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Any MMO with "Fair" PvP aside from GW?
Just wondering if there are any other MMO's out there aside from Guild Wars that have truly "fair" PvP, meaning that it doesn't take hundreds of hours or hundreds of dollars to have the *same* (emphasis here) relevant gear/stat options as other players. Note that needing to pay some money is fine, or invest some time.
Doesn't matter if f2p/b2p/p2p, old or new, AAA or indie, just seeing if anyone knows of one I missed. I couldn't find any other than GW myself after extensive looking. Only similar-ish games would be MOBA-style games like SMITE, but no MMO's I found.
Thanks if anyone knows of others!
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Wow, rift, swtor, ffxiv,tsw,w*, aoc, lotro
None of those take hundreds of hours or hundreds of dollars to be on equal footing. Maybe a dozen hours tops. Is that too much for you?
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I don't see how playing a dozen hours could possibly get you on equal footing as someone who has top gear and has been playing for a long time ( in either of those games )
Some odd replies so far...
Have you played any of the games you listed? That's an honest question, not me being sarcastic. I ask because to take Rift just as one example, back when I played (before F2P) just leveling up completely, including filling in the entire crazy (500?) level bonus stat grid after max base level, would take hundreds of hours, and no one could possibly do it in a dozen hours, or anything even remotely close to that.
I only played this one for a few hours at launch and much could have changed, but I feel pretty sure leveling up all the way, unlocking all the kits, stat boosts, everything else would have been very time consuming and/or expensive. Has that changed? I really don't know/remember much about this one.
@Nighthaven, sorry mate, not sure what you are talking about in your posts, or how it relates to my original question.
Does cheating counts? Because it is the only way.
Well, you might get to a level where you at least have some chance in just 50-60 hours if you are really good and got a guild supporting you but even then would you be at a huge disadvantage.
In GW1 I have got a character from zero to max level with top gear (but a gold weapon, not a green one but the basically are the same) in a saturday afternoon. It wasn't like that when the game launched though but been so since Factions. In GW2 you can be PvPing in 5 minutes even if you are at a disadvantage in the massive PvP for a while.
Of course the GW games are far from perfect but the huge powergap most MMOs have makes the PvP pretty boring, few fights actually gets really exciting since one of the involved usually have a great advatage and often so huge that only one player can win no matter what both players do.
You might want to check out Chivalry medieval warfare (not an MMO)
Or Champions of Regnum (free MMO)
These are the only ones that I can think of given the limited parameters you've set.
I don't see how playing a dozen hours could possibly get you on equal footing as someone who has top gear and has been playing for a long time ( in either of those games )
They all have catch up mechanics that get you on par relatively quickly
Interestingly enough, Dungeon Fighter Online in Korea used to hvae a Fair PvP arena where everything was equalized for the most part (for the most part. They had this wierd PvP equipment gaining system but a player could get through it rather fast). Over there, all that uber gear you built up from the normal game was unusable. Even before this addition to the game, Dungeon Fighter Online in Korea was huge and had a huge following (dunno if it still does or not) and PvP tournaments with real prizes were a real thing there.
They ended up removing it.
Why? Cause it gave people no incentive to play the normal game. Why play the normal game and grind for hours on end if PvPing only required just jumping in and doing whatever? Of course, given the monetization model, this also meant a truckton less money coming in for the company. Apparently this became so significant that they ended up just removing the thing.
I think the day I found out about that (I had long ago stopped playing DFO but read about it on the forums) was the day I realized that MMORPGs will always be inherently AGAINST fair PvP play. And thus why I'd often rant in threads here whenever people come up with open world PvP or asking why PvP MMOs only ever get a niche audience. The nature of MMOs is simply against such a thing, to the point where when an MMO introduced a fair pvp arena, it ended up having to remove it because it was so contrary to the rest of the game (...and business model).
@ General-Zod - Any additional thoughts on Champions of Regnum regarding it fitting what I'm looking for? I had never heard of it until you mentioned it, but it looks like fairly bad Steam reviews, and most of the negatives complain about the bad grind.
@ Foomerang - Regarding the catch up mechanisms, no, they don't. At least not on par (ie equal), and I'm still wondering if you've played any of the games.
@ Tiamat-Roar - Very interesting post. I think you are generally right here. Just seems strange that one MMO series (GW/GW2) was able to successfully incorporate fair pvp, even in a limited setting, but no others have or can. Maybe the fair pvp idea only really works in a b2p business model, and since almost all MMO's are going f2p which is, like you say, contrary to easy to attain fair pvp, that there's just not much opportunity for it to exist.
Yeah I've played all the games I listed. You can get close to equal footing in a relatively short time. And if you are asking for exact equal footing with no time investment, then by your own standards, even gw2 comes up short. Unless you are talking about spvp and not wvw. In which case, many MMOs with arena PvP have options to have evenly geared matches.
They run experience boots everyday X2 X5 X20 (at least when I played)
You have to be careful about reading steam reviews, some people will post a review with no clue how to play the game. I personally think reviewers should have to pass an I.Q test... if you know what I mean.
You aren't looking for an MMORPG, you are looking for an fps or a fighting game. COD, Planet Side 2, Streetfighter... etc.
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That seems rather unlikely. Sure, with F2P games you do need to sell more stuff than B2P but some F2P games do work without selling stuff that messes up the game balance too much. TERA to mention one (unless they messed it up lately, been a while).
In P2P that part should be easy, as long as the game is fun people will continue to play it.
My guess is that most of them just fear trying out new things and that far too many of the investors want something similar to games that already earns a lot of money. You can play safe or take a risk, and in the economy we had the last 7 years most investors tend to go far a "safe" opinion. Now if GW2 starts to grow after an expansion or 2 we might see more similar games to it.It surely is possible, GW1 was a really small niche game until Factions and Nightfall hit with 6 months between them selling millions of copies.
I don't think so. PvP don''t have to be perfectly equal to be fun, but neither should most of the combat be decided even before it starts, that is just bad game design noi matter if it is a MMO or something else.
I think the perfect levelgap between a new character and a vet should be that the new player could beat the vet if he plays insanely good and the vet sucks, that would make PvP far more challenging and fun (and no, auto loose or auto win most fights are not challenging nor particularly fun). That would still be a MMORPG, you do still get progression even if it is more balanced than what we see today.
Now, for a PvE only game the powergap is far less of a problem, basicly it makes grouping with friends harder and greys out areas as you play but that is nothing compared how things are in PvP. I just think that the old MMO mechanics are made for PvE and PvP is just added as an afterthought, without adding what needs to be added to be truly fun. There are some exceptions like Eve though.
Besides, GW2 is a MMORPG and if OP want something similar, sending him to COD just seems wrong.
wow and co does not have a catch up mechanic, since the problem with wow, rift or any game with high power increase rates is that you need to play x hours a week without fail to 'keep up', this is the real issue, you cant catch up on progression that moves forward at x hours per week unless you maintain that cadence.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
All those MMOs you mentioned are not fair pvp, gear > all in those games.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
FFXIV is kind of similar but the opposite of GW2. Where in GW2 everyone is equal in the small battles and there is a difference in the large battles (WvW), FFXIV has PvP gear which has a stat which ONLY matters in arena battles but has no influence in the larger Frontlines battles. Unfortunately Frontlines aren't a persistent thing like in WvW but are kind of like Battlegrounds. A timed & scored match with up to 72 players (3 teams of 24) with a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place at the end with varying rewards.
Only thing required is to get to level 50 to unlock Frontlines. Arena PvP can be unlocked starting at level 30 and is broken into different tiers based on levels and solo vs preformed teams.
FFXI has totally fair pvp ,just nobody cares about it because FFXI players are mainly into PVE.The pvp takes place in the open game and are setup by your choice of levels.
Sure gear can matter but in case of FFXI you can choose lower levels where gear does not matter at all and because the game is NOT designed around balance it becomes a war of better decisions.
In a team setting pvp in ffx can actually be sort of fun but like i said nobody cares about PVP in a great THE greatest PVE game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
They all have catch up mechanics that get you on par relatively quickly
wow and co does not have a catch up mechanic, since the problem with wow, rift or any game with high power increase rates is that you need to play x hours a week without fail to 'keep up', this is the real issue, you cant catch up on progression that moves forward at x hours per week unless you maintain that cadence.
Well, I mean... That's an mmorpg. That is persistent character progression in a nutshell. If you want the best PvP without all that stuff attached, you're in the wrong genre. Fighting games are exactly what the op is looking for. Everyone has access to the exact same classes, no gear gaps, no falling behind in stats. It's not progression based. Just jump in and have a fair fight.
Please. PvP is fair in WoW for the people that care. It doesn't take that long to get in BiS. Anyone playing WoW PvP competitively has the same gear for the most part. What is unique about GW2 is that there is no grind whatsoever at the beginning. Some people prefer that. This thread should be locked for the blatant troll that it is.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
I was referring to extreme power cadence, e,g ESO, GW2, GW1, EVE, LOTR do not have these issues, they have horizontal and AA and all work very well. try walking into a battleground in WOW in blue gear and be 1 shotted while you can barely harm anyone geared - its a very weird idealogy where new players are given a handicap over veterans lol, and yet that's exactly what we have with games where fast power gain is used to represent content. not to mention the utter balancing mess.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well for PVP, nothing beats the Souls (a console game, with a PC port) series for me. It's the 1 of the 2 games I played PVP for like 300+ hours just because it was so fun and satisfying. The items/weapons work on players exactly the way they work on NPC if you can land a hit of course. No separated PVP skills/gears. The other one is Dragon Nest, a lobby MMO. The most popular PVP section are gear-free matches. You can also cash out to upgrade your gears to compete in the ranked PVP as well if you so choose.
The answer is no, as ridiculous as it seems.
GW2 is the only MMO I've encountered that is 100% fair PvP where you can make a new character, and go to the PvP instance area and gear up and skill up in equal power to someone who has played for years. Your player experience will be far less than your opponents and so you'll get destroyed over and over at first, but you aren't at a disadvantage in skills or gear - just your experience as a player.
The World of Warcraft Draenor expansion almost did this correctly on the gear side by allowing you to buy cheap max level pvp items, but these items are only valid in PvP instance battles that aren't created by the matchmaking system. I.e. you can get a guild of 10 guys vs 10 guys to agree to suit up in the special pvp gear and fight each other on equal ground. You still need the correct character level, though. This just bypasses the gear problem. Because the matchmaking system isn't used, this game mode is primarily used as practice for large guilds or between guilds that want to prepare for ranked battlegrounds, but doesn't really serve much other purpose since there are no rewards associated. Since the WoW gear grind is the core foundation of getting players to stay subscribed, I am not sure WoW can ever fully do a GW2 gear system for PvP, but I was surprised to see this mode at all.
Maybe not precisely what you're looking for but Avalon (@ www.avalon-rpg.com) Is a text based game with probably the fairest PVP in any game I've ever seen. There's no pay to win (though there are cash shops to get you there faster, sure) and it's purely skill and talent based -- no gear disadvantages or to-the-numbers calculations to reduce fighting to a series of equations. Avalon is all about reaction speed, intuition and experience.
I've played for 8 years and I've played every other MMO out there worth talking about and keep coming back to this game; nothing else is so challenging or rewarding.
If anyone wants to ask about it at all, you can get me at sam@meetplace.net and I'd be happy to chat.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history