As someone who wants to play a MMORPG that is a virtual world with no cash shop it looks pretty bleak.
Also this doesn't even go into percentages like how many of these new MMOs along with the old have cash shops now. That and I would not call everything getting cash shops or "more payment options" better in any way.
Call me old fashioned but I want to kill the boss riding a skeleton horse mount and loot it not pay for it in a cash shop.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Never have there been more games available to play.
You know what's a greater tragedy than absolute poverty - is being surrounded by so much abundance and saying that you have nothing.
Perspective
So. Much. This.
This will likely degrade into a purely subjective argument of quality vs. quantity, however, even if you are going to take the quality side of the argument you won't have a leg to stand on.
The quality of the games one would hold up as examples from the old days were not nearly as polished as the current crop of MMOs.
There might not be anything YOU are interested in, OP. But the sheer number of people playing in the MMO genre today compared to "the good old days" is a cold hard fact that gamers simply don't agree with you.
If you look around these forums you'll see that I'm definitely of the mind that today's MMO are missing something yesteryear's MMOs had, but trying to make an argument that this is the WORST time period to be an MMOer is missing the mark by a long shot.
But as with every other argument in our genre, it comes down to how differently the community defines things like "fun", "gameplay", "content", etc.
As I've said many times before, I'd love to see our modern MMOs make an effort to incorporate things that I think made the old MMOs great. But the new ones have a lot of great features and ideas to offer. I'd like to see them brought together, and not because I think one is time period amazing and the other is absolute garbage.
That kind of thinking is what brings such a high level to toxicity to this community.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The worst period was without a doubt 2004-2011ish.
That's when all the classic MMOs were being violently retooled to try to catch the WoW audience, and new MMOs were rushed out the door having their features morphed into WoW clones.
Just oceans of bad MMOs mimicing a fairly sub standard MMO to begin with. You couldn't go home, because the changes ruined your old MMO just as surely as the new ones coming out.
Publishers have failed enough times that we're FINALLY seeing devs return to their senses, but we're not there yet.
The last impressive AAA MMO release was almost 10 years ago, yuck.
From 1997-2004 we had niche MMOs serving every possible demographic, all doing things differently. Everyone had something for them.
Today we have about a hundred more MMOs than we used to, but they're all damn near identical and please nobody. So no, unless you're that very small number of people these MMOs are aimed at, this is an awful time for players AND devs.
Well, I am happy for those who apparently have a great time in whatever game they currently play. Unfortunately, I agree with the OP. In the last year I've subscribed to ESO, SWToR, WoW, Rift, DCUO, TSW, went back to GW2, and then continued to game hop.
I used to stick with games like WAR for years, but now I get bored after 1-2 months. If I was a raider, I'd probably find a new home right away, but the options for pvpers are horrible. GW2 was fun for two years. That being said, I cannot bring myself to play the same game mode on the same maps any longer.
That actually does sound terrible to me. If you exclude the payment model point then each can be taken as quantity over quality. I'm not saying that's true when comparing the games now to those a decade (or so) ago, simply that's how I read the post. Truthfully I think there are several good games out there, and if they were our only options - much like the late 90's/early 2000's - it wouldn't seem like the genre had changed much.
As for payment model.. I don't care. Charge me $15/month or $50/month, charge for cash shops I'll never even look at, require a pint of blood per three months played. Whatever. If I enjoy the game I would do any of those. Actually, I'm down for a blood + Cash shop model. Hardcore.
That actually does sound terrible to me. If you exclude the payment model point then each can be taken as quantity over quality. I'm not saying that's true when comparing the games now to those a decade (or so) ago, simply that's how I read the post. Truthfully I think there are several good games out there, and if they were our only options - much like the late 90's/early 2000's - it wouldn't seem like the genre had changed much.
As for payment model.. I don't care. Charge me $15/month or $50/month, charge for cash shops I'll never even look at, require a pint of blood per three months played. Whatever. If I enjoy the game I would do any of those. Actually, I'm down for a blood + Cash shop model. Hardcore.
So you would dislike something simply because it is popular? Like fans of certain bands who say "they got too big, so I no longer like them". I don't understand the problem with bigger if the vision of a particular game remains the same. Granted, it is more difficult to do the bigger a game gets.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
So you would dislike something simply because it is popular? Like fans of certain bands who say "they got too big, so I no longer like them". I don't understand the problem with bigger if the vision of a particular game remains the same. Granted, it is more difficult to do the bigger a game gets.
I'm not sure I'll be replying to what gave you that impression, but the answer to your question is no. Just because the MMO industry is bigger now doesn't make it worse, I was pointing out the quantity of titles, overall players, and variation doesn't necessarily make it better. Not knocking the OP, but the question - if it was question - is rather vague. If personal enjoyment is the only qualifying factor the answers are all subjective. The good news? That means everyone can be right.
Well, there are few really expensive western games being made by larger western publishers right now then in many years but there are also a whole bunch of smaller and kickstarters whih hopefully leads to some new and fresh ideas.
I think the most interesting period in MMO gaming since 2004 is about to start, it might be a bumpy ride since these ain't $80M+ games but it will also be fun since the clonewars finally have died down.
I started in 2003 with SWG (pre-cu) and have played MMOs consistantly ever since. Everyone remembers their first piece of ... err ... their first mmo. To most, their first is their favorite and that is understandable being it was a time of new horizons.
Now years later, we have so many games and I dare say that most of them are complete wastes of time. However, we still have a large number of good MMOs to choose from. Back then, we had few and we accepted what they offered because that was it. There was no other choice.
Now we have more choices and if you haven't found a game that you enjoy with all these choices, then the problem is you. Instead of accepting some of the bad with the good in a game, you spotlight the bad and say the game is crap and continue to wait for the perfect game. Well, good luck.
There are popular games listed on this website that I don't much care for. Doesn't mean it is a bad game, just means I found another game that I like.
For example, I can't really get into GW2 but if there was no ESO, I would probably play GW2 more. It is not a bad game, just I think ESO is much better.
I think this day is the best period to be an MMO gamer. So much choice AND many of the old MMOs that some say are the best are still online. So why does someone say they hate MMOs today and which games were like this or that, and yet they do not play this or that?
I dont post here much. The reason, I am usually in a game. I do come here often though because I like to keep up with what is going on.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
All of those things are not true about every "modern" or current MMO. We have variety
One or more of them is true about every MMO released in the last 5 years.
Quantity is not equal to quality. While Quality may be subjective, there are two facts that are not.
Older games never had population crashes: they may have experienced slowly declining populations as the games aged, but baring a radical change to the core game (SWG), none have ever had a population crash.
Newer games routinely have a population crash 2-3 months after launch as they fail to engage the players.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Bad games will die, good games flourish. GW2, ESO,TSW,FF are all doing well. as for our new strawman of the day 'crashing' population- wow,Conan,Lotr, rift etc all had huge spikes at one time or the other. Interestingly though the new MMO seem to be quite stable with populations in the hundreds if thousands, numbers those older Hanes dreamed of.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Quantity is not equal to quality. While Quality may be subjective, there are two facts that are not.
Older games never had population crashes: they may have experienced slowly declining populations as the games aged, but baring a radical change to the core game (SWG), none have ever had a population crash.
Newer games routinely have a population crash 2-3 months after launch as they fail to engage the players.
Your second point isn't fact, due to adding "as they fail to engage the players" - unless boredom has been proven as the sole contributing factor. Content locusts are certainly engaged for a short period of time. Others move when their guild/group moves, others due to the "grass is always greener" idea, etc.
It's important to note that quantity could potentially have a large part. One could easily argue the lack of choice is what kept players in older games, and the current plethora of options is what keeps people jumping around.
I'm not up for doing any research or polling, so I won't attempt to prove that point. Plus I'm not getting paid. Still, it should be fairly logical that perceived "quality" and having more options BOTH impact the length of time players stay in one game.
Posting to try to start trouble with people who are just talking in their own thread - yeah that reeks of unsatisfied. It's psychological that people attack what they can't confront in themselves. So, when you say someone else to buck and be satisfied because you are is untrue - if you were satisfied you wouldn't be playing 10 games like you have said (and suggested) and you wouldn't have the additional care to look around for threads that obviously weren't for you by the title alone.
You want an actual problem. I think I've been the biggest broken record about this stuff around - how many times do I have to retype it out.
Take your choice. Just because I didn't say it all in this post doesn't mean I haven't elsewhere here.
This post is filled with nonsense, disagreeing with people on a forum is the entire point of forums existing, it's a place for debate.. it's not your own private party, any topic is for anyone.
On top of that I doubt many would feel any want or desire to respond if folks simply talked about what they want, rather than talk about status, other games or it's players, the MMORPG community, etc.. as that's what most of these posts cover. Few simply leave it at their desires, they must continually bait the other side of the spectrum. The rest simply try and pigeon hole groups into their own ill-conceived placing. Like all old schoolers want this, while the noobs want that... it's growing old and tired, hence why it just turns into a pissing match.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So you're saying it's the worse time ever to an MMO gamer because there isn't a big budget game in development that we are all hyped up about that can't possibly live up to the hype and is inevitably going to be a huge disappointment whenever it actually releases?
The worst period for me was without a doubt 2008-2015. At least from 98-2006ish i had shit to actually play. Its just now getting better for me personally after just a ridiculously long dry spell.
I started in 2003 with SWG (pre-cu) and have played MMOs consistantly ever since. Everyone remembers their first piece of ... err ... their first mmo. To most, their first is their favorite and that is understandable being it was a time of new horizons.
Now years later, we have so many games and I dare say that most of them are complete wastes of time. However, we still have a large number of good MMOs to choose from. Back then, we had few and we accepted what they offered because that was it. There was no other choice.
Now we have more choices and if you haven't found a game that you enjoy with all these choices, then the problem is you. Instead of accepting some of the bad with the good in a game, you spotlight the bad and say the game is crap and continue to wait for the perfect game. Well, good luck.
There are popular games listed on this website that I don't much care for. Doesn't mean it is a bad game, just means I found another game that I like.
For example, I can't really get into GW2 but if there was no ESO, I would probably play GW2 more. It is not a bad game, just I think ESO is much better.
I think this day is the best period to be an MMO gamer. So much choice AND many of the old MMOs that some say are the best are still online. So why does someone say they hate MMOs today and which games were like this or that, and yet they do not play this or that?
I dont post here much. The reason, I am usually in a game. I do come here often though because I like to keep up with what is going on.
Agreed. I will never find the perfect game, cause no game has been created just for me. Even game designers have to change their games because of unforeseen events. Games like life are give and take. You take the good with the bad. There is really no point in always looking at the bad cause what can you do to change it? Focus on the parts you like and take it from there. No one wants to be that co-worker nobody wants to be next to cause they spend all of their time talking about what's wrong with everything.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Originally posted by XImpalerX I felt that way for a while, but ever since giving ffxiv a fair chance I feel that it is the best time to be an MMO gamer
I'll be honest, I don't get all of the love for FFXIV. I played it for two months, but once I reached end game it amounted to me just sitting in a town looking for groups to run instanced dungeons / encounters for a gear treadmill. It was basically a lobby based grinder, with a few little side hobbies with fishing and crafting.
Did the game change drastically after I left to make it actually fun and enjoyable?
Well, let's have it. -- Do you think this is the least prolific period in the MMO/RPG - Markets? I know it's always a sitaution where we the gamers feel like we are ALWAYS waiting for the next title to deliver.
- However, have we come full circle to both the realization there simply is no title worth waiting for, and we will always be left without what we desire. More over- What about what is currently out. I look over my rather impressive collections of MMOs, and only 1-2 even seem like something i would want to play right now (GW2, FF14) - And neither are games i really -want- to play, but rather in the void of having nothing else to play, they are sufficent time-wasters, i don't really care to play them or not. -- So what happened, do you feel like this is a down-trodden period in the MMO industry, do you think it will recover? -- I'm personally tired of the waiting on "xy" title, and becoming instantly disgusted with the poor tactics employed in the deployment of the game that ends up leaving me right back to waiting on the next title. Can we stick a fork in it, and call it done?
Atm shopping for MMO's is alot like trying to get laid in prison. There's a ton of options but they're all terrible.
Comments
As someone who wants to play a MMORPG that is a virtual world with no cash shop it looks pretty bleak.
Also this doesn't even go into percentages like how many of these new MMOs along with the old have cash shops now. That and I would not call everything getting cash shops or "more payment options" better in any way.
Call me old fashioned but I want to kill the boss riding a skeleton horse mount and loot it not pay for it in a cash shop.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So. Much. This.
This will likely degrade into a purely subjective argument of quality vs. quantity, however, even if you are going to take the quality side of the argument you won't have a leg to stand on.
The quality of the games one would hold up as examples from the old days were not nearly as polished as the current crop of MMOs.
There might not be anything YOU are interested in, OP. But the sheer number of people playing in the MMO genre today compared to "the good old days" is a cold hard fact that gamers simply don't agree with you.
If you look around these forums you'll see that I'm definitely of the mind that today's MMO are missing something yesteryear's MMOs had, but trying to make an argument that this is the WORST time period to be an MMOer is missing the mark by a long shot.
But as with every other argument in our genre, it comes down to how differently the community defines things like "fun", "gameplay", "content", etc.
As I've said many times before, I'd love to see our modern MMOs make an effort to incorporate things that I think made the old MMOs great. But the new ones have a lot of great features and ideas to offer. I'd like to see them brought together, and not because I think one is time period amazing and the other is absolute garbage.
That kind of thinking is what brings such a high level to toxicity to this community.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The worst period was without a doubt 2004-2011ish.
That's when all the classic MMOs were being violently retooled to try to catch the WoW audience, and new MMOs were rushed out the door having their features morphed into WoW clones.
Just oceans of bad MMOs mimicing a fairly sub standard MMO to begin with. You couldn't go home, because the changes ruined your old MMO just as surely as the new ones coming out.
Publishers have failed enough times that we're FINALLY seeing devs return to their senses, but we're not there yet.
The last impressive AAA MMO release was almost 10 years ago, yuck.
From 1997-2004 we had niche MMOs serving every possible demographic, all doing things differently. Everyone had something for them.
Today we have about a hundred more MMOs than we used to, but they're all damn near identical and please nobody. So no, unless you're that very small number of people these MMOs are aimed at, this is an awful time for players AND devs.
Well, I am happy for those who apparently have a great time in whatever game they currently play. Unfortunately, I agree with the OP. In the last year I've subscribed to ESO, SWToR, WoW, Rift, DCUO, TSW, went back to GW2, and then continued to game hop.
I used to stick with games like WAR for years, but now I get bored after 1-2 months. If I was a raider, I'd probably find a new home right away, but the options for pvpers are horrible. GW2 was fun for two years. That being said, I cannot bring myself to play the same game mode on the same maps any longer.
That actually does sound terrible to me. If you exclude the payment model point then each can be taken as quantity over quality. I'm not saying that's true when comparing the games now to those a decade (or so) ago, simply that's how I read the post. Truthfully I think there are several good games out there, and if they were our only options - much like the late 90's/early 2000's - it wouldn't seem like the genre had changed much.
As for payment model.. I don't care. Charge me $15/month or $50/month, charge for cash shops I'll never even look at, require a pint of blood per three months played. Whatever. If I enjoy the game I would do any of those. Actually, I'm down for a blood + Cash shop model. Hardcore.
- Nellus
So you would dislike something simply because it is popular? Like fans of certain bands who say "they got too big, so I no longer like them". I don't understand the problem with bigger if the vision of a particular game remains the same. Granted, it is more difficult to do the bigger a game gets.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
I'm not sure I'll be replying to what gave you that impression, but the answer to your question is no. Just because the MMO industry is bigger now doesn't make it worse, I was pointing out the quantity of titles, overall players, and variation doesn't necessarily make it better. Not knocking the OP, but the question - if it was question - is rather vague. If personal enjoyment is the only qualifying factor the answers are all subjective. The good news? That means everyone can be right.
- Nellus
Well, there are few really expensive western games being made by larger western publishers right now then in many years but there are also a whole bunch of smaller and kickstarters whih hopefully leads to some new and fresh ideas.
I think the most interesting period in MMO gaming since 2004 is about to start, it might be a bumpy ride since these ain't $80M+ games but it will also be fun since the clonewars finally have died down.
I started in 2003 with SWG (pre-cu) and have played MMOs consistantly ever since. Everyone remembers their first piece of ... err ... their first mmo. To most, their first is their favorite and that is understandable being it was a time of new horizons.
Now years later, we have so many games and I dare say that most of them are complete wastes of time. However, we still have a large number of good MMOs to choose from. Back then, we had few and we accepted what they offered because that was it. There was no other choice.
Now we have more choices and if you haven't found a game that you enjoy with all these choices, then the problem is you. Instead of accepting some of the bad with the good in a game, you spotlight the bad and say the game is crap and continue to wait for the perfect game. Well, good luck.
There are popular games listed on this website that I don't much care for. Doesn't mean it is a bad game, just means I found another game that I like.
For example, I can't really get into GW2 but if there was no ESO, I would probably play GW2 more. It is not a bad game, just I think ESO is much better.
I think this day is the best period to be an MMO gamer. So much choice AND many of the old MMOs that some say are the best are still online. So why does someone say they hate MMOs today and which games were like this or that, and yet they do not play this or that?
I dont post here much. The reason, I am usually in a game. I do come here often though because I like to keep up with what is going on.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
All of those things are not true about every "modern" or current MMO. We have variety
That's the point...
Just because some "bad" trends have become popular, doesn't mean all the games follow them.
One or more of them is true about every MMO released in the last 5 years.
Quantity is not equal to quality. While Quality may be subjective, there are two facts that are not.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Your second point isn't fact, due to adding "as they fail to engage the players" - unless boredom has been proven as the sole contributing factor. Content locusts are certainly engaged for a short period of time. Others move when their guild/group moves, others due to the "grass is always greener" idea, etc.
It's important to note that quantity could potentially have a large part. One could easily argue the lack of choice is what kept players in older games, and the current plethora of options is what keeps people jumping around.
I'm not up for doing any research or polling, so I won't attempt to prove that point. Plus I'm not getting paid. Still, it should be fairly logical that perceived "quality" and having more options BOTH impact the length of time players stay in one game.
- Nellus
This post is filled with nonsense, disagreeing with people on a forum is the entire point of forums existing, it's a place for debate.. it's not your own private party, any topic is for anyone.
On top of that I doubt many would feel any want or desire to respond if folks simply talked about what they want, rather than talk about status, other games or it's players, the MMORPG community, etc.. as that's what most of these posts cover. Few simply leave it at their desires, they must continually bait the other side of the spectrum. The rest simply try and pigeon hole groups into their own ill-conceived placing. Like all old schoolers want this, while the noobs want that... it's growing old and tired, hence why it just turns into a pissing match.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So you're saying it's the worse time ever to an MMO gamer because there isn't a big budget game in development that we are all hyped up about that can't possibly live up to the hype and is inevitably going to be a huge disappointment whenever it actually releases?
Yeah I know what you mean.
Certainly worst MMORPG peroid I can remember.
It is not a surprise though - MMORPG genre is on a slippery slope since around 2005-2008.
For some people it's certainly a bad period because their specific market segment hasn't been served in a while.
For others it's one of the best periods with more products to choose from than before.
Can't generalize it.
The worst period i dont know, but the best i do know, its now!
And i believe the next years will be even better.
Agreed. I will never find the perfect game, cause no game has been created just for me. Even game designers have to change their games because of unforeseen events. Games like life are give and take. You take the good with the bad. There is really no point in always looking at the bad cause what can you do to change it? Focus on the parts you like and take it from there. No one wants to be that co-worker nobody wants to be next to cause they spend all of their time talking about what's wrong with everything.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I'll be honest, I don't get all of the love for FFXIV. I played it for two months, but once I reached end game it amounted to me just sitting in a town looking for groups to run instanced dungeons / encounters for a gear treadmill. It was basically a lobby based grinder, with a few little side hobbies with fishing and crafting.
Did the game change drastically after I left to make it actually fun and enjoyable?
Atm shopping for MMO's is alot like trying to get laid in prison. There's a ton of options but they're all terrible.