I need to spend real money in order to face off against RNG to do any of the things you mentioned above, then yeah, it's gambling. The Govt. doesn't see it that way, But the psychologists who design these systems sure as hell do.
I really don't think it can be called scamming, sure It's shitty business practice, but i can't see it being illegal, the only way to prevent these systems is to not support them, and with these games surviving people apparently are.
I'd love to know why as well, absolutely boggles my mind
There has been a few articles and to sum it up in one word....narcissism.
A couple of companies have stated that the "whales" is what makes them money. As long as there are people out there who are willing to pay money to have a few extra glowies on their armor/weapon/pet/ et.al. , these companies are going to provide them a means for their money to soon be parted with them.
Too many old gamers like myself have tilted at that windmill and been rebuffed too many times, even by the gaming journalists/sites as well, to bother with it anymore. Last MMO I played? ESO for 3 months, I couldn't do the faction grinding thing and wasn't overly impressed by it to go back after they did away with it. So I don't play any MMO's currently and not really looking to either. Watching EQNext and Pathfinder and that is about it. I think that eventually this style of whale gaming will die out, just got to wait and see, and resign yourself to if it doesn't, they're just games anyways.
I don't think you've played many F2P MMOs. You're talking as if the only thing in cash shops were vanity items. Only the most benign F2P games work that way nowadays.
The big trend is lock boxes that can provide you with items that have real game play value. They sell desirable character classes and world areas, and enough desirable gear to start good "pay to win" debates. They aren't going after just the silly and vain. They are going after anyone who likes the game enough to want to get a full MMO experience out of it. And most of them will still not give you everything if you use their ubiquitous sub option... they want you to sub and will still tempt you to spend more.
If you enjoy the game otherwise, It actually takes a lot of self control to play them and never spend a penny... and I'm very skeptical of the people who claim to play them for any significant amount of time and never pay anything.
Their only true value is the "play before you pay" trial-like aspect.
No, what's on the other side of that lock box? Usually some "special looking" mount/pet/armor/weapon. Sparkly pixels to feed your narcissism. Though I will readily admit I don't play F2P mmo's per se, I do play Planetside and EQ landmark, and other than the original buy in packages, I have not spent any money at all on EQL, and probably less than 40 on PS2, I had to have a skull face and running lights on my sundy and vanguards.. What was I saying about narcissism again? ....
But yes, I have ran into the lockboxes a few years ago and couldn't believe it was being done. I mean, I work in computers, and there is no way you could get me to gamble online. <-- stress the period. Hell, my last trip to vegas was my last trip to vegas because most of the stuff there is pointed to video gambling, I couldn't find a live dealer for less then $20 a hand, and consequently, I didn't gamble hardly any at all. (this was on the strip, I did manage to find a $10 off the strip)
Either way, what my daddy told me when I was knee high to a grasshopper still holds true. Aint nothing in this world for free and anyone offering you something free is looking for a shortcut to your wallet.
For me, I just enjoy paying a subscription and being assured that I'm getting all the content and that 'time' is the only gate. (No that doesn't mean you Destiny because you gate everything) I'm not sure how f2p is getting away with so much of this actual priced gating. I gotta say, do people who continually play Keno find that they are getting scammed?
Originally posted by chakalaka For me, I just enjoy paying a subscription and being assured that I'm getting all the content and that 'time' is the only gate. (No that doesn't mean you Destiny because you gate everything) I'm not sure how f2p is getting away with so much of this actual priced gating. I gotta say, do people who continually play Keno find that they are getting scammed?
I payed my subscription long time and thinking I have all the content open for me, but is not, is more gated in time or skill level, I can be the worst player in the world the game as they get people hooked in trying give you less items for a grind. but my sub fee mean noting if the game hold you back.
What even that be f2p or sub there all gate people in some way to keep you longer. But I learn not to hope how much content I can get my money worth, I learn what to avoid and see if I am getting my money with for playing content more open to me.
As much as I dislike many F2P revenue models, I am in the firm camp that F2P games are still designed to generate profit. They aren't there as non-profit organizations. At some point you have to expect to be put into a position that gets you thinking about spending some cash. It's not a scam, it's business, and like any business, sometimes you hit the right note, and sometimes not. An MMOs success will rest on how they implement their strategy.
Having said that, some games definitely have better revenue models than others. Of course, much of the model depends on the game and how the mechanics work. Also, it is unrealistic to say that because X revenue method will work for one game, it will work for games. Things just don't work that way.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
I dunno, could it be that there is a source of confusion around publishers advertising that their games are free but they really aren't?
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
I dunno, could it be that there is a source of confusion around publishers advertising that their games are free but they really aren't?
This depends on what you consider "playing" to mean. Is it logging in and killing some enemies? Maybe do a dungeon? Or does "playing" inherently mean you have access to everything included?
Back to the gambling argument... Casino's pay out real money, MMOs pay out virtual items, which generally you do get SOMETHING for your money with a chance at something worth far more than what you paid for the ticket or RNG box.
Fronting money for Early Access games or Star Citizen is more of a gamble if you ask me.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
A better question is why gaming websites who are supposed to be the fair and balanced voices between consumer/publisher don't speak out more often.
These developers are treading into "scammer" territory with the unfinished product, lying about offerings, and putting nasty immersion breaking pay gates that rival that of seedy mobile games. OR they're charging premium console box prices + monthly fee + cash shop and can't even sustain a reasonable content/feature schedule.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
F2P is not only one with a pay wall, some sub as well if you want content for your level pay up $40 or $60 to keep playing for your fun.
Anyhow there some people think free to play out there think free to play means everything is free, it mean you are free to play when if pay to win, cash grab, shady, all the type people call it, at end the the day there still free to play.
I am not going to say I like F2P better, but there are advantages to this model. For instance, the try before you buy aspect. As well as the accessibility, you don't need to re-sub just to login.
F2P can be done horribly wrong, ex: Vindictus or Lotro with best in slot gear in cash shop or significant paywalls.
Mediocre: Archeage - its P2W if you spend lots of real money and time in the game.
Fair and fun: Rift & Tera - good gear is in cash shop, but it's not best in slot and it is expensive.
Generous: Aion - only cosmetics and small boosts are available in cash shop.
B2P with cosmetic is another great option assuming the character models and outfits are well designed
However, I have regretted the $50 I spent for Guild Wars 2, ESO, Wildstar, and Warlords. So there is buy to play models that made me feel scammed. Because I couldn't try before buying. ESO not as much, as it does seem they are working hard to improve the aspects I didn't appreciate about it."
I have been playing Lotro since Beta So Fair Warning I am a bit of a FAN boy. However. I Don't feel the F2P model they market is unfair. They did it with Dungeons and Dragons online and it kept both games alive.
I was a Founder but did not buy a lifetime subscription which is a BUMMER! However I pay $9.99 a month and get all the quest packages and content free. Plus I get 750 turbine points. Thats How I choose to enjoy my game.
I have a friend who is a fanatic about never paying a penny. So She creates Characters on every server and levels them up to about level 20 and deletes them, This pays for all of the content for her mains.
Lotro has no REAL gear you can buy. You have to earn your gear by playing the game. You can also earn Lotro points by playing an INSANE amount or you can spend about $20.00 a year for the content packs. Or you can choose not to play the quest packs at all and just grind and Skirmish. Lotro does not FORCE you to spend money EXCEPT when it releases an EXPANSION! Then you can buy these with Lotro Points or money.
Just My 2 cents. I love F2P games BTW because I can experience much of the game before I invest a great deal of time (Which at my age is more valuable than money) and money, for nothing. It also entices me to try those games. Many of which are games I play still on occasion and even invest a little money in.
Free 2 Play is not really ever Free to Play forever. It's Free to play until you want to invest part of yourself.
This conversation has really become stale. It's been covered quite well and I was pleasantly surprised how well it went for a long time before people starting resorting to calling people retards as their main arguement (I'm the one who reported that btw). Anyway I thinks pretty much all has been said at this point and all that's really left in the way of disagreements is turning into rehashing the same points that were already resolved earlier or just plain insulting peoples intelligence which has also been done earlier.
This conversation has really become stale. It's been covered quite well and I was pleasantly surprised how well it went for a long time before people starting resorting to calling people retards as their main arguement (I'm the one who reported that btw). Anyway I thinks pretty much all has been said at this point and all that's really left in the way of disagreements is turning into rehashing the same points that were already resolved earlier or just plain insulting peoples intelligence which has also been done earlier.
This conversation is far from over. It has most certainly not been covered quite enough, as the reasons behind why to have this conversation in the first place are still in abundance. Why bother mentioning that?
Here is an idea. Obviously "Free to Play" along with "Pay to Win" along with "Gambling Features" (although, more accurately, "Randomness Implemented in less than appropriate ways') all contribute to this question being asked in the first place...
"Why are more gamers not speaking out against Free to Play implemented as a way to exploit players?"
All our arguments aside on that particular point... This naturally brings us to another question...
"What can we actually do against this exploitative Free to Play implementation?"
...And it is there, that this conversation is far from over.
Why bother mentioning it? Because it's all been said in the thread already.
The gambling thing has been raised, most people agreed it was exploitative in nature and that governments would end up regulating it or atleast should, especially when they prey on minors. We talked about how the F2P marketing was misleading for the most part and how some games and apps are worse than others. We mentioned that there could be better ways to implement a F2P game and some weren't so bad and we mentioned that if they didn't market themselves as something they are not F2P and simply were a bit more honest about it like marketing as a free trial or free sample it would alleviate the issue somewhat. We mentioned how minors, mentally ill and impulse buyers are the ones who are most vulnerable and even if it doesn't affect us personally we can still care. We mentioned various reasons people didn't speak up against it and I'll add another, shame of being scammed when it is considered "stupid" but even that isn't really anything new. This is just what I remember from reading the thread from start to finish, I'm sure I'm missing other things too.
You may be happy to keep trying to persuade those who blame the gamer but their arguements are nothing new either and if they aren't convinced already than dare I say I think you're waisting your time. There is value in this thread but not much additional value is being added. You do what you want but I'm about done here.
People hope for governments to step in, but there not so many business model out there are free and open people get explored like facebook is one. Even if it happen governments step in, how marketing works, there find new way to make money.
Only way to stop practices is changing how we look at games and is content, do we want to spend or slave away are time each week grinding away, that both free to play and sub model have a problem atm and not changing.
Like free to play make people spend more money if there game play is all about that spend more.
Then Sub, slave away missing out work and real life just to spend 80 or more hours a week just to get a new epic item.
Even way business model of many types is to in trap people in for more there money there many people can't stop.
I have already referenced a recent example of a government stepping in. This action was for a P2P game. The government action was not concerned with the business model, but rather the actions that the company were taking, and their effects on the people (whom the government represents).
You should also realize that subs are the most common source of revenue for F2P in the west (i.e. F2P is sub based). The difference between F2P and P2P is WHEN you pay the sub..
In case you missed it, the words "WHY KOREA HAS AN ISSUE WITH DIABLO III" you quoted... is a link.
Whereas the basic concept of the "Free to Play" business model is not in and of itself gambling, many implemented features within that same business model are.
It is not an issue with all gaming. it is not actually an issue with the "Free to Play" business model in and of itself. It is again, the many implemented features we see used through that business model, of which are used to further exploit their customer base as gambling features. And yes, I did say to "further exploit," as there are other features which exploit their customers which are not gambling.
The "Free to Play" business model could in fact be a very win-win business model for everyone, companies and players. The companies however, still choose to exploit their player base in droves.
I apologize. I missed the link.
You are accusing F2P of using unique concepts, which are similar to gambling. I have just shown you that those same concepts were ACTUALLY found to be gambling in a P2P game... and the evidence that they are present in almost all online games, regardless of business model.
Please explain how this behavior is exploitive for one model, but not exploitive for another. Also explain why governments have felt it necessary to take action for what you are calling non exploitive... but not take action for what you are calling exploitive.
Comments
If you understand what gambling is, you would understand why F2P games are not gambling. I have gone as far as linking you to a google search for information on an actual real world case where this was recently decided. You don't have to take my word for it, you can look at an actual example.
The definition of gambling is quite old. It is older than video games (or computers for that matter). It is very clear how this old definition is applied to modern technology, and is not likely to change.
As for F2P companies... well, I have given you a well documented example of how P2P has a gambling problem... so perhaps you should reconsider whether this issue has any relation to F2P (or rather is it actually a relation to ALL gaming).
People hope for governments to step in, but there not so many business model out there are free and open people get explored like facebook is one. Even if it happen governments step in, how marketing works, there find new way to make money.
Only way to stop practices is changing how we look at games and is content, do we want to spend or slave away are time each week grinding away, that both free to play and sub model have a problem atm and not changing.
Like free to play make people spend more money if there game play is all about that spend more.
Then Sub, slave away missing out work and real life just to spend 80 or more hours a week just to get a new epic item.
Even way business model of many types is to in trap people in for more there money there many people can't stop.
I feel like a lot of you don't understand why the government even cares at all about gambling and casinos. It's because they can charge the casinos taxes and permits fees and then they can tax any winnings someone takes home with them. They get to continuously tax the same money because usually gamblers come back the next week and use that same money they won to win more money. Online and underground gambling is usually illegal because it's difficult to tax, that the only reason. It's not to save the people from their stupidity, after all the government themselves run their own "stupid tax" (The Lottery).
Online free to play games is not gambling because you are not winning taxable income by games of chance, until that changes the government could care less.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You have completely missed the context here. The context is "Cash Shop" i.e. "cash" i.e. real money. You have omitted that aspect of the game from your examples. Let alone how they targets minors. If I need to spend real money in order to face off against RNG to do any of the things you mentioned above, then yeah, it's gambling. The Govt. doesn't see it that way, But the psychologists who design these systems sure as hell do.
No, what's on the other side of that lock box? Usually some "special looking" mount/pet/armor/weapon. Sparkly pixels to feed your narcissism. Though I will readily admit I don't play F2P mmo's per se, I do play Planetside and EQ landmark, and other than the original buy in packages, I have not spent any money at all on EQL, and probably less than 40 on PS2, I had to have a skull face and running lights on my sundy and vanguards.. What was I saying about narcissism again? ....
But yes, I have ran into the lockboxes a few years ago and couldn't believe it was being done. I mean, I work in computers, and there is no way you could get me to gamble online. <-- stress the period. Hell, my last trip to vegas was my last trip to vegas because most of the stuff there is pointed to video gambling, I couldn't find a live dealer for less then $20 a hand, and consequently, I didn't gamble hardly any at all. (this was on the strip, I did manage to find a $10 off the strip)
Either way, what my daddy told me when I was knee high to a grasshopper still holds true. Aint nothing in this world for free and anyone offering you something free is looking for a shortcut to your wallet.
I payed my subscription long time and thinking I have all the content open for me, but is not, is more gated in time or skill level, I can be the worst player in the world the game as they get people hooked in trying give you less items for a grind. but my sub fee mean noting if the game hold you back.
What even that be f2p or sub there all gate people in some way to keep you longer. But I learn not to hope how much content I can get my money worth, I learn what to avoid and see if I am getting my money with for playing content more open to me.
As much as I dislike many F2P revenue models, I am in the firm camp that F2P games are still designed to generate profit. They aren't there as non-profit organizations. At some point you have to expect to be put into a position that gets you thinking about spending some cash. It's not a scam, it's business, and like any business, sometimes you hit the right note, and sometimes not. An MMOs success will rest on how they implement their strategy.
Having said that, some games definitely have better revenue models than others. Of course, much of the model depends on the game and how the mechanics work. Also, it is unrealistic to say that because X revenue method will work for one game, it will work for games. Things just don't work that way.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
I self identify as a monkey.
I dunno, could it be that there is a source of confusion around publishers advertising that their games are free but they really aren't?
This depends on what you consider "playing" to mean. Is it logging in and killing some enemies? Maybe do a dungeon? Or does "playing" inherently mean you have access to everything included?
Back to the gambling argument... Casino's pay out real money, MMOs pay out virtual items, which generally you do get SOMETHING for your money with a chance at something worth far more than what you paid for the ticket or RNG box.
Fronting money for Early Access games or Star Citizen is more of a gamble if you ask me.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
A better question is why gaming websites who are supposed to be the fair and balanced voices between consumer/publisher don't speak out more often.
These developers are treading into "scammer" territory with the unfinished product, lying about offerings, and putting nasty immersion breaking pay gates that rival that of seedy mobile games. OR they're charging premium console box prices + monthly fee + cash shop and can't even sustain a reasonable content/feature schedule.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
F2P is not only one with a pay wall, some sub as well if you want content for your level pay up $40 or $60 to keep playing for your fun.
Anyhow there some people think free to play out there think free to play means everything is free, it mean you are free to play when if pay to win, cash grab, shady, all the type people call it, at end the the day there still free to play.
I have been playing Lotro since Beta So Fair Warning I am a bit of a FAN boy. However. I Don't feel the F2P model they market is unfair. They did it with Dungeons and Dragons online and it kept both games alive.
I was a Founder but did not buy a lifetime subscription which is a BUMMER! However I pay $9.99 a month and get all the quest packages and content free. Plus I get 750 turbine points. Thats How I choose to enjoy my game.
I have a friend who is a fanatic about never paying a penny. So She creates Characters on every server and levels them up to about level 20 and deletes them, This pays for all of the content for her mains.
Lotro has no REAL gear you can buy. You have to earn your gear by playing the game. You can also earn Lotro points by playing an INSANE amount or you can spend about $20.00 a year for the content packs. Or you can choose not to play the quest packs at all and just grind and Skirmish. Lotro does not FORCE you to spend money EXCEPT when it releases an EXPANSION! Then you can buy these with Lotro Points or money.
Just My 2 cents. I love F2P games BTW because I can experience much of the game before I invest a great deal of time (Which at my age is more valuable than money) and money, for nothing. It also entices me to try those games. Many of which are games I play still on occasion and even invest a little money in.
Free 2 Play is not really ever Free to Play forever. It's Free to play until you want to invest part of yourself.
This conversation has really become stale. It's been covered quite well and I was pleasantly surprised how well it went for a long time before people starting resorting to calling people retards as their main arguement (I'm the one who reported that btw). Anyway I thinks pretty much all has been said at this point and all that's really left in the way of disagreements is turning into rehashing the same points that were already resolved earlier or just plain insulting peoples intelligence which has also been done earlier.
Why bother mentioning it? Because it's all been said in the thread already.
The gambling thing has been raised, most people agreed it was exploitative in nature and that governments would end up regulating it or atleast should, especially when they prey on minors. We talked about how the F2P marketing was misleading for the most part and how some games and apps are worse than others. We mentioned that there could be better ways to implement a F2P game and some weren't so bad and we mentioned that if they didn't market themselves as something they are not F2P and simply were a bit more honest about it like marketing as a free trial or free sample it would alleviate the issue somewhat. We mentioned how minors, mentally ill and impulse buyers are the ones who are most vulnerable and even if it doesn't affect us personally we can still care. We mentioned various reasons people didn't speak up against it and I'll add another, shame of being scammed when it is considered "stupid" but even that isn't really anything new. This is just what I remember from reading the thread from start to finish, I'm sure I'm missing other things too.
You may be happy to keep trying to persuade those who blame the gamer but their arguements are nothing new either and if they aren't convinced already than dare I say I think you're waisting your time. There is value in this thread but not much additional value is being added. You do what you want but I'm about done here.
I have already referenced a recent example of a government stepping in. This action was for a P2P game. The government action was not concerned with the business model, but rather the actions that the company were taking, and their effects on the people (whom the government represents).You should also realize that subs are the most common source of revenue for F2P in the west (i.e. F2P is sub based). The difference between F2P and P2P is WHEN you pay the sub..
I apologize. I missed the link.You are accusing F2P of using unique concepts, which are similar to gambling. I have just shown you that those same concepts were ACTUALLY found to be gambling in a P2P game... and the evidence that they are present in almost all online games, regardless of business model.
Please explain how this behavior is exploitive for one model, but not exploitive for another. Also explain why governments have felt it necessary to take action for what you are calling non exploitive... but not take action for what you are calling exploitive.