Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other.
If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.
Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.
I could not have said this better myself.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other.
If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.
Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.
you cannot go more simple than trinity, so no, there will never be something "better" for YOU.
And thats fine. But what trinity isnt: it isnt superior, its inferior.
But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine.
Unfortunately still far from being a reality in a open world massive environment.
When they can do it though, things will be fun.
I guess UO, AC, EVE, and Wizard 101 are now no longer MMOs.
UO not being a 3D game puts it in a special category, as you can do things with a 2D game that aren't as simple with a 3D game.
Compared to the level of something you can do in a controlled environment, MMOs' AI and collision detection are miles behind.
One just needs to compare GW1 to GW2.
Didn't see that one coming.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.
I'm pretty sure you didnt try 99% of all korean mmo, not even 10%. Many popular korean games allow trinity in some form and dedicated players use it to maximize effectiveness.
Trinity is easier to balance and encourages social activity but lacks creativity. Strict non-trinity design is either "everyone is same but looks different" or impossible to balance within reasonable time/budget.
No wonder any worthy developer mixes both ways. Most common example would be "hybrid is self-sufficient but excels at nothing, narrow specialized guy depends on proper party but godlike in his role if used right"
MMORPG genre is being rethought now, devs try new stuff in many directions so in the end even if their games fail we still get some data. More data - easier to make game where any solo player and any kind of party will have place and make sense.
As for now, play classic mmos with your beloved trinity and leave "twitch is an only skill" people to their toys.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other.
If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.
Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.
Non holy trinity mechanics do not diminish the importance of the group - they diminish the importance of certain roles fullfiled by a single individual that the holy trinity glorify.
All MMORPGs have a giant metric ton of solo play - the open world questing is all solo.
The holy trinity only exist in the confines of certain instances or activities that are the minority of the gameplay.
And of course there are alternatives to that.
Look at Tequatl or the Triple Wurm encounters or the Silverwastes in GW2 - there are multiple roles to be filled or otherwise result in failure.
A role doesn't have to be "I can take hits", "I can deal damage", "I can heal your damage".
A role can be "I can escort the resource dolyak", "I can defend the outpost", "I can man the siege weapons", "I can scout".
Why do computer games that can model certain aspects of the physical world have to use systems that P&P RPGs and card games (example, Lord of the Rings LCG) that cannot model the physical world?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I want a game with GW2 open world questing and individual combat (I prefer the movement heavy GW2 combat) combined with the "team mob" coherence and AI of GW1.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.
It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....
And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.
It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....
Seems to me that a non-trinity game the relies so heavey on DPS is bad mob AI. More a kin to trinity game with strickly a tank and spank mob AI which is also bad design. GW2 could make it's combat more complex and in small areas does. The thing is it isn't just one aspect of an MMO that makes it superior. There are certainly plenty of trinity games that are overly simplistic.
And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.
It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....
Seems to me that a non-trinity game the relies so heavey on DPS is bad mob AI. More a kin to trinity game with strickly a tank and spank mob AI which is also bad design. GW2 could make it's combat more complex and in small areas does. The thing is it isn't just one aspect of an MMO that makes it superior. There are certainly plenty of trinity games that are overly simplistic.
Yeah, but all I am saying is that I find that there is no better alternative for MMO games than the trinity. I have not found one game that does not use it that I find fun. Roles are good. They keep everything somewhat orderly. And maybe it is bad mob AI but that really has not evolved much either.
I can't think of one MMO game where the mobs are not pretty much mindless obstacles.
The holy trinity isn't a combat mechanic. It's a player adaptation to the simple threat-table enemy behavior that devs just love to stick into their MMOs. When the trinity finally goes, I'll be happy about it because it'll mean that the lazy fucks have finally started putting meaningful resources into their enemy behavior.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Did you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
Originally posted by sketocafe The holy trinity isn't a combat mechanic. It's a player adaptation to the simple threat-table enemy behavior that devs just love to stick into their MMOs. When the trinity finally goes, I'll be happy about it because it'll mean that the lazy fucks have finally started putting meaningful resources into their enemy behavior.
Its not player adaptation if its rooted in combat system. Yes, its lazy way for developers because 75% of encounter is already done before you even start making them. But that translates into borefest in the long run, and you are required to repeat them a lot in the long run. Usually when they design an encounter it stays exactly same until game shuts down.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.
Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.
Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.
Pressing 1? Hahaha That is what you do with the majority of the content in GW2. Zerg, spam, rez! I am not bashing GW2s combat as it has complexity. They just have not made adequate content for it until very recently. There is a whole lot more to playing healer than pressing a single button, but again you prove my point in that you have no real concept of the trinity because you have never played it on more than a casual level. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that both systems serve their purpose and appeal to different folks.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.
It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....
Zerker gear is not the king for Tequatl, triple wurm or places like dry top and silverwastes.
In fact zerker gear is not even the best for some of the fractals, that simply are ignored by the meta community since zerker gear can't do them in an efficient manner.
But even more interesting is the fact that my support guardian or mesmer can be using zerker gear because support in GW2 doesn't rely on the gear.
Anet is changing defiant and how conditions stack with HoT.
That plus the already mentioned changes seen in silverwastes and dry top can lead to a significantly different game where gear and CC usage is concerned.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by sketocafe The holy trinity isn't a combat mechanic. It's a player adaptation to the simple threat-table enemy behavior that devs just love to stick into their MMOs. When the trinity finally goes, I'll be happy about it because it'll mean that the lazy fucks have finally started putting meaningful resources into their enemy behavior.
Actually holy trinity is not a player adaptation but rather is a developer creation simply because it is easier than more advanced AI and physics.
It is like roll to hit vs aiming. Or single hit boxes vs many small hit boxes.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.
Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.
Pressing 1? Hahaha That is what you do with the majority of the content in GW2. Zerg, spam, rez! I am not bashing GW2s combat as it has complexity. They just have not made adequate content for it until very recently. There is a whole lot more to playing healer than pressing a single button, but again you prove my point in that you have no real concept of the trinity because you have never played it on more than a casual level. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that both systems serve their purpose and appeal to different folks.
And you still havent answered a simple question:
What do everyone/anyone else need to do in trinity game to get healed except healer pressing 1 button.
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
Players are playing their own minigames, but the decisions they're making are heavily reliant on the performance of their teammates, which creates dynamic gameplay where the ideal rotation is never quite the same from attempt to attempt (and certainly from boss to boss things vary significantly.)
Your definition of "severely limited" seems broken. Do you also feel fighting games are severely limited for their inability to design FPS-like fights or MMORPG-like fights? A game picks a direction and runs with it. Trinity games have created literally hundreds of distinct raid/dungeon bosses. And yes, there are also a handful of non-trinity fights in these games (like Flame Leviathan) in spite of how ridiculous your statement is.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
Players are playing their own minigames, but the decisions they're making are heavily reliant on the performance of their teammates, which creates dynamic gameplay where the ideal rotation is never quite the same from attempt to attempt (and certainly from boss to boss things vary significantly.)
Your definition of "severely limited" seems broken. Do you also feel fighting games are severely limited for their inability to design FPS-like fights or MMORPG-like fights? A game picks a direction and runs with it. Trinity games have created literally hundreds of distinct raid/dungeon bosses. And yes, there are also a handful of non-trinity fights in these games (like Flame Leviathan) in spite of how ridiculous your statement is.
actually theres only 2 states and 2 decisions to make: go and stop. Any other decisions are made by encounter design and not reliant on trinity.
Your attempt of using argument that if you completely ignore your core game combat mechanics you can design non trinity encouters as some kind of reassurance is broken. You cannot use non trinity design by using trinity combat system (we are talking about challenging content here, not content that can just ignore any kind of combat system, popularly called "zerging the stuff")
And whats exactly "FPS-like fight" and "MMO like fight"? Neither of those are inherenty trinity or not trinity systems. They are DELIBERATELY made trinity or non trinity. And pnp systems (at least notable ones) DIDNT use trinity, thats MMOs invention as a way to SIMPLIFY combat, nothing more. There was NO trinity before MMOs, because trinity inherently doesnt make sense in the first place.
actually theres only 2 states and 2 decisions to make: go and stop. Any other decisions are made by encounter design and not reliant on trinity.
Your attempt of using argument that if you completely ignore your core game combat mechanics you can design non trinity encouters as some kind of reassurance is broken. You cannot use non trinity design by using trinity combat system (we are talking about challenging content here, not content that can just ignore any kind of combat system, popularly called "zerging the stuff")
And whats exactly "FPS-like fight" and "MMO like fight"? Neither of those are inherenty trinity or not trinity systems. They are DELIBERATELY made trinity or non trinity. And pnp systems (at least notable ones) DIDNT use trinity, thats MMOs invention as a way to SIMPLIFY combat, nothing more. There was NO trinity before MMOs, because trinity inherently doesnt make sense in the first place.
Is this why we can't have nice things?
I was going to attempt to take this post apart and show its numerous fallacies, but I think I'd rather count carpet strands.
Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.
TO put it all into chess:
GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played
FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.
Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)
You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters
He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.
the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.
And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
Didi you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.
Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.
Pressing 1? Hahaha That is what you do with the majority of the content in GW2. Zerg, spam, rez! I am not bashing GW2s combat as it has complexity. They just have not made adequate content for it until very recently. There is a whole lot more to playing healer than pressing a single button, but again you prove my point in that you have no real concept of the trinity because you have never played it on more than a casual level. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that both systems serve their purpose and appeal to different folks.
And you still havent answered a simple question:
What do everyone/anyone else need to do in trinity game to get healed except healer pressing 1 button.
Manage resources, determine who to heal, which heal to use and when, watch for chances to buff or perform a cleanse, react to the inevitable mistakes by the team members or DPS, move and react to the bosses actions....... Yep, that entails a whole lot more than just pushing 1...... Again, it is obvious that you never did any real raiding or heroic dungeons or you wouldn't have that opinion. That is why so many people disagree with you..... but then you knew they would, and you most likely have other motives for baiting......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Comments
I could not have said this better myself.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
you cannot go more simple than trinity, so no, there will never be something "better" for YOU.
And thats fine. But what trinity isnt: it isnt superior, its inferior.
Didn't see that one coming.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm pretty sure you didnt try 99% of all korean mmo, not even 10%. Many popular korean games allow trinity in some form and dedicated players use it to maximize effectiveness.
Trinity is easier to balance and encourages social activity but lacks creativity. Strict non-trinity design is either "everyone is same but looks different" or impossible to balance within reasonable time/budget.
No wonder any worthy developer mixes both ways. Most common example would be "hybrid is self-sufficient but excels at nothing, narrow specialized guy depends on proper party but godlike in his role if used right"
MMORPG genre is being rethought now, devs try new stuff in many directions so in the end even if their games fail we still get some data. More data - easier to make game where any solo player and any kind of party will have place and make sense.
As for now, play classic mmos with your beloved trinity and leave "twitch is an only skill" people to their toys.
Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP. They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)
Each boss is a puzzle. Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.
You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity. We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset. The disticnt bosses would go on and on. A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Non holy trinity mechanics do not diminish the importance of the group - they diminish the importance of certain roles fullfiled by a single individual that the holy trinity glorify.
All MMORPGs have a giant metric ton of solo play - the open world questing is all solo.
The holy trinity only exist in the confines of certain instances or activities that are the minority of the gameplay.
And of course there are alternatives to that.
Look at Tequatl or the Triple Wurm encounters or the Silverwastes in GW2 - there are multiple roles to be filled or otherwise result in failure.
A role doesn't have to be "I can take hits", "I can deal damage", "I can heal your damage".
A role can be "I can escort the resource dolyak", "I can defend the outpost", "I can man the siege weapons", "I can scout".
Why do computer games that can model certain aspects of the physical world have to use systems that P&P RPGs and card games (example, Lord of the Rings LCG) that cannot model the physical world?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I want a game with GW2 open world questing and individual combat (I prefer the movement heavy GW2 combat) combined with the "team mob" coherence and AI of GW1.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I agree, there have been no good alternatives.
And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.
It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....
Seems to me that a non-trinity game the relies so heavey on DPS is bad mob AI. More a kin to trinity game with strickly a tank and spank mob AI which is also bad design. GW2 could make it's combat more complex and in small areas does. The thing is it isn't just one aspect of an MMO that makes it superior. There are certainly plenty of trinity games that are overly simplistic.
Yeah, but all I am saying is that I find that there is no better alternative for MMO games than the trinity. I have not found one game that does not use it that I find fun. Roles are good. They keep everything somewhat orderly. And maybe it is bad mob AI but that really has not evolved much either.
I can't think of one MMO game where the mobs are not pretty much mindless obstacles.
Did you even listened to video you linked?
Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.
Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.
You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.
Its not player adaptation if its rooted in combat system. Yes, its lazy way for developers because 75% of encounter is already done before you even start making them. But that translates into borefest in the long run, and you are required to repeat them a lot in the long run. Usually when they design an encounter it stays exactly same until game shuts down.
I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Uh huh.
GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.
OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.
You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.
Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.
Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.
Pressing 1? Hahaha That is what you do with the majority of the content in GW2. Zerg, spam, rez! I am not bashing GW2s combat as it has complexity. They just have not made adequate content for it until very recently. There is a whole lot more to playing healer than pressing a single button, but again you prove my point in that you have no real concept of the trinity because you have never played it on more than a casual level. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that both systems serve their purpose and appeal to different folks.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Zerker gear is not the king for Tequatl, triple wurm or places like dry top and silverwastes.
In fact zerker gear is not even the best for some of the fractals, that simply are ignored by the meta community since zerker gear can't do them in an efficient manner.
But even more interesting is the fact that my support guardian or mesmer can be using zerker gear because support in GW2 doesn't rely on the gear.
Anet is changing defiant and how conditions stack with HoT.
That plus the already mentioned changes seen in silverwastes and dry top can lead to a significantly different game where gear and CC usage is concerned.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Actually holy trinity is not a player adaptation but rather is a developer creation simply because it is easier than more advanced AI and physics.
It is like roll to hit vs aiming. Or single hit boxes vs many small hit boxes.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
And you still havent answered a simple question:
What do everyone/anyone else need to do in trinity game to get healed except healer pressing 1 button.
Players are playing their own minigames, but the decisions they're making are heavily reliant on the performance of their teammates, which creates dynamic gameplay where the ideal rotation is never quite the same from attempt to attempt (and certainly from boss to boss things vary significantly.)
Your definition of "severely limited" seems broken. Do you also feel fighting games are severely limited for their inability to design FPS-like fights or MMORPG-like fights? A game picks a direction and runs with it. Trinity games have created literally hundreds of distinct raid/dungeon bosses. And yes, there are also a handful of non-trinity fights in these games (like Flame Leviathan) in spite of how ridiculous your statement is.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
actually theres only 2 states and 2 decisions to make: go and stop. Any other decisions are made by encounter design and not reliant on trinity.
Your attempt of using argument that if you completely ignore your core game combat mechanics you can design non trinity encouters as some kind of reassurance is broken. You cannot use non trinity design by using trinity combat system (we are talking about challenging content here, not content that can just ignore any kind of combat system, popularly called "zerging the stuff")
And whats exactly "FPS-like fight" and "MMO like fight"? Neither of those are inherenty trinity or not trinity systems. They are DELIBERATELY made trinity or non trinity. And pnp systems (at least notable ones) DIDNT use trinity, thats MMOs invention as a way to SIMPLIFY combat, nothing more. There was NO trinity before MMOs, because trinity inherently doesnt make sense in the first place.
Is this why we can't have nice things?
I was going to attempt to take this post apart and show its numerous fallacies, but I think I'd rather count carpet strands.
Manage resources, determine who to heal, which heal to use and when, watch for chances to buff or perform a cleanse, react to the inevitable mistakes by the team members or DPS, move and react to the bosses actions....... Yep, that entails a whole lot more than just pushing 1...... Again, it is obvious that you never did any real raiding or heroic dungeons or you wouldn't have that opinion. That is why so many people disagree with you..... but then you knew they would, and you most likely have other motives for baiting......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?