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I hope some MMOs ditch the map in the future.
tixylix
Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
Playing Dayz back in the day, you started off with no map and I never actually found one for months. I built up this mental image of the world I was playing in and I remembered how to get around by using the position of the sun or remembering landmarks. I remember EverQuest back in the day and I don't remember ever having a map, it made the world far more scary and immersive to explore. Again with Dark Souls, there isn't a map and so I build the world up in my head, I don't know what is around the corner and I have to remember where to go if I die.
There is just something so amazing when you don't have a map or a mini map, where you don't quite know where to go and have to work it out for yourselves and remember. You cannot just just see an icon of where you are and an icon of where to go, you cannot see where you'll be safe or what is potentially around the corner.
For me having a map is like watching a Movie based on a book, where you're given everything visually and there is no room for your imagination. Where as not having a Map is like reading the book, where you're having the world described to you and you mentally build an image of it in your head.
What I really love as well is when quests were a new thing in MMOs, you had WoW which gave you a waypoint and it just made them a boring grind from 1 - 60. Where as EQ2 didn't give you that help, you had to read the quest text and work it all out for yourself. It made the quests feel like fun content, like puzzles and not just there to get through as quick as possible. It had so many amazing quests which really made you think and I loved the ones like the Froglok unlock quests. Where as now in an MMO, they've become just a check list and you don't have to think throughout the whole thing, even combat has become really easy. When I played EQ2 in beta you had to group, you had to be scared of what was around because you could get owned, now though you can tank 10 mobs at once, it is so boring and the challenge has gone.
Does any one remember how you use to have to talk to NPCs in EverQuest? It wasn't just clicking on them and accepting a quest. I would love this to come back again, where you feel like you're naturally interacting with NPCs, where you can say what you want and have key words trigger a reaction. Not like frigging what Bioware have done where you have to pick a canned reaction, like why can't I have certain trigger worlds that I can out in my own sentence like EverQuest?
Games like Dark Souls and BloodBorne have proved that people want these experience, I hope we get them in MMO form.
Comments
This is mostly how I feel with regards to quests, quests logs, and GPS. I've gone over it in a few other threads, but it seems to take a lot away from the game. Following GPS and Quest Logs around all day isn't that fun. There really isn't any decision making in that process. You are just following along a safe set path that is predefined for you. I also agree with the building a mental image of your surroundings being important. This connects you far more to the different areas in the game and makes them more exciting since you don't know what is coming next. Most people will probably write it off as a time sync, but it adds a lot to the game for some people. It's also good for building mental strength. People will also probably suggest that you can still look things up outside the game. This is true, but you can choose not to look things up and have more of a challenge. At least it is not in the game and forced on you. Even if you look things up online it will still be more difficult and involve more decision making then just following a GPS and Quest Log around in game. Having to go look things up and do some research is a decision making process.
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I'm up for this. I too enjoyed having to learn the zone back in the day. Of course I would look at EQAtlas.com but it still didn't have GPS showing me my exact spot in the zone. It was a thing that made the experienced players more valuable, they could help lead you through a zone more safely.
I guess this is another thing we have lost along the way. But we need to remember that we have a whole other group playing with us now who want to get to the action as fast as possible, so they aren't going to like things like this.
I agree with you although I don't mind a very vague 'here be dragon's' type of map. In that effect alone I find the map in LotRO to be workable as the major landmarks aren't shown and you have to explore and stumble upon them. The map for AoC is kind of the same as far as villages go, although they show resource centers. I'd rather know where the villages are myself.
Finding quests and NPC's have become way to easy. Why is it so hard to read to quest. 'East of here' is good enough I don't need an arrow too. Of course I guess players couldn't max out in hours if they actually had to take their time to play the game.
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No, what they want is no map feature period in the game... not a choice... the whole point is that maps make the game too damn easy. You would need to follow the terrain to find features... no more looking at your compass or map to direct you.
I agree that not having a map has worked for quite a few games. No map would be fun at the beginning but it will get tedious quite quickly. Even in real life we use maps all the time. Have you tried going to a new country/city and not looking at a map at all. Have fun finding out where you need to go.
You have clearly never played WoW from 1 to 60. When I levelled up from 1 to 60 there were no waypoints whatsoever and you had to read the quests and figure out what you needed to do. Some of them were quite difficult to figure out.
Again you have NOT played WoW when it launched or during TBC.
Also when WoW launched, quests were a new thing. EQ2's questing was lacking. WoW pretty much was the first game to focus on questing as the main form of levelling and when it launched it was out of this world good. The immersion was insane. But you haven't played WoW then so how can you know right?
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Ya I agree! Many games are like that now! Everyone complains but don't look for simple ways to fix it. Example, GW2 everyone complains about being able to instantly teleport. It's easy to just not do it if you don't want to, but they would rather complain.
I can see the OPs reasons though, because ESO did the same thing and it does help you remember areas better and it does make it more immersive. More developers should make it an option though.
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Beat me to it.
Yes, no one is forcing you to hit the M Key (usually the default for map).
So while others may like maps, they do not need to be taken out. It's far easier to NOT hit the M key for your immersion than to explain to those who DO like maps why they can't have it.
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The wheat side of me has to agree, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. And we should not limit others who do want it being that it is there afterall.
but the Frosted side says screw that. You will appreciate the game more,..respect the world, the terrain,..have a more immersive experience if you have to actually remember trails and trees and landmarks instead of glowy waypoints and GPS blips.
You won't blaze through content and quest hubs so quickly like chocolate milk if you have to actually know what the NPC quest-giver's story is. Remember their name. Talk to random npc's , interact with them, looking for content as opposed to looking for huge Floating question marks above their heads. It's for your own good!!
now git off me lawn unless you have some graph paper.
Just like when a game comes out with no Map option, people are going to be screaming and crying that they cant press M to use a map.
and im going to say, nobody is forcing you to play this game.
I don't really mind maps. I sort of dislike X marks the spot though. I like "fog maps" havn't explored a part of the map then it's not shown on the map untill you do. When it's a full detailed map I tend to ignore it most of the time as I love exploring. Still many themepark-ish mmorgp allow me that niche...
And with internet being what it is as a company you rather serve your players then allow 3rd party mods to your game.
So in my opinion it has no use to ditch the map aslong the map is given as a option. And I am pretty sure if a game doesn't offer a map maps will be ready before release of that game on the internet made by players.
No thanks, I've played a couple games with no map and it is extremely tedious for new players to get to anywhere. All it does is drive people away.
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As many were discussing, it's easy just to not use a lot of those features if you want it harder. Heck, if you want it really challenging play in a zone 10 levels higher without armor. I think the main thing is to give the options to choose how you want to play. Some people don't want the difficulty because they haven't the time, or some may just like a less challenging game than others. Making it too difficult for some will discourage them from playing perhaps.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Telling people to simply not use a feature in a game is like telling someone to enter a fist fight with one arm tied behind your back, just because they want a challenge. What if that person still wants to be competitive while leveling, in pvp, or what ever? They are going to have a massive distinct disadvantage over those that are using those mechanics.
As far as web sites having maps etc. You can't get around that, but those websites won't tell you exactly where you are on those maps at all times. If the world's in game are incredibly vast, with a lot of depth, it's pretty easy to still get lost even if you have a map. (until you really learn the world)
Just look at h1z1 or dayZ. Both of them have maps, but there are plenty of times I've wondered around for 10-15 min without a clue where I was until I got my bearings via landmarks etc.
Please be honest here, how much of this isn't about you not wanting to see a map but to force others to not have a map?
Why is the option to turn off maps on a per player basis not good enough for you? Don't say the simple answer you gave above as it isn't good enough.
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The way games are designed with quest hubs you can't really turn off maps. The quest don't usually give good enough discriptions on where to go.
I would like to see map making in a game. You make a basic map of where you go. Players who want to study map making can level of the skill and make detailed maps of areas and sell them. But this type of in game thing is lost on most players and developers. You need to be clicking ! ? and mindlessly killing things.
I think a better approach is discovering the map, that's what most old school games featured. In futuristic games you accessed terminals to download map information, in fantasy medieval settings you filled out your map by finding locations. It's lore appropriate and immersive. Even if there was a quest indicator, it simply gave you a direction to follow, with descriptions on finding the right trail.
I never viewed this as a difficulty factor though, it simply rewarded exploration and fiddling. The encounters themselves provided the real challenge. Finding them was simply more of the fun as you typically uncovered other things in the process.
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It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
I know I do this often, but once again there is a game being created in response to requests like these.
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen.
Because I want to be on an even playing field with all the other players, that's why. A better solution is for you to play a different game that has maps if that is your thing. That's pretty much all of them, so you won't have much trouble. There's is no need to inflict your desire for maps on all of us by insisting that every game has them.