They spent a LOT of time rambling over the simplest idea and are trying to make it sound super inventive when it really is nothing more than a severely limiting design.
Mana bars are NOT the way you control combat.what mana bars usually ,actually almost ALWAYS do is take the game out of the players hands and has the system limit and tell you what you can do.I really noticed this type of problem when i was playing Gorgon.
An example is you have an ability but the mana bar says you can only use it twice,well that is limitation and tells you what you can do instead of your choice.
The PROPER way to control combat is via HATE meters,they should decide how often you want to use an ability.If you are foolish enough to spam a powerful attack and draw hate from a tank,then you cost your healer more healing because you SHOULD take a lot more damage than a tank.Than in turn would put your healer at risk because the healer would have to start spamming heals to keep up with non controlled spammers.
There i see another problem with the design.It sounds like they are so worried about balance.Well if you are running a grouping game and have a Tank ROLE,Balance is the LAST thing you need to worry about because players should control their actions again via the hate meters.
Another point to the so called finding drops to gain new abilities.A BETTER system is to have mobs have varied resistances,it shouldn't be this SIMPLE EQ1 approach where we are worried about the infamous CC mechanic.You should lbe able to pull single mobs or perhaps 2 and slowly wittle away at an entrance ,instead of having to dive into 10-12 mobs and be forced into using a CC method.This again is LIMITING,it is telling YOU how you have to play ,instead of allowing the players to dictate the tactics.
Also the term specialization is a lame term imo.All you are really doing is creating a VERY weak sub class design.It will be further weakened as mentioned because as you add some new ability,likely only 1/2 maybe 3 you will lose some ability from your initial class ROLE.
So all the system is really doing is saying,ok you need CC for this spot ,we will; take away your healing IV and give you a CC ability.However because we are calling this a new specialization,it will likely cost more on your mana bar ,severely limiting it's use,in essence taking away your choice and just saying here,you can cast this CC once and that is it,wait a minute and we let you use it once again.
The whole design sounds sloppy yet severely controlled and limited.Those mana bars will limit everything you can do,to the point the system designers can EASILY design Boss fights because they know your every limitation.HATE meters is the proper way to design combat without the need for limiting mana bars.
One more point.I thought it was dumb seeing a healer role with full clad armor,they need to lose that train of thought right away,the healer should be a paper weight,that needs to manage it's healing choices.
Pantheon is being designed as a niche game; created by and for people who enjoyed Everquest and Vanguard. It is not intended for everyone.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
The game still has to actually get created. There is a long way between here and there and a lot has to be done.......and done right. I'd love to see a game that appeals to the early 2000s idea of an MMORPG again, but let's not forget that what's being said now, and what get's put into code and released are 2 different things, and it's with far too much regularity that these games are never developed according to what we are told is being developed if they get developed at all. we only have to look as far as EQN now vs the promise of "EQN" from 2 years ago.
In other words. I'll believe it when I see it.
The funny thing is, last year, EQN was the "last hope" for the genre. Now it's Pantheon? And if and when Pantheon stalls, fails or turns out to be another shell of empty promises, there will be something else to latch on to at that time. Some things never change.
The game still has to actually get created. There is a long way between here and there and a lot has to be done.......and done right. I'd love to see a game that appeals to the early 2000s idea of an MMORPG again, but let's not forget that what's being said now, and what get's put into code and released are 2 different things, and it's with far too much regularity that these games are never developed according to what we are told is being developed if they get developed at all. we only have to look as far as EQN now vs the promise of "EQN" from 2 years ago.
In other words. I'll believe it when I see it.
The funny thing is, last year, EQN was the "last hope" for the genre. Now it's Pantheon? And if and when Pantheon stalls, fails or turns out to be another shell of empty promises, there will be something else to latch on to at that time. Some things never change.
EQNext never had anything planned for EQ fans. Never. Next is designed for a differend audience, while taking a brand name to sell the game to people that would never play the game otherwise. Sadly that usually works out. But no, EQNext was never considered "last hope" for EQ / Vanguard fans. MAYBE for ESO fans... dunno ;-)
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
The funny thing is, last year, EQN was the "last hope" for the genre. Now it's Pantheon? And if and when Pantheon stalls, fails or turns out to be another shell of empty promises, there will be something else to latch on to at that time. Some things never change.
EQN was never targeted towards fans of EQ or Vanguard. The last thing SOE/Daybreak wants is splitting the existing player base.
From everything I've read, EQN is targeted more towards the GW2 crowd in terms of game play.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by sludgebeard I don't think anyone would have predicted a year ago that EQN would be on the verge of complete annihilation and that Pantheon would be soaring on the wings of a handful of dedicated volunteers and MMO fans.
Say what you want about the game, about Brad, but those young men and women he has working on the game are real gamers, making a real MMO, and I couldn't be prouder of what they are doing right now.
Here's to you pantheon!
True, I hope it launches but I have a rather big fear that this will be SIGIL all over again. It was not the lack of good ideas that killed that one off but financial issues.
I will certainly play it if it ever comes to launch so holding my thumbs.
The game still has to actually get created. There is a long way between here and there and a lot has to be done.......and done right. I'd love to see a game that appeals to the early 2000s idea of an MMORPG again, but let's not forget that what's being said now, and what get's put into code and released are 2 different things, and it's with far too much regularity that these games are never developed according to what we are told is being developed if they get developed at all. we only have to look as far as EQN now vs the promise of "EQN" from 2 years ago.
In other words. I'll believe it when I see it.
The funny thing is, last year, EQN was the "last hope" for the genre. Now it's Pantheon? And if and when Pantheon stalls, fails or turns out to be another shell of empty promises, there will be something else to latch on to at that time. Some things never change.
EQNext never had anything planned for EQ fans. Never. Next is designed for a differend audience, while taking a brand name to sell the game to people that would never play the game otherwise. Sadly that usually works out. But no, EQNext was never considered "last hope" for EQ / Vanguard fans. MAYBE for ESO fans... dunno ;-)
While you may have a point in that the Old School EQ Fans were never really looking at EQN, there were plenty of others who were hailing it as the the last hope. But that's not really my point. What ever EQN was or is going to be or not going to be to what ever fans it appeals to, isn't really my point or concern with Pantheon. The point here is that there is a lot being said about what it's going to be. But it still has to get done. And done right. Time and time again, some developer starts making claims and promises about the next big MMO they are developing. Time and time again, all we ever see is empty or broken promises if we see anything at all.
I am using EQN as a reference because the same thing happened there. 2 years ago, some people were criticizing EQN and others were defending what it was going to be. But as you can see, it isn't and probably won't be anything like what some of the white knights insisted it was going to become. Now we have the new promise by a developer with a questionable history, yet all these things he is saying are being taken as a given. If there ever even is a final finished product, which I personally doubt there ever will be, but even if there is, it is most unlikely to resemble anything like what it being said today. People are saying, "It's got the right list of features" But that's exactly what I am questioning. Anyone can put together a list of what people want to hear. But can they deliver?
EQN was never targeted towards fans of EQ or Vanguard. The last thing SOE/Daybreak wants is splitting the existing player base.
From everything I've read, EQN is targeted more towards the GW2 crowd in terms of game play.
I don't think so, EQN seems to more hope to be a commercial PvE sandbox.
The main likeness with GW2 seems to be the limited number of combat skills and some DEs but there is no way EQN ¨could actually go up against GW2. You can say a lot about ANET but they are excellent on coding a game, they have a great art team and a budget Daybreak only can dream about. Trying to make a new GW2 with the tools Daybreak have is as futile as going up against Wow.
PvE sandboxes though do have potential and if Smed has half a brain he is aiming for that instead. There have been very few good PvE sandboxes, I think AC was the last successful and Blizzard could actually built Wow based on it instead of EQ which would have made MMOs take a very different track. It is not so far fetched as some of you might think, AC was not that much smaller than EQ way back but Blizzards devs played EQ.
Now, I have my doubts that they can pull it off but the potential for loads of cash and many players is there.
Pantheon though seems closer to Vanguard and that is also an interesting path to follow.
I do agree that Pantheon needs to be made before going all hyped up. Just like every other game.
All i can say from MY PERSONAL point of view: Pantheon is the very first MMO since Vanguard that lists ALL I WANT in an MMO while leaving out ALL I DON'T WANT. So i kind of get hyped about a game trying to go in the direction i personally love. The direction i have been looking ever since EQ.
And yes, i have been burned by hype trains just like about everyone else. But i can not help myself. I am hyped here. It just fits my ideas so damn well,... if they can take at least 75% of those ideas to launch, ill be subbed for life.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
They spent a LOT of time rambling over the simplest idea and are trying to make it sound super inventive when it really is nothing more than a severely limiting design.
Mana bars are NOT the way you control combat.what mana bars usually ,actually almost ALWAYS do is take the game out of the players hands and has the system limit and tell you what you can do.I really noticed this type of problem when i was playing Gorgon.
An example is you have an ability but the mana bar says you can only use it twice,well that is limitation and tells you what you can do instead of your choice.
The PROPER way to control combat is via HATE meters,they should decide how often you want to use an ability.If you are foolish enough to spam a powerful attack and draw hate from a tank,then you cost your healer more healing because you SHOULD take a lot more damage than a tank.Than in turn would put your healer at risk because the healer would have to start spamming heals to keep up with non controlled spammers.
There i see another problem with the design.It sounds like they are so worried about balance.Well if you are running a grouping game and have a Tank ROLE,Balance is the LAST thing you need to worry about because players should control their actions again via the hate meters.
Another point to the so called finding drops to gain new abilities.A BETTER system is to have mobs have varied resistances,it shouldn't be this SIMPLE EQ1 approach where we are worried about the infamous CC mechanic.You should lbe able to pull single mobs or perhaps 2 and slowly wittle away at an entrance ,instead of having to dive into 10-12 mobs and be forced into using a CC method.This again is LIMITING,it is telling YOU how you have to play ,instead of allowing the players to dictate the tactics.
Also the term specialization is a lame term imo.All you are really doing is creating a VERY weak sub class design.It will be further weakened as mentioned because as you add some new ability,likely only 1/2 maybe 3 you will lose some ability from your initial class ROLE.
So all the system is really doing is saying,ok you need CC for this spot ,we will; take away your healing IV and give you a CC ability.However because we are calling this a new specialization,it will likely cost more on your mana bar ,severely limiting it's use,in essence taking away your choice and just saying here,you can cast this CC once and that is it,wait a minute and we let you use it once again.
The whole design sounds sloppy yet severely controlled and limited.Those mana bars will limit everything you can do,to the point the system designers can EASILY design Boss fights because they know your every limitation.HATE meters is the proper way to design combat without the need for limiting mana bars.
One more point.I thought it was dumb seeing a healer role with full clad armor,they need to lose that train of thought right away,the healer should be a paper weight,that needs to manage it's healing choices.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but lets clear some things up. This discussion is about design and their initial design for the system. That system is ever changing and not in a final form. The mana system is a way to add depth to a combat system not a way to change traditional mmo combat. They aren't trying to reinvent the wheel and how many of these dodge roll action mmo's have to fail before you realize that fast paced combat is not what MMORPG's were about. If you don't understand that concept then I feel truely sad for you because you don't understand what true fun is.
Comments
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Pantheon is being designed as a niche game; created by and for people who enjoyed Everquest and Vanguard. It is not intended for everyone.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
The game still has to actually get created. There is a long way between here and there and a lot has to be done.......and done right. I'd love to see a game that appeals to the early 2000s idea of an MMORPG again, but let's not forget that what's being said now, and what get's put into code and released are 2 different things, and it's with far too much regularity that these games are never developed according to what we are told is being developed if they get developed at all. we only have to look as far as EQN now vs the promise of "EQN" from 2 years ago.
In other words. I'll believe it when I see it.
The funny thing is, last year, EQN was the "last hope" for the genre. Now it's Pantheon? And if and when Pantheon stalls, fails or turns out to be another shell of empty promises, there will be something else to latch on to at that time. Some things never change.
EQNext never had anything planned for EQ fans. Never.
Next is designed for a differend audience, while taking a brand name to sell the game to people that would never play the game otherwise. Sadly that usually works out. But no, EQNext was never considered "last hope" for EQ / Vanguard fans. MAYBE for ESO fans... dunno ;-)
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
EQN was never targeted towards fans of EQ or Vanguard. The last thing SOE/Daybreak wants is splitting the existing player base.
From everything I've read, EQN is targeted more towards the GW2 crowd in terms of game play.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
True, I hope it launches but I have a rather big fear that this will be SIGIL all over again. It was not the lack of good ideas that killed that one off but financial issues.
I will certainly play it if it ever comes to launch so holding my thumbs.
While you may have a point in that the Old School EQ Fans were never really looking at EQN, there were plenty of others who were hailing it as the the last hope. But that's not really my point. What ever EQN was or is going to be or not going to be to what ever fans it appeals to, isn't really my point or concern with Pantheon. The point here is that there is a lot being said about what it's going to be. But it still has to get done. And done right. Time and time again, some developer starts making claims and promises about the next big MMO they are developing. Time and time again, all we ever see is empty or broken promises if we see anything at all.
I am using EQN as a reference because the same thing happened there. 2 years ago, some people were criticizing EQN and others were defending what it was going to be. But as you can see, it isn't and probably won't be anything like what some of the white knights insisted it was going to become. Now we have the new promise by a developer with a questionable history, yet all these things he is saying are being taken as a given. If there ever even is a final finished product, which I personally doubt there ever will be, but even if there is, it is most unlikely to resemble anything like what it being said today. People are saying, "It's got the right list of features" But that's exactly what I am questioning. Anyone can put together a list of what people want to hear. But can they deliver?
I don't think so, EQN seems to more hope to be a commercial PvE sandbox.
The main likeness with GW2 seems to be the limited number of combat skills and some DEs but there is no way EQN ¨could actually go up against GW2. You can say a lot about ANET but they are excellent on coding a game, they have a great art team and a budget Daybreak only can dream about. Trying to make a new GW2 with the tools Daybreak have is as futile as going up against Wow.
PvE sandboxes though do have potential and if Smed has half a brain he is aiming for that instead. There have been very few good PvE sandboxes, I think AC was the last successful and Blizzard could actually built Wow based on it instead of EQ which would have made MMOs take a very different track. It is not so far fetched as some of you might think, AC was not that much smaller than EQ way back but Blizzards devs played EQ.
Now, I have my doubts that they can pull it off but the potential for loads of cash and many players is there.
Pantheon though seems closer to Vanguard and that is also an interesting path to follow.
I do agree that Pantheon needs to be made before going all hyped up. Just like every other game.
All i can say from MY PERSONAL point of view: Pantheon is the very first MMO since Vanguard that lists ALL I WANT in an MMO while leaving out ALL I DON'T WANT. So i kind of get hyped about a game trying to go in the direction i personally love. The direction i have been looking ever since EQ.
And yes, i have been burned by hype trains just like about everyone else. But i can not help myself. I am hyped here. It just fits my ideas so damn well,... if they can take at least 75% of those ideas to launch, ill be subbed for life.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but lets clear some things up. This discussion is about design and their initial design for the system. That system is ever changing and not in a final form. The mana system is a way to add depth to a combat system not a way to change traditional mmo combat. They aren't trying to reinvent the wheel and how many of these dodge roll action mmo's have to fail before you realize that fast paced combat is not what MMORPG's were about. If you don't understand that concept then I feel truely sad for you because you don't understand what true fun is.