Originally posted by Temp0 Regardless of what is best for income or "the brand" as you put it, what kind of non-sense is it that a "brand" should abandon its own legacy and fans? Take any of your favorite games and imagine in the next iteration they completely scrapped everything about it and went some different direction with it. That would be utterly crappy (and it happens more often than it should as is without people suggesting it because THEY were not a fan of what came before) for you wouldn't it?
The initial plan was to make EQNext like EQ.
Somewhere down the line someone at SoE had the bright idea to throw out tab target, throw out trinity, throw out tanking, throw out class dependency, and everything that had anything to do with EQ.
It went south from then on, and here we are, SoE sold off, half their staff fired.
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
This is just like those ESO threads where people argued over who the real Skyrim fans are. The nostalgia is so strong it almost brings a tear to my eye.
Originally posted by Temp0 Regardless of what is best for income or "the brand" as you put it, what kind of non-sense is it that a "brand" should abandon its own legacy and fans? Take any of your favorite games and imagine in the next iteration they completely scrapped everything about it and went some different direction with it. That would be utterly crappy (and it happens more often than it should as is without people suggesting it because THEY were not a fan of what came before) for you wouldn't it?
The initial plan was to make EQNext like EQ.
Somewhere down the line someone at SoE had the bright idea to throw out tab target, throw out trinity, throw out tanking, throw out class dependency, and everything that had anything to do with EQ.
It went south from then on, and here we are, SoE sold off, half their staff fired.
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
EQ fans represents millions of people. Thats like saying a football team only has 30k fans because thats all that showed up to a game.
Somewhere down the line someone at SoE had the bright idea to throw out tab target, throw out trinity, throw out tanking, throw out class dependency, and everything that had anything to do with EQ.
It went south from then on, and here we are, SoE sold off, half their staff fired.
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
Not everyone likes Ninja Gaiden.
Not everyone likes Dark Souls.
People think the series are too hard, ppl don't like the gameplay, etc.
Yet the developers don't betray their fans and suddenly change their franchise and turn it into Super mario. Yet that's what SoE tried to do, and they failed.
Originally posted by Temp0 Regardless of what is best for income or "the brand" as you put it, what kind of non-sense is it that a "brand" should abandon its own legacy and fans? Take any of your favorite games and imagine in the next iteration they completely scrapped everything about it and went some different direction with it. That would be utterly crappy (and it happens more often than it should as is without people suggesting it because THEY were not a fan of what came before) for you wouldn't it?
The initial plan was to make EQNext like EQ.
Somewhere down the line someone at SoE had the bright idea to throw out tab target, throw out trinity, throw out tanking, throw out class dependency, and everything that had anything to do with EQ.
It went south from then on, and here we are, SoE sold off, half their staff fired.
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
Nope....if they made an upgraded EQ I would play it for years. It's what we need now more than ever. Even another version of EQII would do that for me. Not what they have been working on.
If you mean "some changes" as in not to change the structure but the fluidity? Maybe. Otherwise...why reinvent the wheel?
Originally posted by reeereee This is just like those ESO threads where people argued over who the real Skyrim fans are. The nostalgia is so strong it almost brings a tear to my eye.
Exactly....I love how ESO did it...but understand why avid fans were disappointed.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The EQ community dont want EQ Next or EQ3, they want EQ1 and if even 1 single feature or aspect of a new EQ MMO is not exactly as it was in EQ1 from 16 years then they will rise up with pitchforks and a nerd rage that burns like the sun.
Also, does any company really want a community thats as insulting and hateful as this:
Originally posted by Kiyoris Are you saying not enough companies are making stupid themepark WoW clones and easymode korean button mashers yet and we need another one?
How is asking a simple question in any way shape or form insulting and hateful? You are reading far to much into a comment in order to bolster your point. Either that, or you are being overly sensitive. Please explain how that comment was insulting or hateful?
As for those of us who played EQ, I'll be the first to admit that many of us look at it with rose colored glasses. Make no mistake, there were some interesting times, long hours, excessive grinding (by today's standards) and tons of glaring issues that today, would see 3/4 of the player base run to another game. For me, looking back, I overlook those and focus on the actual fun I had while playing. EQ to me was a game of hard work and skill. Something that I feel is lacking in newer MMO's. If you wanted to be one of the best geared, have access to keyed areas in the game and stand out from your peers, you darn well had to earn it in EQ. MMO's now are less about hard work, determination, perseverance and skill and more about parses, having the perfect rotation and in some cases, paying to be uber.
Would I like to see EQN have many of the facets or the old EQ? Absofrikinloutely! I would love open instances so that guilds would fight to be the first to kill Boss_Mob_01. I would love to see solo play be viable, but much less so than grouping. I want to see the return of having to camp a very rare mob for an even rarer drop in order to be able to access top end content. And for the love of (insert your chosen deity here), I would welcome the calls of "Train to zone" or "Camp Check". I would play the hell out of that game. I want EQN to be a shiny new EQ. Now having said that, I know that in order to garner the largest player base they can, and thus make more $$$, it will never be like EQ of old. Today's gamer, for the most part, wants the instant satisfaction, they want their chosen game to understand that they cannot spend 10+ hours online each day, they don't want to have to grind for a few weeks to be able to enter an endgame zone to get the best gear. As I have grown older, I have come to understand this and in some ways agree with it.
Back when EQ was around it had little to no competition. You had what they gave you and had little choice. Now, in order to remain competitive in the MMO market and turn a profit for your shareholders, you must cater to the masses. If EQN was essentially a reskinned EQ with a few twists thrown in, it would fail miserably. No matter how much I want a return to my days of glory, it will never happen. With all the changes in my life since EQ first started (wife, kids, job etc) I would find myself unhappy playing it. As much as it pains me to admit, I have become content being one of the millions who wants to feel I have made some progress if I only log in for a few hours here and there.
I would have been happy with a game that had the spirit of EQ and the graphics and good ideas of a contemporary MMO.
But EQNext is just so far removed from anything resembling EQ and EQ2 that I can't get excited for it. If I want to play a game that is action oriented, I turn on our PS3, there's plenty of games there that fulfill that need, I don't need an MMO for that.
I would have even gone along with a more action style MMO if it had a rigid class structure, but it doesn't even have that.
I've enjoyed games very different from Everquest, I liked Rift, Iiked Vanguard, I liked Street Gears, but they all had something that attracted me to them, EQNext just tries too hard to be mainstream. With the Landmark Minecraft stuff and the "You can do anything, you can be any class, any race, make anything", it just lacks structure, it lacks direction, the market it's going for it just too broad.
For me it's not what Dave Georgeson is doing today, but about what he brought me in 2000. That was very important and I sincerely thank him for the fun I had. I also thank him for all the good memories and friends I've made. He opened up a whole new world for me. EQN may be great or poor. It depends on the folks in charge now. But in any case I miss the little films Dave always made about what was coming up in the game. Remember....this is merely my opinion, and you know what they say about opinion.
For me it's not what Dave Georgeson is doing today, but about what he brought me in 2000. That was very important and I sincerely thank him for the fun I had. I also thank him for all the good memories and friends I've made. He opened up a whole new world for me. EQN may be great or poor. It depends on the folks in charge now. But in any case I miss the little films Dave always made about what was coming up in the game. Remember....this is merely my opinion, and you know what they say about opinion.
jr
Georgeson wasn't there in 2000. He came in 10 years later.
Originally posted by Kiyoris Originally posted by LeiloniHe didn't say any of that. He merely said what they currently have is not impressive and I think we all knew that.
He's implying that EQNext shouldn't be like EQ and more like current MMO that attract the masses.
At least that's what I'm reading.
Those mmos that all are borderline fails and are about either f2p sucking cash from people or about selling boxes and then getting rid of the product in favor of another one to sell new boxes for?
Originally posted by Temp0 Regardless of what is best for income or "the brand" as you put it, what kind of non-sense is it that a "brand" should abandon its own legacy and fans? Take any of your favorite games and imagine in the next iteration they completely scrapped everything about it and went some different direction with it. That would be utterly crappy (and it happens more often than it should as is without people suggesting it because THEY were not a fan of what came before) for you wouldn't it?
The initial plan was to make EQNext like EQ.
Somewhere down the line someone at SoE had the bright idea to throw out tab target, throw out trinity, throw out tanking, throw out class dependency, and everything that had anything to do with EQ.
It went south from then on, and here we are, SoE sold off, half their staff fired.
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
The thing that current devs don't seem to understand is that you don't design a game to be profitable if you can only reach a few million subs. Instead you design a game to be profitable with a few hundred thousand subs. Don't try and compete with WoW because you will fail miserably and you will see friends and colleagues laid off when they start shutting down the studio to save money.
EQ has a loyal following and they need to capitalize on it. You design your game to be fun and profitable. You hook the old players back in and get word of mouth spread about this awesome EQ reboot/revival and before you know it you have surpassed the minimum number of subs to be profitable. If you only hit 1 million at peak it still doesn't matter because you made sure you would make money a few hundred thousand subs ago.
Get rid of all the flashy graphics and bells and whistles. I'm not saying make it look like it was designed like it's 1999 again but you don't need bleeding edge graphics and technology. Make the damn game fun and make it about community. If you can pull that off then you will have a hit on your hands and the fans will come back and make you enough money that you can swim in it like scrooge mcduck.
In short though, this would be a good thing for both the industry and mmo community as a whole. You can see the hatred growing for the f2p crap and clones that are flooding the market. A profitable and fun niche game is what the industry needs in order to wake up and stop trying to chase the elusive WoW sub giant.
They should have just left the word Everquest out of this game. When EQN was revealed all I could think was they were pissing on that franchise and good memories I have from both EQ and EQ2. And that godawful EQN combat video...
EverQuest was a hell of a game, before they went to the dark side.. lol I can only speak for myself and some inner circle friends, but what we wanted was a remake of "PRE-POP" original EQ, with some tweaking.. EverQuest could of and should of been a major contender to WoW with millions of customers, BUT, dammit..
To this day I still don't know how you describe EQ and what do you call it and where is it going.. The entire franchise just seems to be running on a "on the fly" strategy, and that is DAVE's fault.. I saw NO serious focus to the direction EverQuest is going.. I have my doubts that EQ will even be around in years to come..
Originally posted by LeiloniHe didn't say any of that. He merely said what they currently have is not impressive and I think we all knew that.
He's implying that EQNext shouldn't be like EQ and more like current MMO that attract the masses.
At least that's what I'm reading.
Those mmos that all are borderline fails and are about either f2p sucking cash from people or about selling boxes and then getting rid of the product in favor of another one to sell new boxes for?
Borderline fails? So -- marginally profitable. Unlike the actual fails, MMOs that are critical darlings on this site but lost their makers colossal amounts of money. Wildstar, SW:TOR, TSW, etc.
The #1 thing an Everquest Next game needs to be is profitable.
I think they only want the engines. Everquest 1, Everquest 2 ,EQ next is all going to go. As a player from 1999 of Everquest it breaks my heart that I might never ever go back to that game ever again. At least I got to run around in Qeynos Hills last year when I went back to Everquest. I really think this is the end. I will never see my wizard again I have some screenshots thankfully.
Everquest wasn't/isn't exactly blazing trails or leading the pack.
How big is that community exactly? 50k? 100k people?
Honest?
EQ definitely blazed trails.
The 'community' in this case isn't just the folks playing it right now, it's every person that has played it and enjoyed it over the years. That's the core audience following this right now. So, yeah, millions I would would say actually.
My own view... Progressive is good, but progressive for the sake of it isn't. Any designer that throws out the baby with the bathwater for the sake of being different with an established title is an idiot.
I think most people's view that I have seen is that this could be a fun game, just not one that should be 'Everquest III'. I think that's a valid point of view.
You cannot please EQ fans or EQ2 fans without cannibalizing their subscription numbers and if you please those fans you likely won't please anyone else, which in turn means you are spending money to make a game that isn't going to bring in any more money than you are already making.
From my point of view, EQN should be SWG with the EQ IP on it, a sandbox, completely different to the previous two EQ games.
Comments
See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Things like this is exactly what I've been hearing from the EQ community on the Landmark forums, thus my thread. If the only thing that will appeal to this 50k-100k community is an copy of EQ, why should Daybreak even care.
Don't you think some changes are in order before they end up with a 7 year $200mill+ product that only appeals to 50k people? Wouldn't that be bad for the franchise. Hell wouldn't it be bad for the industry and mmorpg community as a whole?
EQ fans represents millions of people. Thats like saying a football team only has 30k fans because thats all that showed up to a game.
Not everyone likes Ninja Gaiden.
Not everyone likes Dark Souls.
People think the series are too hard, ppl don't like the gameplay, etc.
Yet the developers don't betray their fans and suddenly change their franchise and turn it into Super mario. Yet that's what SoE tried to do, and they failed.
21,457 times to be exact.
Nope....if they made an upgraded EQ I would play it for years. It's what we need now more than ever. Even another version of EQII would do that for me. Not what they have been working on.
If you mean "some changes" as in not to change the structure but the fluidity? Maybe. Otherwise...why reinvent the wheel?
Exactly....I love how ESO did it...but understand why avid fans were disappointed.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I still think they should have done a remake of their more popular iteration of Everquest. Which is the original.
not this minecraft, disney/pixar looking puke fest.
^This
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I would have been happy with a game that had the spirit of EQ and the graphics and good ideas of a contemporary MMO.
But EQNext is just so far removed from anything resembling EQ and EQ2 that I can't get excited for it. If I want to play a game that is action oriented, I turn on our PS3, there's plenty of games there that fulfill that need, I don't need an MMO for that.
I would have even gone along with a more action style MMO if it had a rigid class structure, but it doesn't even have that.
I've enjoyed games very different from Everquest, I liked Rift, Iiked Vanguard, I liked Street Gears, but they all had something that attracted me to them, EQNext just tries too hard to be mainstream. With the Landmark Minecraft stuff and the "You can do anything, you can be any class, any race, make anything", it just lacks structure, it lacks direction, the market it's going for it just too broad.
For me it's not what Dave Georgeson is doing today, but about what he brought me in 2000. That was very important and I sincerely thank him for the fun I had. I also thank him for all the good memories and friends I've made. He opened up a whole new world for me. EQN may be great or poor. It depends on the folks in charge now. But in any case I miss the little films Dave always made about what was coming up in the game. Remember....this is merely my opinion, and you know what they say about opinion.
jr
Don't like the direction of EQNext. But that Georgeson guy was always super upbeat, and it was fun just listening to him.
I don't know why they fired him, he's a good presenter.
Man that's an understatement.
As far as EQ goes it's probably a good time to invest in chalk outlines and body bags.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I thought so too...just another "/sigh" in the wall (Sorry...Pink Floyd)
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Georgeson wasn't there in 2000. He came in 10 years later.
At least that's what I'm reading.
Those mmos that all are borderline fails and are about either f2p sucking cash from people or about selling boxes and then getting rid of the product in favor of another one to sell new boxes for?
The thing that current devs don't seem to understand is that you don't design a game to be profitable if you can only reach a few million subs. Instead you design a game to be profitable with a few hundred thousand subs. Don't try and compete with WoW because you will fail miserably and you will see friends and colleagues laid off when they start shutting down the studio to save money.
EQ has a loyal following and they need to capitalize on it. You design your game to be fun and profitable. You hook the old players back in and get word of mouth spread about this awesome EQ reboot/revival and before you know it you have surpassed the minimum number of subs to be profitable. If you only hit 1 million at peak it still doesn't matter because you made sure you would make money a few hundred thousand subs ago.
Get rid of all the flashy graphics and bells and whistles. I'm not saying make it look like it was designed like it's 1999 again but you don't need bleeding edge graphics and technology. Make the damn game fun and make it about community. If you can pull that off then you will have a hit on your hands and the fans will come back and make you enough money that you can swim in it like scrooge mcduck.
In short though, this would be a good thing for both the industry and mmo community as a whole. You can see the hatred growing for the f2p crap and clones that are flooding the market. A profitable and fun niche game is what the industry needs in order to wake up and stop trying to chase the elusive WoW sub giant.
EverQuest was a hell of a game, before they went to the dark side.. lol I can only speak for myself and some inner circle friends, but what we wanted was a remake of "PRE-POP" original EQ, with some tweaking.. EverQuest could of and should of been a major contender to WoW with millions of customers, BUT, dammit..
To this day I still don't know how you describe EQ and what do you call it and where is it going.. The entire franchise just seems to be running on a "on the fly" strategy, and that is DAVE's fault.. I saw NO serious focus to the direction EverQuest is going.. I have my doubts that EQ will even be around in years to come..
Borderline fails? So -- marginally profitable. Unlike the actual fails, MMOs that are critical darlings on this site but lost their makers colossal amounts of money. Wildstar, SW:TOR, TSW, etc.
The #1 thing an Everquest Next game needs to be is profitable.
Honest?
EQ definitely blazed trails.
The 'community' in this case isn't just the folks playing it right now, it's every person that has played it and enjoyed it over the years. That's the core audience following this right now. So, yeah, millions I would would say actually.
My own view... Progressive is good, but progressive for the sake of it isn't. Any designer that throws out the baby with the bathwater for the sake of being different with an established title is an idiot.
I think most people's view that I have seen is that this could be a fun game, just not one that should be 'Everquest III'. I think that's a valid point of view.
EQN is impossible.
You cannot please EQ fans or EQ2 fans without cannibalizing their subscription numbers and if you please those fans you likely won't please anyone else, which in turn means you are spending money to make a game that isn't going to bring in any more money than you are already making.
From my point of view, EQN should be SWG with the EQ IP on it, a sandbox, completely different to the previous two EQ games.
Now that was just plain rude.