I completely agree with you. Guild Wars 2 will always need to be something it never will be to me. I enjoy specializing in healing. It's what i choose to do when i play MMO's. While 90% of GW2 is exactly what I've always wanted, not being able to focus and heal is what will always frustrate me about what i feel is a missed opportunity for the game to dominate the market.
I hear these arguments that no trinity, specifically in this game, is superior in every way, yet it boils down to a bunch of dps not wanting to rely on tanks or heals. Guess they got tired of 45 minute queues in whatever games they came from. I love the idea of people being able to specialize in roles and having a place in the game. No matter how much these folks try to tell me that there ARE specializations and roles, it won't matter, because all that matters in GW2 is Zerker gear groups or go home. That's all the game is.
But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine.
Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc). The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity. Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it. And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff. I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks. People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.
People zerg stuff in tirnity games.
Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.
People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.
Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.
Yes, anything can be zerged, but you fail to understand in the context that it's being used.. Zerging is just basically rushing the mob with numbers will little to no strategy or skill.. I've played GW2 and Tera of late and that is exactly how they play.. Both are action games that focus on complete solo ability.. I wouldn't call trinity combat lazy.. Any combat can be lazy if it's designed to be so.. I can play Call of Duty on "recruit" mode and just mindlessly shoot my way through the game without a care in the world.. Mobs are slow and inaccurate.. However, if I crank it up, I'll end up dying often from head shots 200m away.. Same game, same mechanics..
Tera is a good example of that.. Mobs are slow to charge or attack me.. For crying out loud, I have the mob 1/2 dead before it even gets ONE chance to hit me, and even then it "telegraphs" it's move giving me plenty of time to move out of the way.. Tera is lazier and easier then playing Call of Duty on "recruit" mode.. LOL However, I wouldn't use WoW as the poster child for good role combat either.. The overuse of "taunt" is just insanely borning, and turns the world into "AOE" combat which isn't any better then zergfest you see in GW2 or Tera..
But as I have preached about for years.. I want to see a game that allows for solo/group combat in the open world, and gives us classes that fullfill over a DOZEN different roles.. But that isn't going to happen until we start ignoring PvP balance in a PvE game..
Thanks for agreeing with me on zerg thing, if it can be zerged it will be zerged.
And TERA is aslo not good system, its bad mix of old and new. "AoEfest" happened in EVERY game, again, trinity or no trinity.
And las, that can only happen if yu ditch trinity and make everyone be everything. And PvP balance is important, in PvE only thing that matters is "if you can beat it with certain stuff you want it to be beaten" because of uber stupid opponents. Devs wont make PvE on PvP level for obvious reasons - only 1% could compete (unless you again dumb mobs to act as bads)
And, not just for you, using things that are not related to combat system as proof just shows you dont really understand what combat system is, and what combat system isnt.
PvP is no different. Disparities in Character Level, Class (some being OP/IMBA or UP), Gear Quality, etc. all throw PvP balance out of whack.
Which is why PvP is such a problem, especially in games with systems designed for PvE.
Balancing PvP isn't just a matter of saying "there you go, go PvP and have fun." The entire game systems in games like EQ were designed around PvMonster combat. Wizards were 1 shotting people with Mana Burn because, while the damage and cooldown was completely justified vs. MOBs with high health pools who did a ton of damage, it was completely out of whack against players with pitiful health pools who died the minute it hit them.
A lot of PvE games bold PvP on, and it causes all sorts of issues. WoW has tons of class balance issues thanks to PvP, and they still haven't nailed it yet.
We have a lot of MOBAs masquerading as MMORPGs. GW2 isn't really an MMORPG in the vein of EQ2, WoW, and other games. It's more of a MOBA. The game's class and combat systems were designed first and foremost for eSport PvP. That's why the PvE content in that game is largely an afterthought and that's why it has its own dedicated niche of players - the rest play it because... cheap is cheap and you get what you paid for.
Even without the Trinity, those games have severe character development, replayability (very repetitive gameplay with shallow content to exacerbate it), and end game PvE content issues. They have given up the Trinity as a selling point, but it has completely hamstrung them in other ways.
Also, you're argument is extremely weak. Games designed like GW2 are more prone to zerging that Trinity MMORPG. In fact, GW2 actively encourages zerging. It's how people do all the public events. There is no support. It's just a huge mass of people mashing buttons and throwing down AoE pads with no thought whatsoever put into it.
Another reason why many people don't like Action Combat system is because they are more suitable to console/controller play than to a PC. We have things like MMO Mice and Gamepads that make playing games with more skill bars trivial these days. But the way the Active Blocking and dodging works plays a lot better on a controller. I guarantee you TESO will play better on consoles than on PC/Mac when it launches. The controls in that game were basically designed for that and the developers just used PC games as a way to cash in early while they finish developing the console releases.
Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.
TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system. Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.
Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.
Oh *sigh* And that is why when discussing the trinity system, we speak of interdependence and playstyle, while the other side of the argument is every character can do everything. But it does involve the combat system and how it is implemented, just a different aspect of it from the "action vs traditional" debates. So yeah, it is understood.
Talking about trinity when you mean interdependence is misleading. Depending on where you come from trinity specifically means either the EQ style Tank-Heal-Control or the more popular one Tank-Heal-DPS. Both rely on aggro manipulation by taunts. Taunts are the key to both styles of trinity.
When people come out against trinity system, likely they mean they don't like the tank 'n' spank style combat encounters both systems use. That is why it doesn't matter to them which trinity specifically we are talking about.
The other side of the argument is not about how every character should do everything. Its about what those combat roles should be or could be instead. The trinity is the predominant form to do combat roles in MMORPGs, but not the only one. MMORPGs with action combat do have roles (any game with any level of specialization has roles), they're just not necessarily the trinity ones.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Trinity isn't a combat system, that's the thing you dipshits don't seem to understand.
TESO has ACTION COMBAT, but it also has a trinity system. Healers, Tanks, and DPS Classes.
Combat Systems aren't mutually exclusive with whether or not you have a Trinity System.
Oh *sigh* And that is why when discussing the trinity system, we speak of interdependence and playstyle, while the other side of the argument is every character can do everything. But it does involve the combat system and how it is implemented, just a different aspect of it from the "action vs traditional" debates. So yeah, it is understood.
No, it doesn't. The Combat System has NOTHING to do with whether or not you have Trinity or Not. The only thing that changes, is encounter designs. You design based on how the group would conceivably engage the encounter. GW2 can add in a Healer and Tank and guess what, nothing about their combat system would need to be changed - literally. However, the encounter design in the game would need to be revamped across the board to accommodate it, since the content is now designed for the lack of those roles.
That's how you balance damage, healing. It's how you design which encounters go where (i.e. you don't make it a full zone of single pulls, you want mobs that come as a UNIT to let AoE damage classes contribute more, or give CC classes an opportunity to contribute more).
But Trinity or No Trinity has nothing to do with the combat system. The Taunt Mechanic that Tank Classes have do not define a combat system. Even in Non-Trinity Games like GW2 you have classes which can get and hold threat off of full-bore DPSers.
What Trinity or NO TRINITY affects most is encounter design and how GROUPS play is structured.
It's a way to structure groups, delegate responsibilities in groups, and design & balance content.
So, I don't understand why people keep referring to Trinity as a combat system. It has nothing to do with the actual combat system, and the combat system doesn't have to be designed based on the trinity being there. Dodge isn't in GW2 solely because there are no healers. Lol. Even in Trinity Games, classes have been given Self Heals, Damage Prevents, or Damage Absorbs so even that has really not much to do with Trinity, IMO. DPS classes could also Rez in Trinity Games (Necromancers in EQ, EQ2; Warlocks in WoW, etc.). UTILITY is how you differentiate DPS classes outside of their main roles (doing damage) and give reason to prefer one over another in certain situations (theoretically; some games got the balance wrong on utility, as is usually prone to happening).
What people in games like GW2 want is a game full of Hybrid classes, which makes sense because most of these people care more about PvP than the average MMORPG player - especially those that tend to dislike the newer games. Yes, that's a great idea for a PvP-focused MOBA because those games are balanced against a PvP system, tend to feature very fast shallow & solo-oriented leveling experienced , and that utility is great for PvP. However, it's a HORRIBLE idea for a PvE game.
While "Take the Player, not the Class" is often a novel idea; sometimes it isn't and shouldn't be that cut and dry.
As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat. This is actually less strategic and less difficult.
The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.
That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many. Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly. It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.
These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.
If believe raids in EQ, post PoP, could be beaten by spamming abilities, you are sadly mistaken.
Post PoP, many raids took a great deal of coordination to beat. Many of them also included fail conditions that even a single player stepping out of line would break, including dealing too much DPS.
Yeah, you couldn't zerg anymore after they added instances, right?
But instances are evil and kill the community, right?
Oops...
Zerging in EQ Raids didn't work in PoP or otherwise. Your guild had to be organized otherwise your tanks died and then your DPS and Healers got Summoned one by one and killed.
Did you ever raid in a competitive guild in EQ?
You couldn't even Zerg PoTime. PoTime didn't really get "easy" until OoW came out and people got gear form there because half the guilds in the game were too incompetent to beat Plane of Earth to get keyed.
In GoD the game was seriously challenging and Uqua on release was completely overtuned to the point that some guilds quit. That's how hard it was. I think there was one guild that beat Uqua before it was nerfed, and only a handful beat Tacvi before OoW launched.
A lot of groups couldn't even get past Vxed and Tipt without carries because they either weren't good enough or their gear was too bad to get through it (didn't even have Elemental sets).
Even before PoP, with Dragons like Gorenaire and Severilous, those MOBs required you to be under their belly to damage them and they did AoE Fears and such with very large ranges. It was incredibly hard to zerg them. The game mechanics and encounter designs were very punishing to people who tried to employ those tactics. That is why a lot of people didn't even try to PUG them when they were up.
EQ had a ton of Open World Raid zones before GoD. Zones like Plane of Time and Elemental Planes were not instanced. They added instancing in GoD going forwards because it was good for Quality of Life in the game. Guilds got tired of being locked out of Raids because some other guild was killing it on European Time on Spawn, and their players didn't want to pull All nighters in the boss room waiting for it to spawn. There were a lot of high profile disputes over open world Raid Bosses (Emp Ssra, AHR, etc.). One time a GM put up a timer in the zone and anyone from our guild or the other guild who didn't Gate out was banned on site because they were tired of trying to mediate the situation (Guild KSing and Training each other trying to get the kill, etc.).
As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat. This is actually less strategic and less difficult.
The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.
That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many. Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly. It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.
These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.
All of Guild Wars 2 Dungeons are like that. I can log in right now and Twitch Stream some and it wouldn't be much different. They're all like that.
Also, you're making it seem like WoW is the only Trinity-based MMORPG out there, when there are many. Most people don't notice that in WoW because that game is a complete raid grind at this point. A lot of people don't really do much grouping for instance/dungeons and when they do they're compete faceroll at this point in the game as the heroics are designed for players with iLevel 610 or so average across their gear. I haven't played WoW in months and I'm i660+ there. The DPS players (even tanks and healers) brings completely overpowers anything but the Challenge Mode dungeon which scales your gear down.
Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure you have never done a Challenge Mode dungeon in WoW because that generalization you wrote is completely asinine compared to what's required to complete them. If you tried doing what you wrote, you probably wouldn't even get past the second trash pack.
saying the trinity is superior merely implies that the person can't think for themselves. It's a confined mode of play used for people who can't actually collaborate with other players and self sacrifice for the benefit of the group. It seems perfect for the individual who plays a more open gamestyle then claims it's nothing but dps, but to say it's actually better is simply false. The forced trinity guides people into a direction that limits the need for a player to think, communicate, and actually try to accomplish the task at hand.
Tell me this; What actually sounds more like a game?
1) you stand at a fork in the road, and there are three paths you can choose from. Which do you take?
or
2) you stand at a fork in the road, and you are wearing a blue shirt so you take the road with the blue line down it.
notice the lack of a question mark at the end of 2?
If those were the only choices in the game, you'd have a point. They aren't the only choices.
When I work on games I'm a designer working alongside programmers and artists. The fact that we each have specialized roles doesn't mean nobody dips into other roles. It also doesn't remove the challenge of making a game. It just means the challenging decisions are specifically related to each worker's discipline, rather than the other set of decisions which would exist if we were a random mob of generalists (which really wouldn't work well.)
Or was your example meant to illustrate exactly that trait of specialist vs. generalist systems?
In specialist (trinity) games, you choose a specialization (a road to go down.)
In generalist games, there is only one road.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat. This is actually less strategic and less difficult.
The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.
That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many. Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly. It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.
These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.
All of Guild Wars 2 Dungeons are like that. I can log in right now and Twitch Stream some and it wouldn't be much different. They're all like that.
Also, you're making it seem like WoW is the only Trinity-based MMORPG out there, when there are many. Most people don't notice that in WoW because that game is a complete raid grind at this point. A lot of people don't really do much grouping for instance/dungeons and when they do they're compete faceroll at this point in the game as the heroics are designed for players with iLevel 610 or so average across their gear. I haven't played WoW in months and I'm i660+ there. The DPS players (even tanks and healers) brings completely overpowers anything but the Challenge Mode dungeon which scales your gear down.
Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure you have never done a Challenge Mode dungeon in WoW because that generalization you wrote is completely asinine compared to what's required to complete them. If you tried doing what you wrote, you probably wouldn't even get past the second trash pack.
I never mentioned WoW. It's pretty much standard trinity gameplay in almost every MMO though.
It's rote memorization of encounters. Pull boss, position him, hold threat, dps hits him, healer heals. From dungeon to raid, it's the same thing. It's a lot more static.
Even in a game like Tera, which is action combat, and trinity gameplay, it's still the same.
It really depends on the encounters though, because GW2 dungeons suffer from the zerker meta in dungeons, but newer encounters past these are vastly different.
Non-trinity gameplay shouldn't be dismissed though, because of one game that did it terribly in their dungeons.
But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine.
I didn't read passed the first page cause this ^
Speaking of "this," collision detection, smart AI, skill-based and turn-based system can all be implemented in a game that also happens to have the trinity system. I think "this" needs to be rethunked a tad.
Collision detection negates a good portion of taunt. A smart mob won't waste time attacking the trinity tank because neenerneener spells aren't a threat - enemies that cause damage are. Is there a character skill-based system that uses taunt? That was a seroius question. I don't know. vov Player skill-based systems often use position, CD and other systems. Turn-based combat also normally rely on prediction and the other systems listed above, and rarely taunt.
No one said they can't possibly work in conjunction with trinity. These systems can, however, be used as alternative systems, which is all I stated. But, we know where this is headed. The problem is that I simply can't comprehend your brilliance, right?
Changing your name, changing your text color, and then deleting almost your entire post history (holy cow, how long did that take?!?!?!) isn't going to change anything if you're just going to go down the same road in each thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.
My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.
It took 300+ posts, but it looks like people on each side of this argument are finally realizing that they're simply starting from two different positions.
To the pro-trinity, this is about defined roles.
To the anti-trinity, this is about taunt-like aggro manipulation.
Can we please get to the constructive part of this debate, now?
P.S. Of course I'm oversimplifying this, because that's how we're (possibly) gonna get somewhere. All the cross-overs to the "hardcore/punishing game" and the "fast pace/twitch game" topics are actually OFF topic.
My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.
If you want to link a more strategic video of a trinity video, go ahead. There isn't any zerg in this video. I don't think you know the difference between zerg and coordination? As you can see they stack for a reason, to buff others and heal others. Zerg is mindlessly charging in without coordination, without any strategy or thought.
edit: My point is, non-trinity gameplay isn't always about zerging. It requires strategy too, but only if the encounters are designed right. Sadly, GW2 dungeons were designed very badly, and people still think this is how all non-trinity combat is.
I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.
So maybe you should actually play GW2. And understand how awesome the following video is. GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.
My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.
Thats awesome, could you link something "non zergy" so we can proclaim it "zergy" rofl
Look at this zerg for instance. Its so zergy that its hilarious. Along with half of them being AFK.
Comments
I just don't see the appeal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcX9ffcaH34
It's... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS.... DPS.... dodge.... rez.... DPS... DPS.... profit?
Pretty much how I see most non-trinity games - a messy clusterfuck of people playing next to eachother and not with eachother.
I completely agree with you. Guild Wars 2 will always need to be something it never will be to me. I enjoy specializing in healing. It's what i choose to do when i play MMO's. While 90% of GW2 is exactly what I've always wanted, not being able to focus and heal is what will always frustrate me about what i feel is a missed opportunity for the game to dominate the market.
I hear these arguments that no trinity, specifically in this game, is superior in every way, yet it boils down to a bunch of dps not wanting to rely on tanks or heals. Guess they got tired of 45 minute queues in whatever games they came from. I love the idea of people being able to specialize in roles and having a place in the game. No matter how much these folks try to tell me that there ARE specializations and roles, it won't matter, because all that matters in GW2 is Zerker gear groups or go home. That's all the game is.
PvP is no different. Disparities in Character Level, Class (some being OP/IMBA or UP), Gear Quality, etc. all throw PvP balance out of whack.
Which is why PvP is such a problem, especially in games with systems designed for PvE.
Balancing PvP isn't just a matter of saying "there you go, go PvP and have fun." The entire game systems in games like EQ were designed around PvMonster combat. Wizards were 1 shotting people with Mana Burn because, while the damage and cooldown was completely justified vs. MOBs with high health pools who did a ton of damage, it was completely out of whack against players with pitiful health pools who died the minute it hit them.
A lot of PvE games bold PvP on, and it causes all sorts of issues. WoW has tons of class balance issues thanks to PvP, and they still haven't nailed it yet.
We have a lot of MOBAs masquerading as MMORPGs. GW2 isn't really an MMORPG in the vein of EQ2, WoW, and other games. It's more of a MOBA. The game's class and combat systems were designed first and foremost for eSport PvP. That's why the PvE content in that game is largely an afterthought and that's why it has its own dedicated niche of players - the rest play it because... cheap is cheap and you get what you paid for.
Even without the Trinity, those games have severe character development, replayability (very repetitive gameplay with shallow content to exacerbate it), and end game PvE content issues. They have given up the Trinity as a selling point, but it has completely hamstrung them in other ways.
Also, you're argument is extremely weak. Games designed like GW2 are more prone to zerging that Trinity MMORPG. In fact, GW2 actively encourages zerging. It's how people do all the public events. There is no support. It's just a huge mass of people mashing buttons and throwing down AoE pads with no thought whatsoever put into it.
Another reason why many people don't like Action Combat system is because they are more suitable to console/controller play than to a PC. We have things like MMO Mice and Gamepads that make playing games with more skill bars trivial these days. But the way the Active Blocking and dodging works plays a lot better on a controller. I guarantee you TESO will play better on consoles than on PC/Mac when it launches. The controls in that game were basically designed for that and the developers just used PC games as a way to cash in early while they finish developing the console releases.
Talking about trinity when you mean interdependence is misleading. Depending on where you come from trinity specifically means either the EQ style Tank-Heal-Control or the more popular one Tank-Heal-DPS. Both rely on aggro manipulation by taunts. Taunts are the key to both styles of trinity.
When people come out against trinity system, likely they mean they don't like the tank 'n' spank style combat encounters both systems use. That is why it doesn't matter to them which trinity specifically we are talking about.
The other side of the argument is not about how every character should do everything. Its about what those combat roles should be or could be instead. The trinity is the predominant form to do combat roles in MMORPGs, but not the only one. MMORPGs with action combat do have roles (any game with any level of specialization has roles), they're just not necessarily the trinity ones.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No, it doesn't. The Combat System has NOTHING to do with whether or not you have Trinity or Not. The only thing that changes, is encounter designs. You design based on how the group would conceivably engage the encounter. GW2 can add in a Healer and Tank and guess what, nothing about their combat system would need to be changed - literally. However, the encounter design in the game would need to be revamped across the board to accommodate it, since the content is now designed for the lack of those roles.
That's how you balance damage, healing. It's how you design which encounters go where (i.e. you don't make it a full zone of single pulls, you want mobs that come as a UNIT to let AoE damage classes contribute more, or give CC classes an opportunity to contribute more).
But Trinity or No Trinity has nothing to do with the combat system. The Taunt Mechanic that Tank Classes have do not define a combat system. Even in Non-Trinity Games like GW2 you have classes which can get and hold threat off of full-bore DPSers.
What Trinity or NO TRINITY affects most is encounter design and how GROUPS play is structured.
It's a way to structure groups, delegate responsibilities in groups, and design & balance content.
So, I don't understand why people keep referring to Trinity as a combat system. It has nothing to do with the actual combat system, and the combat system doesn't have to be designed based on the trinity being there. Dodge isn't in GW2 solely because there are no healers. Lol. Even in Trinity Games, classes have been given Self Heals, Damage Prevents, or Damage Absorbs so even that has really not much to do with Trinity, IMO. DPS classes could also Rez in Trinity Games (Necromancers in EQ, EQ2; Warlocks in WoW, etc.). UTILITY is how you differentiate DPS classes outside of their main roles (doing damage) and give reason to prefer one over another in certain situations (theoretically; some games got the balance wrong on utility, as is usually prone to happening).
What people in games like GW2 want is a game full of Hybrid classes, which makes sense because most of these people care more about PvP than the average MMORPG player - especially those that tend to dislike the newer games. Yes, that's a great idea for a PvP-focused MOBA because those games are balanced against a PvP system, tend to feature very fast shallow & solo-oriented leveling experienced , and that utility is great for PvP. However, it's a HORRIBLE idea for a PvE game.
While "Take the Player, not the Class" is often a novel idea; sometimes it isn't and shouldn't be that cut and dry.
As opposed to... position mob... dps... heal tank... move out of circles, rinse and repeat. This is actually less strategic and less difficult.
The only real difference between the two systems, is holding threat.
That's also one video of one dungeon encounter, out of many. Granted, GW2 dungeons are designed poorly, but Anet has learned from them and improved their encounters greatly. It's a shame too, because most people like yourself experienced this bad impression, and continue to retread this narrative that all non-trinity gameplay sucks, which isn't true at all.
These fights cannot be zerged, and require moderate to high organization.
Triple Wurm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgeSlob-x3w
Tequatl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC31mGWB9Q
Vinewrath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IXBVPKcKzs
Zerging in EQ Raids didn't work in PoP or otherwise. Your guild had to be organized otherwise your tanks died and then your DPS and Healers got Summoned one by one and killed.
Did you ever raid in a competitive guild in EQ?
You couldn't even Zerg PoTime. PoTime didn't really get "easy" until OoW came out and people got gear form there because half the guilds in the game were too incompetent to beat Plane of Earth to get keyed.
In GoD the game was seriously challenging and Uqua on release was completely overtuned to the point that some guilds quit. That's how hard it was. I think there was one guild that beat Uqua before it was nerfed, and only a handful beat Tacvi before OoW launched.
A lot of groups couldn't even get past Vxed and Tipt without carries because they either weren't good enough or their gear was too bad to get through it (didn't even have Elemental sets).
Even before PoP, with Dragons like Gorenaire and Severilous, those MOBs required you to be under their belly to damage them and they did AoE Fears and such with very large ranges. It was incredibly hard to zerg them. The game mechanics and encounter designs were very punishing to people who tried to employ those tactics. That is why a lot of people didn't even try to PUG them when they were up.
EQ had a ton of Open World Raid zones before GoD. Zones like Plane of Time and Elemental Planes were not instanced. They added instancing in GoD going forwards because it was good for Quality of Life in the game. Guilds got tired of being locked out of Raids because some other guild was killing it on European Time on Spawn, and their players didn't want to pull All nighters in the boss room waiting for it to spawn. There were a lot of high profile disputes over open world Raid Bosses (Emp Ssra, AHR, etc.). One time a GM put up a timer in the zone and anyone from our guild or the other guild who didn't Gate out was banned on site because they were tired of trying to mediate the situation (Guild KSing and Training each other trying to get the kill, etc.).
All of Guild Wars 2 Dungeons are like that. I can log in right now and Twitch Stream some and it wouldn't be much different. They're all like that.
Also, you're making it seem like WoW is the only Trinity-based MMORPG out there, when there are many. Most people don't notice that in WoW because that game is a complete raid grind at this point. A lot of people don't really do much grouping for instance/dungeons and when they do they're compete faceroll at this point in the game as the heroics are designed for players with iLevel 610 or so average across their gear. I haven't played WoW in months and I'm i660+ there. The DPS players (even tanks and healers) brings completely overpowers anything but the Challenge Mode dungeon which scales your gear down.
Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure you have never done a Challenge Mode dungeon in WoW because that generalization you wrote is completely asinine compared to what's required to complete them. If you tried doing what you wrote, you probably wouldn't even get past the second trash pack.
If those were the only choices in the game, you'd have a point. They aren't the only choices.
When I work on games I'm a designer working alongside programmers and artists. The fact that we each have specialized roles doesn't mean nobody dips into other roles. It also doesn't remove the challenge of making a game. It just means the challenging decisions are specifically related to each worker's discipline, rather than the other set of decisions which would exist if we were a random mob of generalists (which really wouldn't work well.)
Or was your example meant to illustrate exactly that trait of specialist vs. generalist systems?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I didn't read passed the first page cause this ^
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I never mentioned WoW. It's pretty much standard trinity gameplay in almost every MMO though.
It's rote memorization of encounters. Pull boss, position him, hold threat, dps hits him, healer heals. From dungeon to raid, it's the same thing. It's a lot more static.
Even in a game like Tera, which is action combat, and trinity gameplay, it's still the same.
It really depends on the encounters though, because GW2 dungeons suffer from the zerker meta in dungeons, but newer encounters past these are vastly different.
Non-trinity gameplay shouldn't be dismissed though, because of one game that did it terribly in their dungeons.
Collision detection negates a good portion of taunt. A smart mob won't waste time attacking the trinity tank because neenerneener spells aren't a threat - enemies that cause damage are. Is there a character skill-based system that uses taunt? That was a seroius question. I don't know. vov Player skill-based systems often use position, CD and other systems. Turn-based combat also normally rely on prediction and the other systems listed above, and rarely taunt.
No one said they can't possibly work in conjunction with trinity. These systems can, however, be used as alternative systems, which is all I stated. But, we know where this is headed. The problem is that I simply can't comprehend your brilliance, right?
Changing your name, changing your text color, and then deleting almost your entire post history (holy cow, how long did that take?!?!?!) isn't going to change anything if you're just going to go down the same road in each thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't believe people even play those games. It's like my friend who never reads books, and she tells me Harry Potter is the best book she ever read. Of course it is, it's the ONLY book you have ever read.
My God, this video is actually worse than the previous one. I always heard GW2 combat was zergy, never imagined it to be this extreme. This amount of spam would make me physically sick.
It took 300+ posts, but it looks like people on each side of this argument are finally realizing that they're simply starting from two different positions.
To the pro-trinity, this is about defined roles.
To the anti-trinity, this is about taunt-like aggro manipulation.
Can we please get to the constructive part of this debate, now?
P.S. Of course I'm oversimplifying this, because that's how we're (possibly) gonna get somewhere. All the cross-overs to the "hardcore/punishing game" and the "fast pace/twitch game" topics are actually OFF topic.
If you want to link a more strategic video of a trinity video, go ahead. There isn't any zerg in this video. I don't think you know the difference between zerg and coordination? As you can see they stack for a reason, to buff others and heal others. Zerg is mindlessly charging in without coordination, without any strategy or thought.
edit: My point is, non-trinity gameplay isn't always about zerging. It requires strategy too, but only if the encounters are designed right. Sadly, GW2 dungeons were designed very badly, and people still think this is how all non-trinity combat is.
This is why GW2 combat is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gMSucIhDTs
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb3FhPCjdSmuMgwHGi0I-iw/videos
So maybe you should actually play GW2. And understand how awesome the following video is. GW2 dungeon is easy to do, hard to master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfsoL2zp8u4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvk0iMIrNXo&feature=youtu.be
Thats awesome, could you link something "non zergy" so we can proclaim it "zergy" rofl
Look at this zerg for instance. Its so zergy that its hilarious. Along with half of them being AFK.
Want more?