Thank you. See what I highlighted... from your own words mind you?
"A purchase would have to reduce the difficulty of those challenges to be "Pay to Win.""
Exactly... A paid advantage, as that is exactly what a "paid advantage" IS... THAT is "Pay to Win." I knew you would slip up eventually if I debated this long enough with you, and you did. Exactly what I have been stating over and over and over again. And yet, you and others have told me I am somehow incorrect on the matter? I do not think I need to say anything more, as you have made my point quite well in a single sentence.
And before you think I am going to let you weasel your way out of this one... All it takes is one single cash shop item to be tradeable, to funnel lots of money into buying that item, selling that item in-game to other players for in-game currency, thus allowing you to buy items and upgrades that... *drumroll please* "Would reduce the difficulty of challenges"... IE... Pay to Win.
Look, I've never wavered on what pay-to-win is.
I've only pointed out you lack evidence. You haven't named a single specific example of a game doing this. If you're trying to imply this is a serious problem with the genre, you would not only have to be able to name one game doing this, but many games (enough for it to be considered a widespread problem.)
As I said before, I think you probably can find one example. It'd be extremely unlikely that not a single MMORPG has ever slipped up and made this mistake (if not outright selling item upgrades.)
However as you research through various F2P MMORPGs looking for your evidence realize that (a) most F2P MMORPGs you look through aren't doing this and (b) after all that searching you'll have found one single game worth of evidence. So the very act of you searching for evidence will prove my point: this isn't a widespread problem and you're drastically overstating how many games are pay to win.
(Keeping in mind this discussion is mostly based on your claim that ""Unrestricted Pay to Win" is the majority of what we see in the MMORPG genre". A statement which you will clearly understand to be false as you sift through these games.)
Remember, only specific examples serve as evidence. If you manage to find multiple examples, we'll line them up against a list of all F2P MMORPGs to see if this actually affects more than 50% of them (because your claim is "the majority".)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Thank you. See what I highlighted... from your own words mind you?
"A purchase would have to reduce the difficulty of those challenges to be "Pay to Win.""
Exactly... A paid advantage, as that is exactly what a "paid advantage" IS... THAT is "Pay to Win." I knew you would slip up eventually if I debated this long enough with you, and you did. Exactly what I have been stating over and over and over again. And yet, you and others have told me I am somehow incorrect on the matter? I do not think I need to say anything more, as you have made my point quite well in a single sentence.
And before you think I am going to let you weasel your way out of this one... All it takes is one single cash shop item to be tradeable, to funnel lots of money into buying that item, selling that item in-game to other players for in-game currency, thus allowing you to buy items and upgrades that... *drumroll please* "Would reduce the difficulty of challenges"... IE... Pay to Win.
Look, I've never wavered on what pay-to-win is.
I've only pointed out you lack evidence. You haven't named a single specific example of a game doing this. If you're trying to imply this is a serious problem with the genre, you would not only have to be able to name one game doing this, but many games (enough for it to be considered a widespread problem.)
As I said before, I think you probably can find one example. It'd be extremely unlikely that not a single MMORPG has ever slipped up and made this mistake (if not outright selling item upgrades.)
However as you research through various F2P MMORPGs looking for your evidence realize that (a) most F2P MMORPGs you look through aren't doing this and (b) after all that searching you'll have found one single game worth of evidence. So the very act of you searching for evidence will prove my point: this isn't a widespread problem and you're drastically overstating how many games are pay to win.
(Keeping in mind this discussion is mostly based on your claim that ""Unrestricted Pay to Win" is the majority of what we see in the MMORPG genre". A statement which you will clearly understand to be false as you sift through these games.)
Remember, only specific examples serve as evidence. If you manage to find multiple examples, we'll line them up against a list of all F2P MMORPGs to see if this actually affects more than 50% of them (because your claim is "the majority".)
Challenge Accepted.
DEAR GOD NO!!!!! WHAT HAS HE DONE??????
The reply forming in my head is going to be nothing short a.. a... TRIPLE RAINBOW!!!!
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
So does that mean you are happy with restricted pay to win or you don't want any pay to win at all? You really need to word things better. Plus, none of your answers are relevant to me. Pay to win exists, I have no problem with it, life is pay to win. I just don't use it in video games and don't care if other people use it or not.
I agree with this.
If I don't spend a dime, don't care if others do yet still enjoy my time in the game, is the motive behind this thread suggesting that I'm still guilty of being 'Pro P2W' because I play said games?!
In all sincerity, this whole monetisation mentally companies have will eventually go too far and things will, like a pendulum, swing back towards the player (I hope).
Not sure if you are involved in making a game. From some of your various posts it seemed to allude to that. If so, I wish you well in your endeavors. If not, my mistake then for the assumption.
Well thank you, but I have many years before it becomes a reality (like well over a decade), but the road forward is far shorter than the road up to this point (three decades, technically). I might have and-or am, taking the whole "Capricorns are about the journey and climb up" thing too far... nah.
Unfortunately, I do not see it. If governments step in on the "gambling" aspects of it, then maybe. But given how "gambling" is technically defined, more likely not. And even still, there are other P2W aspects that have nothing to do with gambling. So the only thing that will change the industry, will be MMORPG companies themselves realizing that a game with integrity (that is also a damn good MMORPG which has good gameplay), will take the market.
This happening could take a long time, possibly over a decade... of which, I am actually hoping for (I know, how sadistic of me). But the reality is a number of things need to come together in a single MMORPG. I mean, just realize exactly how many things do need to come together. There are multiple systems within an MMORPG itself1 (which must appease a fairly large "MMORPG" audience2), multiple technical hardware3, programming4, services involved5, security systems6 that also need to be part of this, the staff of the company (from top to bottom and bottom to top, in multiple departments and trades involved) must be fairly solid7, including customer service8AND their monetization system9 also must be dead on. And this is severely lacking everything involved along with the details of each point involved.
You're right, we're screwed.
LOL You can always use the mantra "If you build it, they will come."
Though, reading your enthusiasm in numerous posts, I highly doubt this will be necessary.
I remember when MMOs were pay-per-minute, back then it didn't matter how much time you had to play, you could only play as much as your wallet could afford.
Comments
Look, I've never wavered on what pay-to-win is.
I've only pointed out you lack evidence. You haven't named a single specific example of a game doing this. If you're trying to imply this is a serious problem with the genre, you would not only have to be able to name one game doing this, but many games (enough for it to be considered a widespread problem.)
As I said before, I think you probably can find one example. It'd be extremely unlikely that not a single MMORPG has ever slipped up and made this mistake (if not outright selling item upgrades.)
However as you research through various F2P MMORPGs looking for your evidence realize that (a) most F2P MMORPGs you look through aren't doing this and (b) after all that searching you'll have found one single game worth of evidence. So the very act of you searching for evidence will prove my point: this isn't a widespread problem and you're drastically overstating how many games are pay to win.
(Keeping in mind this discussion is mostly based on your claim that ""Unrestricted Pay to Win" is the majority of what we see in the MMORPG genre". A statement which you will clearly understand to be false as you sift through these games.)
Remember, only specific examples serve as evidence. If you manage to find multiple examples, we'll line them up against a list of all F2P MMORPGs to see if this actually affects more than 50% of them (because your claim is "the majority".)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
DEAR GOD NO!!!!! WHAT HAS HE DONE??????
The reply forming in my head is going to be nothing short a.. a... TRIPLE RAINBOW!!!!
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I agree with this.
If I don't spend a dime, don't care if others do yet still enjoy my time in the game, is the motive behind this thread suggesting that I'm still guilty of being 'Pro P2W' because I play said games?!
I certainly hope not...
Good to know!
In all sincerity, this whole monetisation mentally companies have will eventually go too far and things will, like a pendulum, swing back towards the player (I hope).
Not sure if you are involved in making a game. From some of your various posts it seemed to allude to that. If so, I wish you well in your endeavors. If not, my mistake then for the assumption.
LOL You can always use the mantra "If you build it, they will come."
Though, reading your enthusiasm in numerous posts, I highly doubt this will be necessary.
I remember when MMOs were pay-per-minute, back then it didn't matter how much time you had to play, you could only play as much as your wallet could afford.
Now that was pay to win
tell that to Tabula Rasa, vanguard, virtual boy ....
famous last words before a company goes bust.
How so ? I would expect such a game to be empty and ignored.
People dont play a game just because it was released. If they think its crap, they wont play it.
...
Are you kidding me? What does "people don't play a game" have to do with this forum?
There are plenty of people (myself included) talking about lots of games they don't play.
True, but if one never tries, one never can know what's to be or what can be.
That is such a cliche. Data, survey, market research can tell quite a bit.
And no one has try to make a toilet simulator too, would you like to try it just because it has not been tried before?
Enbysra
Any update on the P2W challenge? I'm curious what you find.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/