When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
Where are your lines drawn?
I dislike difficult content. Instead I prefer lengthy content as a means for progression. Hate beating my head on a wall of bosses learning challenging fights but instead like reaching said boss to take a long time.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots Where are your lines drawn?
While it is a good question I think this is part of the gaming communities problem. Too much focus on likes, dislikes, hatreds past game mechanics brought into current games and not enough on just playing games. You have to play the cards you are dealt.
Or, as Kenny Rogers eloquently said: "You have to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run."
I'm not pleased with hand I've been dealt lately
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots :)Where are your lines drawn?
I dislike difficult content. Instead I prefer lengthy content as a means for progression. Hate beating my head on a wall of bosses learning challenging fights but instead like reaching said boss to take a long time.
You know, I am the same way. If I have not succeeded in 5 tries, I give up. Or I look for ways to succeed. For me, "learning the dance" does not make it difficult. It is the precursor to QuickTime Events (QTE's). "OOO! Red circle around me. Time to MOOOOVE!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
When you are doing repetitive simple tasks game session after game session just to get upgrades to do the same some of repetitive tasks. It can be mob, quest, daily quest or reputation grinding and you are only doing it for the reason to do it and at one point I ask myself "are you having fun?", if the answer is "no" I logout. After enough sessions of answering "no" I stop playing altogether.
Dumbed down dungeon gameplay to fit bad players using LFG tools with no desire to communicate.
Cash shops selling exp boosters and gear.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
For those who answered F2P, keep in mind there hasn't been a single AAA F2P MMORPG yet so you really don't know how that would go. I would think most AAA companies will move to B2P considering what a failure P2P has been recently, but you can't really judge F2P because for MMOPRG at this point it barely exists. You have failed games that moved to F2P and you have small developers just trying to get a game out and that is it for MMORPG.
For those who answered F2P, keep in mind there hasn't been a single AAA F2P MMORPG yet so you really don't know how that would go. I would think most AAA companies will move to B2P considering what a failure P2P has been recently, but you can't really judge F2P because for MMOPRG at this point it barely exists. You have failed games that moved to F2P and you have small developers just trying to get a game out and that is it for MMORPG.
That's because every triple-A studio has learned that you can release the game as a subscription because there are still holdouts, namely most people that post here on MMORPG.com, will jump at the chance to give away $15 a month for no reason. This in turn allows the studio to pay for heavy developmental costs.
If we removed this stigma that F2P is cheap and a failure, then studios will start making MMO's less all inclusive and create better MMO's for certain types of players so at the end of the day I blame the crowd here on MMORPG.com for the shortcomings of the MMO genre because the majority here are obsessed with 15+ year old business models and game design.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
Where are your lines drawn?
Behind me... that way I will never cross them again.
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
You do? I don't. They've been putting out games that don't live up to the standards of MMos from the damn 90s. They're just recycled broken WoW clones, that's why we keep leaving them.
My line in the sand is generally, if there's instancing or quest based leveling, I'm not playing it.
When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
Where are your lines drawn?
First, I have to preface this by saying the creators of a game have to manage expectations, and likewise a player has to know what they are getting into. There is just too many tastes out there and many people like many things. If you are playing a game like angry birds, you know what to expect. If you are playing a game in an arcade, you know they want to kill you off as quickly as possible and its likely no matter how skilled you are, they will find a way to get more quarters out of you.
When you play the average mmo, you can expect most of the content will be easy and geared towards solo gameplay. Any other type of mmorpg should tell you very clearly up front whether you can expect a harder form of gameplay than the norm.
All of my answers will assume that the player knows going in of the type of gameplay that the game offers.
When does difficult become too hard?
Short answer - never, permitted its possible, and enough people enjoy the high level of difficulty, its fine.
Long answer - When you aren't given the means to continue progressing your character. When the game is hard because mobs becomes stronger at a faster rate than your character, then you seek out other players. If you cannot easily find other players to complete available content, that is a problem. If you find players for said content and the risk or challenge of finding players wasn't worth the reward, that can be another problem, but not one of difficulty. Other than that, there is no such thing as too difficult unless the only available content is wiping the floor with your party regardless of your party size.
When does "challenging content" become "tedious?"
This is like asking what is the best flavor of ice cream. It varies considerably from one player to the next based on a few things in particular.
1) skill - if the player lacks skill or know-how, even the simplest things become tedious. A game must scale appropriately and give a player a chance to learn gradually. If even the most skilled players cannot succeed with other skilled players, then content is tedious.
2) patience & age - Patience varies with people of all ages, but younger people tend to have less patience and therefore want more faster. People will almost always choose the easy path if they feel its giving them an advantage, even if the slow path is more engaging. Quantity over quality. Therefore if you have to "work" at something longer than a single play session, it's quickly dubbed "grindy" and complained about.
3) available playtime - It's not always about patience though, you should be able to at least work towards something in a shorter session of play.
4) general preference of light gameplay or involved immersive gameplay
Many people simply don't want to read. They don't want to know why anyone or anything is anywhere in your game. They don't care about lore, they don't care about communicating with others and they barely take their eyes of their experience bar long enough to soak in their surroundings.
On the other hand, some people just want to take it all in like they were reading a good book. They want to become part of the story. They expect to see content with meaning. They want the environment to tell a story. They want depth. They want meaningful interaction between both themselves and the environment, and the environment with itself.
That sort of player enjoys things that take longer, because it makes sense to take longer. "Working" on something in a game is conducive to the illusion of a virtual world. They expect quality, and a sense of accomplishment with anything they do.
There is no perfect scenario of quality vs quantity or a perfect middle ground for these preferences. Simply put, some player will enjoy that type of gameplay and some players won't.
Where do I draw the line?
Again, all personal preference. My preference is an mmorpg is one that can suspend my disbelief. If things come too easily, I am disappointed. If my character feels too powerful or the environment doesn't present a real threat to my virtual life, I get bored. If I do not have to seek out other people to progress, then the world seems fake, because you can't accomplish shit in the real world on your own.
I will add that I don't think I ever quit a game because it was too hard. I quit them because they are too easy all the time though. I'm sure there is a level at which it becomes too hard and I would quit, I just haven't found a game that does that. Unfortunately most games get derailed in difficulty because they have to pander to the LCD, especially games like this that are aimed at a large diverse group of players.
To use a non MMOPRG example. D3 was not too hard when it first released and people cried and cried until they made the game a complete joke. I finished the game with a 2H Monk with poor gear while people were saying you had to go sword and board with elite gear to stand a chance. Certain mobs and certain affixes needed tweaks because they weren't fun but we didn't need a global shift in power to where the game became a joke and you could win it in your lvl 59 gear.
Sad fact but that is how the gaming industry works, if the average player finds it difficult it will get nerfed until they find it easy just so the really bad players have a chance.
My problem is that I am stubborn to the point of masochism when it comes to fighting against odds (be it tough boss, some extremely unfavorable PvP situation or problematic game mechanics), so - as a rule - everyone already leaves the party before I get even close to my lines in the sand.
For example, this little curse of mine helped me enjoy WAR until the very last second, 99% of folks stumbled over their lines years ago while I was still looking for mine.
When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
Where are your lines drawn?
Isn't it normal to ditch a product if it is not meeting your standards or the price you pay for it?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I have a few, but the big one that comes to mind is games that allow players to be dicks to each other. Not PvP mind you, I mean games that even now allow kill stealing, ninja looting, griefing, corpse camping, or similar. In a modern game, built long after issues like these have been resolved and phased out, this is inexcusable.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots Where are your lines drawn?
Isn't it normal to ditch a product if it is not meeting your standards or the price you pay for it?
Of course it is. I am asking "when" that happens to players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "difficult" become "too hard?"
Probably when a goal becomes unattainable without fulfilling the goals for 100 other people. I get huge encounters, I understand guild structure and hard work. But when you have to slog through too many peoples shit just to see the light at the end of the tunnel I am fucking out.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "challenging content" become "tedious?"
See above.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
Context there. Kinda need one. But for the most part when others winge/drama needlessly over their own needs. When you can't relax because there is someone driving the group too aggressively. When someone decides to start tossing blame in random directions instead of solving issues.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots
It's not quite the consumer, but the marketing/publishers needs to ensure everyone consumes their product. It is not easy to make a pristine product without simplifying it. I personally think publishers need to focus once again on depth of content and forget polish. Untapped audience there. Certainly I am one.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Where are your lines drawn?
In the context of an MMO I have my share, though they are all are often crossed for me - Low curves of progression If I can't look forward I am checking out. - Action / Fast paced combat. I have my FPS if I want it, don't need that here. - PvP Centric. Take away the 2 items above maybe I could get into it, dotted line maybe. - Solo all the things. Just stop it.
Difficult is too hard when it doesn't make you want to retry. You should be doing oh darn if only I would have hit this skill, dodged that ability, had this set of gear on, brought 2 more friends to fight it. Great Extra Credits episode on this!
Never? Challenging content means it is engaging you.
When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
That depends on the person! Let's look at Runescape, some people have fun by logging in every day, cutting trees / fishing, selling their yield to the grand exchange, and merchenting their money.
Some people get their kicks by getting 99 in a skill, some by completing a certain quest or even all of them.
Others find logging in every day and going player killing is fun, some find killing the Godwar bosses fun for the slot machine effect.
I guess fun isn't fun anymore when you're burnt out and lose the childlike whimsy to look for more things to do, more content to discover, more ways to progress.
I have so many lines in the sand anymore i dont even know where to start. it seems like MMOs come out with new ways to piss me off than to make the game more fun.
@GreYVee: The context of "fun becoming un-fun" is usually found as a "fad or gimmick" that sounds great at first (GW 2's Dynamic Events and RIFT's Rifts come to mind as examples), but later becomes a "chore."
I think I participated in maybe 15-30 of these DE's in GW 2 with each character I created before I gave them up as a chore. In EQ, I enjoyed the game from level 1-15 or 20. Then, when I had to get into groups to do anything in the game, other then running around Norrath, it became "un-fun" for me. When I finally found a group of similarly minded people and created a Guild, the experience again became fun again for me
@zeme111: "Challenging becomes tedious" For me, action combat is challenging. After about an hour, with no forced downtime, I log off, physically and mentally tired. Fighting and combat used to be "challenging." Now, it is just tedious because it has become the number one focus of MMOs.
What helps me with this is variety. I do not mind combat. I can actually enjoy it if it is done in a way I find enjoyable (character ability trumps my own ability, or lack thereof). But if it is 80-90% of the gameplay, it gets tedious very quickly. The same I would say for 80-90% of ANY activity taking precedence. Crafting, housing, singular kinds of questing, grouping.
In EverQuest, I enjoyed many of the variety of activities they presented players. Yes, combat was the main focus of the game, but they had so many other activities available that players back then actually enjoyed doing. Activities like language learning, crafting, combat, grouping, guild functions like healing parties at camping spots, GM run events, fishing during boat rides, and drinking too much alcohol in game so the screen became all wonky and I could not move in a straight line for the life of me! Some of the more sadistic guilds would have "drunken races" in Kelethin (A Wood Elf city built in the trees) and watch players stumble off of the edge of the platforms, many times to their death
Did that make sense?
[EDIT] I meant to mention the Extra Credits link. I am a fan of that channel and enjoyed this episode immensely
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky When does "difficult" become "too hard?" When does "challenging content" become "tedious?" When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
I do feel for the developers of today. We players are spoiled. We are quick to leave an MMO an almost any old excuse. I wonder if there are many developers with any hair left that they have not yet pulled out by the roots Where are your lines drawn?
While it is a good question I think this is part of the gaming communities problem. Too much focus on likes, dislikes, hatreds past game mechanics brought into current games and not enough on just playing games. You have to play the cards you are dealt.
Or, as Kenny Rogers eloquently said: "You have to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run."
I'm not pleased with hand I've been dealt lately
This is a big change in player's attitudes today, everyone wants to play "their way." Didn't used to be like this, most players tackled the content as it was delivered, and overcame whatever challenges the game presented, even if it didn't perfectly suit their individual preferences, even if it took years of trying to master it.
Originally posted by DrunkWolf
I have so many lines in the sand anymore i dont even know where to start. it seems like MMOs come out with new ways to piss me off than to make the game more fun.
Here is the crux of where most of the disgruntled players today, including myself, we've drawn so many lines in the sand they completely encircle us, leaving many with nothing to play.
Now I'm not blaming the players, it's true the market evolved down a specific set of designs which we may not care for, but it still is up to us to step across our boundaries and try to find the fun somewhere.
It could involve returning to an older title you enjoyed, playing a newer one and focusing on the elements you enjoy, or stepping totally outside your boundaries.
So often I see someone post, I really like the idea of EVE, but I just can't get past the idea of being a spaceship. Now there are a lot of good reasons not to like EVE, but this is not one of them. Break your barriers and really give it a good trial, you might be surprised.
Same with other games, don't focus on one aspect and toss the baby out with the bath water , look past your limits and you might find the fun again.
ALB, you are definitely a person who wants to enjoy MMOs but are holding yourself back as much as the marketplace is doing to you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I really wish I could like Eve, it does so many things right. The problem is the basic gameplay just isn't fun at all. The combat model they chose to go with is just downright boring and while the non combat aspects are fun they just aren't enough to keep me playing.
Same issue with TSW. If I'm going to play a quest based game that would be the one because they did it the right way, but the combat is just awful so I can't stick with it. When I'm trying to just run by everything because I can't stand doing one more fight it really kills the game.
Originally posted by Kyleran <snipped for brevity>This is a big change in player's attitudes today, everyone wants to play "their way." Didn't used to be like this, most players tackled the content as it was delivered, and overcame whatever challenges the game presented, even if it didn't perfectly suit their individual preferences, even if it took years of trying to master it.<snipped for brevity>Here is the crux of where most of the disgruntled players today, including myself, we've drawn so many lines in the sand they completely encircle us, leaving many with nothing to play.Now I'm not blaming the players, it's true the market evolved down a specific set of designs which we may not care for, but it still is up to us to step across our boundaries and try to find the fun somewhere.It could involve returning to an older title you enjoyed, playing a newer one and focusing on the elements you enjoy, or stepping totally outside your boundaries.So often I see someone post, I really like the idea of EVE, but I just can't get past the idea of being a spaceship. Now there are a lot of good reasons not to like EVE, but this is not one of them. Break your barriers and really give it a good trial, you might be surprised.Same with other games, don't focus on one aspect and toss the baby out with the bath water , look past your limits and you might find the fun again.ALB, you are definitely a person who wants to enjoy MMOs but are holding yourself back as much as the marketplace is doing to you.
I really do not hold wanting to play any way a player wishes to as bad thing. Makes a whole lotta sense to me It is when ONE way to play seems to trump all others that gets my panties in a bunch Well, that and the lack of empathy from old and new gamers who smile like Cheshire cats as they rip the way I enjoy games to shreds, while finding themselves having to choose which one of the hundreds of MMOs they enjoy they will log into in any given moment. Yup. A bit o' the ol' jealousy rearing its ugly head here for me
I, too, have so many lines drawn in the sand I think my head is barely above the sand level
Yes, I do hold myself back. I could log into any MMO out today and find something fun to do in them. I have just gotten a terrible "Bitter Vet" attitude and refuse to support what the industry has become. Every "new MMO" announced I know will be yet another one not made for my enjoyment. It sucks being forgotten...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
I dislike difficult content. Instead I prefer lengthy content as a means for progression. Hate beating my head on a wall of bosses learning challenging fights but instead like reaching said boss to take a long time.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
"You have to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run."
I'm not pleased with hand I've been dealt lately
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
When you are doing repetitive simple tasks game session after game session just to get upgrades to do the same some of repetitive tasks. It can be mob, quest, daily quest or reputation grinding and you are only doing it for the reason to do it and at one point I ask myself "are you having fun?", if the answer is "no" I logout. After enough sessions of answering "no" I stop playing altogether.
Dumbed down dungeon gameplay to fit bad players using LFG tools with no desire to communicate.
Cash shops selling exp boosters and gear.
For those who answered F2P, keep in mind there hasn't been a single AAA F2P MMORPG yet so you really don't know how that would go. I would think most AAA companies will move to B2P considering what a failure P2P has been recently, but you can't really judge F2P because for MMOPRG at this point it barely exists. You have failed games that moved to F2P and you have small developers just trying to get a game out and that is it for MMORPG.
That's because every triple-A studio has learned that you can release the game as a subscription because there are still holdouts, namely most people that post here on MMORPG.com, will jump at the chance to give away $15 a month for no reason. This in turn allows the studio to pay for heavy developmental costs.
If we removed this stigma that F2P is cheap and a failure, then studios will start making MMO's less all inclusive and create better MMO's for certain types of players so at the end of the day I blame the crowd here on MMORPG.com for the shortcomings of the MMO genre because the majority here are obsessed with 15+ year old business models and game design.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Behind me... that way I will never cross them again.
You do? I don't. They've been putting out games that don't live up to the standards of MMos from the damn 90s. They're just recycled broken WoW clones, that's why we keep leaving them.
My line in the sand is generally, if there's instancing or quest based leveling, I'm not playing it.
First, I have to preface this by saying the creators of a game have to manage expectations, and likewise a player has to know what they are getting into. There is just too many tastes out there and many people like many things. If you are playing a game like angry birds, you know what to expect. If you are playing a game in an arcade, you know they want to kill you off as quickly as possible and its likely no matter how skilled you are, they will find a way to get more quarters out of you.
When you play the average mmo, you can expect most of the content will be easy and geared towards solo gameplay. Any other type of mmorpg should tell you very clearly up front whether you can expect a harder form of gameplay than the norm.
All of my answers will assume that the player knows going in of the type of gameplay that the game offers.
When does difficult become too hard?
Short answer - never, permitted its possible, and enough people enjoy the high level of difficulty, its fine.
Long answer - When you aren't given the means to continue progressing your character. When the game is hard because mobs becomes stronger at a faster rate than your character, then you seek out other players. If you cannot easily find other players to complete available content, that is a problem. If you find players for said content and the risk or challenge of finding players wasn't worth the reward, that can be another problem, but not one of difficulty. Other than that, there is no such thing as too difficult unless the only available content is wiping the floor with your party regardless of your party size.
When does "challenging content" become "tedious?"
This is like asking what is the best flavor of ice cream. It varies considerably from one player to the next based on a few things in particular.
1) skill - if the player lacks skill or know-how, even the simplest things become tedious. A game must scale appropriately and give a player a chance to learn gradually. If even the most skilled players cannot succeed with other skilled players, then content is tedious.
2) patience & age - Patience varies with people of all ages, but younger people tend to have less patience and therefore want more faster. People will almost always choose the easy path if they feel its giving them an advantage, even if the slow path is more engaging. Quantity over quality. Therefore if you have to "work" at something longer than a single play session, it's quickly dubbed "grindy" and complained about.
3) available playtime - It's not always about patience though, you should be able to at least work towards something in a shorter session of play.
4) general preference of light gameplay or involved immersive gameplay
Many people simply don't want to read. They don't want to know why anyone or anything is anywhere in your game. They don't care about lore, they don't care about communicating with others and they barely take their eyes of their experience bar long enough to soak in their surroundings.
On the other hand, some people just want to take it all in like they were reading a good book. They want to become part of the story. They expect to see content with meaning. They want the environment to tell a story. They want depth. They want meaningful interaction between both themselves and the environment, and the environment with itself.
That sort of player enjoys things that take longer, because it makes sense to take longer. "Working" on something in a game is conducive to the illusion of a virtual world. They expect quality, and a sense of accomplishment with anything they do.
There is no perfect scenario of quality vs quantity or a perfect middle ground for these preferences. Simply put, some player will enjoy that type of gameplay and some players won't.
Where do I draw the line?
Again, all personal preference. My preference is an mmorpg is one that can suspend my disbelief. If things come too easily, I am disappointed. If my character feels too powerful or the environment doesn't present a real threat to my virtual life, I get bored. If I do not have to seek out other people to progress, then the world seems fake, because you can't accomplish shit in the real world on your own.
I will add that I don't think I ever quit a game because it was too hard. I quit them because they are too easy all the time though. I'm sure there is a level at which it becomes too hard and I would quit, I just haven't found a game that does that. Unfortunately most games get derailed in difficulty because they have to pander to the LCD, especially games like this that are aimed at a large diverse group of players.
To use a non MMOPRG example. D3 was not too hard when it first released and people cried and cried until they made the game a complete joke. I finished the game with a 2H Monk with poor gear while people were saying you had to go sword and board with elite gear to stand a chance. Certain mobs and certain affixes needed tweaks because they weren't fun but we didn't need a global shift in power to where the game became a joke and you could win it in your lvl 59 gear.
Sad fact but that is how the gaming industry works, if the average player finds it difficult it will get nerfed until they find it easy just so the really bad players have a chance.
My problem is that I am stubborn to the point of masochism when it comes to fighting against odds (be it tough boss, some extremely unfavorable PvP situation or problematic game mechanics), so - as a rule - everyone already leaves the party before I get even close to my lines in the sand.
For example, this little curse of mine helped me enjoy WAR until the very last second, 99% of folks stumbled over their lines years ago while I was still looking for mine.
Isn't it normal to ditch a product if it is not meeting your standards or the price you pay for it?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Probably when a goal becomes unattainable without fulfilling the goals for 100 other people. I get huge encounters, I understand guild structure and hard work. But when you have to slog through too many peoples shit just to see the light at the end of the tunnel I am fucking out.
See above.
Context there. Kinda need one.
But for the most part when others winge/drama needlessly over their own needs.
When you can't relax because there is someone driving the group too aggressively.
When someone decides to start tossing blame in random directions instead of solving issues.
It's not quite the consumer, but the marketing/publishers needs to ensure everyone consumes their product. It is not easy to make a pristine product without simplifying it. I personally think publishers need to focus once again on depth of content and forget polish. Untapped audience there. Certainly I am one.
In the context of an MMO I have my share, though they are all are often crossed for me
- Low curves of progression If I can't look forward I am checking out.
- Action / Fast paced combat. I have my FPS if I want it, don't need that here.
- PvP Centric. Take away the 2 items above maybe I could get into it, dotted line maybe.
- Solo all the things. Just stop it.
When does "difficult" become "too hard?"
Difficult is too hard when it doesn't make you want to retry. You should be doing oh darn if only I would have hit this skill, dodged that ability, had this set of gear on, brought 2 more friends to fight it. Great Extra Credits episode on this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs
When does "challenging content" become "tedious?"
Never? Challenging content means it is engaging you.
When does "fun" become "un-fun?"
That depends on the person! Let's look at Runescape, some people have fun by logging in every day, cutting trees / fishing, selling their yield to the grand exchange, and merchenting their money.
Some people get their kicks by getting 99 in a skill, some by completing a certain quest or even all of them.
Others find logging in every day and going player killing is fun, some find killing the Godwar bosses fun for the slot machine effect.
I guess fun isn't fun anymore when you're burnt out and lose the childlike whimsy to look for more things to do, more content to discover, more ways to progress.
I am sexier than Helen Keller blindfolded.
I have so many lines in the sand anymore i dont even know where to start. it seems like MMOs come out with new ways to piss me off than to make the game more fun.
@GreYVee:
The context of "fun becoming un-fun" is usually found as a "fad or gimmick" that sounds great at first (GW 2's Dynamic Events and RIFT's Rifts come to mind as examples), but later becomes a "chore."
I think I participated in maybe 15-30 of these DE's in GW 2 with each character I created before I gave them up as a chore. In EQ, I enjoyed the game from level 1-15 or 20. Then, when I had to get into groups to do anything in the game, other then running around Norrath, it became "un-fun" for me. When I finally found a group of similarly minded people and created a Guild, the experience again became fun again for me
@zeme111:
"Challenging becomes tedious"
For me, action combat is challenging. After about an hour, with no forced downtime, I log off, physically and mentally tired. Fighting and combat used to be "challenging." Now, it is just tedious because it has become the number one focus of MMOs.
What helps me with this is variety. I do not mind combat. I can actually enjoy it if it is done in a way I find enjoyable (character ability trumps my own ability, or lack thereof). But if it is 80-90% of the gameplay, it gets tedious very quickly. The same I would say for 80-90% of ANY activity taking precedence. Crafting, housing, singular kinds of questing, grouping.
In EverQuest, I enjoyed many of the variety of activities they presented players. Yes, combat was the main focus of the game, but they had so many other activities available that players back then actually enjoyed doing. Activities like language learning, crafting, combat, grouping, guild functions like healing parties at camping spots, GM run events, fishing during boat rides, and drinking too much alcohol in game so the screen became all wonky and I could not move in a straight line for the life of me! Some of the more sadistic guilds would have "drunken races" in Kelethin (A Wood Elf city built in the trees) and watch players stumble off of the edge of the platforms, many times to their death
Did that make sense?
[EDIT]
I meant to mention the Extra Credits link. I am a fan of that channel and enjoyed this episode immensely
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Here is the crux of where most of the disgruntled players today, including myself, we've drawn so many lines in the sand they completely encircle us, leaving many with nothing to play.
Now I'm not blaming the players, it's true the market evolved down a specific set of designs which we may not care for, but it still is up to us to step across our boundaries and try to find the fun somewhere.
It could involve returning to an older title you enjoyed, playing a newer one and focusing on the elements you enjoy, or stepping totally outside your boundaries.
So often I see someone post, I really like the idea of EVE, but I just can't get past the idea of being a spaceship. Now there are a lot of good reasons not to like EVE, but this is not one of them. Break your barriers and really give it a good trial, you might be surprised.
Same with other games, don't focus on one aspect and toss the baby out with the bath water , look past your limits and you might find the fun again.
ALB, you are definitely a person who wants to enjoy MMOs but are holding yourself back as much as the marketplace is doing to you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I really wish I could like Eve, it does so many things right. The problem is the basic gameplay just isn't fun at all. The combat model they chose to go with is just downright boring and while the non combat aspects are fun they just aren't enough to keep me playing.
Same issue with TSW. If I'm going to play a quest based game that would be the one because they did it the right way, but the combat is just awful so I can't stick with it. When I'm trying to just run by everything because I can't stand doing one more fight it really kills the game.
I, too, have so many lines drawn in the sand I think my head is barely above the sand level
Yes, I do hold myself back. I could log into any MMO out today and find something fun to do in them. I have just gotten a terrible "Bitter Vet" attitude and refuse to support what the industry has become. Every "new MMO" announced I know will be yet another one not made for my enjoyment. It sucks being forgotten...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR